I was really surprised, while reading another post, with the number of posters who didn't realize that you need to trim the front shifter.

Shimano - For a triple there are 5 positions with the front shifter - 2 for the inner, 2 for the middle and 1 for the outer ring. For a double there are 2 positions for each ring. As you go across the cogs in the rear, you need to 1/2-click the front derailleur to avoid rubbing. If yours does not have these positions, it is not adjusted correctly.

Campy - The non-indexed front shifter has many small clicks so that you can position the front derailleur in small increments as needed. The system is designed to move the front derailleur back and forth as you shift the rear across the cogs.

TF

Can we sticky this?

I was really surprised, while reading another post, with the number of posters who didn't realize that you need to trim the front shifter.

Shimano - For a triple there are 5 positions with the front shifter - 2 for the inner, 2 for the middle and 1 for the outer ring. For a double there are 2 positions for each ring. As you go across the cogs in the rear, you need to 1/2-click the front derailleur to avoid rubbing. If yours does not have these positions, it is not adjusted correctly.

Campy - The non-indexed front shifter has many small clicks so that you can position the front derailleur in small increments as needed. The system is designed to move the front derailleur back and forth as you shift the rear across the cogs.

TF

Can we sticky this?

My shifters don't make noise. What are these clicks you refer to? :rolleyes:

I admit that after years of riding my current STI equipped rides, I had no idea there was a trim for the large ring. What is the necessary adjustment to enable that to come back into play????

I was really surprised, while reading another post, with the number of posters who didn't realize that you need to trim the front shifter.

Shimano - For a triple there are 5 positions with the front shifter - 2 for the inner, 2 for the middle and 1 for the outer ring. For a double there are 2 positions for each ring. As you go across the cogs in the rear, you need to 1/2-click the front derailleur to avoid rubbing. If yours does not have these positions, it is not adjusted correctly.

Campy - The non-indexed front shifter has many small clicks so that you can position the front derailleur in small increments as needed. The system is designed to move the front derailleur back and forth as you shift the rear across the cogs.

TF

Can we sticky this?

I don't ever need to trim my big ring. If you keep it from cross chaining there shouldn't be a need.

Don't the new Campy Escape shifters (everything but Record and Chorus) have a more widely-spaced positions, but a smaller number of them, for the front derailleur?

I never knew of trimming my front derailer. I admit I have had to push on the front brifters to keep from rubbing/cross chaining but I have never noticed a seperate click. I will have to take a look when I get home. I will admit I almost never shift out of the big ring in the part of Florida I live in. It's flat as a pancake but I will check.

I'm really suprised in reading this post that the OP has never heard of SRAM. No trim for the large chainring based on front derailleur design. There is trim for small chainring. I never use it - no rubbing for the 3-4 cogs I use while in the small chainring.

I don't know nobody who doesn't like a little trim.

Don't the new Campy Escape shifters (everything but Record and Chorus) have a more widely-spaced positions, but a smaller number of them, for the front derailleur?

I only played with the new Centaur ergo lever on a bike in a shop, but the first click of the thumb button worked just like shimano's finger lever. It sends the the FD far to the left in one motion and shifts the chain to the little ring. Once on the little ring, I suppose the finger lever will move it back to the right slightly. I saw no way to trim the FD to the left once on the big ring. One poster claims it can be done by readjusting the cable tension, but that make no sense to me, since that first click releases enough cable to shift to the little ring, which is 3 clicks on the Record/Chorus ergo lever. That would be a lot of cable travel to serve as a trim click.

A campy ergo lever setup on a double crank used to take 3 clicks to shift from the little ring to the big ring. That means there were only 3 positions: all the way to the right (big ring), a middle position the would serve as a left trim with the chain on the big ring or a right trim for the little ring. Now that they have the quick shift (QS) FD it has to take at least one more click to make the shift, since the lever arm on the FD is longer. Campy claims a lower actuating force and the only way to accomplish that is more clicks with a longer actuating arm. The finger lever on the QS ergo lever engages the cable sooner, but there is no change to the amount of cable pulled per click.

A Campy triple FD requires seven (of twelve) clicks to cover the full range of travel. It works the same with the older ergo lever or the new QS model (I've got both). The QS finger lever merely starts to pull cable sooner, so it requires a shorter stroke to make the 5-click shift from the little ring to the middle ring. There is no reduction in effort since the lever arm length was not changed. The length could not be changed because it takes the maximum 5 clicks with a single sweep of the lever to make the little to middle ring shift. If th elever arm was any longer, it would require two strokes of the finger lever to make this shift.

