here's the deal. in August 2006 i picked up a 58cm Cannondale CAAD8 (2006 model). all this season i've felt the cramped and wanting to move back. took the bike to another shop in the LBS chain to see what they thought of the fit as setup by the other shop.

after a few minutes of adjusting the cleats and looking at my position on the bike a question come out that pulled the carpet out from under me. the owner asked why i went with a 58cm and not a 60cm - i was right at the max end of all the adjustments on the 58.

so here are the options as i see them:

swap the 110mm 5 deg stem for a 110mm 17 deg stem

swap the frame - $600 for a CAAD9 + 100 or so to swap components

buy an R5 CAAD8 for $1300, swap the CAAD8 Ultegra components for the 105 on the CAAD9 and then sell the CAAD8 for $1000 or so.

stem - $40.00
new frame $700-750
new bike $1300 - $1000 for old bike = $300 or so...

you have no idea how ticked i am about the hint that the 60cm would have made more sense - i went thru that last year until i was sick to my stomach.

my wife does not care what i do - she asked if i there were people that made custom bike frames so fit would no longer be an issue... in her mind, that makes the most sense - get a custom biult bike and be done with it. i told her a price of $4000 or so and she didn't even flinch. no, i don't have $4K for a bike right now.

Why not just try an 84 degree 130 mm stem first?

Cheap, & you'll get a sense of the feel of the length.

Len

Why not just try an 84 degree 130 mm stem first?

Cheap, & you'll get a sense of the feel of the length.


i think 130mm would be too far forward - my problem is my arms are fully extended and my back is bunched up. i consently want tp ush myself back in the saddle to get some room to not be hunched over. if the bars weren't 3" lower than the saddle, i could at least sit up a bit more and not be so hunched over. i feel like Quasimodo on the bike.

here's a picture of my ride:

http://asciibaron.dyndns.org/images/caad8.jpg

huh? do you mean you cannot even bend your elbows on the hoods because it is that cramped? what kind of riding do you do? i'd lose the FSA headset cone, drop it a few inches, and flip the stem... but thats just me. and i'm not an expert fitter.

huh? do you mean you cannot even bend your elbows on the hoods because it is that cramped? what kind of riding do you do? i'd lose the FSA headset cone, drop it a few inches, and flip the stem... but thats just me. and i'm not an expert fitter.

my arms are fully extended but i'm all cramped up - the bars need to be raised up at least an inch. if i stretch out my back and bend my arms where i think i would be comfortable, the bars would be an inch higher and back a tad.

the bars of 31.8mm so that is making getting a 17 deg 110mm a PITA.

i think 130mm would be too far forward - my problem is my arms are fully extended and my back is bunched up. i consently want tp ush myself back in the saddle to get some room to not be hunched over. if the bars weren't 3" lower than the saddle, i could at least sit up a bit more and not be so hunched over. i feel like Quasimodo on the bike.

here's a picture of my ride:

http://asciibaron.dyndns.org/images/caad8.jpg

your problem is as much drop as anything.

It's exactly why the second thing I look at when looking at a frame is the HT length.

I'd get a bigger bike based on that description.

Len

your problem is as much drop as anything.

It's exactly why the second thing I look at when looking at a frame is the HT length.

I'd get a bigger bike based on that description.



thanks Len - which of my credit card companies are you consulting for this week? :D

so, do i swap frames or buy a new bike...

i posted the bike on Craigslist.

your description is confusing--you can easily get the saddle position equivalent to what you'd get on a 60. What is 'bunched up'? you have a short stem and + rise. I'm 6"2.5 35 inch inseam, long arms and have a 58cm CAAD (a 130 stem, no spacers, and stem in - position). You're going to get only 1.5cm more on the TT with a 60, which you can get with swapping stems.

Swapping frames will be more expsive than you think. Be sure to add $200-$300 on top of what you expect to spend. Because if you are anything like me, this will happen.

A perfect fitting frame on closeout for $750. Sweet, I am goning to build a 3k bike for under 1k.

Now I just need to spend $300 on tools.

