Hi - It's great to have a coaching forum!

A bit of background on me. I'm late 30's, been into mountain bikes for a couple of years (mainly trail riding and endurance style XC events, 100km etc) and started riding to work a while back to increase mileage and fitness. I quickly realised a mountain bike has limitations on the road and took the plunge on a road bike a couple of months ago. I'm hooked - I've been riding like crazy (200-300km per week) including joining some groups recently. My fitness and basic skills keeps me with even the fast groups on rolling terrain and climbs but most of the group leave in the dust on descents. The descents are steep switchbacks into gorges which scare me.

My question - what are some technique's or skills I can practice to accelerate my learning in this key area? I know the basics of weighting the outside pedal and not braking through a corner but I'm really tentative and am heavy on the brakes coming into turns. Is it just time in the saddle or is there something else I could be doing?

Thanks in advance.

HillBilly

PS - I came off a couple of weeks ago on a sweeping right hander in the wet. The bike went from under me and I later learned it is a spot where oil accumulates. This experience is probably fuelling my fear.

Hey HillBilly...First official post in the new forum!

To answer your question, first of all your new to the road so it will take time for you to become comfortable. Don't feel bad that you can't keep up with the others that have much more experience. Cornering is all about center of balance, and knowing the limits of your traction.

When i'm trying to descend fast I'm always in the drops and keeping my body as low as possible. What I notice when riding with others on a fast descent is they tend to sit up out of a tuck coming into a corner, I do not. I keep my chin as close down to bar level as possible while sticking out the inside knee. The technique is similar to what you would see professional road motorcycle racers use, and of course professional cyclists.

Try to get your breaking done before the turn as you don't want to have to make hard braking corrections while leaned over into the corner. One other important note, RELAX! I see alot of riders with a death grip on there bike while going downhill. This only leads to more problems.

Even the best go down occasionaly and it may take some time for your confidence to return. Try these techniques and watch the other riders you can't keep up with and you will improve with time. Good luck.

Hey HillBilly...First official post in the new forum!

To answer your question, first of all your new to the road so it will take time for you to become comfortable. Don't feel bad that you can't keep up with the others that have much more experience. Cornering is all about center of balance, and knowing the limits of your traction.

When i'm trying to descend fast I'm always in the drops and keeping my body as low as possible. What I notice when riding with others on a fast descent is they tend to sit up out of a tuck coming into a corner, I do not. I keep my chin as close down to bar level as possible while extending out the inside knee. The technique is similar to what you would see professional road motorcycle racers use, and of course professional cyclists.

Try to get your breaking done before the turn as you don't want to have to make hard braking corrections while leaned over into the corner. One other important note, RELAX! I see alot of riders with a death grip on there bike while going downhill. This only leads to more problems.

Even the best go down occasionaly and it may take some time for your confidence to return. Try these techniques and watch the other riders you can't keep up with and you will improve with time. Good luck.


I agree with what you have said and will add a few things:

1. look into the turn. You will always go where you look. If you look through he turn you will go through the turn. If you look at the ditch to the outside of the turn you will go into the ditch. If you look at the oil slick in the middle of a turn you will head straight for it.

2. For fast descending learn to counter steer. That means at fast speed if you want to turn to the left push the bar slightly forward with your left hand. It's counterintuitive, but works. What it does is actually leans the bike into the turn for you and initiates the turn. The more you push, the sharper the turn. Works great at speed.

Here is a picture of me as I'm entering a corner at speed. In this photo I'm moving at about 35 mph. I'm looking through the turn, have my body weighted to the inside of the bike, have the outside pedal down and weighted, my body weight is low and my position is aggressive on the bike.

Good pic and good technique. I agree with your added points as well. As you get more time on the bike, you will no longer have to think about each little detail, it will just come naturaly. Getting that inside knee out really brings your center of gravity down and to the inside allowing you to corner faster.

I just spent a day up in northwestern SC, and as a flatlander (coastal Florida), I found that I descend like a frightened child. I like hills, but when it gets steep and curvy, I need wayyyy more experience. That said, Wookiebiker, your photo scares the crap out of me. :)

Thanks guys - no doubt I'm early on in the skill acquiring phase. Apart from just riding more hills - are there any flat land exercises or drills I could be doing to help me out?