I never knew of trimming my front derailer. I admit I have had to push on the front brifters to keep from rubbing/cross chaining but I have never noticed a seperate click. I will have to take a look when I get home. I will admit I almost never shift out of the big ring in the part of Florida I live in. It's flat as a pancake but I will check.


more of a 1/2 click..sort of a push if you will..or a nudge...I wouldn't go so far as to say its a rub though...no, definitely not a rub. :D

I trim my big ring on my mountain bike, but I have never used trim on my road bike. Maybe my STI shifter works that way, but I've never needed to use it.

I use it all the time on the middle ring, when I'm in the bigger sprockets in the back. Doesn't seem to do anything on the big ring or granny ring. Of course, as MB-1 points out, you have friction shifters, this is irrelevant.

Now you've done it.
Pretty soon, I won't be able to snicker at riders who are grinding along in their 53X21's.

You don't know what you are missing.

Theoretically, you should be correct, but even on my DA double I find it useful.

What baffles me is you would think this was triple super secret... I thought everyone knew about trim.

I don't ever need to trim my big ring. If you keep it from cross chaining there shouldn't be a need.

. If yours does not have these positions, it is not adjusted correctly.

TF

Can we sticky this?

So what is the correct adjustment, or how do you adjust correctly? I once had it, but no longer do.

You don't know what you are missing.

Theoretically, you should be correct, but even on my DA double I find it useful.

What baffles me is you would think this was triple super secret... I thought everyone knew about trim.

Oh I know you CAN do it, but I've never felt the need to do it on my Campy double...maybe Shimano works different? On a triple it's a different story.

I'm really suprised in reading this post that the OP has never heard of SRAM. No trim for the large chainring based on front derailleur design. There is trim for small chainring. I never use it - no rubbing for the 3-4 cogs I use while in the small chainring.
I believe that the new Red corrects this mistake on their part and does have a trim adjustment. - TF

So what is the correct adjustment, or how do you adjust correctly? I once had it, but no longer do.

I wish I could explain it. For me, it's a matter of having the bike on the stand and adjusting the tension as well as the limiter screws in order to get the trim the way I want.

Perhaps someone else will be able to give a step-by-step explanation. If not, you can try the Park Tools website or perhaps a Google search. Also check your local bookstore.

I think it's worth the trouble to learn this. You can set up the trim to suit your riding style and it often saves a FULL up or down shift in the front derailleur.

For example, I have my drive train set up so a half-click produces no chain rub in 39x16 and 39x15 (I rarely use the the 39x15 and I see no point in going to the 39x14 and so on). This effectively means I do NOT have access to all cogs when in the 39 ring.

It's a sacrifice, however, my derailleur cage is now set up in such a way that I can go - without any trim - 55x11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 27 (again, I'm never in the 55x27; however, it's nice knowing the option is there)

EDIT: I just put my bike on the stand and there is smallest possible gap when I'm in 55x27. This most likely means there will be chain rub when actually riding in this gear.

I had no idea it was there until 2 weeks after I got my bike(105s), I thought my FD needed a cable adjustment because it took two clicks to drop it on the small ring. Before adjusting the cable I looked it up on the Shimano site. I wish they would put it on their MTB DRs!

You can trim the big ring on Escape, though for some reason it's not documented well. Maybe because it's easy to do, but hard to explain. First, move the finger lever over to the right to take up the system slack. Then trip the thumb button, and finally release the tension on the finger lever. Drops to a position that is higher than either of the two intermediate clicks found when going from the bottom up.

Turbo Turtle - I am glad you posted this. I've had my Felt f60 Ultegra Triple for 2 years and didn't know anything about these intermediate trim shifts. I would accidentally get into one and think I had messed up my shift. My LBS didn't mention it, and it's not mentioned in the generic owner's manual. I learn something new every day. Good post!

Red says it'll have the 1 trim position that exists, in the big ring, instead of the small ring, or something.

I personally will never understand what the deal is with this, or why it's a problem or "mistake." It never rubs in the big ring anyway, on my bikes. The SRAM f/dr cage is pretty wide...

I was really surprised, while reading another post, with the number of posters who didn't realize that you need to trim the front shifter.

Shimano - For a triple there are 5 positions with the front shifter - 2 for the inner, 2 for the middle and 1 for the outer ring. For a double there are 2 positions for each ring. As you go across the cogs in the rear, you need to 1/2-click the front derailleur to avoid rubbing. If yours does not have these positions, it is not adjusted correctly.

Campy - The non-indexed front shifter has many small clicks so that you can position the front derailleur in small increments as needed. The system is designed to move the front derailleur back and forth as you shift the rear across the cogs.

TF

Can we sticky this?


Wow, I had no idea of the apparent uniqueness of this knowledge.

MAKE IT STICK!

Your information about positioons for Shimano triple is not completely correct, they differs for different shifters, look here
<CENTER>http://www.velonews.com/images/report/13092.20047.f.jpg</CENTER>

I have had my Ultegra triple for 5 years. I use mainly the middle ring. I wish there was trim on the big ring so that I could use it more often.

