I contemplated posting this in Teh Lounge but deemed it too controversial to survive there. Most of you are probably familiar with the breaking story about the New England Patriots, lead by Bill Belichick, spying on the New York Jets by videotaping their defensive signals. Roger Goodell, head of the NFL, has concluded Belichick and the Patriots broke NFL rules against spying. If you were Goodell what would you do? Should Belichick be sent packing? Should the team be penalized by losing draft picks? Should there be a monetary penalty? Should the Krafts (Chairman, CEO and President) do anything?

As an analogy, if you were the chairman of the SEC and caught the CEO of a company spying on another company (and spying was against SEC rules) would the CEO be around long? What would the company do?

personally, i don't see it as a big deal. stealing signs is part of the game. videotaping it probably crossed the line, but i wouldn't go overboard with the discipline. i'm sure they're not the only team doing it.

I think they should be sanctioned, if guilty, according to the rules. It's that simple. I also think the rule is stupid.

personally, i don't see it as a big deal. stealing signs is part of the game. videotaping it probably crossed the line, but i wouldn't go overboard with the discipline. i'm sure they're not the only team doing it.

they put the cameraman <i>on the opposite team's sideline</i>. that's got to be a first. typical belichick too. no punishment is too severe, im(heavily biased)o. I like terell davis's suggestion about putting the franchise "on probation". no playoffs, no superbowl. take a draft pick or 10 too. they were warned.

stealing signs is part of the game.

Zactly! I think the teams should be trying to steal the signals.

I don't see the big deal. The defensive signals are made in public, with no attempt at concealment. Anyone can see them. Anyone can videotape them. If the signals are so secret, hide them.

This doesn't compare at all with a company vs. company spying. A more accurate analogy is some guy having a cell phone conversation in a restaurant accusing some other customer of spying on him because the customer can overhear him.

they put the cameraman on the opposite team's sideline. that's got to be a first. typical belichick too. no punishment is too severe, im(heavily biased)o. I like terell davis's suggestion about putting the franchise "on probation". no playoffs, no superbowl. take a draft pick or 10 too. they were warned.

So what! As long as they were wearing their uniforms underneath, it's all good under the Geneva Convention. :D

I'm a patriots fan, but this is pretty bad.

I say the game shouldn't count as a win (not a loss, perhaps a tie or just expunge it from the records) and they should lose some draft picks. Maybe suspend Belichick for a game or two, but that's getting harsh.

they put the cameraman <i>on the opposite team's sideline</i>. that's got to be a first. typical belichick too. no punishment is too severe, im(heavily biased)o. I like terell davis's suggestion about putting the franchise "on probation". no playoffs, no superbowl. take a draft pick or 10 too. they were warned.The Pats may be the best team in the league, and barring them from the playoffs at the outset de-legitimizes every game they play in and the playoffs that follow. This is without doubt the proverbial cure that is worse than the disease. Fines are fine, suspensions of coaches are fine, stripping of draft picks are fine, but making a mockery of the season is inadvisable.

The rule is not self-evidently justified, so I am not of the view that severe penalties are warranted, although if I read Belichick's statement a few more times, I might change my mind.

But the signals are made in c0d3 and, supposedly, can't be deciphered by just anyone. Second, it's against the rules of the NFL. Like them or not, whether everyone else breaks them or not, they got caught. Should the rule just be ignored? Is videotaping crossing the line but using binoculars and writing them down ok? DOES everyone else really break this rule? ( I know my beloved Packers woulnd't do such a dastardly thing).

Ok, don't compare it to corporate spying. Compare it to using performance enhancing drugs. If everyone else does it, it's ok? The cell phone analogy is weak. There's lots of money, glory, fame and fortune at stake in the NFL.

doping in pro cycling

steroids in pro baseball

pro tennis matches are fixed

"faulty" restrictor plates in NASCAR

now stealing signals in the NFL?!

What is the world coming to?

Rules are rules. Heads should most definitely roll. Where does this stop? Saying it is no big deal calls into question why there are rules against it in the first place. Frankly, I believe there is far too much technology in pro football--- who really needs radios? All the instant replay, coaches in skyboxes, etc... they should stick to the game.

The Pats should be forced to use Brady's girlfriend as starting QB for the remainder of the season.

This clear shows the superiority of soccer. There's too many rules and to many poeple on the sidelines in football.

The Pats should be forced to use Brady's girlfriend as starting QB for the remainder of the season.

