Nice jump off the front to accomplish nothing. Stellar tactics.

Nice jump off the front to accomplish nothing. Stellar tactics.

I took the whole set of stage tactics as him and the team making a polite suggestion that he NOT be counted out just yet. In the grand scheme of things, it probably cost him very little energy, and potentially made some people look at his situation a little differently.

Nice jump off the front to accomplish nothing. Stellar tactics.

Don't be so harsh. He got you to post about him right? He'll be the talk of the town tonight and that may have been the goal.

fc

Except having his team attack while a top GC rider was coming back from the Drs car is just lame. He might not be counted out but its a crappy tactic which will hopfully come back to bite him in the a$$.

Except having his team attack while a top GC rider was coming back from the Drs car is just lame. He might not be counted out but its a crappy tactic which will hopfully come back to bite him in the a$$.

Per what I just posted in another thread, Velonews says Moreau was done with his Dr. visit and was just lingering at the back of the group. He could have been at the front and ready for the break, but just wasn't. Poor form on Moreau, not Astana.

I'd say he did a lot today.

#1 It was great entertainment. Most of us were on the edge of our seats for the last hour.
#2 Took Moreau out of the overall.
#3 Wore out a lot of other teams (It is a lot tougher to defend than it is to attack-don't ask me why but it sure is. Morale probably has a lot to do with it).
#4 Gave all the contenders something to think about for the next few days.
#5 Really pleased his sponsor.

Go Vino!!!

Seemed to follow the day's tactics: jack up the pace to reduce devestating breakaways or huge sprinter gains, while punishing the 2nd group a bit more. But, I was only watching the news flashes, not video.

Per what I just posted in another thread, Velonews says Moreau was done with his Dr. visit and was just lingering at the back of the group. He could have been at the front and ready for the break, but just wasn't. Poor form on Moreau, not Astana.

I say we disagree no one decided to gun it the umpteen times Vino dropped back to the Dr car and hung out in the back, bad form.

I stand corrected. LL moved from 9th to 7th. Looks like LL made it past 8th, after all.

Astana did make the right move. No doubt.

I was referencing his jump off the field near the finish. Does he think this is the Champs and his overtaking 5th?:p

Sorry but I'm sure everyone knows he's still around.

It smacks as the same showboating Voeckler was ripped on for a little camera, face time.

I say we disagree no one decided to gun it the umpteen times Vino dropped back to the Dr car and hung out in the back, bad form.

No, but Moreau decided to gun it umpteen times in the Alps when he knew Vino was suffering. Is THAT bad form? I say no (and I also say they wanted his blood for that).

I wouldn't have felt any worse for Vino than I do for Moreau if HE had been farting around in the back of the pack instead of hurrying back up to the front (which is the impression I got of what Moreau was up to--could be wrong). And what if Moreau was sitting on the back of the pack because he was too banged up to get up where he was supposed to be? Do the rest of the contenders wait for him then?

A top 10 position does not mean you won't be attacked. It means you WILL be attacked as soon as you show any weakness (see Vino in the Alps) or poor judgment (Moreau not hustling back to the front--for whatever reason).

It smacks as the same showboating Voeckler was ripped on for a little camera, face time.

Yeah but Vino ain't no stinking cheese eating surender monkey. :rolleyes:

No, but Moreau decided to gun it umpteen times in the Alps when he knew Vino was suffering. Is THAT bad form? I say no (and I also say they wanted his blood for that).

What utter BS attacking while everyone is at the front is racing doing while someone is at the back is a different deal what do you ant every one to do sit down on the side of the road til Vino feels better?

I wouldn't have felt any worse for Vino than I do for Moreau if HE had been farting around in the back of the pack instead of hurrying back up to the front (which is the impression I got of what Moreau was up to--could be wrong). And what if Moreau was sitting on the back of the pack because he was too banged up to get up where he was supposed to be? Do the rest of the contenders wait for him then?

But he wasn't he was taking his time coming back up like Vino has done countless times in the past week.

A top 10 position does not mean you won't be attacked. It means you WILL be attacked as soon as you show any weakness (see Vino in the Alps) or poor judgment (Moreau not hustling back to the front--for whatever reason).

This was bad from in my eyes but not in yours so no big deal we see if differently is all.

Yeah but Vino ain't no stinking cheese eating surender monkey. :rolleyes:

oh rogger. you always make me smile.

Except having his team attack while a top GC rider was coming back from the Drs car is just lame. He might not be counted out but its a crappy tactic which will hopfully come back to bite him in the a$$.