Thanks

HillBillies

I just spent a day up in northwestern SC, and as a flatlander (coastal Florida), I found that I descend like a frightened child. I like hills, but when it gets steep and curvy, I need wayyyy more experience. That said, Wookiebiker, your photo scares the crap out of me. :)


Well.....The more you do it the better it gets :thumbsup:

As it is I suffer the climbs to fly down the descents. There are few in the group rides I do that can hold my wheel on a descent. The more turns the better as far as I'm concerned.

However straight descents can be fun....There is a couple of descents around here where I've hit 55+ mph a couple of times going down them :D

I've also found that riding a motorcycle helps get over the fear of speed and helps me continue to work on cornering technique since they are similar (though a little different) between motorcycles and bicycles. On some descents that are really twisty I'm faster on my bicycle than on my motorcycle (it's a cruiser so it's not the best cornering motorcycle out there).

Thanks guys - no doubt I'm early on in the skill acquiring phase. Apart from just riding more hills - are there any flat land exercises or drills I could be doing to help me out?

Thanks

HillBillies

Sure....There is a lot you can do on the flat lands. Go to a parking lot, preferably a pretty big one. If you can find one that has some small downhills that lead into corners....All the better. Then do a small crit course and do laps practicing technique. As you get better, speed up and hit the corners faster and faster. The technique is the same regardless of whether you are on a flat or downhill (though weight distribution might be a little different).

Start out slow, 10-15 mph, work through the corners using proper technique and concentrate on your lines and apexing the corner: outside - inside - outside As you get smoother and carry your speed through the corner better, pick up the speed a little....Say 15-20 mph. If you reach a speed limit due to fitness level, try tighter corners, which will require more lean.

As you get better you can use different techniques for cornering: Late apexing, leaning the bike more than the body or the body more than the bike, etc.

Well, that's exactly the situation I had on Saturday. I was the climber, easily outdistancing myself from my friends on the ups, only to be caught and passed on the descents. My buddy Fred is a motorcycle rider, too, and also grew up flying down Puerto Rican mountainsides on his BMX bike.

Usually mtn bikers are great descenders....

A few things- use the entire lane when you can. Use good brakes (not Shimano pads). Practice the same routes until you can ride it with minimal braking.

My issue is that a lot of the mountain roads here are only a lane and a half wide--- two cars cannot even meet each other--- and guardrails are a rarity.... or they are a foot high. With bad sightlines, there could be a bus coming up the hill around the next blind corner.

Hi - It's great to have a coaching forum!

A bit of background on me. I'm late 30's, been into mountain bikes for a couple of years (mainly trail riding and endurance style XC events, 100km etc) and started riding to work a while back to increase mileage and fitness. I quickly realised a mountain bike has limitations on the road and took the plunge on a road bike a couple of months ago. I'm hooked - I've been riding like crazy (200-300km per week) including joining some groups recently. My fitness and basic skills keeps me with even the fast groups on rolling terrain and climbs but most of the group leave in the dust on descents. The descents are steep switchbacks into gorges which scare me.

My question - what are some technique's or skills I can practice to accelerate my learning in this key area? I know the basics of weighting the outside pedal and not braking through a corner but I'm really tentative and am heavy on the brakes coming into turns. Is it just time in the saddle or is there something else I could be doing?

Thanks in advance.

HillBilly

PS - I came off a couple of weeks ago on a sweeping right hander in the wet. The bike went from under me and I later learned it is a spot where oil accumulates. This experience is probably fuelling my fear.

I'd highly recommend watching these "instructional" videos posted here: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=104521

Yep, if you struggle on hairpins or switchbacks, as many do, then you can get some practice by taking tight turns in a more controlled environment. It still won't be as good as the real thing though.

Part of the difficulty in a hairpin is finding the correct line through the turn, knowing whether the radius of the turn is increasing or decreasing, and also the uncomfortable feeling of acceleration as you hit the apex of the turn in the steepest part of the switchback. A big help is knowing the roads, so if you're joining in on a popular group ride, odds are that those guys have done the descents many times before and know just the line to take to maximize their speed. Once again, getting experience helps. Since you're riding with these guys, try to follow their line and speed, and stay relaxed.

