I recently got socked for a 20-minute consultation with a hematologist: over $600 for a visit.
Their attitude: sorry, that's what we charge.
My attitude: if I got billed that much by an attorney, he'd have to at least lie and tell me what he did each minute to deserve it. And that attorney would tell up front what he was going to charge me.
Their attitude: we don't like to tell patients up front what the charge will be.

And I thought $260 for a well-baby visit was outrageous.

Even though I grew up as the son of a physician, it really seems like so many doctors game the system. Market forces simply do not exist for them, especially if they can bill insurance. Same with hospitals. After our baby was born, we saw charges of $200 for a doctor that stopped in and looked at the baby for 5 minutes. A one-mile ambulance ride I took a few years ago: $600.

Studies have shown that the more doctors in a given area, the higher the bills are.

No checks and balances and no one to be accountable to. Sometimes I think the whole system of insurance encourages doctors and hospitals to screw everyone. If no one had insurance and had to pay out of pocket, the maybe our health system would be healthier.

I recently got socked for a 20-minute consultation with a hematologist: over $600 for a visit.
Their attitude: sorry, that's what we charge.
My attitude: if I got billed that much by an attorney, he'd have to at least lie and tell me what he did each minute to deserve it. And that attorney would tell up front what he was going to charge me.
Their attitude: we don't like to tell patients up front what the charge will be.

And I thought $260 for a well-baby visit was outrageous.

Even though I grew up as the son of a physician, it really seems like so many doctors game the system. Market forces simply do not exist for them, especially if they can bill insurance. Same with hospitals. After our baby was born, we saw charges of $200 for a doctor that stopped in and looked at the baby for 5 minutes. A one-mile ambulance ride I took a few years ago: $600.

Studies have shown that the more doctors in a given area, the higher the bills are.

No checks and balances and no one to be accountable to. Sometimes I think the whole system of insurance encourages doctors and hospitals to screw everyone. If no one had insurance and had to pay out of pocket, the maybe our health system would be healthier.

amen brutha.

and that 30 cents of every health care dollar goes to advertising

and that the head of one of the big carriers is making 1.2 BILLION a year

It is strange that they did not tell you up front an approximate charge for the visit. Did you ask prior to seeing the physician? The physicians I know and work for can at least give a ball park for a minimum and maximum charge. One ortho I know charges approx $425 for a cash pay consult. You are correct though, if everybody paid a true cost then it would be a lower amount for the average guy. Instead, you got to make up the difference between the crappy insurance company contracts and medicare that only pays $100.00 for that visit. And for those who think that $100.00 is plenty of money to charge for a 20 minutes visit, my Sea-doo mechanic just charged me $125.00 for a diagnostic computer check to tell me it will now cost $300.00 to really find out what went wrong in the engine. I agree the system needs to be changed but unfortunately I do not think it will happen anytime soon no matter what the politicians are saying. I think it will be the new catch phase like "I believe in a good education system" or "I support the military" whether they do or not.

I did ask the hematology billing person why they didn't say up front what the base charge would be, and she said "well, if we tell them a number, they'll just complain if it's higher, so we don't quote anything."

I don't see how refusing to state charges up front can possibly be ethical. But then, if insurance pays for most people, then I guess most people don't care. Economists have a term for when someone else pays: moral hazard. If someone else buys you dinner or pays for your gas, you help yourself to more. It's the same for medicine.

I've got folks telling me we have the best heath care in the world. Yah right. I haven't believed it since I was in a kid in high school and that was a lot of years ago. I had a family physician write a friggin prescription, in their typical scribble, for a product that I could have bought off of the shelf. I paid 3 times the price for it. The f'rs have been on the take as far as I'm concerned for the past 40 years and it ain't never going to change. A bunch of sicko's is what they are!! I avoid 'em like the plague, and now question everything. "Family" physician, yah right!!

It is strange that they did not tell you up front an approximate charge for the visit. Did you ask prior to seeing the physician? The physicians I know and work for can at least give a ball park for a minimum and maximum charge. One ortho I know charges approx $425 for a cash pay consult. You are correct though, if everybody paid a true cost then it would be a lower amount for the average guy. Instead, you got to make up the difference between the crappy insurance company contracts and medicare that only pays $100.00 for that visit. And for those who think that $100.00 is plenty of money to charge for a 20 minutes visit, my Sea-doo mechanic just charged me $125.00 for a diagnostic computer check to tell me it will now cost $300.00 to really find out what went wrong in the engine. I agree the system needs to be changed but unfortunately I do not think it will happen anytime soon no matter what the politicians are saying. I think it will be the new catch phase like "I believe in a good education system" or "I support the military" whether they do or not.

Oh my Dog! Did you actually compare a visit to a doctor to that of a visit to a SeaDoo mechanic???

Oh you poor rich bastard! :rolleyes:

I guess you might just die if your SeaDoo didn't work while on vaca???