.

After...the Pats should be forced to use Brady's girlfriend...my mind started to wander and I never got a chance to finish reading your sentence.

After...the Pats should be forced to use Brady's girlfriend...my mind started to wander and I never got a chance to finish reading your sentence.


you just don't like soccer, EVEN though it is a FAR superior sport to Hockey on ANY day of the week....:eek:

As for the pats, they should be punished, they've been caught before, and warned, and I think they should lose their first two picks in the draft next year.:thumbsup:

Coded or not, anyone can decipher the signals. It's not that hard, and someone sufficiently motivated could easily do it. We're talking about a pretty small set of possible signals, so NSA codebreakers are not required.

The cell phone analogy is dead on. These signals are done in public, with no attempt at concealment. It's a stupid rule, for that reason. Essentially, by rule, everyone in the stadium is asked to pretend they don't notice, and if they do notice, won't make any attempt to correlate the signal with the defense. Maybe they need an announcement before the game: Please avert your eyes from the signal callers! It's stupid, and a harsh penalty would only underscore how stupid it is. And no, I don't support either of the teams involved.

I don't get your drugs analogy. That's a bizarre tangent that has nothing to do with what I said. Did I say or imply that everyone is doing it?

Brady's girlfriend


OMG how I would hit that. I'd even hit Tom Brady first if that's what it took to hit that. Brazillian wimmens are uber hot.

I'm a patriots fan, but this is pretty bad.

I say the game shouldn't count as a win (not a loss, perhaps a tie or just expunge it from the records) and they should lose some draft picks. Maybe suspend Belichick for a game or two, but that's getting harsh.


Here a link to a Sports Illustrated editorial on cheating. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_bamberger/07/10/cheating.essay/index.html

As it states: If the competition isn't legit, if it's based on something we can't see going on behind the scene, then why should we care about the game at all?

If there's no attempt at concealment then why not just yell it out? They don't because the signals are code. Not spy code code but code nonetheless. And it's the videotape, not just the stealing. Should someone be able to intercept and electronically record your cell phone conversation? Besides, whether you think the rule is stupid or not, it's a rule. How do you get around that?

I'd also like to know what the Krafts should do. If one of your employees was caught cheating what would you do? BTW, the corporate spying analogy is pretty spot on. Ever review the HP Board spying saga? That wasn't even against an opponent!

OMG how I would hit that. I'd even hit Tom Brady first if that's what it took to hit that. Brazillian wimmens are uber hot.

Pfft...you amateur...you don't say you would hit it. You post a pic that demonstrates your intention.

Like this!

We obviously aren't talking about the same thing. Intercepting and electronically recording my cell phone call puts you in a whole different category than standing there listening to me talk in public on the street and writing it down. The ability to intercept and record cellphones requires specialized technology and knowledge, and is in fact, illegal without a warrant. There is no law saying I can't write down conversations I hear on the street, even if the people speaking are using code.

I am very familiar with the HP saga. What could that possibly have to do with this?

They didn't just use binocs and write down the plays that were called. They used technology, a video camera, so they could further analyze the signals for the future. You know, technology like intercepting cell phone calls so you can analyze the conversation for the future. Because there is no law saying you can't write down conversations actually bolsters my point. There IS a law (an NFL rule) that says it's illegal (against the rules) to videotape the signals of the opponent. That makes them fundamentally different. Sorry you don't see the analogy between corporate spying and NFL spying. It's not for want of trying.

Basically it comes down to right and wrong, fair and unfair. Games are played and fans are fans based on the premise of fairness. That's where I was going with the drugs in sports analogy. Like the SI story (actually written before the Patriots scandal) says, if fans can't trust the contest is fair then theres no point in being a fan. It's why the Black Socks were banned. It's why it's such a big deal when an NBA ref rigs games. Maybe the Patriot rule breaking doesn't rise to that level but it does cross the line where a fan starts to question the purpose of being a fan. When that happens there goes the sport.

Suspend the coach for one or two games. They ain't gonna pick all that high anyhow.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/sports/AP-FBN-NFL-Spying.html?hp

Let me try to broaden this issue.

Do you think the US is seeing a shift in values, specifically in that there seems to be an "anti-cheating" wave building?

