After all the stuff thats happened this year and last, it really makes me wonder about some of the herioc effforts I enjoyed watching in past tours, specifically the numerous dominant stage wins by Lance. This year it looks like Vino's heroic efforts in the TT and the mountain stage were aided by something....and same with Rasmussens numerous "super human" stage wins.. Last year we had Landis and his dominant stage wins, also now suspect.

But what about all of the dominant wins by Lance in past tours? Sure he was never proven to be doping, but looking back it really makes me wonder. And I'm not a Lance hater either...have several posters of him in my office. But now I just question those super-human efforts he had and whether or not he might have been cheating.

Drugs and deception have been a part of cycling since day one. Read a history of the Tour, for example, from Maurice Garin to Antiquel to Pantani to today. Look at the 1977 Tour of Flanders. Nothing’s certain and on some level everything’s suspect.

The efforts were huge and the winner beat the others that day. It is what it is. Enough said.

Personally, I think that we attach the words “hero” and “heroic” to sports figures and performances far too often.

I have watched Lance race - many times live -- from 1992 on. I remember when he won the Triple crown, and got goosebumps when he won the Worlds. I cheered him on from the side of the road at every single Tour he participated in, not just won. And I am firmly convinced he doped before and after his cancer. I liked to watch him as a doped athelete competing against many other (mostly) doped atheletes -- but tire of what I believe to be his lies. In my book, he is morally and ethically somewhere south of Richard Virenque (and is in good company w/ Hamilton, Basso, etc., etc.) which, given how much I dislike Virenque, is not a good thing. So, yes, I am angry at having him made me respect Virenque more than him!

I always Virenque after Paris-Tours 1999.

Everybody cheats......................if not cycling, then it's driving home from work.

Everybody cheats......................

It's a Dave Stoehler moment:p

Yay tour de PRO Dopers... The tour is dead... wake up.

After all the stuff thats happened this year and last, it really makes me wonder about some of the herioc effforts I enjoyed watching in past tours, specifically the numerous dominant stage wins by Lance. This year it looks like Vino's heroic efforts in the TT and the mountain stage were aided by something....and same with Rasmussens numerous "super human" stage wins.. Last year we had Landis and his dominant stage wins, also now suspect.

But what about all of the dominant wins by Lance in past tours? Sure he was never proven to be doping, but looking back it really makes me wonder. And I'm not a Lance hater either...have several posters of him in my office. But now I just question those super-human efforts he had and whether or not he might have been cheating.


Short answer: YES!

The reason, most of those that have had "Heroic" efforts have been proven to be dopers. Of those that haven't there are tons of circumstantial evidence and allegations surrounding them.

As has mentioned, the Tour/cycling or sports in general have never been clean. Pick a sport and there is cheating taking place whether through PED's or other means.

People love to worship athletes and celebrities because they are on TV and do things they can't do in their own lives. However, that worship is so misguided it's funny. Watch sports as entertainment and applaud their efforts for what they are, not as Hero's.

If you want to worship somebody, or make somebody a Hero:


Pick your local fireman who puts his life at risk every day.

Pick a teacher that educates your children and acts as a surrogate parent for your child and helps keep them from making bad choices.

Pick a police officer that saves your life.

Pick a doctor that prevents you from getting Cancer.

Pick a computer engineer that develops life saving products.

Pick a parent that actually acts like a parent and does their job instead of passing the buck onto the schools, society, etc.


Those are true hero's....athletes are entertainers....Nothing more, nothing less.

Yea, I didn't mean that I looked at these bike racers as heroes. I meant that their efforts were heroic and very dramatic....very enjoyable to watch on TV, like when Vino attacked the other day and then cruised on to the finish raising both arms in victory as he crossed the line. Then you find out they're cheating and its a huge letdown.

Yea, I didn't mean that I looked at these bike racers as heroes. I meant that their efforts were heroic and very dramatic....very enjoyable to watch on TV, like when Vino attacked the other day and then cruised on to the finish raising both arms in victory as he crossed the line. Then you find out they're cheating and its a huge letdown.

I'm not really saying you do look at the riders as hero's but a lot of people do.

I agree, watching spectacular/super human efforts is fun and exciting, especially if it's somebody you like or feel some connection to for what ever reason. However, history has told us that when we see efforts like that there is more to it than meets the eye.

The old saying goes: "Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it"

Well, cycling history says, spectacular or super human performances are performed by riders that dope. Look at the list of riders who have been caught or accused of doping. It's pretty much every top rider in the peloton over the last century or so.

I still love watching the tour or cycling races in general because I love cycling. I know when I see a superhuman performance that it's probably an enhanced performance, and I just take it for what it's worth...Entertainment.

The difference is, the stuff in the last couple of decades really works (though I think blood doping has been around for a long time and that certainly works). I don't have any experience with any of it, but I imagine that a rider on speed 30 years ago is still basically the same rider with a little boost. A rider on today's PEDs is super human. Mediocre riders can become great if their body responds to drugs better than the other guys.