The hospital or doctor charges a humongous amount, but the insurance company pays only a small fraction of it because they have a contract that dictates what things cost. The hospital or doctor then uses the difference as a tax write off.

I once got a hospital bill for $70K, and the insurance company paid only $12K, and everything was cool with the hospital.

You should demand to be billed the same as insurance companies are billed.

I got this from somewhere:
"You may face a wildly inflated bill. As backward as it may seem, hospitals often charge uninsured patients far more than the discounted prices given to insurance companies and government programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. The "sticker price" for rooms, drugs and medical care for an uninsured person can be two or three times the price paid by insurers, according to the National Consumer Law Center."

The hospital or doctor charges a humongous amount, but the insurance company pays only a small fraction of it because they have a contract that dictates what things cost. The hospital or doctor then uses the difference as a tax write off.

I once got a hospital bill for $70K, and the insurance company paid only $12K, and everything was cool with the hospital.

You should demand to be billed the same as insurance companies are billed.


is being billed the same as the insurance company, the difference is, the insurance company has used their numbers, and sheer volume of enrollees to negotiate a huge discount with the provider, the self payor gets screwed....but (gasp) I agree with Spydie, it's about choices, one of the ideas recently proposed at a meeting I was at was for a national health plan WITH a two thousand dollar deductibly annually per person, and a five thousand dollar deductible per family. Sucks, but someone has to foot the bill. Which means maybe people can't go to hawaii for vacation, or buy that new car, or have a lot of toys.

/ That proposal was IMMENSELY popular with some of the government types who were there.

is being billed the same as the insurance company, the difference is, the insurance company has used their numbers, and sheer volume of enrollees to negotiate a huge discount with the provider, the self payor gets screwed....but (gasp) I agree with Spydie, it's about choices, one of the ideas recently proposed at a meeting I was at was for a national health plan WITH a two thousand dollar deductibly annually per person, and a five thousand dollar deductible per family. Sucks, but someone has to foot the bill. Which means maybe people can't go to hawaii for vacation, or buy that new car, or have a lot of toys.

/ That proposal was IMMENSELY popular with some of the government types who were there.

Who proposed that plan? Why can't it be done for say $500pp? I think Michael more said Cuba provides free healthcare for about $250 per person? Patient out of pocket = $0.00

Who has to profit besides the medical personel?

Who proposed that plan? Why can't it be done for say $500pp? I think Michael more said Cuba provides free healthcare for about $250 per person? Patient out of pocket = $0.00

Who has to profit besides the medical personel?


R&D, Equipment, personnel (nurses, lab staff, xray peeps-they all make A LOT more here than elsewhere), hospital maintenance, etc. It was proposed by the dean of a rather prominent medical school, and there were two congressional staffers there, one dem, one repub. They BOTH loved the idea. This is the problem with that windbag Moore, he's trying to compare apples and oranges. You can't compare Cuba's health system with America's, not on a cost basis, unless you account for all kinds of economic factors (inflation, cost of living, salaries, building costs, taxes, etc.) You guys and Moore, are trying to apply a very inaccurate comparison with other countries and making it sound like it's an easy fix. It's not, it's nowhere in the neighborhood of an easy fix, there are so many confounding and complex variables, it will take years to fix. I think we can, but you have to understand, the money HAS to come from somewhere, and the congressional staffers were very concerned about the tax implications with a national plan. They didn't think there was ANY way that congress would vote for the necessary tax hikes, BUT, with an increased deductible and a lower tax increase, they thought that would be far more palatable.

Yes, I am a poor rich registered nurse. You know we bring in the big bucks. HUGE money. Rolling in it.

Yes, I am a poor rich registered nurse. You know we bring in the big bucks. HUGE money. Rolling in it.
You mean you can't split each day at 3pm and play 18 holes of golf?:rolleyes:

//sounds like you shoulda been a hemotologist if you wanted big $$

No, I am the one who stays a full 12 and doesn't play golf because I'd rather ride.

You forgot pharma advertising, insurance cos profits - i.e., malpractice ins, premiums, more advertising...etc. Doctors have become pushers/drug dealers for the pharmas.

I think this takes some outside the box thinking. If we leave it up to the industry insiders, we'll never see change. $2,000pp is still way too much! Take that $2,000 from my taxes I already pay. R&D can come from other sources. The university system can be retrofitted to get off the corporate teet. Cap military spending at 100% of our nearest potential enemy. There isn't a terrorist behind every tree.

If I told you tomorrow that your malpractice premium would be cut in half, wouldn't you be happy? It's the insurance industry that has driven healthcare costs through the roof.

No one should be trying to profit off of someone's cancer. I think we can fix it too, but it will take serious revolutionary "outside of the box" thought. The president of a medical school won't advocate a solution that would involve cutting military spending and closing insurance cos...

