From cyclingnews:

Dr. Steffen left the team before Lance Armstrong arrived in 1998. He explained that "at that time, we were a small team with average ambitions. Everyone was clean. But one day, Marty Jemison and Tyler Hamilton came to ask me whether I could supply them with illegal products. I got the impression that they were speaking for everyone and that they had come to test the waters...To get to the top level, the team leaders were convinced that only doping would allow the team to obtain good results. From there, I understood that the whole mentality was changing."


Wow. Him naming Hamilton is pretty significant. I wonder if Tyler is going to respond. I'd like to know specifically what "illegal products" the doctor is refering too.

It is interesting this year the doping thing has come back with a vengence. Last year when Lance almost lost, the French finally loved him and the doping controversy went away.

I think less about what if Dr. Steffen, Lemond, and now Hampsten are right and more about what if they are wrong. If they are right and doping is widespread, then in my mind it is doubtful that LA has won just based upon doping. Rather it seems more like he's beaten other doped riders. If they are wrong, they have placed some dark clouds over what is an amazing human achievement.

I can't imagine much in the way of positive rewards for these whistleblowers that have come forward. Postal's old physiotherapist, Semoni, Lemond, and now this old team doctor along with some former secondary Postal riders. I suspect there is really something to these doping alegations and Lance and the cycling world want it squashed real soon. Lots of $$$ riding on the clean cut non-doping image.

I'm not saying that he is doping now, but while watching an interview with LA, I noticed that on the doping question he was asked to say that he never doped (I wish I had the actual quote).
His reply started off saying that he was sick of the discussion and he finished by saying that the team works very hard and and that they are all clean.

It was clear in the wording that he was saying they were not doping NOW. He didn't directly answer the question which was something along the lines of "can you confirm that you have never doped".

Anybody else notice this?

He was interviewed on the TODAY show this morning and he was asked point blank if he is now or had at any time in the past taken performance enhancing drugs and he said "absolutely not" without hesitation.

I have a question for all the nay-sayers. Is it possible, however remote you may think it is, that Lance is just that damn good? Why not? Did Tiger Woods make a mockery of the rest of the PGA Tour because of performance enhancing drugs? Same question for Michael Jordan or Mike Tyson in his prime. Isn't it possible that they all had a period where they were just better than everyone else?

pre cancer, who knows? I really don't care, if his Hematocrit level is legal and he's showing no signs of drugs (he's the most tested athlete from what I've heard) we can't convict a man on innuendo and gossip.

pre cancer, who knows? I really don't care, if his Hematocrit level is legal and he's showing no signs of drugs (he's the most tested athlete from what I've heard) we can't convict a man on innuendo and gossip.

What about Lemond? How does he 15 years later still have the fastest speed even today with the advances in time trial equipment and training? I wonder whether he who cries the loudest is above reproach or it is the voice of a guilty conscience....

Also, here is a question bordering on heresy - should performance enhancing drugs be banned? Could we learn from atheletes using them how to help the human body perform better? Is this issue more unfair than disparity in team budgets which allow for better equipment, hotels, coaches, wind tunnels, and training days at the race location?

I'm betting that there is still a ton of doping going on and that no tour rider is above reproach. I hope Tyler just ignores this guy instead of creating a big media frenzy, because he seems like the type of guy who is capable of ignoring sensationalizing journalists.

I do hope that doping is taken out of the equation. I'm sure any guy on PCP could win a stage of the tour with no problem. For that matter, why not just genetically engineer cyclists? We admire certain athletes so much because some part of us thinks we could be one. It's founded on the belief that guys like Lance are just ordinary people that worked hard to achieve their dreams. You add the whole doping piece into the equation and it really ruins the ideal. When I got into biking, I wanted to stomp the mountain like Tinker Juarez. I entered my first Norba comps in highschool, thinking about how cool it would be to just to be on the same single track as Tinker. If someone had told me back then that I would have to take drugs just get on the course, I would have quit right there. Never did get to ride with him, but I did see him riding the Sea Otter off season in Monterey once. The old man is still a rocket on wheels.

if doping was rampant and improved, yes TT record should have been crushed unless.....
Lemond.....like I said in that forum, sounds like dogs biting the hands.......in agreement records, or rider fitness (see Merckx vs LA) hasn't improved much which is in contrary to semi-popular opinion. I don't think athletes or dope has evolved much, just better training, diet etc.. which better explains incremental increases.