I don't ride as much as I used to and while I descend without hesitation on sweeping turns and reasonably high speeds, I am stymied by technical descents that didn't use to scare me. Keep trying and your comfort level and skill will increase.

Confidence this is a biggy, confidence will come with experience. i also recomend following some of the better decenders down the slopes, watch the lines they take, watch the areas they brake in. Get the know your limits and your tires limits. As a mtb rider you have probably worked this out on the dirt but its a new ball game on the road time will help. i think wookie has it about right., car parks are a great area to learn. The best guys to follow down hills are usually not tri guys or climbers (ready for a flame) find the crit specalists and follow them.

I agree with what you have said and will add a few things:

3) Stay loose through your shoulders, arms and hands. Since you're nervous, you probably have a death grip on the bars. What happens is you start trying to steer the bike rather than leaning the bike to turn. Loosen up.

Another note on the counter steering technique ... Don't over think the process. When you corner, simply push down a bit on the outside bar and keep loose through your shoulders. That's all that's required for effective counter steer.

Everyone has contributed some good points. I again think the most important technique is to relax and watch those you are riding with. Some people are just naturaly better at cornering but you can improve. Afterall, fast descending is really "fast cornering" as it's not hard to get in a tuck and go fast in a straight line. Before you know it everyone will be struggling to hold your wheel on a technical descent.

All good points. As a race winning amateur motocross racer all of the techniques suggested will work. Weight the outside peg is good but there are times when I think keeping your weight on the seat will better balance your weight distribution evenly so as not to lose the front or rear wheel traction.

Watching MotoGP on tv will help give you an idea about lines. On a ride of my brother ZX10 Ninja, I came into a turn a tad too fast and being used to dirt bikes (in your case MTBs) my line selection was waaay off and I drifted into oncoming traffic. (something about God watching over children and fools...Lol) lo and behold I managed to do the exact same thing on my first road bike ride too. This time the bike friendly people of Yorktown Heights saw me coming.

In the dirt we can turn on a dime with the rear wheel, there is no such luxury on the road (bike or motorized) you have to "SEE THE LINE" all the way through the corner or turn and ride it out. Line changes on a road cycle (motor or bike) can be hazardous to your health. Now when I get on my road bicycle I forget everything I knew about dirt riding, it's a different ballgame.
Best of luck Brah.

heels down too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkeSdlGq6MA about 00:34 in, please ignore the bad music

i also like to drop my inside knee into the turn, it helps and hips dont lie! i feel all cool when i do it too... like im FASSSSST

http://www.mbaction.com/archive/bryn_riding.jpg

you can practice on flat surfaces too but be shure to not over do it and create any bad habits, because they can be hard to break. i personaly like go down to the local tennis corts cause that surface is way GRIPPY so i can rail prity easy and listen to my tires without all the other road noise, tires talk too.

When you corner, simply push down a bit on the outside bar and keep loose through your shoulders. That's all that's required for effective counter steer.

Brain fart ... push down on your inside bar.

...so I consider techincal, cornery descents to be my greatest strength in road riding. Unfortunately, I only weigh 145 so I get easily out-rolled on straight descents. :)

You say you have the "basics" such as weighting the outside pedal, but I don't know how many other basics you know. But yes, ALL your weight (except for enough weight on the hands to grip the bars and to keep fore-aft weight balanced) goes on your outside leg. That means that you do NOT sit on your saddle, you stand on the outside pedal such that your rump is just above the saddle, and the top of your inner thigh on that outside leg is pressing against the outside of the saddle slightly.

Crouch your torso/head low with bent elbows, but your shoulder on the inside of the turn will be crouched slightly lower than the outside shoulder. Don't think too much about what your hands are doing with the bars (countersteering, etc), just do what feels natural. Outside knee is in close to the frame, inside knee is sticking out. The other aspect is maintaining proper fore-aft weight balance. You generally want equal weight on both wheels (actually, slightly more weight on the front so that your rear is the first wheel to break traction if it comes to that), and this may change depending on whether you are accelerating, decelerating, or constant speed. The only way to know if you're doing it right is experience and getting a feel for it.

On dry pavement, your rear tire will skitter out slightly when it starts to lose traction, *usually* giving you ample warning that your traction is about to REALLY give way. It usually isn't a sudden, catastropic loss of traction unless you are on a surface that is slick (damp/wet, loose dirt/stones, mossy/moldy, etc).