We have this case, where the reaction is pretty big, bigger than many sports writers would have thought. The many reactions to doping, with the latest being the st. louis player who got the mental block as a pitcher and is now hitting up a storm after some HGH (back when it was not against the letter of the rules). That all ties with the reaction to "hypocritical behavior" in politics. We respect to some degree those politicians that stick to their beliefs even when we disagree, but when they show they are not doing so in private it can be seen as "cheating" the people they represent in a way. The many things the adminstration has done that are not, perhaps, by a very debatable interpretation, against the law... but sure seem like cheating. You know, like saying there is no rule against stealing your opponent's money in Monopoly after you snatch a pile of $500s from someone.

Not that I have ever made such a claim myself you understand. :D And I would guess that such a move would cause a severe earthquake in Atlantic City.

So, is there an anti-cheating wave building? Are we as a society going to start to try to live by the spirit of the rules as well as the letter, and reacting more strongly against those that don't?

Let me try to broaden this issue.

Do you think the US is seeing a shift in values, specifically in that there seems to be an "anti-cheating" wave building?

We have this case, where the reaction is pretty big, bigger than many sports writers would have thought. The many reactions to doping, with the latest being the st. louis player who got the mental block as a pitcher and is now hitting up a storm after some HGH (back when it was not against the letter of the rules). That all ties with the reaction to "hypocritical behavior" in politics. We respect to some degree those politicians that stick to their beliefs even when we disagree, but when they show they are not doing so in private it can be seen as "cheating" the people they represent in a way. The many things the adminstration has done that are not, perhaps, by a very debatable interpretation, against the law... but sure seem like cheating. You know, like saying there is no rule against stealing your opponent's money in Monopoly after you snatch a pile of $500s from someone.

Not that I have ever made such a claim myself you understand. :D And I would guess that such a move would cause a severe earthquake in Atlantic City.

So, is there an anti-cheating wave building? Are we as a society going to start to try to live by the spirit of the rules as well as the letter, and reacting more strongly against those that don't?

If you don't cheat a little bit.........ok a lot, in Monoply you can't win. :)

If you don't cheat a little bit.........ok a lot, in Monoply you can't win. :)

The statistical analysis of monopoly is pretty easy, and there is even a book that spells it all out. If you get orange early and stick 3 houses on them, you have a very high chance of winning the whole thing.

Oh, and RRs suck. Mortgage them for building captial. :)

The statistical analysis of monopoly is pretty easy, and there is even a book that spells it all out. If you get orange early and stick 3 houses on them, you have a very high chance of winning the whole thing.

Oh, and RRs suck. Mortgage them for building captial. :)

It helps if you're the banker.

Roger Goodell, head of the NFL, has concluded Belichick and the Patriots broke NFL rules against spying. If you were Goodell what would you do? Should Belichick be sent packing? Should the team be penalized by losing draft picks? Should there be a monetary penalty? Should the Krafts (Chairman, CEO and President) do anything?


Belichick out for 3 games, barred from practice and team mtg's too...anything less is a slap on the wrist and they might as well do nothing....

edit to add, Bush should be deported and sent to France as well

Here is what is not being raised here. The NFL specificially went to each of the 32 teams in the preseason and specificially spoke about this action (videotaping play signals) as being against league rules. We are talking less than a month ago here.

No way Goddell is going to let this slide. In fact, I think he throws the book at the pats.

BTW, the Pats have 5 draft picks in the first 3 rounds of next years draft,,,the most of any team.

My prediction:

-Loss of all draft picks in the first 2 rounds next year
-Bellicheck is banned from all team contact for 2 weeks
-Pats are not able to have any home field games in this years playoffs no matter what their record is.
-Large fine to the team.

The league is about to come down on the Pats heads.

Len

My prediction:

-Loss of all draft picks in the first 2 rounds next year
-Bellicheck is banned from all team contact for 2 weeks
-Pats are not able to have any home field games in this years playoffs no matter what their record is.
-Large fine to the team.

The league is about to come down on the Pats heads.

Len
I think losing their inherent picks is fine, but they shouldn't lose the picks for which they've traded.

Barring them from having a home field playoff game? No way. That fundamentally alters the make-up of the league.

Why are people so soft on "cheating" here. I heard the same noise on sports talk radio yesterday--- the "no big deal" reaction. Granted, in the grand scheme of the sport, it really doesn't create a huge advantage--- but why even have the rules then?

My question is--- why is a popular, "winning" team cheating? Is this part of the secret to their success? (frankly, I doubt it--- but you get the idea)

I think losing their inherent picks is fine, but they shouldn't lose the picks for which they've traded.

