This poll is intended for those who may vote for Rudy Guiliani in the 2008 election.
Does Pat Robertson's endorsement have any effect on your decision?

1. Yes
2. No.

I would not vote for Guiliani, but Robertson's endorsement means nothing even if I was considering Guiliani. A candidate can't control who makes an endorsement.

separation of church and state. period.

Nope, not in the least

Only in the sense that I usually find it a good idea to do the opposite of what he says...

I mean, the guy sells his own brand of "life extending power shakes" for @#$%s sake.:mad2:

SHOW YOURSELF!!!

...and explain....:D

SHOW YOURSELF!!!

...and explain....:D

I didn't vote, but I'd answer "yes" for pretty much the same reason as Buck: If Robertson is endorsing someone, they're probably the last person I'd want to see in office.

anyone should ask any candidate that gets Robertsons endorsement is

"So you too believe 9-11 was caused by God to punish America for its sinful ways?"

gee I remember when the religious right used to worry about people's extramarital affars

I guess divorcing your wife for your mistress via a press conference doesn't count

I remember when they were the 'family values' crowd
I guess having your kids loathe you doesn't count either

I remember when being anti gay and anti abortion meant something to the party
and being pro either of these was a politcal death sentence

just when I thought the religious right couldn't stoop any lower at being the GOPs Tuesday girl

once again they have turned their backs on their beliefs for another roll in the hay with the Pharisees and the Money Changers

anyone should ask any candidate that gets Robertsons endorsement is

"So you too believe 9-11 was caused by God to punish America for its sinful ways?"

gee I remember when the religious right used to worry about people's extramarital affars

I guess divorcing your wife for your mistress via a press conference doesn't count

I remember when they were the 'family values' crowd
I guess having your kids loathe you doesn't count either

I remember when being anti gay and anti abortion meant something to the party
and being pro either of these was a politcal death sentence

just when I thought the religious right couldn't stoop any lower at being the GOPs Tuesday girl

once again they have turned their backs on their beliefs for another roll in the hay with the Pharisees and the Money Changers

Robertson seems to be causing more of a stir among you anti religion Bush haters than any other segment. He brings a pretty big bloc of votes with him in spite of your disdain.

2. No.

He brings a pretty big bloc of votes with him in spite of your disdain.



The 700 Club is one of the funniest shows on TV.

anyone should ask any candidate that gets Robertsons endorsement is

"So you too believe 9-11 was caused by God to punish America for its sinful ways?"

gee I remember when the religious right used to worry about people's extramarital affars

I guess divorcing your wife for your mistress via a press conference doesn't count

I remember when they were the 'family values' crowd
I guess having your kids loathe you doesn't count either

I remember when being anti gay and anti abortion meant something to the party
and being pro either of these was a politcal death sentence

just when I thought the religious right couldn't stoop any lower at being the GOPs Tuesday girl

once again they have turned their backs on their beliefs for another roll in the hay with the Pharisees and the Money Changers

Oh but look back further for your allusions ATP, for just when The Lord had made up The Lord's mind to exterminate The Lord's handiwork, a once lowly abandoned Hebrew interceded and persuaded The Lord that they aint all that bad, they need more experience to gain wisdom, give them some freedom of choice, let them make mistakes, let each generation improve the next, can you not let us get our self-actualization on with Your Commandments? A Conjunction Junction for O Israel Yo ?

The 700 Club is one of the funniest shows on TV.

Regular viewer are you?

Oh but look back further for your allusions ATP, for just when The Lord had made up The Lord's mind to exterminate The Lord's handiwork, a once lowly abandoned Hebrew interceded and persuaded The Lord that they aint all that bad, they need more experience to gain wisdom, give them some freedom of choice, let them make mistakes, let each generation improve the next, can you not let us get our self-actualization on with Your Commandments? A Conjunction Junction for O Israel Yo ?

but the notion of free will is exclusive with the concept of an omnipotent and omniscient God.

what a loser, God makes people in His image. When they F up (a reflection upon thy maker) he wants to wipe them all out.

take that notion and add it to thje story of Lot and again we see a God with the emotional equivalent of a 10 year old.