What about Lemond? How does he 15 years later still have the fastest speed even today with the advances in time trial equipment and training? I wonder whether he who cries the loudest is above reproach or it is the voice of a guilty conscience....


A couple of weeks ago I averaged 24 mph over 10 mi at my teams monthly TT riding a steel bike with clip on bars... yet lance could muster only 14.5 mph over a similar distance in the first tour TT this year and he was riding a bike that probably cost more than my (new $30k) car! That dosent mean I'm doping... or that lance isnt (not saying he does or dosent).

24mph with a steel bike and clip on bars! :eek: Joeslow2 is doping! No other possible explaination! Joeslow2 is doping! ;)

JoeSlow tested negative for EPO.......therefore he is still doping!!!!!!....and his whole club is covering it up......a localized consipacy!!! Where the hell is LeMonde when we need him? :eek:

JoeSlow tested negative for EPO.......therefore he is still doping!!!!!!....and his whole club is covering it up......a localized consipacy!!! Where the hell is LeMonde when we need him? :eek:

DOPER! DOPER! DOPER! I hate joeslow2! And all of his joeslow2 fan club!

He was interviewed on the TODAY show this morning and he was asked point blank if he is now or had at any time in the past taken performance enhancing drugs and he said "absolutely not" without hesitation.

I have a question for all the nay-sayers. Is it possible, however remote you may think it is, that Lance is just that damn good? Why not? Did Tiger Woods make a mockery of the rest of the PGA Tour because of performance enhancing drugs? Same question for Michael Jordan or Mike Tyson in his prime. Isn't it possible that they all had a period where they were just better than everyone else?

Lance THAT good? He's good, but Lemond still holds the record for the fastest TT in the Tour... If Lance is "doped", why didn't he smash the record of a "clean" Lemond?

mike tyson is not in parallel to the others.

Because LeMonde is a DOPER!!!!! Burn the Dopers!!!!!!!!!!!!...........oookay...this joke is getting old

the one facts that critics seem to discount would be the team putting that dude to the finish ahead of everybody else. How many of these other riders have that organized of a group of people with the sole purpose of putting one person in the right place when the time is right?

the reason why Lemond's record hasn't been broken is that there hasn't been as easy of a tt course since the 1989 Tour. It was a 25km non-technical, clightly downhill course with a tailwind. Add to that, Lemond had an entire TDF win riding on his shoulders. Every time trial since 1989 has been way over 25km, most on rolling to hilly courses. The only other chance the record has really ever had to get broken is in the prologues and those are just too short and usually too technical to build up the speed before the finish (except for the flat 1994 prologue in Lille which only had 2 turns, in which Chris Boardman DID break the tdf speed record.).

As for Tyler, I would be shattered if he ever tested positive for, or admitted to dopping. The only thing that makes me give the slightest of second thoughts is the fact that he used to ride for Mr. Sixty Percent's team, though as far as I know Bjarne Riis never tested positive for and drugs. (correct me if I'm wrong because I'd like to know how he got the nickname)


By the way, I've heard that Levi Leipheimer had a positive dope test when he was an amateur in the mid-nineties. If that is the case than how did he recieve an Olympic spot? I thought there was a no-tolerence approach to Olympic selection and if an athlete ever tested positive for an illegal substance than they were banned from competing in the Olympics for life? I guess the one way around this would be if he tested positive for something banned by the UCI that wasn't on the IOC's list?

the reason why Lemond's record hasn't been broken is that there hasn't been as easy of a tt course since the 1989 Tour. It was a 25km non-technical, clightly downhill course with a tailwind. Add to that, Lemond had an entire TDF win riding on his shoulders. Every time trial since 1989 has been way over 25km, most on rolling to hilly courses. The only other chance the record has really ever had to get broken is in the prologues and those are just too short and usually too technical to build up the speed before the finish (except for the flat 1994 prologue in Lille which only had 2 turns, in which Chris Boardman DID break the tdf speed record.).

As for Tyler, I would be shattered if he ever tested positive for, or admitted to dopping. The only thing that makes me give the slightest of second thoughts is the fact that he used to ride for Mr. Sixty Percent's team, though as far as I know Bjarne Riis never tested positive for and drugs. (correct me if I'm wrong because I'd like to know how he got the nickname)


By the way, I've heard that Levi Leipheimer had a positive dope test when he was an amateur in the mid-nineties. If that is the case than how did he recieve an Olympic spot? I thought there was a no-tolerence approach to Olympic selection and if an athlete ever tested positive for an illegal substance than they were banned from competing in the Olympics for life? I guess the one way around this would be if he tested positive for something banned by the UCI that wasn't on the IOC's list?