Barring them from having a home field playoff game? No way. That fundamentally alters the make-up of the league.

It helps if you're the banker.

I will just point out that cultural shifts are ridden by the young. Old folk just keep on doing things the old way. And for this purpose, I am old folk.

I doubt such a shift is happening, and I would bet against it. It would be nice if it did though.

Here is what is not being raised here. The NFL specificially went to each of the 32 teams in the preseason and specificially spoke about this action (videotaping play signals) as being against league rules. We are talking less than a month ago here.

No way Goddell is going to let this slide. In fact, I think he throws the book at the pats.

BTW, the Pats have 5 draft picks in the first 3 rounds of next years draft,,,the most of any team.

My prediction:

-Loss of all draft picks in the first 2 rounds next year
-Bellicheck is banned from all team contact for 2 weeks
-Pats are not able to have any home field games in this years playoffs no matter what their record is.
-Large fine to the team.

The league is about to come down on the Pats heads.

Len

I predict that your prediction is way off.

No way he touches first or second rounders.
No way he bans Bellicheck
No way he takes home games from the OWNER.

Huge fine.

I predict that your prediction is way off.

No way he touches first or second rounders.
No way he bans Bellicheck
No way he takes home games from the OWNER.

Huge fine.

Remember, this commish is the son of a republican senator who spoke out against the vietnam war, and in doing so lost his seat and gained Nixon's hate. That is his role model.

He has proven already he is willing to take people down, especially when they do more than make a mistake. Lie to his face and the punishment goes up. And being told this is a point of emphasis... and the fact that there have been accusations in the past... I would not put severe punishments off the list yet.

But yeah, if force to bet I would put my money on a fine of some sort too. Unless hard proof or testimony comes out about other incidents, and he goes after the pattern.

I think losing their inherent picks is fine, but they shouldn't lose the picks for which they've traded.

Barring them from having a home field playoff game? No way. That fundamentally alters the make-up of the league.

is saying that stealing signals changes the fundamental competitive make -up of the league. In addition, the patriots have been suspected of doing this for years......& winning because of it. The NFL is the only league where the difference between the best teams and the worst teams is very small. Small things make a big difference.

I think the league cmes down hard on them. I think losing the home playoff games hurts both the team and especially the ownership in a way that sends the right message to the league.....which is what Goddell is looking to do.

It should be interesting.

Len

I predict that your prediction is way off.

No way he touches first or second rounders.
No way he bans Bellicheck
No way he takes home games from the OWNER.

Huge fine.

it's only a fine and late round draft picks......the behavior won't stop. The league has learned that the hard way with player behavior.

Goddell will come up with what will be perceived as a very harsh penalty to send a message and stop the behavior.

Len

it's only a fine and late round draft picks......the behavior won't stop. The league has learned that the hard way with player behavior.

Goddell will come up with what will be perceived as a very harsh penalty to send a message and stop the behavior.

Len

Regardless...Goodell knows better than to potentially kill a franchise by taking potential franchise players from their team. First and second rounders are expected to be just that.

I could sooner see him suspend Bellicheck from the sidelines (which with technology won't matter since he could coach from a bar down the street)...than to see him touch those top picks. Could be wrong...since the Pats have extra picks, in that the commish could take a pick here and there and still leave the Pats with as many picks as most next year...but that seems unlikely to me.

Regardless...Goodell knows better than to potentially kill a franchise by taking potential franchise players from their team. First and second rounders are expected to be just that.


Yet he was willing to suspend an ACTUAL franchise player indefinitely (Vick, which he did before the guilty plea). So the facts seem to show he he sees things differently than you think he sees them.

Yet he was willing to suspend an ACTUAL franchise player indefinitely (Vick, which he did before the guilty plea). So the facts seem to show he he sees things differently than you think he sees them.

I think there might be a LITTLE bit of a difference. Don't you think?
Since the facts are entirely different.

Personally, I don't really care what he does. Stealing signals is nothing new, taping them was just stupid. The Pats win a dunce award... People are making a big deal about something that happens because it can. If you don't want someone stealing your signs. Petition the NFL to allow the defensive captain to have a transmitter just like the QB does. Problem solved.

This is how ludicrous the issue is. Even high schools have back-up quarterbacks standing in a line...one giving the real signal call, the others giving fake ones. They do the same think in college, but the pros don't think that their signals should be stolen? Oh the mockrage horror!