The 700 Club is one of the funniest shows on TV.

It's dull. Old hat. Like SNL. Kenneth Copeland though, he's kinda fun to watch. He has a physically big head with distinct facial features that reminds me of those old bobble-headed "Thunderbirds" puppets on that Saturday morning cartoon I used to watch.

but the notion of free will is exclusive with the concept of an omnipotent and omniscient God.

Sorry for you ATP, that you have yet to realize that those two terms incompletely define God and Man and freewill as presented in Scripture. Get out of the lesser philosophers and read one book from cover to cover, for starters -- try the Oxford Bible -- if you haven't all ready. Read my suggestion as a dare, chicken.

Sorry for you ATP, that you have yet to realize that those two terms incompletely define God and Man and freewill as presented in Scripture. Get out of the lesser philosophers and read one book from cover to cover, for starters -- try the Oxford Bible -- if you haven't all ready. Read my suggestion as a dare, chicken.

if God knows the outcomes, then the game is rigged. you have no choice. like shooting craps with loaded dice, the concept of choice is allusory.

you should know that given your past.

read Oxford, Read the Maccabi, read the Nag Hamadi, read the Bhagavad Gita and the book of the Dead.

some people find God at the top of a mountain, others at the bottom of a well. makes your relationship with the divine completely different.

Regular viewer are you?

Know Thy Enemy.
It's either that or love your enemy.
I have no problem with people allowing their spiritual beliefs to be a factor in their voting decisions. But I'd hope I was both intelligent and spiritual enough to tackle the decision on my own. There's no reason to allow John Stewart or Pat Robertson make the decision for us.

if God knows the outcomes, then the game is rigged. you have no choice. like shooting craps with loaded dice, the concept of choice is allusory.

you should know that given your past.

read Oxford, Read the Maccabi, read the Nag Hamadi, read the Bhagavad Gita and the book of the Dead.

some people find God at the top of a mountain, others at the bottom of a well. makes your relationship with the divine completely different.

Unlike the game you cite that I never played, the game of Hold Em comprises a very unique, ever-changing combination of skill and chance, so re-figger a bigger analogy ATP.

if God knows the outcomes, then the game is rigged. you have no choice. like shooting craps with loaded dice, the concept of choice is allusory.

you should know that given your past.

read Oxford, Read the Maccabi, read the Nag Hamadi, read the Bhagavad Gita and the book of the Dead.

some people find God at the top of a mountain, others at the bottom of a well. makes your relationship with the divine completely different.

Don't forget; God told me too! AND that was after all my business failures, being a drunk, snortin coke, going AWOL, and out doing by brother Neil. Thanks daddy for giving me that last name, or I would be in NO WHERE LAND.

Don't forget; God told me too! AND that was after all my business failures, being a drunk, snortin coke, going AWOL, and out doing by brother Neil. Thanks daddy for giving me that last name, or I would be in NO WHERE LAND.

Yellow moon, yellow moon,
why you keep peeping in my window?
Do you know something I don't know?

Know Thy Enemy.
It's either that or love your enemy.
I have no problem with people allowing their spiritual beliefs to be a factor in their voting decisions. But I'd hope I was both intelligent and spiritual enough to tackle the decision on my own. There's no reason to allow John Stewart or Pat Robertson make the decision for us.

Or Al Sharpton of Jesse Jackson? If one has spiritual beliefs, they guide every aspect of ones life. God won't strike you down if you disagree with Pat Robertson but Pat has a great deal of influence with a great many people and they are likely to agree politically as well as spiritually. A politician can ignore him or antagonize him at their own peril. People who can swing a lot of votes aren't necessarily limited to spiritual leaders, they are just the most obvious.