Good points. Greg's record was set on a day in which conditions were favorable to the record, mostly a tailwind. INterestingly, a headwind (piece de resistance) much like a climb would equate to a greater speed differential between 2 riders, so Lemond even worried that he wouldn't be able to make up the 50 seconds on Fignon, but the impossible became possible.

As for the 60 percent tag on Bjarne Riis. The only place I've ever heard of this is on the internet on this forum.

the reason why Lemond's record hasn't been broken is that there hasn't been as easy of a tt course since the 1989 Tour. It was a 25km non-technical, clightly downhill course with a tailwind. Add to that, Lemond had an entire TDF win riding on his shoulders. Every time trial since 1989 has been way over 25km, most on rolling to hilly courses. The only other chance the record has really ever had to get broken is in the prologues and those are just too short and usually too technical to build up the speed before the finish (except for the flat 1994 prologue in Lille which only had 2 turns, in which Chris Boardman DID break the tdf speed record.).

As for Tyler, I would be shattered if he ever tested positive for, or admitted to dopping. The only thing that makes me give the slightest of second thoughts is the fact that he used to ride for Mr. Sixty Percent's team, though as far as I know Bjarne Riis never tested positive for and drugs. (correct me if I'm wrong because I'd like to know how he got the nickname)


By the way, I've heard that Levi Leipheimer had a positive dope test when he was an amateur in the mid-nineties. If that is the case than how did he recieve an Olympic spot? I thought there was a no-tolerence approach to Olympic selection and if an athlete ever tested positive for an illegal substance than they were banned from competing in the Olympics for life? I guess the one way around this would be if he tested positive for something banned by the UCI that wasn't on the IOC's list?

thank you for providing some facts regarding Lemond's TT record. With all the hype about Lemond's TT record and Merckx's 1HR record it's almost as if the discussion is between a few overweight "Da Bears" fans talking about great Ditka, I mean Merckx/Lemond of the past.

No doubt, on appropriately designed course, Lemond's 25km would be easily broken by Lance, Ulrich, Honchar, Hamilton, Ekimov and any other TT specialist of the past 5 years.
Many like to forget that Lemond's record (54.5kph) was over 25km relatively flat course. Lance and Ulrich can average just below that - around 54kph for courses twice as long and much more challenging.

Additionally, Merckx's 1HR record would be easily broken by the same bunch of riders if ridden under the same conditions (exact Merckx's bike replica, at Mexico city ALTITUDE). Boardman wasn't in such a great shape in 2000 and to say that "only Rominger" could have broken the record is just silly. Boardman wasn't even the best TT specialist for several years prior to his 1HR record attempt, and his poor performance in Sydney is just another evidence of that. Given that 1HR record is almost never attempted by top riders in top form anymore (even less rare under UCI "adjusted specially for Merckx" rules) I don't see how much it says to us about the current level of cyclists.

Good points. Greg's record was set on a day in which conditions were favorable to the record, mostly a tailwind. INterestingly, a headwind (piece de resistance) much like a climb would equate to a greater speed differential between 2 riders, so Lemond even worried that he wouldn't be able to make up the 50 seconds on Fignon, but the impossible became possible.

As for the 60 percent tag on Bjarne Riis. The only place I've ever heard of this is on the internet on this forum.


There was a time when what we call enhancing drugs were not banned yet. IMO and others here, Riis used EPO to get to the 60% crit level and was still alllowed to ride. How bout those apples. I cant recall precisely, but the use was before EPO was banned, again, I cant recall the year.

It isalot like folks who think the Hour record is not a great measurement because they can only speculate about really a very prestigious pursuit.

Certainly, there must be an understanding of the highest levels of riding and performance and they come here to slum with us plebes. Its kind really. :rolleyes:

For that matter, why not just genetically engineer cyclists?

Already been done, by the E. Germans. Works pretty well, witness Zabel, Ullrich, and a few others.

OK, I'm kidding a little bit- they weren't 'genetically' engineered, but otherwise I think 'engineering' is a pretty accurate term. And they are fantastic riders.

