what is the proper behavoir for a racer to move up to the a's? our series leader has won every B race he's entered and I can kind of understand his desire to win the series, but should an undefeated record after 5 races be enough to "force" him out of the b's and up to the a's? plus, it's not like he's new to cross. he was among the leaders at nationals last year.

I like the northwest notion of not rewarding the b race leaders in an attempt to discourage sandbagging. from those of you out there, does that seem to work? should we just heckle the crap out of the guy until he gets the hint or should we accept that he is a superior b racer and get faster ourselves? or should we cut his brake cables so he crashes and burns?:D

Start a blog and commence with the public shaming.

But since you are one of the people being beaten by him, your motivation for doing so would be questioned and possibly ridiculed.

what series are you talking about? I know there was that guy who won the Gloucester B races easily... but that's only 2 races... and I don't even see him on the start list for this weekend.

yea rosey, who are we talking about here?

we could just get someone to take him out at the start. esp this weekend, where both the starts can be really "interesting" to say the least.

what series are you talking about? I know there was that guy who won the Gloucester B races easily... but that's only 2 races... and I don't even see him on the start list for this weekend.
he won the 2/3 that you skipped in Canton... Only won by 20 seconds, but he chased from well back in the field and rode up to and past the second place guy with ease.

Contact your local upgrade coordinator and ask him/her to force an upgrade. Simple as that.

if they won two races, they must be awful close to mandatory upgrade anyway, probably over if he raced anywhere else. Call diane and politely point it out.

check the points on crossresults.com that site rocks the house.

Oh, you mean John Peterson (http://www.crossresults.com/?n=racers&sn=r&rID=729).

Vonteityis right. Looks like he has 34 upgrade points from 2/3 races in the last 12 months. (Gloucester 1 + 2, Canton, Caster's) 40 points is an automatic upgrade, 25 is the minimum, so he didn't actually have enough points to become a 1 until Canton. So it's entirely possible he'll be leaving us alone now.

If not, another win will put him at the automatic upgrade point, after which Vonteity's advice would be necessary.

I've got the very unfavorable opinion that nobody but the Pro 1/2 categories should get money no matter what type of race (road, crit, cross, mtn, etc). 5,4,3 and masters should just get schwag and medals. But that is another topic all together.

If he is enjoying the payday, then eliminating cash would be discouraging. If he is enjoying the ego stroke, that is another thing. But as the others have pointed out, he's almost reached mandatory upgrade anyways.

You generally see it every year in the category 3 races anyways. A friend/ former teammate of mine did it from a 3-2 (then to a cat. 1) back about 5-6 years ago now. He did really well that year. Kind of ticked some other guys/team off, but we sure won a lot as a team that year.
I had the experience of racing against a super young Justin Spinelli when he killed the cat. 3 races in New England back in the day.
Also saw it with several other now prominent cat 1&2 riders.....

Here is my take. This happens in category 3 because you got a guy/gal with huge talent who moved up from 5 to 4 probably with no problem. They build their real experience then in the category 3 races which tend to be a bit more challenging and it would be suicide to jump right into a Pro/1/2 race as soon as you get the minimum points required. So category 3 "lifers" (like myself) get to see this over and over again. Eventually the mandatory points kick in and they go race with the big boys.

ok, so i am not very subtle. i am interested to hear how the lack of prize money works for people in the west.

ok, so i am not very subtle. i am interested to hear how the lack of prize money works for people in the west.

I could never race out west, how would I feed my kids without the lucrative income of a cat 3 allstar!

I for one like to move up whenever there is the slightest hint that I can win* (mostly because I'm crazy....and I like the race to last as long as possible :devil:) I don't feel like I deserve a win if I don't have to work my arse off for it, and I don't understand why anyone else would.

*(I only did one C race-> got 4th-> moved up to B -> got DFL at the next two races:yikes:.....but it's all in good fun anyway, right?)

Georgia-Cross only has a payout for CX 1/2. Everyone else gets swag. Didn't stop a pro triathlete from smoking everyone all season [last year] in the B races and taking the swag (Blue frame) as the men's B series winner (he even placed 7th in the A race which started 15min. after he won the B race at the series finale!). I'm not bitter :prrr: . [on the upside, he was heckled and hasn't been back this year]

I think the new cx1/2, 3, 4/5 system should solve any remaining problems. Before this it seemed like anyone could register for the event of their choice, since there was no category displayed on their license.