Regardless...Goodell knows better than to potentially kill a franchise by taking potential franchise players from their team. First and second rounders are expected to be just that.

I could sooner see him suspend Bellicheck from the sidelines (which with technology won't matter since he could coach from a bar down the street)...than to see him touch those top picks. Could be wrong...since the Pats have extra picks, in that the commish could take a pick here and there and still leave the Pats with as many picks as most next year...but that seems unlikely to me.

to see what happens.

I suspect that the answer will be somewhere between our 2 positions.....however, Goddell has not been shy about coming down hard.....ask Cincinatti about affecting competitive balance.

I would be more surprised if it's just a fine and a late round draft pick at this point.

Len

I think we're on the cusp and it could go either way. By that I mean this whole brouhaha (about cheating in general, not the Patriots specifically) could end up being a flash in the pan and we could slide back into our comfortably numb (thank you Pink Floyd) state. Or, it could be the catalyst and a harbinger of change. If I were a betting man I'd have to bet on the comfortably numb side, as much as I would hope things would change.

I think there might be a LITTLE bit of a difference. Don't you think?
Since the facts are entirely different.

Personally, I don't really care what he does.

There are many differences. But on the issue of "franchise player" the situations are similar. I just don't think "franchise players" are a deal breaker for this commish.

And I don't care what he does either.

I think we're on the cusp and it could go either way. By that I mean this whole brouhaha (about cheating in general, not the Patriots specifically) could end up being a flash in the pan and we could slide back into our comfortably numb (thank you Pink Floyd) state. Or, it could be the catalyst and a harbinger of change. If I were a betting man I'd have to bet on the comfortably numb side, as much as I would hope things would change.

Mother do you think Goodell will drop the bomb...on the Pats.
Oooh...yaaa...Or will this thread be a waste of time?
/guitar solo...

I think Goddell will impose some type of penalty that will directly affect Belichick as well as the Pats. He can't let Belichick go unpunished because they were warned before the season started. Plus, everyone knows that Belichick has complete control of football operations for the team and would have approved the taping. Whether we think this type of cheating is trivial or not, it did take quite a bit of forethought and planning and, in my mind, this makes it worse than a spur of the moment cheat. I think Belichick will be suspended for a couple of games, there will be fines, and the team may be punished and lose some serious draft picks. Losing home field advantage in the playoffs also seems very fitting to me. Try to gain an advantage through cheating and you lose an advantage, a real cynergistic relationship. In fact I would prefer this punishment over losing draft picks.

I care what he does because sports is such a great influence on youth. If a sports commissioner sets an example it can have wide ranging affect. Bigger than we might guess.

Let me try to broaden this issue.

Do you think the US is seeing a shift in values, specifically in that there seems to be an "anti-cheating" wave building?

We have this case, where the reaction is pretty big, bigger than many sports writers would have thought. The many reactions to doping, with the latest being the st. louis player who got the mental block as a pitcher and is now hitting up a storm after some HGH (back when it was not against the letter of the rules). That all ties with the reaction to "hypocritical behavior" in politics. We respect to some degree those politicians that stick to their beliefs even when we disagree, but when they show they are not doing so in private it can be seen as "cheating" the people they represent in a way. The many things the adminstration has done that are not, perhaps, by a very debatable interpretation, against the law... but sure seem like cheating. You know, like saying there is no rule against stealing your opponent's money in Monopoly after you snatch a pile of $500s from someone.

Not that I have ever made such a claim myself you understand. :D And I would guess that such a move would cause a severe earthquake in Atlantic City.

So, is there an anti-cheating wave building? Are we as a society going to start to try to live by the spirit of the rules as well as the letter, and reacting more strongly against those that don't?

For the last 3 decades, there's been an increase in "win at any cost"- sports, politics, business, as long as the ends satisfy your fanbase, the means don't matter. At the same time there's been an increase in trying to blame external influences for ethical lapses- "it wasn't me cheating, it was the booze/pills/pressure from the sponsors/devil/eyedrops."

Maybe fans/citizens/employees are finally getting fed up. Our sports heroes and leaders get away with ethical lapses that would cause most of us to lose our jobs, then offer lame non-appologies that no one believes for a second.

Maybe it's time we start demanding more.

Well the commish dropped the hammer...sort of...kind of?

750,000k in fines and a first round pick...only if the Pats make the playoffs.

