http://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1188/stansmike.JPG

Stan's Tubeless Road Rim at Interbike....anyone know any more?

Ya, I also placed a similar inquiry on the notubes.com forum. This rim could be the answer for cross, assuming it is a normal width. That way, it would be easy to swap out wheels w/o having to mess w/ brake setup. Currently, the Notubes 29er rim is a good tubeless option, except that it is about 4-5 mm wider than a standard road rim.

I'd fully abandon tubulars for tubeless clinchers if there was a good, normal width rim that held the beads on. Absolutely for sure. Glueing tires isn't my favorite past time, and the tubies are very expensive when they get damaged in a few short hours of racing. The treads of clinchers are pretty dang good. (Michi muds).

I guess I'm having the opposite reaction. it seems like the best solution for tires was solved over 100 years ago. we've been talking about tubless road wheels now for over 4 years and i've yet to see one in the flesh. I guess I have a problem with having to put 2 ounces of liquid in something to get it to hold air.

when i was in high school back in the late 70s and early 80s, we'd hang out and fix tubulars our selves. once you start using the rim transfer method, mounting sewups is easier than changing a clincher.

I still prefer clinchers for the road though.

I never heard of this "rim transfer method" of which you speak but just thinking about it...

Please tell more. I am intrigued.

Ron

I guess I'm having the opposite reaction. it seems like the best solution for tires was solved over 100 years ago. we've been talking about tubless road wheels now for over 4 years and i've yet to see one in the flesh. I guess I have a problem with having to put 2 ounces of liquid in something to get it to hold air.

when i was in high school back in the late 70s and early 80s, we'd hang out and fix tubulars our selves. once you start using the rim transfer method, mounting sewups is easier than changing a clincher.

I still prefer clinchers for the road though.

"mounting sewups is easier than changing a clincher." :lol: <--- are you pulling my leg?

Well, the tubies ride really nice. I love them. They provide really good traction, are light weight, and euro. They're also designed w/ groomed euro courses in mind. Tubies cost about 3-4 times as much. Also, the "setup" and "repair" time is more significant. I think that most folks are adding a little sealant to a tubie anyways, which isn't much different than adding some stan's liquid to a clincher. If the clincher is a true "tubeless" version, it actually shouldn't NEED any liquid. The sealant is a good preventative measure for thorn flats and small cuts.

I experimented w/ cx tubeless last fall for a short while, utilizing stan's, a ksyrium, tubeless valve, and a standard clincher. Many other people have as well. I thought it seemed like a really good alternative until my bead blew off. With a "tubeless" designed tire bead and rim hook combo, I think it would be a really great alternative.

I'm certainly sold on the technology on the mtb. I use Stan's wheels on my MTB and the bead/rim is superior. I'd never run tubies on a mtb unless I was doing World Cup competitions w/ short laps, wheel pit support crews, and a fat contract.

http://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/1188/stansmike.JPG

Stan's Tubeless Road Rim at Interbike....anyone know any more?

I don't know about tubeless, but I do know that that dude has been huffing glue like a fiend

I have a teammate who runs tubeless cross... He used a bontrager rim, the stans stuff and a Maxxis Raze tire I think. He loves it. Says it works pretty well.

Miscellaneous Ramblings

Keep a completely clean (I mean completely, no glue on it what so ever) tubular rim around. Use the Vitorria Mastic and after applying the last coat on the base layer, let it dry completely. Over night will do it. It will dry to a crusty - not tacky finish. Mount the tire on the clean dummy rim to re stretch it. Put your target wheel in a truing stand and apply the last coat of glue. Once you are done, pull the tire off the dummy rim. After only 5 or so minutes, It'll be nice and stretched out and will go on your target wheel no questions asked. For anyone who's struggled to get a tire on a rim, use the above method. Your fingertips will appreciate it.

Yes. There’s far more variety of clincher treads available compared to tubular. However, there really only needs to be about 3 treads. A Sprint type tread, a Typhoon/Grifo type tread and a Rhino or Michelin Mud type tread. All the rest are simply a variation on the above. Do we really need 45 different tread patterns? No. About 3-4 will do it.