There was a time when what we call enhancing drugs were not banned yet. IMO and others here, Riis used EPO to get to the 60% crit level and was still alllowed to ride. How bout those apples. I cant recall precisely, but the use was before EPO was banned, again, I cant recall the year.



EPO was on the banned list the year Riis won.

EPO was on the banned list the year Riis won.

Thanks, I really could not recall that. Was there a hemocrit limit as well that year? Curious.

What about Lemond? How does he 15 years later still have the fastest speed even today with the advances in time trial equipment and training? I wonder whether he who cries the loudest is above reproach or it is the voice of a guilty conscience....



Nice try, but this was hashed out in the thread on Hampstens "open letter". Lemond set that record on a short course, with a tailwind, on a bike that is illegal under current UCI regs, (smaller front wheel), in a position (hands in front of face) that is illegal under current UCI regs, and which most riders can't produce full power in anyway.

I don't buy the "Lemond and Hampsten are just jealous" argumant, either. Both men are multi-millionaires. Greg has a huge ranch in Minnesota, Andy has a villa and vinyard in Tuscany. They need nothing. Lemond is speaking out, even when it will likely hurt his business and financial interests. Consider how many "I'll never buy another Lemond bicycle" post we've seen since this fracas started. Not only that, but without Greg and Andy, there wouldn't be a Lance Armstrong. Well, he'd exist, but he'd have stayed a triathelete, because he'd never have been able to make a living racing bikes. What have these two men to be jealous of??

The only criticism I can level at either man as they didn't say these things when they were still racing. Better late than never. And, as I said in the other thread, if you think it's easy to speak out about drugs in cycling, ask Paul Kimmage. He got death threats from other riders. Typically, it's been the domestiques, who take most of the drugs, and the most dangerous ones, who have risked speaking up. It's nice to see some prominent names weighing in, even if it's years later than I would have liked.

For the record, Lance is clean until proven dirty. His support for Michele Ferrari, and his enforcement of the "code of silence" are disappointing and regretable, but are not evidence of guilt.

--Shannon

Additionally, Merckx's 1HR record would be easily broken by the same bunch of riders if ridden under the same conditions (exact Merckx's bike replica, at Mexico city ALTITUDE). Boardman wasn't in such a great shape in 2000 and to say that "only Rominger" could have broken the record is just silly. Boardman wasn't even the best TT specialist for several years prior to his 1HR record attempt, and his poor performance in Sydney is just another evidence of that. Given that 1HR record is almost never attempted by top riders in top form anymore (even less rare under UCI "adjusted specially for Merckx" rules) I don't see how much it says to us about the current level of cyclists.

I'm probably going to go way off subject but here it goes...


When I made the Rominger comment, I was refering to Boardman's 1996 record of over 56km. Honestly I don't think Lance or Ullrich could get near that. The reason I say Rominger was the man to beat it is that in his second attempt he rode over 55km on a track frame with round tubing, in a standard (non-superman) tt position, and with other inferior equipment to Boardman including wheels, etc.

At his peak Chris Boardman was the best time trialist in the world in one day races and one of the major goals in his career was to push the hour record beyond reach. If you look at pictures of him time trialing in 1995, 1994, etc. his race number was usually 56 because it was his lucky number and in his opinion, the farthest a human could possibly ride a bike in 1 hour. In the build up to his 1996 record, his coach Peter Keen and he tested just about every piece of cycling equipment available and they chose whatever was the most efficient and aerodynamic.


various notes of interest regarding Boardman to help back my point...

-Only Rik Verbrugge has ridden a professional tt faster than Boardman (2001 Giro prologue)

-Chris Boardman holds 4 of the top 6 fastest ever professional time trials...

1.Rik Verbrugge 2001 Giro Prologue
2.Chris Boardman 1996 Paris-Nice final tt
3.Chris Boardman 1994 tdf prologue
4.Chris Boardman 1998 tdf prologue
5.Fabian Cancelera 2004 tdf prologue
6.Chris Boardman 1997 tdf prologue

-he never performed well in grand tours because of his stance against taking performance enhancing drugs (which prohibitted him from taking anything to boost his naturally low hormone level)

-he broke the 4000m pursuit record several times in his career and holds the ultimate record of 4:11

-all of his hour record performances were done at sea level which is generally agreed to cost about 1km over an hour ride.