Your information about positioons for Shimano triple is not completely correct, they differs for different shifters, look here
<CENTER>http://www.velonews.com/images/report/13092.20047.f.jpg</CENTER>

Is identifying information on the derailleur and shifters? Also, what is the source of the chart?

Is identifying information on the derailleur and shifters? Also, what is the source of the chart?

About identifying information I'm not sure. Source is Leonard Zinn,
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/13092.0.html

Is identifying information on the derailleur and shifters? Also, what is the source of the chart?
The shifter model number is in the plastic under the rubber on the shifters. - TF

Thanks TT and a10-- very timely and valuable information.

You can trim the big ring on Escape, though for some reason it's not documented well. Maybe because it's easy to do, but hard to explain. First, move the finger lever over to the right to take up the system slack. Then trip the thumb button, and finally release the tension on the finger lever. Drops to a position that is higher than either of the two intermediate clicks found when going from the bottom up.

I believe, you, but it sounds overly difficult. I'd rather tap the thumb button and be done with it. I'd be real intereted to know what gyrations are required for trimming a triple.

WTF is this about?

WTF is this about?
I have an '83 Paramount with DA DTs. I never ride it. Waste of a good frame. - TF

I believe, you, but it sounds overly difficult. I'd rather tap the thumb button and be done with it. I'd be real intereted to know what gyrations are required for trimming a triple.

Agreed there. It's not tough, but more than it needs to be. In this regard, Escape is certainly not an improvement. On the other hand, it hardly matters - I don't actually need to do that trim. I can cross big-big without it - not that I make a practice of it.

Then again, I use an Ultegra fd on that bike, which are more sensibly designed than Campy has been in the past. It appears Campy is addressing their FD shortcomings in 2008, so I may finally be able to finish the conversion properly. Time will tell.

On a triple, you have one position in the granny, three in the middle, and one in the top, per the documentation. The drop from big to middle lands you in the lowest middle position, with two finger click trims upward. (the undocumented one is there also.) I wasn't able to make the extra drop-trim happen from middle to small, but I don't know if it was an adjustment issue or that it's simply not there. (I don't have a triple on that bike, so this was a case of backing out the limit screw and seeing what would happen.)

I don't ever need to trim my big ring. If you keep it from cross chaining there shouldn't be a need.

I think thats why its there.

The posts in this thread should make it clear that the Shimano shifter setup is not only more difficult to do properly, the shifters aren't all that easy to operate, even when properly adjusted. Some long time users don't even know they have trim positions.

You won't have any such setup or operating problems with Campy. Anyone can push the thumb button down all the way, attach the shift cable, then increase cable tension until the shift from the little ring the big ring double executes with a single sweep of the finger lever. It's just about impossible to do incorrectly and the adjustment will probably not need to be changed all season. I have a LOOK 585 frame with no cable tension adjusters and mine stays adjusted all season. All the clicks on a Campy shifter are the same. There are no "soft" or partial clicks that are easily missed.

The posts in this thread should make it clear that the Shimano shifter setup is not only more difficult to do properly, the shifters aren't all that easy to operate, even when properly adjusted....

Especially it is clear from reading post from danl1 :)
Speking seriously, where you have noticed problems during operations of shimano shifters? From fact that some riders do not know about trimming capability due to the fact that their setup perfectly operates without its usage? Funny :)

And if you so like thumb buttons then Shimanop Sora should perfectly satisfy all your needs - and for much lower price as Campy counterparts :)

The posts in this thread should make it clear that the Shimano shifter setup is not only more difficult to do properly, the shifters aren't all that easy to operate, even when properly adjusted. Some long time users don't even know they have trim positions.

You won't have any such setup or operating problems with Campy. Anyone can push the thumb button down all the way, attach the shift cable, then increase cable tension until the shift from the little ring the big ring double executes with a single sweep of the finger lever. It's just about impossible to do incorrectly and the adjustment will probably not need to be changed all season. I have a LOOK 585 frame with no cable tension adjusters and mine stays adjusted all season. All the clicks on a Campy shifter are the same. There are no "soft" or partial clicks that are easily missed.
Gotta call BS on this one. al0's irony comes through clear. Why not just go all the way back to friction. Also, I dont believe your "Anyone can" instructions are even in the Campy instructions. - TF

When you use the big ring and the 23 in the rear, it would rub. The 21 may or may not rub.

That said, I forgot about the trim sometimes but yeah, you can do it.

Also, I ride using the small ring lately with a 15 or 16 rear and spin really fast.

I've gotten used to the STI, but as I think back to when I used friction, it really was a better system. Straight forward without the complications. It took a certain skill to do correctly (hitting the right gear, overshifting), but soon became second nature. Anyone could take it apart for cleaning, etc. There was a certain inner satisfaction in making the perfect shift.