Some of the other teams didn't think it was poor form because they decided to help the 1st echelon pull away. Here is cyclingnews' interpretation of what they saw on their monitor:

15:53 CEST
This morning, Moreau started sixth overall, 3'18 behind maillot jaune Michael Rasmussen.

Vinokourov has now told his team to stop working! He is annoyed that no other teams are riding. So Moreau may have been handed a lifeline.

15:53 CEST
It is up to the other teams now to decide if they want to ride, or if they are happy for a regrouping to take place.

15:58 CEST 129.5km/53km to go
Quickstep - Innergetic and Barloworld are now riding. They clearly want this to keep going. Quickstep will be riding for Boonen and his stage-win chances, while the Barloworld guys have Robert Hunter as their fast man.


As for the OP's take that Vino displayed poor tactics by attacking very late in the race, what can I say other than that's what Vino does. If he sees an opportunity, he goes for it.

oh rogger. you always make me smile.

Just don't pucker your lips at me, okay?

What utter BS attacking while everyone is at the front is racing doing while someone is at the back is a different deal what do you ant every one to do sit down on the side of the road til Vino feels better?

But he wasn't he was taking his time coming back up like Vino has done countless times in the past week.

This was bad from in my eyes but not in yours so no big deal we see if differently is all.

I don't really care what happens to Vino. I'm looking for Sastre, because I'm a pathetic CSC fanboy.

As I said, the way I heard it was that Moreau WAS taking his time coming back up. Could be wrong.

We definitely just won't see eye to eye on this, and I reckon that's how it goes. Cheers.

According to Robbie Hunter (who won the stage):

"There were rumors flying around in the bunch that someone was going to try something, and then a friend came up to me and told me Astana was planning to ride," the South African said.

These things don't happen by accident, and they don't happen spontaneously, either. Seems like Moreau and his teammates dropped the ball, and paid for it. I'm sure someone on his team heard the rumors.

Nasty bit o tactics....Just plain nasty and classic Vino. Just what we love about him. He ripped them a new one.

Just don't pucker your lips at me, okay?
deal.

teh moron, you are living up to your nickname. To compare Vino to Voeckler is terrible. Vino has results, and has in fact won stages by doing exactly what he tried to do today.

Also, is anyone here really thinking that Moreau was a real contender?

I wonder if the even knew CM was in the back of the peleton. It seems it was common knowledge that Astana was going to try something today. They simply gassed it when they turned the corner into the crosswind , just like clock-work.

I think they really didn't care or know who would be caught out in the back, just that their riders were covered at the front and hopefully catch "any" of the GC guys snoozing at the back. They really only caught one so I wouldn't call it that successful.

What utter BS attacking while everyone is at the front is racing doing while someone is at the back is a different deal what do you ant every one to do sit down on the side of the road til Vino feels better?
This was bad from in my eyes but not in yours so no big deal we see if differently is all.

Bad form?...what utter bs that comment is....Do you ride at all? This happens from every Tuesday night club ride to the Pro Tour in the TDF.....that's what it is all about.

Moreau seems to think it was not any worse than when he attacked in the Alps...
"We limited the damage, it could have ended in chaos. What Vino did was not unfair. Settling scores is part of the sport. When I attacked he was not well. Today I was the one who was not that well."

Another...thing...Did anyone catch this? There were Kazak flags flying in the headwind at the point of the attack. A signal? Somebody had gone out and scouted for this. This is good stuff.

Another...thing...Did anyone catch this? There were Kazak flags flying in the headwind at the point of the attack. A signal? Somebody had gone out and scouted for this. This is good stuff.

Were the flags on a grassy knoll ?

Were the flags on a grassy knoll ?

Phil Leggit noticed it too.

Then it must be fact. It was all one giant conspiracy against CM and the wind was in on it too. What timing...

Kazak spies were on the road signaling to Vino that CM was in the back. Tactics in racing are fun to speculate about but in the end when the actual riders tell the story you find out that the stuff most of the time just kind of happens. That is wasn't some grand calculated scheme.

Like when Lance turned around on a climb and gave Jan "The Look" (As reported by Phil also)
we find out after the fact that Lance was just looking over the field and who was there before he attacked.

What utter BS attacking while everyone is at the front is racing doing while someone is at the back is a different deal what do you ant every one to do sit down on the side of the road til Vino feels better?



But he wasn't he was taking his time coming back up like Vino has done countless times in the past week.



This was bad from in my eyes but not in yours so no big deal we see if differently is all.

you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

There were 2 groups split off the back....Moreau was in the middle group...indicating he was in the middle of the Peleton when the attack occured......He just either wasn't paying attention of he hesitated.