Currently there are no cyclocross tubeless tires available. Therefore, one has to do a conversion with sealant. Don't get me wrong, I'm not rooting against it and we've all heard anecdotal evidence that it does work. I believe it. What I'm saying is that at best, these tubeless systems aim to replicate the ride of a good tubular. Since they can't promise a better ride they offer convenience and a cheaper initial price.

The fact is, anyone on this board can learn to repair a punctured tubular tire. When I got into cycling in the late 70s, there were no clincher racing tires and cheapest tubulars were cotton tires of about the quality of a current day Dugast. Any self respecting 17 year old who didn't have a date for the Friday night dance could peel back the base tape, un ravel the stitching, patch the puncture and re suture the casing. He'd do anything to avoid mowing the law, but he'd raid his mom's sewing kit in a heartbeat. Heck, for that matter, he had his own. I've got a friend who removes the whole tube and replaces it with a butyl tube and his mom sews the casing with her ultra high tech sewing machine. She's glad to get the chance to use it. However, at $2.50 per tube on sale at Performance, we don't even patch clincher tubes anymore, but I digress. If you don't want to fix 'em your self, tirealert.com will do it for $16 per if you ship 'me two or more.

Of course you can avoid this whole discussion and use clinchers and tubes. They work really well.

New Hutchinson Bulldog and Piranha clinchers will be available in "road tubeless" version in January 2008 (announced by Hutchinson).
- Season is almost over
- Only 1 compatible wheelset available: Shmn Dura Ace.

My guess is that you cannot compare them with good tubulars, but it may be a good (but expensive and not really lightweight) alternative for regular clinchers.

That is a Hutchinson Road tubeless tire on a standard clincher rim(Easton clincher). Using 2 layers of yellow spoke tape and a new longer road valve. The Road Tubeless tire stays on fine. Its more to due with the strength of that tire bead to stay on the rim at the 135psi.

Who rides a clincher at 135 psi on the road?

Most agree that anything over 110 psi has a very sketchy feel to it and it does not corner very well.

Just wondering aloud on a Monday........

135 is the max pressure. We have run it as low at 80psi with out a problem.

At first I was all yippy-skippy about tubeless cx tires...but I do have a an issue. I can bottom out my tubulars during a race with little to no rim damage. Do the same to your clincher rims, now with a super tech lip to contain that tubless tire and then what?

here's a question are the "Notubes" options really worth it? Before you read note I ride almost exclusively on clinchers because I just don't have the cash for a 4th wheel set. Here's my thought, and I just want to see if anyone thinks I right, sorta right or completely wrong. With a "tubless" clincher tire you will NEVER get the same amount of deformation at lower pressures tubulars can go to, they are just designed do darn differently. On top of that, if you are on a budget with only 1 bike and 1 wheel set, changing a "tubless" clincher tire is much more of a pain in the butt than a "regular" clincher. It looks like you might end up with additional headaches without a performance difference big enough to make it worth it. <<shrug>> I can see that wierd Tufo tubular tire that fits on a clincher rim as being a pricey way to have tubular like clincher but this just seems to not be worth it.

With a "tubless" clincher tire you will NEVER get the same amount of deformation at lower pressures tubulars can go to, they are just designed do darn differently.

You will get very close.

Not with a dedicated tubeless tire, like the new Hutchinsons: Like the UST mountainbike tires they should be a bit thicker because of an airtight layer.

That said: If you use regular tires, depending on type, you will be amazed about how supple they are without the inner tube.

I have set up a few "barnyard" tubeless wheelsets and it seems that you can drop at least 10 psi over the same rim/tire with a tube. That can boost performance pretty significantly, IMO. Plus, you get more supplness and less rolling resistance by not having the tube in there. Plus you get the puncture protection of Stans, which is huge here in goathead country. Granted, you have to be a little more conservative with PSI on a clincher rim to keep it from getting dinged.

IMO tubless set up as are not quite as good as tubulars but much better than clinchers with tubes (assuming your set-up is reliable). Swapping tires is a pain, but I don't think that should dictate your decision unless you have only one wheelset and don't know what tire you will be running until you arrive at the course.

