So, I feel like we are hijacking over on race reports so I am starting one here. Discuss this new trend of M35 being Cat 1-4, and what category you race in, and why, and how you like it.

I want to get upgrade points and get to 3's the hard way, even though I feel like a 3 and Diane would upgrade me if i asked. But, its a mental thing. That said, I only raced 4's once this year and that was Amherst cause I found myself there early. I did the M35 3/4 right after and did ok as usual. I got 4th in the 4s almost by accident and did not feel good about racing in that cat. I probably wont again. I did get upgrade points though.

I personally thing the M35 3/4 race is important cause it clears out the 4 race for people who feel more comfortable there. I also think that scoring should be broken out by all categories so that more people get upgrade points. I take myself as an example. I am in the upper third usually of M35 3/4 races, so I feel I am into the 3's, but I will never get the points to get to 3 that way. Points go so "shallow" in the 3s and 4s that most of them go to those who are just passing thru on their way to 2, never to be seen again.

Meanwhile, all of us who are really terminal 3s wont get upgraded to 3 unless we ask based on experience. THat is fine, but does it lead to sandbagging in the 4s?

Maybe I am just jaded from New England Cat 4 road racing. 100 guys and what, 7 get points? And they are all college kids who had easterns in APRIL?

Suggestion 1: Upgrade points go 15 deep in 3's and 4's (not 2s)
Suggestion 2: 3 vs 4 vs 35,45,55 3 vs 4 get scored separately (for upgrade points, not awards). Results on bikereg dont even say what cat people are, so you cant even track your own points within your cat to use when asking to upgrade. How hard would that be?
Suggestion 3: Someone look at results and actaully track them and upgrade people

Neither of those things would affect promoters, or race scheduling, but would certainly help move people thru the lower cats.

Question - How many of you are 3's and got their by points, verses asking to be upgraded, verses being TOLD to upgrade?

Question - If you are a 4 racing in the "B's" or M35 3/4 and you score points (ie actually in the top 7 overall) do you go from 4 to 2? That would seem logical, no? I dunno, I am asking.

I should add that I am a USCF official (but I dont deal with points) so I know how that side of the table is. So dont say its too hard or whatever from the officials standpoint.

snipped:
I'd agree that there are some 1/2/3 masters w/ poor skills but most of the issues I saw were real strong rad races I know who have no technical skills and are new to cross.

My wife (who also races cross) got in on Gewilli's thread. Both her and I are of the though that its better to race above your fitness level and struggle than below and thrive. I personally really like getting to line up with some of the fastest guys in NE, even if thats the last I see of them

-Couch

Not a master but I think about this a fair amount.

I'm a 3 right now who got there on points. Now I'm working on getting to 2, but it's hard to really tell how to do that since getting 1st in a 3/4 race, well, you don't know how many 3's you actually are beating.

I disagree strongly with this suggestion

"Suggestion 1: Upgrade points go 15 deep in 3's and 4's (not 2s)"

Upgrade points should be scaled by field size, but the current field minimum for 3's is 30 racers. 15th/30 should not be worth points. Even as things are currently, 8th/30 is worth points, which seems strange to me.

Upgrade points going 15 deep at Gloucester? Sure. But 15 deep as a rule makes no sense, people who are consistent mid-packers would end up becoming 2's just by picking up 1-3 points per race all season... all without breaking the top 10.

Not a master but I think about this a fair amount.

I'm a 3 right now who got there on points. Now I'm working on getting to 2, but it's hard to really tell how to do that since getting 1st in a 3/4 race, well, you don't know how many 3's you actually are beating.

I disagree strongly with this suggestion

"Suggestion 1: Upgrade points go 15 deep in 3's and 4's (not 2s)"

Upgrade points should be scaled by field size,

>>>> Strongly agree. had not thought of that approach.

but the current field minimum for 3's is 30 racers. 15th/30 should not be worth points.

>>>>Not even ONE point? We are talking 4 to 3 here. I agree not for 3 to 2.

Even as things are currently, 8th/30 is worth points, which seems strange to me.

>>>Its worth 1 point out of 20 or 25 required. You are 8th 20 times, you are a 3. Does it sound weird in that context? Hmmm, 3-2 maybe not. I dont know how I feel about 3 to 2.

Upgrade points going 15 deep at Gloucester? Sure. But 15 deep as a rule makes no sense, people who are consistent mid-packers would end up becoming 2's just by picking up 1-3 points per race all season... all without breaking the top 10.