Especially it is clear from reading post from danl1 :)
Speking seriously, where you have noticed problems during operations of shimano shifters? From fact that some riders do not know about trimming capability due to the fact that their setup perfectly operates without its usage? Funny :)

And if you so like thumb buttons then Shimanop Sora should perfectly satisfy all your needs - and for much lower price as Campy counterparts :)

I should have excluded the new Centaur and cheaper Campy models. I think they suck too!

No one needs trim is they avoid the right gear combos.

As for the cost of shifters, Campy's are generally much cheaper at any level, if you make an apples to apples comparison. I paid $268 for 2007 Record shifters.

I should have excluded the new Centaur and cheaper Campy models. I think they suck too!

No one needs trim is they avoid the right gear combos.

As for the cost of shifters, Campy's are generally much cheaper at any level, if you make an apples to apples comparison. I paid $268 for 2007 Record shifters.

Do not know US prices for sure, but in Germany prices of Campy mostly are slightly higher then for compyrabe Shimano. Shifters are some exception from this rule as for them prices are very similar for both manufacturers. BTW, as far as I know Campy in US is somewhat overpriced, so it shall be more expensive then Shimano.

Anyway, when I have written about "much lower price" I was jocking as Sora is cheapest from Shimano road groups and hardly usable.

The price for Shimano shifters is MUCH higher than Campy in the USA.


http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=7&major=1&minor=20

The price for Shimano shifters is MUCH higher than Campy in the USA.


http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?page=7&major=1&minor=20

I see. Here it is not so, http://bike-components.de/catalog/Road/Shifter?osCsid=a44c19881bebf2fd3e1fd36616fb7830 -Record and DA cost identically (229EUR), Ultegra is cheaper then Chorus (179 and 199 EUR respectively),
105 is more expensive then Centauer (149 against 128). On average, prices are the same.

Gotta call BS on this one. al0's irony comes through clear. Why not just go all the way back to friction. Also, I dont believe your "Anyone can" instructions are even in the Campy instructions. - TF

I haven't read them in years, but Campy's instructions are well known for lack of clarity. They must be poorly translated from Italian and/or written by a poor technical writer. Setting up the shifters and derailleurs is so simple a caveman could do it! Improper cable tension won't make clicks or trimming ability disappear with Campy shifters.

Here's the worst case scenario. With a double FD, insufficient cable tension results in one more click required to to take up the slack that should have been adjusted out with the barrel adjuster. Other than that, the shifter works exactly the same.

With a triple FD, the cable tension must be adequate to complete the 5-click shift from the little ring to the middle ring with one sweep of the finger lever. Worst case, with inadequte tension, it requires two sweeps to make the shift, but nothing else changes after the chain is on the middle ring. There is no loss of trimming ability. I once read a complaint from a Campy user that it took two sweeps of the finger lever to make this shift. This was before I owned a triple. When I got my first Campy triple, I quickly figured out the problem (inadequate cable tension) and posted my own, CLEAR, instructions on how simple the setup was.

this isn't the first time that you've made claims about shimano's inadequacy, yet you have admitted in the past that you don't use them and haven't set them up yourself. It's a little disingenuous to make claims about Campy's superiority over something that you don't use, haven't used and never set up yourself.

I find your comments about campy informative, I find your opinions about shimano very uninformed and extremely biased.

Just to give a context for your comments.

len

My old RSX brifter didn't have a trim function. Now I have a friction downtube shifter and can trim away.

Is there such a beast? If not, probably not enough demand to pay for R&D, marketing, etc. It would be a great invention, I would trash my current set-up for such a thing if it was well made and worked.

more of a 1/2 click..sort of a push if you will..or a nudge...I wouldn't go so far as to say its a rub though...no, definitely not a rub. :D


What I love is when in the middle upper on my triple, and I click to shift down it jumps to the inner 30 tooth. ARGH!!

I was really surprised, while reading another post, with the number of posters who didn't realize that you need to trim the front shifter.

Shimano - For a triple there are 5 positions with the front shifter - 2 for the inner, 2 for the middle and 1 for the outer ring. For a double there are 2 positions for each ring. As you go across the cogs in the rear, you need to 1/2-click the front derailleur to avoid rubbing. If yours does not have these positions, it is not adjusted correctly.

Campy - The non-indexed front shifter has many small clicks so that you can position the front derailleur in small increments as needed. The system is designed to move the front derailleur back and forth as you shift the rear across the cogs.

TF

Can we sticky this?


If there was a better name for it, people might understand better.

I personally thought for a long time it was only on the 30tooth that I had 2 shifts.

This 10 spd triple deraiuller on my 9 spd system blows. I have it all the way at the top. It rubs in 52x23 enough to sound annoying, and it really rubs in 52x11.. sometimes I can cock the shifter in 53x12 to get rid of some of the rubbing. Cable adjustment will through everything else off. Sucks big time.