The difference is, the stuff in the last couple of decades really works (though I think blood doping has been around for a long time and that certainly works). I don't have any experience with any of it, but I imagine that a rider on speed 30 years ago is still basically the same rider with a little boost. A rider on today's PEDs is super human. Mediocre riders can become great if their body responds to drugs better than the other guys.

I'm no medical expert, but that sure does sound logical to me. I'd even go so far as to say it was the late 80s or early 90s before it got out of hand. Sure steroids were around before that time, but I doubt they have the effect that a cyclist wants.

The sad part is that those "heroic" performances can still be there without the drugs. I enjoy the battles between riders, the strategies, the drama, etc. I don't care if they ride at 300 watts or 500 watts. I don't care if the average speed is 37 km/hr or 27 km/hr.

The race between 2 BMW 330i cars can be just as exciting as the race between 2 formula 1 cars. So what if the action is a little slower?

I agree. It's the parity that makes racing exiting. Not a few extra mph.

I'm no medical expert, but that sure does sound logical to me. I'd even go so far as to say it was the late 80s or early 90s before it got out of hand. Sure steroids were around before that time, but I doubt they have the effect that a cyclist wants.

they were all just fit cyclists hopped up on speed

I'm no medical expert, but that sure does sound logical to me. I'd even go so far as to say it was the late 80s or early 90s before it got out of hand. Sure steroids were around before that time, but I doubt they have the effect that a cyclist wants.

Well, blood doping has been around for a long time and I'd be willing to bet it was rampant in the early 80's on. Combine that with some stimulants for the extra push needed on tough stages and you have a potent combination of drugs.

Not sure about the first EPO release date, but my understanding is late 80's to early 90's, which would put it right in time for Indurain's reign.

Testosterone/steroids could have been used on excessively hard stages with the same effect of what Landis (allegedly) used it to. It provides better recovery and aggression on a stage when an all out effort is needed.

There are lots of drugs they could have used back even in the 60's and 70's that would have worked well enough to give a good edge on tough stages.

The sad part is that those "heroic" performances can still be there without the drugs. I enjoy the battles between riders, the strategies, the drama, etc. I don't care if they ride at 300 watts or 500 watts. I don't care if the average speed is 37 km/hr or 27 km/hr.

The race between 2 BMW 330i cars can be just as exciting as the race between 2 formula 1 cars. So what if the action is a little slower?

Agreed....I like to see competition. I don't care if it's doped up or not, I just want to see the best person win. Slow racing can be just as exciting as fast racing.

However, in this day and age it's all about being super human and people want to see things that are "beyond their comprehension", not just beyond their ability.

Honestly, I can't even comprehend how fast these guys are going or how it must feel to ride that much, that fast, with that much climbing and I think it's that part of the race that people are amazed by.

With many of the posts earlier in this years Tour people touted liking the riders that are no longer in the race because of the way they rode....They were attackers, they rode guys off their wheel, the were power on wheels, etc. The didn't like consistent performers, who may or may not be clean.

I just want to see bicycle racing at the top levels and would prefer it to be clean racing. Heck anybody that has watched the national championships, or other races in America has watched competition that wasn't world class.

Short answer: YES!

The reason, most of those that have had "Heroic" efforts have been proven to be dopers. Of those that haven't there are tons of circumstantial evidence and allegations surrounding them.

As has mentioned, the Tour/cycling or sports in general have never been clean. Pick a sport and there is cheating taking place whether through PED's or other means.

People love to worship athletes and celebrities because they are on TV and do things they can't do in their own lives. However, that worship is so misguided it's funny. Watch sports as entertainment and applaud their efforts for what they are, not as Hero's.

If you want to worship somebody, or make somebody a Hero:


Pick your local fireman who puts his life at risk every day.

Pick a teacher that educates your children and acts as a surrogate parent for your child and helps keep them from making bad choices.

Pick a police officer that saves your life.

Pick a doctor that prevents you from getting Cancer.

Pick a computer engineer that develops life saving products.

Pick a parent that actually acts like a parent and does their job instead of passing the buck onto the schools, society, etc.


Those are true hero's....athletes are entertainers....Nothing more, nothing less.

Athletes are also humans. It seems like most cycling fans in here have forgotten that. It's the attitude that athletes are nothing but entertainers, puppets for our enjoyment, as if we hold the same values as fans of dog fights. Athletes are human and open to all the failures that all humans commit.
Athletes are a MAJOR source of inspiration. Do you think Lance inspired anyone? How many people have been inspired by Tom Cruise?

a while ago i once read a post that had links to utube comparing lemond, hinault, fignon climbing the hills in the 80's, vs Lance doing it from 99-05. if that doesnt make you wonder, someone's a bit naive.

I assume they're all frauds now. They're the same as 'roided up wrestlers - phoney sports for suckers. I really kind of resent it.

But that's the point isn't it. It's not like auto racing where we there are record lap times. So we can't measure in tangible terms the progress over the years.

All that's relevant is the competition in any given year, doped or not.

That was then and this is now. Sure some of the past exploits look highly suspect by todays viewpoint but that was how it was then. It is history and no amount of hand wringing and gnashing of teeth can change even one pedal stroke of the past. Many things were acceptable in the (recent) past are now totally unacceptable. Some riders seem to be having trouble adjusting to that right now. Change is difficult and for some nearly impossible. So when judging past exploits we need to evaluate in the context of the era in which the exploit occured.