This one is totally on Moreau. And his Team manager. This stuff happens every time there is a bad cross wind when the open fields extend for a significant distance.

Try paying attention to the actual race.

Len

Vino won the final stage of the tour last year in the same move he tried near the finish today.
Cancellara won a stage with that move

I fail to see how it was a stupid attempt at winning the race... Vino's certainly not one to sit around waiting for the finish line to come to him

Vino won the final stage of the tour last year in the same move he tried near the finish today.
Cancellara won a stage with that move

I fail to see how it was a stupid attempt at winning the race... Vino's certainly not one to sit around waiting for the finish line to come to him

Well, doing it from 4 km out is not exactly the height of sensibility if he's planning to actually win the stage. From 1 km, maybe, but not 4. I think it went exactly as he intended it to go, and he made whatever point he wanted to make.

teh moron, you are living up to your nickname. To compare Vino to Voeckler is terrible. Vino has results, and has in fact won stages by doing exactly what he tried to do today.

Also, is anyone here really thinking that Moreau was a real contender?

Thanks for the personal swipe.:rolleyes:

When there's no construction to be made. Take a shot at the person, not the statement. You're obviously awesome in any sort of discussion.:rolleyes:

He may have won stages in the past. But this is today. He tried to break off the front, with the sprinter's teams going off. He's still hurt and just ran a hard stage. I wouldn't call that a prudent move 4km out.

I would say it looked like a move to garner some camera time. Voeckler made a move for TV at a crucial point in a stage as well. I'd say there's a similarity.

I think the move was to hint that there might still be some gas in the tanks.

The other contenders have to wonder if he is still a threat. That being said he should have made that sort of statement on Sat. during the ITT.

He may have won stages in the past. But this is today. He tried to break off the front, with the sprinter's teams going off. He's still hurt and just ran a hard stage. I wouldn't call that a prudent move 4km out.


Oh, I think it did something. I think it sent a strong message.

I think it sent the message that he was not just dragged along with the team, but that he still had gas in the tank. Even with 50+ stitches, and an infection in the knee that might go septic, he is STILL a harder man than most in the peloton, so live in fear of what vino will do in a few days when he is feeling a bit better! Biatches!

I think that is why he did it, I think that was the message he was trying to send. I don't think it was a particularly wise thing to do in the larger scheme of things, but the message came across loud and clear.

as far as vino's sprint off the front, my take(s):

a) he wanted it, but legs just arent there
b) he is showing he is better, and y'll better watch out
c) he is faking he is back, so teams will cover him not kloden

either way, levae it to vino to keep this tour interesting, especially on a stage where nobody expects anything tactical to happen.

4 short climbs tomoorw and the TT saturday, follwed by the pyr? man, i cant wait!

I think it sent the message that he was not just dragged along with the team, but that he still had gas in the tank. Even with 50+ stitches, and an infection in the knee that might go septic, he is STILL a harder man than most in the peloton, so live in fear of what vino will do in a few days when he is feeling a bit better! Biatches!
I'm with you, Hoo.

Vino went off the front because that's what he does. You want to complain about it? Try catching him to have a little chat.

JSR

I saw the race today. Moreau was d*cking around at the back for quite a while after he was attended to by the Dr's. Several k's went by before the Astana rocket took off. Vino just eliminated 1 more rider that he needs to be concerned with to get to the podium. Bone-headed move on Moreau's part, brilliant move on Astana's part.

Kazak spies were on the road signaling to Vino that CM was in the back. .

If Astana's plan was to attack in the crosswind then why not determine where to do it? Have your scouts designate the optimum spot. Is that so far fetched?

I don't really give a crap whether Vino's move was smart or strategic. It was a great, emotional display of fire from a guy who just won't quit.

And just think how it must have played at home.

omg.
Could someone get me a pic of John Wayne from True Grit (you know the one, riding his horse with the reins in his teeth while firing his rifle and six-shooter in his hands).

But photo shop Vino's face into it (of course, not the one where he's crying lke a little girl form earlier in le tour) and put a band aid on the Duke's knee while you're at it.:devil:

So Vino ground out his team on a sprinter/breakaway stage. He picked up no time and flogged his team right before the mountains. Yeah, another brilliant move from the "master tactician".



:rolleyes:

Nice Vino. :rolleyes:

Per cyclingnews re: Vino's attack that split the peloton ... "came at the time when Moreau, who had crashed earlier on, was receiving attention from the race doctor..."