Is anyone actually able to get five positions with a Shimano triple and if so, any tips? I seem to be able to get only four, with one low, two middle and one high. Seems to work fine but I guess I'm missing something.

Now I'm perplexed as (Heck)! I did a thorough run through of my FD specifically to check out the trim system. Checked it numerous times, and every time I come up with a total of 6, yes 6, seperate FD positions. It is an Ultegra triple. From Small to Large, I have: Small, trim,Medium, trim,Large for 5. Going from Large to Medium there is one trim, making 6. From Medium to Small, no trim. So, am I a complete idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, or what? Could my cable be so out of adjustment that what I think is a full shift should actually be a trim and vice versa? That's the only explanation I can come up with. ADDED NEXT DAY: I hit the road today to do an adjustment and thorough check out of the shifting system. The adjustment was straight forward and it works like a champ. I have a new respect for my Ultegra 30 spd now. I was not aware of the trim located OUTSIDE the large ring, so that makes a total 7 derailer positions. So none of chart depictions correspond to my system, but it works great anyhow.

If there was a better name for it, people might understand better.

I personally thought for a long time it was only on the 30tooth that I had 2 shifts.

This 10 spd triple deraiuller on my 9 spd system blows. I have it all the way at the top. It rubs in 52x23 enough to sound annoying, and it really rubs in 52x11.. sometimes I can cock the shifter in 53x12 to get rid of some of the rubbing. Cable adjustment will through everything else off. Sucks big time.
Is your 9-s triple a 52/42/30? I tried a 10-s FD (FD-6603) and the cage would hit the 42 ring when I tried to go to the 52. - TF

this isn't the first time that you've made claims about shimano's inadequacy, yet you have admitted in the past that you don't use them and haven't set them up yourself. It's a little disingenuous to make claims about Campy's superiority over something that you don't use, haven't used and never set up yourself.

I find your comments about campy informative, I find your opinions about shimano very uninformed and extremely biased.

Just to give a context for your comments.

len

Keep reading the additional posts from shimano users who can't find all those trim positions. As one person put it, "it's not a click, more of a half or soft shift". Comments like those support my comments. Why can't they find these position? Are their shifters worn out? If so, then they can buy new ones. I can repair an ergo lever if it malfunctions. Since I wisely don't use shimano, I don't have a problem with missing trim positions. Campy has no dedicated trim positions, just twelve identical clicks that will never be missed or inoperative due to a cable tension problem.

Setting up the cable tension on a Campy shifter is incredibly simple. If a shimano shifter requires anything more than attaching the shift cable, starting with the shifter in the cable-fully-released position, followed by a gradual increase in tension, then there's more to it than Campy's setup. Those two steps will get an ergo lever operating properly in a few minutes.

Keep reading the additional posts from shimano users who can't find all those trim positions. As one person put it, "it's not a click, more of a half or soft shift". Comments like those support my comments. Why can't they find these position? Are their shifters worn out? If so, then they can buy new ones. I can repair an ergo lever if it malfunctions. Since I wisely don't use shimano, I don't have a problem with missing trim positions. Campy has no dedicated trim positions, just twelve identical clicks that will never be missed or inoperative due to a cable tension problem.

Setting up the cable tension on a Campy shifter is incredibly simple. If a shimano shifter requires anything more than attaching the shift cable, starting with the shifter in the cable-fully-released position, followed by a gradual increase in tension, then there's more to it than Campy's setup. Those two steps will get an ergo lever operating properly in a few minutes.

are newbies &/or have been set up by inexperienced Mechs.

I have both Camoy & Shimano. I've set both up from scratch. I've changed cables and rings on both. Shimano is easier to set up, Campy can be finicky to set up for me. Some of that is experience, some is canmpy. All of that being said, the difference is negligible. To conclude that there is a significant advantage to Campy without having worked with it yourself is again, IMO disingenuous. You have credibility on this board which you have earned based on your fitting knowledge. At least qualify your opinion with an acknokledgement of your experience or lack of experience.

I've shown many new riders how to "trim" the shimano FD. It takes about 20 seconds to teach them on the bike. Most LBS never bring this up.

I personally find the Campy trim stop points annoying....especially when shifting rings...but I'm sure that is because I have more experience on Campy. The opposite is probably true for you.

Both groups work extremely well. Both have their quirks. IMO, the most significant differences are ergonomics of the hoods and aestetics.

YMMV

Len

Is your 9-s triple a 52/42/30? I tried a 10-s FD (FD-6603) and the cage would hit the 42 ring when I tried to go to the 52. - TF

Yes, that is the problem when set low..

Raising it all the way to the top gets you over the 42...

I've had a some what big discussion in components/wrenching about getting a 39 in there...but I don't think it is going to happen. I'm kind of stuck with 30/42/52, else I'll be mixing A/B type and God only knows what else.