In Colorado, where we have etiquete, no one would ever want to live throught the shame of being labeled a sandbagger!
In general, partly because we have (for now) the ACA as opposed to USAC, racers upgrade at the first possibility sometimes convinceing the officials to fudge their points a little or just plain ask the other racers! This happens less on the road but is really expected in Cross. Also considering that we have Men's Open rather than Pro1/2 there wuld be no excuse for a cat 3 or 4 to not make the step up. Also interesting is that the Open fields are generally the smallest in number on any given weekend, with the 4s being largest and the 3s in the middle.

oh and $ only for the Pros/Opens the way it should be.

i dont know this guy from a whole in the wall... so this isnt directed at him... but, i dont really understand the ego-stoking of staying in the B's just to win. in my mind, i would rather be in the Elites, then consistantly winning the B's.

then again... sounds like he is still playing by the rules.

I've got the very unfavorable opinion that nobody but the Pro 1/2 categories should get money no matter what type of race (road, crit, cross, mtn, etc). 5,4,3 and masters should just get schwag and medals. But that is another topic all together.

If he is enjoying the payday, then eliminating cash would be discouraging. If he is enjoying the ego stroke, that is another thing. But as the others have pointed out, he's almost reached mandatory upgrade anyways.

You generally see it every year in the category 3 races anyways. A friend/ former teammate of mine did it from a 3-2 (then to a cat. 1) back about 5-6 years ago now. He did really well that year. Kind of ticked some other guys/team off, but we sure won a lot as a team that year.
I had the experience of racing against a super young Justin Spinelli when he killed the cat. 3 races in New England back in the day.
Also saw it with several other now prominent cat 1&2 riders.....

Here is my take. This happens in category 3 because you got a guy/gal with huge talent who moved up from 5 to 4 probably with no problem. They build their real experience then in the category 3 races which tend to be a bit more challenging and it would be suicide to jump right into a Pro/1/2 race as soon as you get the minimum points required. So category 3 "lifers" (like myself) get to see this over and over again. Eventually the mandatory points kick in and they go race with the big boys.

Who is paying money to B cross racers? I've seen this only once, at a race in PA, and the promoter was "discouraged" by other promoters from doing it again.

Who is paying money to B cross racers? I've seen this only once, at a race in PA, and the promoter was "discouraged" by other promoters from doing it again.

New Englad is.

Cheshire Cross (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5202)

VT Psycho Cross (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5328)

Palmer Cross (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5341)

BRC/Slick Willy (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5411)

Quite a few races that have already happened (thus I can't easily find their prize lists) have as well this year.

If you bring it to Diane's attention, she will probably mention it to him at the next race she sees him at. But what can you do? He's a cat 2. And the "B" races he has won have all been 2/3 races. He hasn't been doing the 3/4 "B" races. Eventually he'll get his cat 1 upgrade.

oh and $ only for the Pros/Opens the way it should be.

Geez, I understand that bike racers are gluttons for punishment, but why have the attitude that we shouldn't occasionally get rewarded for the literally 1000s of dollars and 100s of hours that we put into the "hobby." The last thing that anyone typically needs is some piece of dust-covered merchandise from the sponsor bike shop anyways. And I've got plenty of socks.

Plus, it's great to have the opportunity to dip into an envelope all week long rather than hitting the ATM.

And, I've unintentionally "mis-categorized" myself in some MTB races before, and there is nothing glamorous about riding off the front of a race that you don't belong in- you feel like a total jack-hole!

New England is.

Cheshire Cross (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5202)

VT Psycho Cross (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5328)

Palmer Cross (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5341)

BRC/Slick Willy (http://www.bikereg.com/events/register.asp?eventid=5411)

Quite a few races that have already happened (thus I can't easily find their prize lists) have as well this year.

Well, damn. I should do some of the local races in New England.

I agree that it's silly, but it's no more silly than paying out a bunch of cash to a 4 field in a crit.

[QUOTE=bmafia]Geez, I understand that bike racers are gluttons for punishment, but why have the attitude that we shouldn't occasionally get rewarded for the literally 1000s of dollars and 100s of hours that we put into the "hobby." The last thing that anyone typically needs is some piece of dust-covered merchandise from the sponsor bike shop anyways. And I've got plenty of socks.
QUOTE]

Because in reality that small payoff doesn't come close to equalling the money or time I put into this sport. So give me a medal thank I can hang on the "I Love Me Wall" at home.