One has to admire the delicious irony of Robertson backing the one person, who through his beliefs in gay rights and abortion...will inevitably bring about another 9/11 at the hands of God.

Regular viewer are you?

Actually, I used to be. My wife used to watch "Who's Line" on the ABC Family channel. She'd go to bed and I'd be working or wasting time here, too lazy to change the channel when the 700 Club came on. So, in the background it played and I would sit here laughing harder at some of the stupid sh*t that came out of Robertson's mouth than I did at the stuff on Who's Line.

I probably "watched" 700 Club more consistently last year than any other show.

One has to admire the delicious irony of Robertson backing the one person, who through his beliefs in gay rights and abortion...will inevitably bring about another 9/11 at the hands of God.

If you want delicious irony, there is more of that in the attitude that Robertson is a clown and not worth paying attention to. It has probably cost Democrats two elections and will, at some point, cost them others. I think Robertson is about as bad as he is portrayed but he gives people who feel their religious belief and practice are under attack a place to turn and some degree of unification. When you have to accept what might be termed as radical baggage, you accept that which is less offensive to you. It's why the homosexual and abortion issues are always in the forefront politically. Not everyone that agrees with Robertson on gay marriage and abortion buys into that 9/11 thing but that is an eccentricity they can live with. While Democrats laugh and tell one another how sophisticated they are in these matters, they lose elections.

After the first attack on the WTC, I honestly believed the radical Islamists were incompetant clowns with delusions of grandeur. I was verry wrong. Sometimes you have to look beneath the clownish exterior.

Unlike the game you cite that I never played, the game of Hold Em comprises a very unique, ever-changing combination of skill and chance, so re-figger a bigger analogy ATP.

Hold em with a marked deck that YOU only knew about

if you knew every card everyone was holding, then there really is no game

[QUOTE=atpjunkie]Hold em with a marked deck that YOU only knew about

if you knew every card everyone was holding, then there really is no game[/QUOTE

Well, that means one player has those special powers, and eight don't. Total of nine calling or folding, checking or betting. When Seat One folds, ATP, you're still in the game along with up to seven others, so play the cards you're dealt, sweaty.

[QUOTE=atpjunkie]Hold em with a marked deck that YOU only knew about

if you knew every card everyone was holding, then there really is no game[/QUOTE

Well, that means one player has those special powers, and eight don't. Total of nine calling or folding, checking or betting. When Seat One folds, ATP, you're still in the game along with up to seven others, so play the cards you're dealt, sweaty.

who thought it was an even game (assuming they don't know player 1 knows it is rigged)
only have the illusion they are playing

if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, you have made no choice. Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive

and if this is the case, eve was frickin set up

they burned a monk for thinking of this

[QUOTE=Joe Starck]

who thought it was an even game (assuming they don't know player 1 knows it is rigged)
only have the illusion they are playing

if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, you have made no choice. Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive

and if this is the case, eve was frickin set up

they burned a monk for thinking of this

Let's take a break from the chip action, short stack.

You make choices based on less than perfect cause/effect skill. You have the perspective of free will, and that perspective is your existance. That there could be one all-knowing perspective of perfect cause/effect, God perhaps, is irrelevant to your relational existance with God and others. The philosophical concept of "predestination" is meaningless, it is false. What does it matter the differ of your less-than and the one-perfect perspective? Nothing at all. It's just one type of talent, sweaty.