Is anyone actually able to get five positions with a Shimano triple and if so, any tips? I seem to be able to get only four, with one low, two middle and one high. Seems to work fine but I guess I'm missing something.

Yes, I have all 5.. but I never need to the one in the 30 tooth.

It's a half click shift up in the 30tooth.

It's always fun though when it wants to goto the next upper ring and won't catch until you apply a little more shifter pressure.

Yes, that is the problem when set low..

Raising it all the way to the top gets you over the 42...

I've had a some what big discussion in components/wrenching about getting a 39 in there...but I don't think it is going to happen. I'm kind of stuck with 30/42/52, else I'll be mixing A/B type and God only knows what else.
A set of 10-speed triple rings would be 52/39/30 and should work fine. Problem is that just one 39 ring will cost more than what you have to pay for a brand new, complete 6503 crankset. I've been thinking of giving the grinder a try. - TF

A set of 10-speed triple rings would be 52/39/30 and should work fine. Problem is that just one 39 ring will cost more than what you have to pay for a brand new, complete 6503 crankset. I've been thinking of giving the grinder a try. - TF

Do I still stick with the 9 speed chain ?

I don't really like trying out new parts. My 9 spd FD was trashed when I boogered the threads inside the FD.

I have a new 52/42/30 ready to go for someday that I got from nashbar for $70.

Maybe I just need to go probikekit/durace.

Why don't you post some clear, concise instructions on setting up a Shimano left shifter and FD for those newbs and inexperienced mechanics? I'd truly like to be as experienced as you are and understand if there is really a difference in the setup technique.

All FDs I've setup have the same requirement for the cage to 1-3mm above the big ring, with the outer cage parallel to the big ring. Setting the upper and lower limit screws shouldn't be any different. You have to avoid chain rub in the little ring and largest cog and avoid tossing the chain off the big ring.

I like to have the RD setup first, so I can shift to the largest cog and adjust the low limit screw without the FD cable not attached. I also move the FD cage to the far right, by hand and at least get the high limit screw in the ballpark. If there is a frame mounted tension adjuster, it should be screwed all the way down before the shift cable is attached to the FD. Next I attach the FD cable, pulling it tight before tightening the clamp bolt. At that point you can try shifting from the little ring to the middle, but there there should be a need for more cable tension. With a Campy triple FD, it might be as much as four turns.
When you get enough tension, a single full sweep of the shifter lever (5-clicks) will execute the shift to the middle ring. Normal operation of the ergo lever then requires 1 click on the thumb button to eliminate chain rub. To shift to the big ring, swing the finger lever as far as it will go. This should shift the chain into the big ring and as far right as the FD can go. If the chain won't shift onto the big ring, then the limit screw needs to be backed out until it does. Back it out too much and the chain can be thrown off the right. The last thing to do is shift back to the little ring and largest cog to be sure that there is still no chain rub on the the left side of the FD cage. Too much cable tension can lift lever arm off the low limit screw and cause some chain rub.

Why don't you post some clear, concise instructions on setting up a Shimano left shifter and FD for those newbs and inexperienced mechanics? I'd truly like to be as experienced as you are and understand if there is really a difference in the setup technique.

All FDs I've setup have the same requirement for the cage to 1-3mm above the big ring, with the outer cage parallel to the big ring. Setting the upper and lower limit screws shouldn't be any different. You have to avoid chain rub in the little ring and largest cog and avoid tossing the chain off the big ring.

I like to have the RD setup first, so I can shift to the largest cog and adjust the low limit screw without the FD cable not attached. I also move the FD cage to the far right, by hand and at least get the high limit screw in the ballpark. If there is a frame mounted tension adjuster, it should be screwed all the way down before the shift cable is attached to the FD. Next I attach the FD cable, pulling it tight before tightening the clamp bolt. At that point you can try shifting from the little ring to the middle, but there there should be a need for more cable tension. With a Campy triple FD, it might be as much as four turns.
When you get enough tension, a single full sweep of the shifter lever (5-clicks) will execute the shift to the middle ring. Normal operation of the ergo lever then requires 1 click on the thumb button to eliminate chain rub. To shift to the big ring, swing the finger lever as far as it will go. This should shift the chain into the big ring and as far right as the FD can go. If the chain won't shift onto the big ring, then the limit screw needs to be backed out until it does. Back it out too much and the chain can be thrown off the right. The last thing to do is shift back to the little ring and largest cog to be sure that there is still no chain rub on the the left side of the FD cage. Too much cable tension can lift lever arm off the low limit screw and cause some chain rub.

I just follow the Shimano instructions fo installation of the FD (http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/SI_5JC0A_001/SI_5JC0A_001_EN_v1_m56577569830621288.PDF )
The key is step2....too much tension at this point throws everything off & step 4. The first time doing step 4 takes a little time, but after you do it it makes perfect sense. When a friend brings me a bike where they are having trouble with the intermediate trims, it's always because step 4 was not done right.