So I can still see the Armstrong/Ullrich mountain showdowns and feel awe in the same way I can see two top fuel funnycars go down a dragstrip. Both are nothing I will ever do even though I drive a car and ride a bicycle.

a while ago i once read a post that had links to utube comparing lemond, hinault, fignon climbing the hills in the 80's, vs Lance doing it from 99-05. if that doesnt make you wonder, someone's a bit naive.

But, remember up until a short while ago, Lemond held the fastest Tour time trial, ever. Yeah, before the really super aero equipment came out, and before bikes became really light, he crushed it. Look at Merckx's hour record that stood for a long long time on a standard bike.

they were all just fit cyclists hopped up on speed
Totally. Wasn’t Eric de Vlaemicnk treated for addition to methamphetamines even though he never tested positive?

I assume they're all frauds now. They're the same as 'roided up wrestlers - phoney sports for suckers. I really kind of resent it.

I don't see how you can compare pro wrestling with cycling. Cycling is a legitimate competition. Pro wrestling is an athletic play.
The fraud of pro wrestling comes from the very nature of the event. It's set out to be fake. If you want to "clean it up", it will still be fake.
Men racing on bicycles is real. If you "clean it up", it's still men racing on bicycles.
If you are lazy or incapable of making the effort to judge individuals, then by all means take the easy way out and label all of them frauds. But why punish yourself by indulging in a bike racing forum? Do you also participate in pro wrestling forums?
Do you enjoy any sports or are they all frauds?

Athletes are also humans. It seems like most cycling fans in here have forgotten that. It's the attitude that athletes are nothing but entertainers, puppets for our enjoyment, as if we hold the same values as fans of dog fights. Athletes are human and open to all the failures that all humans commit.
Athletes are a MAJOR source of inspiration. Do you think Lance inspired anyone? How many people have been inspired by Tom Cruise?


The difference.....People now are looking to the TV for their hero's not their local communities. Yes, entertainers can inspire....That's rather obvious, but to put so much emphasis on them is stupid.

Athletes/entertainers are human, however due to the money involved and the pressures put on them they are more open to failures than normal people and more people see those failures.

In our society however, we have turned to those athletes/entertainers for our hero worship because they make a lot of money and people admire them and want to be them. We as a society have left the local hero's that can actually make a real difference in peoples lives behind.

I would hope you don't want people like Rasmussen, Vino, Lindsey Lohan, Brittney Spears, Robert Downey Jr., Pacman Jones, Michael Vick, etc. to be roll models/Hero's for your kids. What's the divorce rate in Hollywood? Anybody?

Yes, normal people have their failures as well, but they are real, they can make an immediate impact, they are the ones that are there to help you out and pick you up when you are down. Not many (if any at all) athletes/celebrities will be there when you have a bad day, have failures of your own, etc.

Athletes/entertainers may inspire, but that's all they can really do beyond entertain and donate money to a charity.

In the real world, they are nothing more than entertainment for the masses....:(

Pick your local fireman who puts his life at risk every day.

Pick a teacher that educates your children and acts as a surrogate parent for your child and helps keep them from making bad choices.

Pick a police officer that saves your life.

Pick a doctor that prevents you from getting Cancer.

Pick a computer engineer that develops life saving products.

Pick a parent that actually acts like a parent and does their job instead of passing the buck onto the schools, society, etc.


Those are true hero's....athletes are entertainers....Nothing more, nothing less.


doctors don't prevent cancer...only you can prevent certain types of cancer from various lifestyle choices...the rest is a crapshoot. physicians can treat cancer...sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

the problem of doping exists due to the extraordinary amounts of $$ that is thrown at these individuals for doing a sport...I'm often floored at professional "athletes" salaries based on what they do on a day to day basis...

baseball players? I mean come on, 90% of the time they're just standing around...
football players? don't get me started...
basketball players? an inordianate prevalence of NBA playes are criminals and juveniles..
yet many still garnish millions of dollars...

cycling is no different...the payout is too great for these guys to not consider doping for a win...

these are sports people, they do NOT required years and years of specialized education, practice insurance, or service oaths...they are not held accountable for anything other than playing their game...the rest is drama. they are overpaid....

doctors don't prevent cancer...only you can prevent certain types of cancer from various lifestyle choices...the rest is a crapshoot. physicians can treat cancer...sometimes successfully, sometimes not.


Prevent....Treat...Whatever, you get the idea if you read the whole post....:rolleyes:

Yes, they are suspect. Eddie tested positive in the 60s (speed, I think), and refused a drug test after another competition. My guess is transfusions have been around from the time somebody figured out the weak link in human endurance is blood oxygen capacity- I don't know how long they've been able to test for them. I think it was Phil Leggett who said last year the difference between all the previous great performances and the ones he was seeing now (then) were that the riders now look tired after a mountain stage. He didn't name names, but it is curious to look at all those mountain top finishers ready to party after burning 5000 calories in 4 hours.