Hmm, I think I agree with you when you put it that way. If the 3's and 4's were scored separately, each 7 deep, that would be a similar result. There is also the min. top ten rule to fulfill as well.

There is also the 30 rider cap rule in place. If you are a 4, and you were to get 15th in a 3/4 race with 30 people, you would get 1 point. You would have to do that alot to get to be a 3.

Or perhaps leave it as is, but score the 3's and 4's separately, effectively giving you 14 deep. That seems about right. Racing in NE, if you are 14th THAT many times in M35 3/4 or in the B Men 3/4 race, guess what, you should be a 3. You would be based on experience...hmmm.

I dunno, but it seems like IN PRACTICE you really need to be competetive in the field you want to upgrade INTO in order to actually get enough points to do the upgrade. That feels a bit harder then it should be. My gut is that alot of people race a couple years and ask for an upgrade. The system should move you along on its own accord a bit more.

If there were a cat 2 field, I suspect the top 5 in the 3/4 race every week would be right in there in the 2's. Problem is there is no 2 race. I think the B race should probably be 2/3 and the elite race 1/2/3 so you can still race "up". But in that case, the 4's need to be able to move thru. Look at Canton, the 4s was huge and the 2/3 and M1-4 were half.

I definitely see your point though. You are looking at it from the 3 to 2 perspective, which is great feedback.

J

Hmm, I think I agree with you when you put it that way. If the 3's and 4's were scored separately, each 7 deep, that would be a similar result. There is also the min. top ten rule to fulfill as well.

There is also the 30 rider cap rule in place. If you are a 4, and you were to get 15th in a 3/4 race with 30 people, you would get 1 point. You would have to do that alot to get to be a 3.

Or perhaps leave it as is, but score the 3's and 4's separately, effectively giving you 14 deep. That seems about right. Racing in NE, if you are 14th THAT many times in M35 3/4 or in the B Men 3/4 race, guess what, you should be a 3. You would be based on experience...hmmm.

I dunno, but it seems like IN PRACTICE you really need to be competetive in the field you want to upgrade INTO in order to actually get enough points to do the upgrade. That feels a bit harder then it should be. My gut is that alot of people race a couple years and ask for an upgrade. The system should move you along on its own accord a bit more.

If there were a cat 2 field, I suspect the top 5 in the 3/4 race every week would be right in there in the 2's. Problem is there is no 2 race. I think the B race should probably be 2/3 and the elite race 1/2/3 so you can still race "up". But in that case, the 4's need to be able to move thru. Look at Canton, the 4s was huge and the 2/3 and M1-4 were half.

I definitely see your point though. You are looking at it from the 3 to 2 perspective, which is great feedback.

J
I'll jump in here but not to argue the points made above. Honestly, I'm having trouble following the thinking with some of this stuff and what GeWilli has been writing, perhaps because upgrading isn't an objective of mine at all. So consider this from a master's perspective: races are offered for a variety of reasons and not just to set up a fair upgrade/points gathering system. Here's my general take on the master's fields and why they exist.

1) Some guys like to race more socially in a M35 3/4 field. Having been in both (and still currently eligible for both) the M35+ 3/4 is considerably less intense than the M35+ 1/2/3. It is also shorter. It is usually earlier in the day. These things tend to be more appealing to the older guy who wants to dabble in this stuff. He's got the lifestyle/job to support his relatively new and expensive hobby and this is the race for him.

2) The 35+ 3/4 field when combined with the Cs and women's Bs usually justifies an hour of racing. These other fields alone may not drum up the volume necessary to justify a separate race.

3) Most master's race in the master's field because they perceive it as safer than the strict categorized fields. This is likely a carry over from the road where there is more truth to it than in cross.

4) The guys racing master's don't care about upgrading. They are there to battle the guys that they have been racing against for years. The elite master's guys usually have a better prize list than the straight 2/3 or 3/4 field as well. That's right... we all pay for Johnny Bold's new Zipps every year..

5) I don't think there should be any upgrade points given for master's series. The 3/4 master's includes beginners and the elite master's is probably the second fastest field of the day. If you are fast enough to ride the elite master's than you should be fast enough to rip of a couple of podiums in the regular 4s and get your 3 upgrade. Upgrading through the m35+ 3/4 field isn't the way to prepare for the elite master's field.