I just think he plays Cosmic Crapshoot

far more interesting way to spend eternity than knowing everything that is ever gonna happen, ever. how frickin boring would that be?

if God knows your choice before you make it (take eve and the serpent for example)
then she didn't really make a choice, the path was predetermined, which therefore also means, no original sin. all a big set up.

it's really a simple construct Joe and it isn't anything like watching an ant trail or a parade from a baloon.

if all outcomes are set, choice is only an illusion

I just think he plays Cosmic Crapshoot

far more interesting way to spend eternity than knowing everything that is ever gonna happen, ever. how frickin boring would that be?

if God knows your choice before you make it (take eve and the serpent for example)
then she didn't really make a choice, the path was predetermined, which therefore also means, no original sin. all a big set up.

it's really a simple construct Joe and it isn't anything like watching an ant trail or a parade from a baloon.

if all outcomes are set, choice is only an illusion

The older I get the more I believe that God may actually be a woman. Man can't really understand either one. I do agree with you that the directions our lives take and who and what we become are up to us

I just think he plays Cosmic Crapshoot

far more interesting way to spend eternity than knowing everything that is ever gonna happen, ever. how frickin boring would that be?

if God knows your choice before you make it (take eve and the serpent for example)
then she didn't really make a choice, the path was predetermined, which therefore also means, no original sin. all a big set up.

it's really a simple construct Joe and it isn't anything like watching an ant trail or a parade from a baloon.

if all outcomes are set, choice is only an illusion

Your "simple construct" is inaccurate, ATP, your "If God...predetermined."

but the notion of free will is exclusive with the concept of an omnipotent and omniscient God.

what a loser, God makes people in His image. When they F up (a reflection upon thy maker) he wants to wipe them all out.

take that notion and add it to thje story of Lot and again we see a God with the emotional equivalent of a 10 year old.

Maybe if it's people who make God in their own image, then the father/punisher personna fits.

The older I get the more I believe that God may actually be a woman.

Either that or he's gay.

if all outcomes are set, choice is only an illusion

That could be true, but, hypothetically, limited as true from only one perfect perspective, from one all-knowing cause/effect creator/analyst, from one perfectly complete structure of perception, from one you can speculate/conceive about, ATP, but cannot experience likewise.

Consequence is not an illusion of your structure of perception, ATP,. nor of several billion other choosers.

Genesis says the same, not that it needs to.

You choose to mock Genesis because your structure of perception leans that way, be yours be more similar to the drunk, speedfreak, or pothead, to the right-wing or left-wing, to the anti-capitalist or anti-socialist, to the anti-Christian or anti-ant visioners, et al and here I've exaggerated to make a point, that there are morbidly altered structures of perception, vis a vis morbidly-altered consciousnesses, and to make my list conplete: and then there are others.

What are you ATP?

it is one of the oldest most well known heresy's ever brought to the church. it was brought up by a monk, a man of devout beliefs. Because the church recognized the guy had a point, their only solution was to burn him.

maybe you need to study that book you've been reading a bit more from the outside.

saying, the understanding is beyond me is a cop out. It's the same one every devout person who believes such takes. There is no choice if all is predetermined. If God knows the future, all is predetermined, thus no choice. You may think you are making one, but it has already been made. It's pretty cut and dry Joe, but it doesn't fit your cosmology so you'll just say "It is beyond our mortal understanding' lame.

as for me, I believe in the divine. I don't believe in an old man in the sky. Joe I'd love to explain it to ya cause I've already been there. atp has had his little adventure to the other side and I'm sorry to say, it ain't nothing like you think it is. I'd tell ya all about it, but since you only like stories that match your ontological and cosmological view it would be a waste.

I am a Gnostic , my God likes me to think

it is one of the oldest most well known heresy's ever brought to the church. it was brought up by a monk, a man of devout beliefs. Because the church recognized the guy had a point, their only solution was to burn him.

maybe you need to study that book you've been reading a bit more from the outside.

saying, the understanding is beyond me is a cop out. It's the same one every devout person who believes such takes. There is no choice if all is predetermined. If God knows the future, all is predetermined, thus no choice. You may think you are making one, but it has already been made. It's pretty cut and dry Joe, but it doesn't fit your cosmology so you'll just say "It is beyond our mortal understanding' lame.

as for me, I believe in the divine. I don't believe in an old man in the sky. Joe I'd love to explain it to ya cause I've already been there. atp has had his little adventure to the other side and I'm sorry to say, it ain't nothing like you think it is. I'd tell ya all about it, but since you only like stories that match your ontological and cosmological view it would be a waste.