Len
BTW, it' snot about being an expert, rather, it's about doing it more than once. Just like you got competent on the Campy setup.

I had the same experience as TurboTurtle. The 10 speed FD will not clear the 42 ring unless it's mounted really high. A grinder sounds like a good idea. Also, Ultegra and 105 9 speed FDs are on Ebay for less than a new 39 ring.

I have changed cables numerous times over the years on my old 7410 D/A STIs, and never had any problem setting it up for trimming.

If nothing else, the Shimano instructions prove my point that the setup is more finicky than a Campy ergo lever and triple FD. There are no checks to be made in the middle ring and largest cog (step 4.) or step 5. There are also fewer possible problems to trouble shoot. The first and last items pertain to any shifter and FD setup. The only other troubleshooting item for a Campy triple would be a failure to shift from the little to middle ring with one sweep of the finger lever, which is cured with more cable tension.

If nothing else, the Shimano instructions prove my point that the setup is more finicky than a Campy ergo lever and triple FD. There are no checks to be made in the middle ring and largest cog (step 4.) or step 5. There are also fewer possible problems to trouble shoot. The first and last items pertain to any shifter and FD setup. The only other troubleshooting item for a Campy triple would be a failure to shift from the little to middle ring with one sweep of the finger lever, which is cured with more cable tension.

maybe the instructions are better.:idea:

Having done both installations, they take about the same time, and as I said before, setting up Campy has been more of an art for me than Shimano. I have found Campy to be more finicky....but I suspect that is as much to do with fewer repititions than I've had on Shimano than anything.

I have had to adjust the trim stops in the middle ring every time I've set up a Campy triple. I suspect it's getting the initial cable tension wrong, but it has required adjusting....nowhere in the campy instructions does it tell you how to do this. I've had to strat over a couple of times.

Just as Campy is more finicky for me, I suspect your first few Shimano installs might be finisky. The good news is that you as an engineer, would be able to follow the Shimano instructions.

Len

I don't ever need to trim my big ring. If you keep it from cross chaining there shouldn't be a need.When my Ultegra FD (with 53/39 rings and 9-speed 12-25 cassette) is properly adjusted (meaning the way I like it), whether I'm on the small or big ring, I need to trim the FD when I change between the fourth and third-smallest cogs.

If I adjust the FD so the trim point is closer to the middle of the cassette, it doesn't shift as smoothly and tends to drop the chain when I downshift to the small ring.

If I set it up the way I like it, I can race hard, climb hard, and almost never get a bad shift.

It's nice that you don't have to trim the front ring with your FD adjusted the way you like it, but with different bikes and different rider preferences, one size does not fit all.

So for me, a properly adjusted FD needs trim on the front ring unless I define cross-chaining in a pretty weird way.

The reason I say that there is no middle ring checking required is because a properly setup Campy triple FD will not shift the chain off the middle ring until the last of the 7 clicks is executed. Technically, you shouldn't use the middle ring and largest cog due to the extreme chainline. I do it occasionally, but if I really need a 39/25 I shift to my 28/17 or 28/19. You should also never have to use the next to last click for trimming. I just checked my setup and there are TWO spare clicks left after I've eliminated any rub in the middle ring and largest cog. Then it takes another click to make the shift to the little ring. That tells me that checking the position of the cage in between the far left and far right is of no value at all. It's just not possible to get the proper one-sweep shift to the middle ring and have something off in between.

As you noted, I've setup a lot Campy triple FD's in just the last four years. I've never bothered to check any of them to see where the FD cage sits in any position except all the way the right (big ring limit screw) and all the way to the left (little ring limit screw). All I do is gradually increase cable tension until I get the little ring to middle ring shift to execute with one sweep of the finger lever. I do double check to make sure that tension doesn't hold the lever arm off the little ring limit screw and cause chain rub in the little ring and largest cog. That's really all there is to it. The only "trick" to shifting the FD, once it's adjusted is to always push the thumb button at least 1 clcik after shifting from the little ring to the middle. Executing the shift require the FD to overtravel, but there is no built-in "return" of the cage to a centered position over the middle ring. That has to be done manually.

I've found that Campy's instructins are too poor to even bother reading.

Setting up the FD with no frame mounted cable tension adjuster is harder, but not as hard as I thought it might be. I just turn the low limit screw in 1/2 to 3/4 turn before I attach the cable, then return it to the proper position after attaching the cable. If you're lucky, you'll get enough cable tension quickly.

I personally love a nice bit of trim......crosschaining FTW!

I was still in the camp of "this thread is all b.s.", then I went to the garage and played with my Wife's 105 equipped C-dale. It's pretty cool! She got home from work to find me playing with her bike and asked, "something wrong?". I showed her the tricks to trimming the FD and she was amazed. I checked my RSX equipped C-dale and (no surprise) it didn't have the trim function. Oh well.