On upgrading in general (and again I'm not trying to counter any earlier points made here, just stating my opinion): The racer alone needs to look at their season, decide where they have the best opportunity to earn some upgrade points (a newly minted 3 shouldn't hold out high hopes for points in the 2/3 at Gloucester for instance) and work on that. As Jerry said, if you take 15th 10 times in the 3/4 as a 3 you are right where you belong. This season is short and the points good only for a year so you have to make hay while the sun shines. You need to have consistently good results and stay injury free to get the points you need to move from 4 to 3 to 2 and so on with such a short season. There are opportunities to get ahead on some weaker events though, and that gets back to the rider's responsibility for setting up their own season. The 10 points for winning Lake Pleasant's B race isn't the accomplishment that winning Noho's B race is, but that's the reality and all those points count. The Red Sox play the Yankees and the Devil Rays but wins are wins and losses are losses.

So, I feel like we are hijacking over on race reports so I am starting one here. Discuss this new trend of M35 being Cat 1-4, and what category you race in, and why, and how you like it.

Out here in P-town, we race under OBRA so don't have to worry about all that USCF nonsense. Anyway, we've got the following races and fields:

1) 9am: Beginner, 50+
2) 10am: C, 35+C
3) 11am: 35+B, Junior men
4) 12pm: B, SS
5) 1pm: Women: Beginner, B, A, 35+, 45+, Junior
6) 2pm: A, 35+A

There are no upgrade points per se, but people do get notified by the OBRA upgrade hammer that they need to race up. We have some general guidelines and also have a pretty stiff sandbag patrol that also let's people know when they really need to be racing up.

I race in the 35+A category. I've been placing in the top half of the field this season and generally get lapped by 2-6 A racers during a 60 minute race.

In OBRA-land, the biggest steps are from B to A and from 35+B to 35+A. The guy that won the B series last year is placing just a tad above middle of the pack in the 35+A race this season. Dudes that come into the A race from the Bs finish near the bottom until they get some legs.

I don't know that I ever had upgrading as a goal. I want to get faster. That has meant that I've moved to the top of a category or two and realized that it was time to move on. I've never actually won a season series or even placed in the top 5. In fact, last year I expected that I would move up from 35+B to 35+A simply because I was getting faster. However, the upgrade was not my goal.

Now that I'm at the top of the food chain (No, I'm never going to make it to the open As), all I have to worry about is trying to stay afloat in a very competitive group of guys.

I used to think that the USCF cyclocross category structure wasn't a bad thing. Now I do. I like the way we do it here. I don't mind the self selection of categories. I don't mind the loose upgrade guidelines. I like it that folks are concentrating on racing hard and having fun.

i have been a whining self pity-ing PITA the last couple days so I should not even be posting....but I did so now i gotta deal with it.

I race masters, i like M35 3/4 this year, verses last year when it was the C's. Its been a fun race to be in. Speeds and people are good, time slot is good, and the length is good. The knock on the M4 is that its too short.

The B 3/4 race is my other choice, but the timeslot is way to late for me. These young guys with no kids and mortgage...

So maybe to summarize my feelings on race categories: Promoters are offering a PRODUCT. We are the consumer. We should politely let the market know what offerings we prefer, and why. I should not have done that in a whiney post just to get my opinion out there. I think I need to start a blog or something to purge, or maybe just take a nice dump...that always helps.

My opinions on upgrading are from doing work as an official for a long time (though not super often each year). Also from my personal closet of skeletons...I suck at road racing and was never able to upgrade out of 4s. I am a better cross rider, and I want to die a 3, not a permafour. Permathree, mmmm tastey.

Bottom line is I am having a great time doing M35 3/4 so I shed a tear when there is no race for that category. I think I will do the B mens race at Plymouth instead of Open Masters. For sure, 2nd fastest race of the day. That is a nice progression actually (and thus category break down on race day), Cat 4 to M35 3/4 to straight up 3/4. Then Master 1/2/3 then A men. Amen.

J
headed for the can...

One other point on points. It is my understanding that no (official) upgrade points are offered for master's races. If you want the points, you have to race your straight category.

Given that, I've also been thinking that I'd like to upgrade to Cat2, however, this would mean racing the regular A's or B's. I've never tried a B race but I tried an A race (small P/1/2/3 one in ME) and finished a solid 2/3 of the way back. No points coming from that.

So, do I just live as a Cat3 or do I go dice it out in the killer B's? Unfortunately, I'm in exactly the same boat on the road.

-Couch

i have been a whining self pity-ing PITA the last couple days so I should not even be posting....but I did so now i gotta deal with it...