I am a Gnostic , my God likes me to think

It's your game that's "lame," ATP, as you've repeatedly demonstrated, and likewise as you have here with your post of presumptions, i.e., what I've said is not the same as "beyond our understanding," nor has anything I've said concur with a belief "in an old man in the sky." These two constructs you wish to define me with are your delusions, ATP, they evidence your bigotry and your self-aggrandizement, your rut of rabid socialist stink that intoxicates you into actions of intolerance towards those you wish to diminish, demean, and exact unjust retribution on, and therefore induce alienation from your fantasy world of social-injustice comrades whose mental health lies in the self-evident range of pre-psychotic to psychotic. That's my assessment of you ATP, but prove me wrong with a Strarck-slaying recount of "your little adventure to the other side," ATP; we all like surprise, junkie, sock it to me.

It's your game that's "lame," ATP, as you've repeatedly demonstrated, and likewise as you have here with your post of presumptions, i.e., what I've said is not the same as "beyond our understanding," nor has anything I've said concur with a belief "in an old man in the sky." These two constructs you wish to define me with are your delusions, ATP, they evidence your bigotry and your self-aggrandizement, your rut of rabid socialist stink that intoxicates you into actions of intolerance towards those you wish to diminish, demean, and exact unjust retribution on, and therefore induce alienation from your fantasy world of social-injustice comrades whose mental health lies in the self-evident range of pre-psychotic to psychotic. That's my assessment of you ATP, but prove me wrong with a Strarck-slaying recount of "your little adventure to the other side," ATP; we all like surprise, junkie, sock it to me.

Anybody have a copy of the Number 651, November 2, 2007 issue of "SOCIALISTWORKER?"

It's a publication of ISO, the International Socialist Organization.

On page 12, in the "Where We Stand" section, too much of it seems too wrong, little seems right: "...Marxist tradition..."

Anybody here "commited to" ISO? Anybody not?

[QUOTE=Joe Starck]

who thought it was an even game (assuming they don't know player 1 knows it is rigged)
only have the illusion they are playing

if God knows what you are going to do before you do it, you have made no choice. Predestination and free will are mutually exclusive

and if this is the case, eve was frickin set up

they burned a monk for thinking of this

ATP,

Why do you say "eve was frinckin set up?"

And what does "they burned a monk for thinking of this" refer to?

Robertson seems to be causing more of a stir among you anti religion Bush haters than any other segment. He brings a pretty big bloc of votes with him in spite of your disdain.

George W. Bush does not own religion. Just as many "religious" persons who dislike Bush as those who do. Someone needs to take hold of your high horse while you dismount. As for Pat Robertson - guides hurricanes; kids who trick or treat are bound for hell; 9-11 was payback and on and on. One Phrase sums up the Chiristian religion: Love thy neighbor (black, white, yellow) - clothe the naked - just be a GOOD person. Leave the doors of those chained up churches opened for the homeless? Opps, they might get the pews dirty!!!!! May Pat and George and Rudi all just go away together and have an orgie.

George W. Bush does not own religion. Just as many "religious" persons who dislike Bush as those who do. Someone needs to take hold of your high horse while you dismount. As for Pat Robertson - guides hurricanes; kids who trick or treat are bound for hell; 9-11 was payback and on and on. One Phrase sums up the Chiristian religion: Love thy neighbor (black, white, yellow) - clothe the naked - just be a GOOD person. Leave the doors of those chained up churches opened for the homeless? Opps, they might get the pews dirty!!!!! May Pat and George and Rudi all just go away together and have an orgie.

Hey, I didn't defend him, don't even like him but he DOES have influence over a large bloc of voters. doesn't sound like you're one of them. :)