So a fine that Bill and Kraft have in their back pockets and a 1st rounder provided it isn't a high first round pick.

They'll never make the playoffs ...:rolleyes: :cool:

As I said earlier, this pretty much expected. There's no way they were going to take picks for which the Pats have traded, or changed playoff game locations or anything like that. That's *asterisk* territory.

From SI.com

NEW YORK (AP) -- New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for videotaping an opponent's offensive and defensive signals.
Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't.

Now how exactly does this impeed anyone else from doing the same thing?

What a joke.

Len



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Wow, more lenient than I expected. Should've either taken multiple picks or suspended Belichick for a game.

This is better for the Patriots but now the fans get to hear about how the NFL is on their side too...

$500,000 against Belichick personally is significant chunk of change. He makes a lot, but doesn't make athlete-money.

And draft picks are HUGE for a team.

Little bit more than a slap on the wrist.

From SI.com

NEW YORK (AP) -- New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for videotaping an opponent's offensive and defensive signals.
Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't.

Now how exactly does this impeed anyone else from doing the same thing?

What a joke.

Len



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They should have done what F1 did when McLaren was caught with Ferrari's tech documents.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-09-13-voa51.cfm

$500,000 against Belichick personally is significant chunk of change. He makes a lot, but doesn't make athlete-money.

And draft picks are HUGE for a team.

Little bit more than a slap on the wrist.

-Bellichek will end up with a team bonus....it won;t cost him anything.
-The Pats have 5 picks in the first 3 rounds.........one draft pick while tough is not that big a deal, in this draft.

I suspect this will have little impact on them.

Len

I'd be goiing nuts about this penalty.

Players are getting 6 game suspensions without pay for drinking outside a club, or being in a club where someone gets stabbed.

These guys blatently disregard the league office directives and go on with nothing lost but a little cash and at worst a very late 1st round pick (which will be their second 1st round pick)..BFD.

Sounds equitable to me.

Len

What are they going to do with the information they got?

Really now.... what's the crime? I mean, how is the game going to be changed?

In baseball, are the signals the third base coach sends to the batter considered private? Of course not.

So, BB teams use signal communications which are flexible and full of misleading signs.

But, if the NFL had a rule in place that was broken, then yes - the Pats should pay up. Loss of all first round draft positions is IMO fair.

After this is over, the NFL ought to scrap this rule. It's senseless. :rolleyes:

What are they going to do with the information they got?

Really now.... what's the crime? I mean, how is the game going to be changed?

In baseball, are the signals the third base coach sends to the batter considered private? Of course not.

So, BB teams use signal communications which are flexible and full of misleading signs.

But, if the NFL had a rule in place that was broken, then yes - the Pats should pay up. Loss of all first round draft positions is IMO fair.

After this is over, the NFL ought to scrap this rule. It's senseless. :rolleyes:

what the Pats were doing was something like this.

-Team rep1 films the defensive signals.
-Team Rep 2 syncs these signals with the real time game films and pictures of the plays and determining what signals = what defensive sets
-PATS now know what defense the opposing team is going to play (teams disquise these at the line of scrimmage)
-PATS then tell QB by radio what defense is going to be there and calls an appropriate play.

A smart QB like Brady has a hugh advantage knowing that the defense is going to be in a cover 1 or cover 2 defense prior to the play.

Len

what the Pats were doing was something like this.

-Team rep1 films the defensive signals.
-Team Rep 2 syncs these signals with the real time game films and pictures of the plays and determining what signals = what defensive sets
-PATS now know what defense the opposing team is going to play (teams disquise these at the line of scrimmage)
-PATS then tell QB by radio what defense is going to be there and calls an appropriate play.

A smart QB like Brady has a hugh advantage knowing that the defense is going to be in a cover 1 or cover 2 defense prior to the play.

Len


So, if radios are legal between players and the sideline, what's stopping a defensive coordinator radioing the defensive call to the on-field captain instead of communicating it openly? I don't know the rule offhand, but on-field radios should be available to all players, or none of them.

There's so many ways to foil thievery - false signals (as is done in baseball)..... two or more people flashing signals simultaneously, with only one of them legit.....

This is one of those rules that doesn't need to exist.

I'm not a fan of the NFL. It's a farce, almost to the level of WWF. How many times do I need to see a receiver make a first down and make the first down signal?

It's a joke!

How many times do I need to see the "fair catch." Oops, you can't hit the quarterback... Are they playing football or touch football?