-Now this new 3k bike needs tires worthy of a 3k bike. How bout some Dillo Elites- $100
-Now, this 3k bike needs a better seat to. My seat is an anchor and it is old an uncomfortable-$150
-Need to get new cables. Oh man, they only sell dura ace! -$80
-I now can fianlly get a new stem that is between 90 and 110mm and doesnt have a crazy rise to it. (I thnk flat and between 90 and 110 leads to the best handling. But that is my opinion. I used to have to ride a 125, and the handling got crazy.) -$50
-Dang, I need new bar tape to match my cool new seat! -$25
-Now I am spending all this cash, I might as well by some winter clothes so I can ride this beast in the winter- $120

$1450 bucks later, I have a 3k bike that rides like a dream.

I will also mention, that building up my own bike was one of the most fun epiriences I have ever done. I follow the Park Tools Blue book, and the bike came out perfect. My understanding of biking has increased so much and I rarely have to go to the LBS other than to buy parts. (priceless)

Also, in choosing a frame, I decided to get a Serrota Fierte that I put ultegra group on it. I have to say, it is nice knowing that I have a frame worthy of upgrading. And that I have the skills to upgrade it myself. So if I one day come across some dura-ace hood on Ebay for dirt cheap, i can just purchase and upgrade.

Don't buy a new frame in hopes that it will cure your fit problem! The amount of seatpost showing does not indicate that the frame is too small. All you'll get from the larger frame is a taller head tube and more reach, requiring a shorter stem.

The description of your problem doesn't make a lot of sense. If you ride with your hands on the brake hoods, your arms should be fully extended, but relaxed. If your back is hunched up, the reach to the bars is either too short, or you have a flexibility problem that has nothing to do with the bike. What does it feel like if you move your hands to the top of the bars? Lots of people climb in this position, but it doesn't cause a hunched back, just a more upright torso angle. Perhaps the problem is merely one of terminology and you mean that you feel bent over too far?

The saddle appears to be positioned as far back as it can go. That's not necessarily bad, but may indicate the need for a post with more setback. Hopefully, the saddle is adjusted to position the knee over the pedal spindle or slightly further back. A larger frame won't change the seatpost position, unless the seat tube angle is more relaxed. The 60cm frame does have a 72.5 degree STA, but that only moves the post back about 6mm. The 60cm frame will also have about 10mm more reach and require an even shorter stem. That's not an improvement.

It's hard to tell how much drop you have from the saddle to the top of the bars, due to the angle of the picture, but it doesn't appear to be 3 inches or 7-8cm. It also looks like you could rotate the bars a few degrees to raise the level of the brake hoods, to see if that feels better.

I would not asssume that raising the bars more will make this bike more comfortable. Other inexperienced riders have posted similar comments and later found that the real problem was poor advice from fitters who assume that comfort issues are always solved by raising the bars. Often, the high bar position is the cause of the problem. I'd flip the stem down and try a lower position. A drop of 8-10cm is quite common for a fit rider.

To experiment with a higher bar position, find a cheap +10 degree stem in the same length, or perhaps the next longer size. I would not buy an extreme +17 angle stem. If you insist on trying a higher bar, then the Ritchey 4-axis comes in a 73 degree angle. Keep in mind that the horizontal length of your flipped-up (+5) stem is nearly one size shorter than it would be in the flipped-down position. A 73 degree will be two sizes (nearly 20mm) shorter. If you're hunched up, a longer stem may solve the problem.

The bottom line is you can make the 58cm frame fit the same as the larger 60cm with only a few, relatively low cost changes. Only after you've fixed your fit (or fitness) problem should you consider changing frame sizes.

Totally agree w/ C40.

All you need is a higher bar, which can be achieved with a higher stem. It may not look racy but will do the trick for a more comfortable fit. A 110 stem for your bike is not too long at all. In fact, even a 130 stem would not be outrageously long either.

Different people have different flexibility, but C'dale does have relatively short headtubes (Serotta's headtube would extend at least 2cm-3cm taller, for example). So it's not the size but the design of the frame. I realize going to a Serotta (or a Spec' Roubaix, or the tall headtube version of the new Trek, or even C'dales very own Synapse) could be costly.

So a high rise stem (could cost less than $30 if you search ebay) will fix the problem.

here are some pictures of me on the bike

in the hoods (http://asciibaron.dyndns.org/images/position1goji.jpg)

on the bars (http://asciibaron.dyndns.org/images/position2goji.jpg)

Visually, the fit looks good. Saddle appears too far aft. I'd move it forward to shorten the reach a touch and give you a better muscle position over the pedals (KOPS, etc) you may be over-utilizing your glutes.