I agree. I don't think it's a comparison of a tubeless tire vs. a clincher/tube. It's a comparison of a tubeless tire vs. a tubular tire. There are pro's and con's for both options. For me, the cons of going tubeless are that there isn't currently an affordable rim to build up (that is a normal width - Stan's rim is 4-5mm wider) that has a good tubeless bead lock, which will help tubeless tires from peeling off. The only option currently is Dura Ace. I would totally go this route vs. tubulars if that affordable and lightweight rim (notubes.com) were available.

The traction benefits of going tubeless vs. conventional clincher tire/tube setup is tremendous, not to mention lighter. It takes 15 minutes to set up start to finish too. Not a 3-5 day process of gluing a much more expensive tire that could get killed just as quickly.

It seem almost everyone is in agreement that tubular will still ride better but that tubeless offers almost the feel for less pain in the arse right?

For me, the cons of going tubeless are that there isn't currently an affordable rim to build up (that is a normal width - Stan's rim is 4-5mm wider) that has a good tubeless bead lock, which will help tubeless tires from peeling off. The only option currently is Dura Ace. I would totally go this route vs. tubulars if that affordable and lightweight rim (notubes.com) were available.


I'm having no problems with Ksyrium rims. Would like to try the new DA wheels when they come out.

I'm having no problems with Ksyrium rims. Would like to try the new DA wheels when they come out.

I'd actually re-consider using the Ksyriums w/ a converted tubeless clincher if I had my hands on a set of the new Notubes rubber rimstrips for road bikes. I'd like to know how much of a difference that rimstrip makes in keeping the bead on and reducing burping at low pressures while applying a lot of lateral peeling force (tacky 180 corners). At the same time, now that the season is upon us, I don't really want to experiment in races. That window of opportunity was back in August. Maybe next year. I'd also like to try the new tubeless beaded clinchers by Hutchinson. I'd like to compare that bead to a regular clincher, ie. michelin mud2.

I just stans up some mud2 on ksyrium. no rim strips, just a valve. The mud2 was harder to air up than the Maxxis Mimo and the Speedmax 30s. I could not air up a wtb 38c.

I can run 30psi all day, and rip asphalt hairpins no problem. Once the tire has been on the rim for 1-2 weeks, the bead is essentially latex glued to the rim.

If you burp the tire, it is a pain to either air back up, or put a tube in it.

Yeah, mid season, it may be too much of a risk in a race. You'd have to really play with it to figure out what psi works for you on what tire/day/course, etc.

I really dug my Michi Mud2 tubeless conversion setup and I chronicled my experiences excessively here about a year ago.

What I can't say for sure at this time, is the cause of my frightening catastrophic failure, the event that has scared me away ever since...

After a race (my third w/ the setup, and approx. 3-4 weeks after my initial setup w/ stans) I was discussing the finer merits of my tubeless setup w/ a friend. Then, all of a sudden, BOOM!!!! Stan's sprayed everywhere, and my tire bead had this weird deformity, like it was broken inside. The rubber around the bead was intact, but looked a little melted. I cannot say for sure if it was a deformity that was present prior to my setup, or if the "melted" appearance happened instantaneously during the force and friction heat of the explosion. I also cannot say whether the Stan's ate away at the tire to cause some kind of erosion of the rubber. My last uncertainty, was whether it was a result of my Stan's liquid drying up inside, or if the heat played a factor. It was a hot day and in the middle of an asphalt parking lot. The residual liquid inside was quite fiberous, looking like a spiderweb all woven inside.

The tire bead explosion was so violent that I couldn't help but visualize how many other times in the previous hour during my race where I was in a very dicey situation at speed and had that occurred, I would have crashed terribly. Possibly even badly injured.

I haven't quite gotten up the courage yet to try the experiment w/ a Stan's Notubes rimstrip. That might be the trick. I dare someone else to give it a go and report back to the list! :smilewinkgrin:

http://brandtastic.smugmug.com/photos/97944628-M.jpg

The Stan's site warns about beads stretching and breaking. Michelin is at the top of their list of tires with beads too weak to be run tubeless. Could it be that your bead stretched, causing a the deformity in the surrounding rubber, and snapped and caused the blow-out?

Its interesting how often bead failures occur when the bike is not being ridden. I was dealing with a whole batch of faulty wire-bead tires and I don't recall a single instance out of more than a dozen reports where the tire blew while the bike was bein ridden.