At least I got tell my Wife, as she left for her ride tonight, "Have fun playing with your trim!"

:D

I've gotten used to the STI, but as I think back to when I used friction, it really was a better system. Straight forward without the complications. It took a certain skill to do correctly (hitting the right gear, overshifting), but soon became second nature. Anyone could take it apart for cleaning, etc. There was a certain inner satisfaction in making the perfect shift.

+1,000. I miss my friction shifters. I always knew whether I could thump whomever I was riding with just by listening to their shifts.

to me why there is a trim position on the RIGHT side of my big ring? The charts on this thread also show it. What purpose does it serve?

to me why there is a trim position on the RIGHT side of my big ring? The charts on this thread also show it. What purpose does it serve?

it's to avoid chain rub in the Big Ring/Smallest Cog combo. Some people may have there front derailleur set up in such a way that there is very little gap in this combo because they're rarely in it. However, on those rare occasions they are in it, it's obviously important to avoid any unnecessary friction.

it's to avoid chain rub in the Big Ring/Smallest Cog combo. Some people may have there front derailleur set up in such a way that there is very little gap in this combo because they're rarely in it. However, on those rare occasions they are in it, it's obviously important to avoid any unnecessary friction.
But it is OUTSIDE the big ring high adjustment screw. To use it I would have to unscrew that adjustment to where the chain would shift off the ring into the crank.

But it is OUTSIDE the big ring high adjustment screw. To use it I would have to unscrew that adjustment to where the chain would shift off the ring into the crank.

and I'm not going to pursue it because, as I stated in my very first post on this thread, it's rather complicated and I really need to have the bike on the stand and tinker.

But it is OUTSIDE the big ring high adjustment screw. To use it I would have to unscrew that adjustment to where the chain would shift off the ring into the crank.
AH-I see. My FD cable should be adjusted so the FD shifts the chain to the large ring properly WITHOUT HITTING the high stop. The high stop would instead be adjusted to correspond to that high trim position. Am I getting this right?

AH-I see. My FD cable should be adjusted so the FD shifts the chain to the large ring properly WITHOUT HITTING the high stop. The high stop would instead be adjusted to correspond to that high trim position. Am I getting this right?
Maybe. The first sentence is correct. Your cable is currently too tight. The stops, however, are safety mechanisms only and should not be used to adjust shifting (with the possible exeption of a 1/8th turm MAX the outside). - TF

OK, I understand and will adjust it, but I don't think I will ever need that outside trim.

OK, I understand and will adjust it, but I don't think I will ever need that outside trim.
If you like it the way it is, leave it that way. There are no trim police that I know of (except Grumpy, maybe). I often adjust my triple so that I can use the center ring all the way across the back without trimming (yes, even x-chained) and use the other two however they turn out. That way I can ride the 42 nearly all day without ever touching the left shifter. Lazy maybe, but so what. The intent of this posting was only to make everyone aware. - TF

Maybe I am missing something, but I can never use the big chainring and more than the first three for four smaller cogs without chain rub.
If it can be done, please advise

My bike shop practices "don't ask, don't tell" cycling knowledge retaining.

For instance, I've been riding 105 9-speed for 4 years and I know there are fine
adjustments but I had no clue about "half clicks". I just sort of figured out how
to shift and brake without anyone giving me any information on it whatsoever,
I just watched other riders too.

Also, my drivetrain is generally unearthly quiet. It just gets used a lot and I
generally lubricate it when it needs it and leave it alone when it does. I'll
occasionally degrease it but I presume the shop knew what it was doing
when it built the thing up.

Yes, you should be able to set it up to get chain rub on only the inner (largest) 2 cogs, OR SO, if that's the way you want it set up. I am using my 10 spd, 3 ring as an example. You need to adjust your FD cable to move the FD toward the smaller ring, a little at a time by loosening the cable tension. With that setup I also get no rub in the middle ring on any cog. On the small ring, I get rub when shifted to the 2 smallest cogs. In all cases of rub, it is on combinations I seldom use and can be easily trimmed out. The best way to do this (for me) was not on a stand, but while on the road. If you just CANNOT get it adjusted, the cable may be sticking or the FD turned a little on the seat tube, but probably it is just a case of getting the cable tension right. If you use the large ring and larger cog combinations most often, you can keep adjusting the FD on the large ring further to the left and you will start getting more rub on the small cogs and less on the large. Again, this rub can be trimmed out. I was lucky to get mine adjusted quickly the way I wanted it, but I can see it could really be a pain trying to get the adjustments to work the way you want on all ring/cog combinations and still get good shifting.

I don't know nobody who doesn't like a little trim.

Just read this ROTFLMAO! wonder how many people get it?

Yeah, Yeah, We all got. Then moved on.