Thanks for the personal swipe.:rolleyes:

When there's no construction to be made. Take a shot at the person, not the statement. You're obviously awesome in any sort of discussion.:rolleyes:

He may have won stages in the past. But this is today. He tried to break off the front, with the sprinter's teams going off. He's still hurt and just ran a hard stage. I wouldn't call that a prudent move 4km out.

I would say it looked like a move to garner some camera time. Voeckler made a move for TV at a crucial point in a stage as well. I'd say there's a similarity.

Hey my man, you picked the name, not me. Also, following that admittedly easy swipe, I did address your comments.

Now this next thing isn't directed at teh moreon, but it's funny how people b!tch about Evans or Leipheimer sucking wheel all day, and then complain that when someone attacks (unless he wins the stage).

Moreau seems to think it was not any worse than when he attacked in the Alps...

Well I just watched it and posted in another thread but seems like the discussion is here.

#1 The Astana acceleration was 10 or 15 minutes after Moreau was at the Doc car.

#2 If he was really dicking around at the back, he and a few of his AG2r boys put up a hell of a fight because the first time I saw him the 2nd peloton was already a long way back and he and about 10 other were only a few 100 meters off the back of the bunch and must have been riding there for awhile.

It looked more like he wasn't caught out by the initial acceleration by Astana but then cracked or somehow got tailed off.

Thanks for the personal swipe.:rolleyes:

When there's no construction to be made. Take a shot at the person, not the statement. You're obviously awesome in any sort of discussion.:rolleyes:

He may have won stages in the past. But this is today. He tried to break off the front, with the sprinter's teams going off. He's still hurt and just ran a hard stage. I wouldn't call that a prudent move 4km out.

I would say it looked like a move to garner some camera time. Voeckler made a move for TV at a crucial point in a stage as well. I'd say there's a similarity.

Vino is not going to make a move for TV time...he's always been this way. Attack, attack, attack even when not prudent/puzzling...sometimes it pays off for him.

i like pie.

It smacks as the same showboating Voeckler was ripped on for a little camera, face time.

I hate to be late adding to others' comments, but Voeckler accelerating to win 7th place on a KoM climb and Vino trying to see if he has the power to out power the peloton with 4K to go are hardly comparable. Voeckler couldn't carry Vino's jock strap

I think the move was to hint that there might still be some gas in the tanks.

The other contenders have to wonder if he is still a threat. That being said he should have made that sort of statement on Sat. during the ITT.


Assuming you're right, it doesn't make sense to show your cards to the rest of the peloton. Not smart in my book.

leave it to vino to keep this tour interesting, especially on a stage where nobody expects anything tactical to happen.

4 short climbs tomorrow and the TT Saturday, followed by the pyr? man, i cant wait!

Too bad they only caught one of the contenders out today...would have been that much more interesting if a handful were left behind.

I hope Vino continues riding the crazy train and has the strength to attack with a vengeance in the Pyrenees.

Nice Vino. :rolleyes:

Per cyclingnews re: Vino's attack that split the peloton ... "came at the time when Moreau, who had crashed earlier on, was receiving attention from the race doctor..."

That deuchbag Vino. How dare he spoil the boredom of a flat stage with some stupid attack - that just eliminated Moreau, one of the key 8 or 9 climbing guys.

when we have a flat stage, there should be an agreement - no attacking! especially so close to the finish line. No team attacks on flat stages, either!

Seriously though, does anyone remember a stage maybe in 2005 when almost entire peloton crashed on a wet corner, with like 200m to go, just after Vino attacked?

I don't care if Vino wins the tour anymore, he is my favorite rider. I want riders with balls mixing it up and taking risks like he does - instead of taking it safe.

Any time you have cross-winds, I want teams to take advantage of it. This is a race, dammit!

oh my podium prediction are looking better after every day ( Valverde, Vino and LL ) well 2 out of 3 ain't bad. i also heard the Chicken ( Rasmussen have been kick out of his national team, Denmark ) hmm

So Vino ground out his team on a sprinter/breakaway stage. He picked up no time and flogged his team right before the mountains. Yeah, another brilliant move from the "master tactician".



:rolleyes:

I agree. Vino has never been the sharpest tool in the shed so I doubt he all of the sudden has become the Patten of the peleton.

In the Lance days they used to laugh at his futile attacks. When he wasn't a threat for the overall he got a lot of slack anyways (hey there goes bonehead again, no biggie).Every year we have an unmarked rider or 2 finish high in the GC because of an unchallenged brake-away or 2. Then some stupid team declares him the leader and it's a different story. He's not gonna get away with unmarked brake-aways anymore.