The other thing that may help is timing your apex through the turn. Depending on the situation, you can use "J" shaped turns, comma shaped turns, or "C" shaped turns. Each one has an apex at a different point in the turn, depending on circumstances/shape of the individual turn.

Lastly, confidence is probably as important as technique. Even with all the technique in the world, you can't force yourself to go fast around corners if you don't have the confidence to do so. Obviously, confidence comes with practice and experience.

Perfect downhill style panzernacker.
I raced a Cannondale F600 hardtail down Ski Plattekille in NY and couldn't unerstand why I was getting all kinds of props from the hard-core DH guys, I thought it was my motocross helmet why they were impressed. Didnt realise they all mustve thought I was out of my mind for doing the steeps on a hard tail.

I look back on it now and plead temporary insanity, you couldnt THROW me down a mountain anymore...on ANY bike, Lol Those guys are nuts!!!

This is all great advice, just one more thing.
In descents, mountain bikers hang off the back and keep the front very light. Though this works well (for all the obvious reasons) in MTBing, it will cause you to have LESS control on a road biking, particularly on descent turns. To feel tight and solid in those turns (follow all the preceding advice and), "press down" on the front end more than you're used to. At first, it may feel a bit scary, but once you get used to it, you'll feel A LOT more control.

Kallisti,

thanks for the advice. I dont have too many safe places to practice that but will try to remember that when I get back on the bike.

Good luck with the ride, that is bonkers man, 545 miles. But it's for a good cause. :-)
MJ

Thanks BenWa,
that made a lot of sense. On a dirt bike sitting balances out the fore/aft traction, even more so than with a mountian bike.

I feel like such a ...total beginner with all of this and my impatient nature makes me want to get 5 years of experience in 3 months...Lol.

Glad you guys keep bloggin on the forum. :-)

[QUOTE=HillBillies]My question - what are some technique's or skills I can practice to accelerate my learning in this key area? [QUOTE]

I had the same problem, read all the books and posted on this site, in the end I hired a coach for some specific descending coaching, tookme to the hill i most hated and went over what to do, then descended and climbed and descended and climbed until I was flying. With him watching me and advising I accelerated more rapidly than I could've any other way.

You probably already know what to do, confidence is the key, and a coach will push you out of yr comfort zone so u wont practice bad habits, it works and doesn't cost much.

Lots of great advice here. Many thanks. I feel fine on sweeping descents - it's the really tight stuff that gets me - hairpins, switchbacks etc. My bike is also ultra stiff and racy which is gonna take a little growing into - not at all forgiving. It can skip around tight corners when pushed which is a little unnerving. I think I'll be following Wingnut's lead before too long and seek some hands on professional help.

HillBilly.

Next time somebody goes by you on a descent get a length or 2 off their wheel and don't let go. Relax and only brake if they do. If they can make it through the corner you can too. My brother in law learned how to descend after only a few descents following me that way and was soon scaring the crap out of me, being younger and more foolish than I was at the time.

If your bike is overly stiff and chattery run the tires with a little less pressure to keep the rubber on the road.

"It usually isn't a sudden, catastropic loss of traction unless you are on a surface that is slick (damp/wet, loose dirt/stones, mossy/moldy, etc)." I don't think I've ever done a long descent that didn't have at least one of those conditions. Most mountain roads have 2/3. Then there are the 1.5 lanes with blind corners and logging trucks, fallen trees, animals....It's fun to rip a descent but always keep your head on straight and remember what you are risking.

...so I consider techincal, cornery descents to be my greatest strength in road riding. Unfortunately, I only weigh 145 so I get easily out-rolled on straight descents. :)

You say you have the "basics" such as weighting the outside pedal, but I don't know how many other basics you know. But yes, ALL your weight (except for enough weight on the hands to grip the bars and to keep fore-aft weight balanced) goes on your outside leg. That means that you do NOT sit on your saddle, you stand on the outside pedal such that your rump is just above the saddle, and the top of your inner thigh on that outside leg is pressing against the outside of the saddle slightly.