Because we are AMATEURS. I've always had the impression/mentality that amateurs should not get paid, this isn't my job, it's my lifestyle.

I could almost bet that most of the money most people win goes right into the gas tank, post race meal, or a bike specific purchase anyways.

The payment I get is weighing the same (or less in mid-summer) as I did in high school 15 years ago. My life insurance rates are killer low too compared to the average guy my age, so that money I save is like winning too :D

the prize for 1st place in the B race should be a FREE entry in an A race and nothing else.

If you bring it to Diane's attention, she will probably mention it to him at the next race she sees him at. But what can you do? He's a cat 2. And the "B" races he has won have all been 2/3 races. He hasn't been doing the 3/4 "B" races. Eventually he'll get his cat 1 upgrade.

if he is a 2, and only doing advertised 2/3 B races in order to get points to get his 1 upgrade, then he is doing the right thing, is he not? I mean, in an altruistic world he would do one B race and say, heck I can hang with the A's. But in that case, he would NEVER get his 2-1 upgrade cause he is always racing the 1's.

It probably means alot to someone to be able to say they are a 1 verses a 2. So he deserves to win a couple races.

That said, once he has enough points for self upgrade (not mandatory) I would suggest that etiquette requires requesting your upgrade. I dont think you should ever wait for an official to have to "police" you up a category cause you went over the max points.

We are all amateurs at that level and its not fair to the other competitors at that point, IMHO. In the top category, yah, spank people every week, dominate, go crazy. But when you are down a level, once you dominate and earn your points, you should move one to let someone else enjoy a little success. So few people actually get top 5 in races over the course of the season (ie alot of the same faces over and over).

Once again, I wish that results would list our category, not for sandbag police reasons, but cause I would genuinely like to know how everyone fits in and stacks up, myself included. That, and the INFO IS THERE, just not being printed out.

J

the prize for 1st place in the B race should be a FREE entry in an A race and nothing else.

PERFECT IDEA!!!:thumbsup:

Jerry,
Funny thing happened at Dayville. They did list each racer's category, and there were a couple of cat 3s in the cat 4 race. Busted! But I don't think they were fighting for the win, so nobody really cared.

Yeah, I was loving the category listings from Dayville. Plus I found out that Frank McCormack is a 3!

Jerry,
Funny thing happened at Dayville. They did list each racer's category, and there were a couple of cat 3s in the cat 4 race. Busted! But I don't think they were fighting for the win, so nobody really cared.


I think alot of us perma fours/threes just want to know how we are doing relative to others, to help define our little place in the world....since we are never going to find out by being rockstars and Cat 1 race winners and awesome masters racing dominators.

I am an engineer so I just love my data.

J

Jerry,
Funny thing happened at Dayville. They did list each racer's category, and there were a couple of cat 3s in the cat 4 race. Busted! But I don't think they were fighting for the win, so nobody really cared.

just to point 1 thing out, they have a few ppl listed as riding for the wrong club (me included) when I saw it

After he won B men by 40 seconds today, I take back anything I said that suggested he isn't a sandbagger.

you read my mind :D

I'm writing this post in the post race delerium...

I see why people don't want lower categories to get $$, but don't force your opinions on everyone.

It seems in the OBRA series they are very hawkish about making dominating riders upgrade, which is great. However, I also think that a racer should be able to savor a handfull of victories before they are "shamed" into upgrading. Most amateur riders only win a small number of races in their entire career, and at some point they are going to plateau and just be one of the average peleton.

Why is a race winner automatically a sandbagger? Yeah, I know there are real sandbaggers, and they suck, but around here sometimes it seems there is a culture of ejecting the strong riders into the next category out of spite. I suspect that this may be fueled by jealousy.

Anyone sandbagging for cash in any bike race is a total idiot. Why spend 5k+ on a bike, and then stoop to scoop up $50 or $100 or whatever it may be?
I won two crits this season (and have since upgraded). I'm really glad they did have a tiny prize pot in cat 4. The money didn't amount to much, but it somehow made it all seam a bit cooler. In then end I'm just racing for fun and respect, but a free lunch on the way home for me any my wife put a smile on my face.