Drop looks quite reasonable.

I got nothing to sell you- I think you need some more time on the bike, and get to know it as is. Relax your elbows a little. Love the bike.

And brush your teeth dude. Yikes. :)

Visually, the fit looks good. Saddle appears too far aft. I'd move it forward to shorten the reach a touch and give you a better muscle position over the pedals (KOPS, etc) you may be over-utilizing your glutes.



i moved the saddle back the other from the neutral position the other day because i find myself naturally wanting to pedal from behind. on a flat road, i was pushing my butt back over the end of the saddle to really get power to the pedals.

i have about a 1000 miles on the bike this year. not a ton, but better than previous year's.

i go thru a ton of floss.:D

here are some pictures of me on the bike

in the hoods (http://asciibaron.dyndns.org/images/position1goji.jpg)

on the bars (http://asciibaron.dyndns.org/images/position2goji.jpg)

I don't see any big fit problem either. If you moved the saddle back, it will increase the reach to the bars, just like a longer stem.

Finding the optimum saddle fore/aft position can be tricky, but as the saddle moves forward toward the traditional KOP position, the amount of weight on your hands will increase, which can cause discomfort. It's important to be balanced over the saddle. A saddle that's too far back may put too much weight on the rear wheel and slow your cadence.

A common problem I see with newer riders is the lack of sufficient cadence. A lot of people confuse torque with power. Power = torque X cadence. Torque and cadence have equal importance. Applying a heavy pedaling pressure (high torque) at a slow cadence will rarely produce optimum power. Aim for an average cadence of 90 or better on the flats and no les than 70 on a climb, then you won't have to get behind the pedal as far to push on it. I see a lot of beginners pedaling 60 rpm on the flats and 40-50 on a climb. Those riders are destined to ride slowly and not improve, unless they start picking up the cadence by selecting a lower gear that allows a higher cadence.

If you only ride 1000 miles a year, your current position is probably not too far off. It's not enough mileage to get comfortable in a very agressive position. If you do move the saddle forward, only move it 5-10mm at a time. If you end up 10mm further forward, try a 10mm longer stem to restore the reach to the bars.

I agree-fit looks OK. Some caveats: do not adjust saddle fore/aft to solve issues of reach to the bars! The two are independent. Fix fore/aft and saddle height first (as you raise the saddle you also move it bakc). KOPS is OK as a general starting point, but there is no physiological requirment for it (famous diatribe "myth of KOPS" by a famous framebuilder on the web somewhere). Moving behind the spindle is common for seeking more power, especially when climbing and will recruit the hamstrings more.

If anything, your reach is a fairly typical fairly relaxed looking position. Lowering stem would take some of the arch out of your back - this is more aero but for recreational riding some find it less comfortable. It would also tilt your pelvis to bring more power to the pedals (Joe Friel has stuff on this on his blogs). Definitely nothing wrong looking with the frame size though.

I'm looking at your stem, and it's short, and it rises, and you have all the spacers below it, which indicate to me you want your bar higher, not farther out, otherwise you would've flipped your stem, moved the spacers, gone to a longer one.

It sounds like your not flexible enough for the lower rider position (also since you provided pics of the hoods, and bar riding position but not the drops, I'm guessing you don't ride drops much). Flexibility will come with time if you work on it, for now, maybe find an even higher rise, but I don't think a bigger bike will help.

I've got a NO COST solution. Start doing ab exercises, especially on an exercise ball. You need to strengthen your core. Stronger core muscles allows your abs and back to do the supporting and puts less on your arms. You feel like you need to push back with your arms because you unconsciously want to take the workload off your core. A stronger core will allow you to ride more forward and lower with your torso and put more bend in your arms. Your arms will be more relaxed which will also allow your shoulders to relax. The hunched up feeling is probably tight shoulders. Core strengthening man.

Looks like you have long arms. True?

Measure where your nose is relative to the front wheel axle with a FLAT back. Close = you need a longer top tube.

KOPS looks behind. No worries, unless you get pain behind knees.