Can't remember which team director said it at last year's Tour (I think), but it went something along the lines of "If you don't shake the tree, no apples will fall out". Of course Vino's shaking was in vain, in hindsight, but I say "shake away" - got me on the edge of the couch.

Wonder if instead Astana are setting up some sort of double-play with Kloden. Make Vino appear the danger man to counter, so Vino attacks, GC contenders chase and wear themselves down, then Klodi counter attacks.

Or, maybe not. Maybe the red mist just descended and he just went for it.

so Vino attacks, GC contenders chase and wear themselves down, then Klodi counter attacks.
.

That would require Kloden to let the strongest riders and his GC rivals pull away from him and just hope he can catch back up. That wouldn't be too smart of an idea.

Can't remember which team director said it at last year's Tour (I think), but it went something along the lines of "If you don't shake the tree, no apples will fall out". Of course Vino's shaking was in vain, in hindsight, but I say "shake away" - got me on the edge of the couch.

Wonder if instead Astana are setting up some sort of double-play with Kloden. Make Vino appear the danger man to counter, so Vino attacks, GC contenders chase and wear themselves down, then Klodi counter attacks.

Or, maybe not. Maybe the red mist just descended and he just went for it.

Yes, yes, yes. Shake the race up. A lot of apples could have fallen but most of them got lucky.

Vino can definitely play spoiler now and ruin rattle all the contenders. All for Kloden's benefit of course. I think Vino will repay Kloden now for the display of loyalty.

fc

Look, Vino just put the peleton on notice that he and Astana are not going to roll over and play dead. Astana now has a situation where the peleton just can't write him off and worry only ablout kloden. It'll will make things more nervous for the GC guys, except Kloden, who will know what Vino is planning. Seems like a really smart move to me. The TdF is just as much a head game as it is about talent.

The tour just a a fair bit more interesting.

I stand corrected. LL moved from 9th to 7th. Looks like LL made it past 8th, after all.

Astana did make the right move. No doubt.

I was referencing his jump off the field near the finish. Does he think this is the Champs and his overtaking 5th?:p

Sorry but I'm sure everyone knows he's still around.

It smacks as the same showboating Voeckler was ripped on for a little camera, face time.

It did seem like a waste of time and energy. He's not going to gain a significant amount of time, no time bonus'. I could definitely see him doing that if they were going for the stage win. Even with his time gap, he still won't be allowed to escape in the mountains. And if he's as hurt as he looks, he isn't even capable of winning a stage in the mountains. So maybe he's stage hunting on the flat routes. But this wasn't for a stage. It did keep him in towards the front and out of possible crashes for a while, but that's about it. But this is Vino. And even when he's hurt, and it's not for a stage win, he can't resist attacking, just to see if he can blow them away. That's the big attraction about him.

All you who claim that Vino has a history of futile attacks seem to be forgetting whose "futile" attack was being pursued when Beloki crashed breaking his leg and Armstrong went cross country in the 2003 stage to Gap.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2003/tour03/?id=stage9/1

I read the item on PEZ about the echelon riding in sidewinds which was really interesting, so it would seem there is not much advantage i.e. draft to be gained being back in the Peloton in that situation or put it this way not so much disadvantage to be had hammering out the front so everybody suffered, all the interviews everyone talks about what a tough day it was. 48+ Kmh average, the mind boggles.

What advantage have Astana created by forcing the pace like that? Wouldn't Chicken have preferred a day where the pace was not so high? He came out OK, but now he and everyone else is more fatigued than they would have been leading into the TT at least. Whether that affects Chicken more than Kloeden is a good question.

Look, Vino just put the peleton on notice that he and Astana are not going to roll over and play dead. Astana now has a situation where the peleton just can't write him off and worry only ablout kloden. It'll will make things more nervous for the GC guys, except Kloden, who will know what Vino is planning. Seems like a really smart move to me. The TdF is just as much a head game as it is about talent.

The tour just a a fair bit more interesting.


I think you have it right. Kloden is in a perfect position.

All you who claim that Vino has a history of futile attacks seem to be forgetting whose "futile" attack was being pursued when Beloki crashed breaking his leg and Armstrong went cross country in the 2003 stage to Gap.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2003/tour03/?id=stage9/1


note: even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

That would require Kloden to let the strongest riders and his GC rivals pull away from him and just hope he can catch back up. That wouldn't be too smart of an idea.It wouldn't be smart of Kloeden to let the GC contenders ride away from him in pursuit of Vino, but the idea is for Kloeden to latch on to the chasers as they pursue, and to attack when they have spent some energy.

Vino has a pretty nice palmares for being as stupid as he is.