This signal stealing isn't surprising. If you think the Pats are the only team doing it... Then I've got some nice oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell ya.

With videotape it's easy to match the real signal with the formation and defense that's been called, even with false signals or two people signaling. That's why the videotape is essential. Baseball teams have been caught with cameras in center field videotaping signals. It's illegal in baseball too. Here's a portion of a 2001 memo from the baseball commissioner regarding the use of electronic equipment.

"Please be reminded that the use of electronic equipment during a game is restricted. No club shall use electronic equipment, including walkie-talkies and cellular telephones, to communicate to or with any on-field personnel, including those, in the dugout, bullpen, field and--during the game--the clubhouse.

"Such equipment may not be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a club an advantage.

"Monitors for videotape of batters/ pitchers should be in the clubhouse or, if in the tunnel, well away from the dugout and view of players/coaches on the bench. No television camera replay should ever be turned toward the dugout.

"No microphones are permitted in the dugout without the approval of the Commissioner's Office (Fox Saturday afternoon and ESPN Sunday night telecasts have approval to microphone a manager or coach with consent of the person to be miked).

"No electronic equipment shall be used to revise an umpire's decision or to assist an umpire in making a decision."

It has a bigger impact in football because there are many fewer games, fewer plays per game and more parity in the league. A slight advantage can make a difference between a win and a loss, making the playoffs or not.

BTW, the NFL prohibits a defensive player from receiving radio signals, only the quarterback has a radio in his helmet. They considered changing the rule last year but it fell two votes short. It's a good bet they will approve it for next year.

Here's a quote from Mike Holmgren who sat on the rules committee. "There were rules set up. The way technology is going right now, you could probably set up a lot of things to take advantage of teams. So you just say, `OK, these are the rules. Let's all play by the rules."'

And a portion of a memo from the NFL received by Belichick and all the other head coaches just days before the Jets game.

"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to the taping of an opponent's offensive and defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other location accessible to club staff members during the game,"

I think the owners and coaches who sit on the competition committee have a better handle on what rules need to be in the NFL rulebook than any of us on this board. I trust their judgement on this one. The latest rule on radios in helmets is a puzzler, though. A quarterback who's also a holder has to have a second helmet without a radio. I understand the reasoning behind the rule but I think the application of the rule needs some work. A quarterback on the field has to change helmets before he can hold. In last second field goals with no time outs and the clock ticking down this could be a big problem.

Let me try to broaden this issue.

Do you think the US is seeing a shift in values, specifically in that there seems to be an "anti-cheating" wave building?

So, is there an anti-cheating wave building? Are we as a society going to start to try to live by the spirit of the rules as well as the letter, and reacting more strongly against those that don't?
And some say that the clinton years didn't amount to anything. :D Seems he got cheating on the radar screen... I suppose IT could have been the start of something.:D

Cigars anyone? :thumbsup:

With videotape it's easy to match the real signal with the formation and defense that's been called, even with false signals or two people signaling. That's why the videotape is essential.

Keep in mind that defenses disguise their formations and intentions up to the time the ball is hiked. So, just how will the offensive team be able to use videotape and be sure which of the three guys dancing around is giving the correct signal? Or which of the three guys is not giving a legitimate signal?

Matching signals would not be necessarily easy. They can change from week to week. Communication methods can also be juggled around. Keep in mind that the offense has a limited amount of time to put the ball into play - videotaping is simply not bulletproof, and in fact could backfire. If I was a defensive coach, I'd jump at the opportunity to give false information to the other team.

Well, I guess it doesn't work. That's why Belichick has been doing it for years, cause it's useless. Sure they disguise their defense until the last second but once the play starts it's easy for someone who understands defenses to identify what it is from tape or photos. Match it to a common signal and, voila, you know which one is right. They probably spend the first half figuring it out and the second half befuddling the other team. Everyone knows the second half is when games are won and that's when you've got the edge.

Well, I guess it doesn't work. That's why Belichick has been doing it for years, cause it's useless. Sure they disguise their defense until the last second but once the play starts it's easy for someone who understands defenses to identify what it is from tape or photos. Match it to a common signal and, voila, you know which one is right. They probably spend the first half figuring it out and the second half befuddling the other team. Everyone knows the second half is when games are won and that's when you've got the edge.

Belichick has been doing it for years because nobody knew. And he didn't face much in the way of countermeasures.