I have a long back and love a long top tube (CADD8 63cm) Smaller frames are very unstable for me.

"Amount of seatpost showing" means nothing. In fact, due to relaxed seat tube angles on larger production bikes, puts the seat position way too far back.

Get out and ride the bigger c'dale - you should know right away . . .

i rode a 60cm today and it was an improvement - i was able to get in the drops - something i can't do on the 58cm. the bars are only 1.5 inches below the saddle, half the distance of the 58cm.

the shop owner agrees that the issue isn't the fit on the 58cm, it's a lack of fitness of the rider. i just need to get out there and ride.

i need to end this affair with Little Debbie...

I'm no fit expert, but unlike the other folks here, I think the 58cm bike tooks too small for you. With the seat all the way back, to be somewhat comfortable on the bars, your hips are way too far behind the BB. If you moved it forward enough to get in the proper KOPS position, you'd be way too far up on the bars. Basically, you need a longer top tube and head tube = bigger frame. I think you'd be happier dropping a little cash and getting a bike that you're more comfortable on. You might also want to try different frame geometries if you can.

My $.02

Did you look at the pictures of the bike setup? There is an average amount of exposed seatpost and the saddle is not all the way back, it's actually in the middle. You don't judge bike position by the position of the hips and KOPS is just a starting point. Looks like he's slightly behind the KOPS position the way he's set up but it's hard to tell exactly where the pedal spindle is in relation to his cleats and the bony protrusion below his knee. It's probably better to be behind the spindle rather than ahead of it for a road position but it's different for almost everyone.

His position is pretty upright and there's little bend in his elbows. There's plenty of room for him to lower his torso and bend at the elbows. I still think it's more of a strength issue in his abs and back than it is a bad bike fit.

i moved the saddle back the other from the neutral position the other day because i find myself naturally wanting to pedal from behind. on a flat road, i was pushing my butt back over the end of the saddle to really get power to the pedals.



Uhhh.... That's a symptom of a seat that's too far back. When you really gronk the pedals, you should feel only light in the saddle. The way you feel you 'want' to move is the way you are off balance, and what needs to be corrected. You ought to have moved the saddle up a bit.

I'd recommend a good professional fitting for a custom bike, even though you have no real intention to buy one at present. What you will come home with is a meaningful indication of where your contact points ought to be, and from there, it's a small matter to do the math to see if it's parts or frames that you need.

And it matters - even a good fitter applies a different standard to 'fit me to this bike' than to 'find a bike that fits me.' Even if the guy you are working with is knowledgeable and a straight shooter, it's useful to remove the bias of 'this' bike.

the saddle is fully back - maybe a few mm's, but close enough. one of the biggest problems is my legs hitting my ribs and gut when i bend my elbows - i is very difficult to relax and take deep breaths.

...why i went with a 58cm and not a 60cm - i was right at the max end of all the adjustments on the 58.

You should locate a bicycle store that has a "compact style" 61cm bike with a tall head tube that is available for a test ride. For your size of upper body I'd guess that you have some serious weight on your palms. That bike you have there is best suited to someone much lighter than you who is a seasoned rider. I'd forget about the bike weight issue, and get a Brooks B17 saddle too since you are loading the saddle more than the typical rider. Your goal should be to get as comfortable as possible in this early stage of cycling.

Look closely at the Merlin Solis style of geometry.

Look closely at the Merlin Solis style of geometry.


how much different is that from the LeMond Etape or Tourmalet?

how much different is that from the LeMond Etape or Tourmalet?
I'm not sure. I was familiar with the Merlin Solis, so I selected it for an example of a road bike designed for a relaxed, not aggressive, rider position. Note the tall headtube and the sloping top tube, properties of a compact frame.

I am long in the torso and short in the legs, and I found the Compact Lightspeed Siena 61cm to be very comfortable. I have replaced the saddle seen here with a Brooks B17 and a Topeak seat pack since I am building my bike for distance riding, not racing.

For example here's a Compact XL Trek Pilot on eBay, and some reviews. Add a Brooks B17 and your favorite pedals, and you're ready to spin the miles. Certainly test ride a compact at a bike store if possible. Good luck!

GOTO eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230180951021)

GOTO Review (http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/latest-bikes/road-bike/trek/PRD_338773_5668crx.aspx)