In order to do so, the first place we have start is publically fund all elections. The medical and insurance lobbies are too strong.

Like I said, beyond medical personel, who should profit off someone's cancer?

Seriously, would you care if you're still making $250-500K under a different system? Wouldn't you be happier if you didn't have to fight with ins cos?

It's pretty simple math... $500 * 300,000,000 people = $150 billion...

R&D, Equipment, personnel (nurses, lab staff, xray peeps-they all make A LOT more here than elsewhere), hospital maintenance, etc.

It was proposed by the dean of a rather prominent medical school, and there were two congressional staffers there, one dem, one repub. They BOTH loved the idea. This is the problem with that windbag Moore, he's trying to compare apples and oranges. You can't compare Cuba's health system with America's, not on a cost basis, unless you account for all kinds of economic factors (inflation, cost of living, salaries, building costs, taxes, etc.) You guys and Moore, are trying to apply a very inaccurate comparison with other countries and making it sound like it's an easy fix. It's not, it's nowhere in the neighborhood of an easy fix, there are so many confounding and complex variables, it will take years to fix. I think we can, but you have to understand, the money HAS to come from somewhere, and the congressional staffers were very concerned about the tax implications with a national plan. They didn't think there was ANY way that congress would vote for the necessary tax hikes, BUT, with an increased deductible and a lower tax increase, they thought that would be far more palatable.

I think it's pretty absurd to blame the doctors. The whole system is to blame, particularly the 30% administrative overhead (red tape) on every healthcare dollar spent. Do some doctors game the system? Sure, but I think they don't deserve the amount of blame they seem to be getting here. All the doctors I know are honest, hardworking, and truly want to help people, not just make money.

Maybe the problem is the choice of doctors? My doctors and those for my family are mainly working at a large hospital that also does a lot of work for underprivileged patients who have few healthcare resources. I have long waits and it can be hard to get visits scheduled, but my doctors do a good job, care, and are all probably making much less than they could in private practice.

Like I said, beyond medical personel, who should profit off someone's cancer?


You are misusing the word "profit". Someone earning money at a job makes an income from wages, not a profit. There is a big difference, both in practical and economic terms. A doctor that owns his/her own practice can earn a profit, but wages are not the same as profit.

That said, I agree that making an entrepreneurial profit from healthcare is contradictory to putting the patients health first.

Nate, I'm not blaming docs... Please go back and reread my post with that in mind...

It's mainly the insurance cos and politicos that are to blame.

The industry insiders will not change how the system funds itself. They won't/can't think far enough outside the box for the necessary changes. This was clear when physasst's pres. of the medical school promotes a $2000 per patient plan. That's $600 billion...of which $450 billion is profit.

Besides medical personal, should anyone profit off your mother's/brother's/sister's cancer?

The insurance industry is trying to profit off of the misery and suffering of the American people.



I think it's pretty absurd to blame the doctors. The whole system is to blame, particularly the 30% administrative overhead (red tape) on every healthcare dollar spent. Do some doctors game the system? Sure, but I think they don't deserve the amount of blame they seem to be getting here. All the doctors I know are honest, hardworking, and truly want to help people, not just make money.

Maybe the problem is the choice of doctors? My doctors and those for my family are mainly working at a large hospital that also does a lot of work for underprivileged patients who have few healthcare resources. I have long waits and it can be hard to get visits scheduled, but my doctors do a good job, care, and are all probably making much less than they could in private practice.

You are misusing the word "profit". Someone earning money at a job makes an income from wages, not a profit. There is a big difference, both in practical and economic terms. A doctor that owns his/her own practice can earn a profit, but wages are not the same as profit.

That said, I agree that making an entrepreneurial profit from healthcare is contradictory to putting the patients health first.

Nate, I guess I was thinking of doctors as being self-employed. Many tend to operate private practices...

Anyway, my argument is about how the insurance industry manipulates the health care industry, driving up health care rates, and profits from the pain and suffering of Americans. It's inhumane.

My mother had a liver transplant back in the early 80s. The insurance company originally rejected her claim. It was back in the day when liver transplants were considered what "they" call "experimental." Now, if my mother didn't have the transplant she would have died based on the decision of an administrator purely trying to save money.

That said, look at how common liver transplants are today. If we listened to insurance cos, and didn't take chances based on their profit motives, how would we advance as a society?

I wonder how many people have died these past 40 years because their insurance company thought a procedure was experimental? How many people have died cause they can't afford to practice preventative health care? Cancer patients have a higher rate of survival if the cancer is found and treated earlier... So, I wouldn't be surprised if that figure is probably in 100s of thousands...

Interesting way to control a population???

Yes, I am a poor rich registered nurse. You know we bring in the big bucks. HUGE money. Rolling in it.

Don't worry--nurses are the last ones to blame, if at all.

amen brutha.

Does John Edwards have good plans regarding health care costs?