So maybe to summarize my feelings on race categories: Promoters are offering a PRODUCT. We are the consumer. We should politely let the market know what offerings we prefer, and why. I should not have done that in a whiney post just to get my opinion out there. I think I need to start a blog or something to purge, or maybe just take a nice dump...that always helps....

Bottom line is I am having a great time doing M35 3/4 so I shed a tear when there is no race for that category. I think I will do the B mens race at Plymouth instead of Open Masters. For sure, 2nd fastest race of the day. That is a nice progression actually (and thus category break down on race day), Cat 4 to M35 3/4 to straight up 3/4. Then Master 1/2/3 then A men. Amen.


I didn't think that you were whining, or perhaps just because I'm not quite following the upgrade rant in general I didn't take it as whining.

I agree with your thoughts as expressed in the last two paragraphs above. Usually the smaller races don't have the 3/4 master's, but in those races the 3 is an reasonable surrogate. I'm going the A races at Plymouth and Putney but back to the elite masters for the USGP & VERGE races.

Race hard - Matt

This may end up being a bit long, but I've got a pretty firm opinion and almost 20 years of racing to look back on........

I'm a category 3 on the road. I am a lifer in the 3's on the road. No desire to upgrade at 33 years old either. I feelI could do it with training and focust but I've got a job, a mortgage, a wife, all who mean more to me than racing at this point in my life. However, I enjoy racing A LOT.
I took two years off while my wife finished up her culinary degree. It was a time to reflect and recharge after almost 17 years straight of racing from April to September in Road and Mtn bikes.

I tried cross a 3 times 4-5 years ago. Since I was a category 3 at the time and they only had A/B/C races at the time I was forced to race B's since I was a 3 on the road. It SUCKED, I SUCKED. Just because you're a 3 on the road, does not translate to a 3 in cross, just like Expert doesn't = Category 2 on the road. I said screw this and forgot about cross until last year.

I used cross as my first races back from my 2 year hiatus. I got my license towards the end of 2006 and asked Diane Fortini to downgrade my cross category to a 4. I felt justified after 20 months away from any sort of racing. I did okay at the few races I did. Top 15 most of the time. I got to improve my skills a bit and race against guys I could feel competitive against.
This year I have done a few more cross races. Still doing Category 4 races and placing about the same as last year usually top 1/3-1/4 of the race. I'm going to keep racing 4's until I can get some more experience and maybe a few upgrade points.
Next year I am eligible for the 35+ 3/4 fields. This will probably be my main source of racing IF I feel competitive. I'd rather race with people I can compete with than get my butt handed to me on a regular basis. I know I race about the same level as Eyebob and a few others so we will see what happens.
I tend to agree with the mentality of racing 35+ is a bit "safer" for us working guys. We're not competing with the newest 16-17 year old wonder kid who is blasting through the ranks and doesn't have a care in the world because his parents take care of his insurance and he can relax on Monday, not run to work, worry about bills, training, kids, dog, wife, birhtdays, anniversarys, etc.....
I don't think the 35+ is easier, it is more that most of us have the same perspective on life and know that we are just looking to have fun, be competitive, and do it because we enjoy it. I came to the realization about the age of 26 that I was going to be sticking in the 3's on the road, Sport in the woods, and looking to be a 4 in cross for the time being. With the ability to race a masters 3/4 race and/or a 4 only race, I have options all season long next year.

All that being said, if you want to upgrade, race your category (4,3,2,etc). No points should be given the the Master's races. It just isn't the same. In the open categories you get to race against 15-50 year olds if you wish, which I think truely tells you were you are in the overall picture of that specific category. In the masters races, you are racing against a select group of people in a certain age bracket that you are testing yourself against. All that tells you is how you are doing compared to guys close to your age.

All that being said, if you want to upgrade, race your category (4,3,2,etc). No points should be given the the Master's races.

amen brother -

Upgrade points should only be by category, not in the Master's Field.

I'm a 4. I'll prolly always be a 4. But I'm also 40, this gives me options at every race. I don't really care to upgrade, I mean it'd be nice to be a 3, but I don't lie awake thinking about it.

Last year was my first year of cross. I raced as a 4 because I had zero skills. This year, I race as a Master's becuase I find it funner and safer. I race the 4 now ONLY if there is no Master's B race (like Canton). When I feel better (currently dealing with Lyme) I don't think that I'll race 4s again. Personally, I like racing with guys my age, the ones that I train with and talk to all the time.

BT