Crouch your torso/head low with bent elbows, but your shoulder on the inside of the turn will be crouched slightly lower than the outside shoulder. Don't think too much about what your hands are doing with the bars (countersteering, etc), just do what feels natural. Outside knee is in close to the frame, inside knee is sticking out. The other aspect is maintaining proper fore-aft weight balance. You generally want equal weight on both wheels (actually, slightly more weight on the front so that your rear is the first wheel to break traction if it comes to that), and this may change depending on whether you are accelerating, decelerating, or constant speed. The only way to know if you're doing it right is experience and getting a feel for it.

On dry pavement, your rear tire will skitter out slightly when it starts to lose traction, *usually* giving you ample warning that your traction is about to REALLY give way. It usually isn't a sudden, catastropic loss of traction unless you are on a surface that is slick (damp/wet, loose dirt/stones, mossy/moldy, etc).

The other thing that may help is timing your apex through the turn. Depending on the situation, you can use "J" shaped turns, comma shaped turns, or "C" shaped turns. Each one has an apex at a different point in the turn, depending on circumstances/shape of the individual turn.

Lastly, confidence is probably as important as technique. Even with all the technique in the world, you can't force yourself to go fast around corners if you don't have the confidence to do so. Obviously, confidence comes with practice and experience.
a little different perspective on some of this --
I don't happen to believe that weighting the outside leg does anything much in itself. What I do think matters is to unweight the outside hand/bar, and weighting the outside leg can accomplish this. I do tend to straighten the outside leg for that purpose, because it makes it easier to (remember to) unweight the outside arm. Pressing down on both inside and outside is how I tend to get myself in trouble.

I also don't think that sticking out the inside leg matters, although you certainly will see lots of riders do it. Maybe it does help some riders organize their hips; I don't know. But just as often I will hug the top tube with my inside leg. Turning the bike means leaning the bike, however you accomplish that.

I'm not really disagreeing that the techniques suggested are effective. I am just saying that some of them, I don't believe, are indispensable, because they are not at the heart of the technique. The heart of the technique is to lean the bike, with good balance, loose upper body.

The big guys seem to fall down the hills faster than me. I climb the hills quick, but they descend quick. Oh the perils of weighing 140.

maybe i'll try gerdemann's "I sure as hell hope i don't hit a bump" position.

I think the most critical component of descending has gotten insufficient attention - visional directional control! Basically, the same principle they teach motorcyclists applies on the bicycle - look where you want to go. But that really isn't enough, you need to exaggeratedly turn your whole head to be looking always 8 - 12 seconds ahead of you. In those really tight turns that means REALLY cranking your neck around. If the turns are blind, visualize where the road should be going, and keep turning your head in that direction.

I find when I get spooked in turns my vision narrows and I "target fixate" on whatever scared me. The fastest and easiest cure, though, is to turn my head even more and look further up the road.

A fast decent is a lot of fun, but sometimes I question the intelligence of it as I hit turns as fast as when I'm on my motorcycle. For some reason, bombing down in lycra and a styrofoam helmet seems crazy compared to full 1 piece leathers with armor and back pad... But then its also more fun and much more viceral. :)

Shift your weight to the pedals. Get your butt a half inch off the saddle. The bicycle is the base of a top heavy system. Applying your weight to the pedals lowers the bicycle's center of gravity. By stabalizing the base the system becomes more stable.

Also try not using your brakes at all. Do this on a familiar route when your'e alone. It will help you learn how fast a bike can go through a corner.

None of this works on a wet sweeper with an oil patch.

Shift your weight to the pedals. Get your butt a half inch off the saddle. The bicycle is the base of a top heavy system. Applying your weight to the pedals lowers the bicycle's center of gravity. By stabalizing the base the system becomes more stable.

Also try not using your brakes at all. Do this on a familiar route when your'e alone. It will help you learn how fast a bike can go through a corner.

None of this works on a wet sweeper with an oil patch.
while shifting the weight to the pedals I think helps to get the butt off the saddle a little to help make the body's movements more fluid (and, as I said above, helps to unweight that outside arm/bar, which I think is critical), it won't change the center of gravity.

whether a mass is supported underneath or hung from above, it has the exact same center of gravity. the only thing that lowers the center of gravity is lowering the mass.

sit on the top tube - does wonders for the speed, do not do this with a water bottle in the back pocket - learned yesterday