Hmm, something i haven't thought of before...

If yovue read my other post..you will know that im planning to start riding to work soon. In the HIDvLED thread, the last poster mentioned pepper spray.

So to my question. Would you recommend any self defense (pretty much pepper spray) on your commute? I am commuting through the San Fernando Valley, from Granada hills to Canoga Park, if you know where that is.

Thanks for all the help!

nK

Oh, ya, i think it would also be interesting to know whether anyone here has ever needed pepper spray, or the like.

nK

Oh, ya, i think it would also be interesting to know whether anyone here has ever needed pepper spray, or the like.

nK

Pepper spray might be great for dogs out on deserted country roads, but in suburbia? Would it be a deterrent or bait for hostile teenagers or wildlife? I've developed a good sprint for such situations.

If you can't get away, use da mouth, as one of these guys used to tell me. Nobody wants your bike or your money. Show respect and they'll respect you back.

Would you recommend any self defense (pretty much pepper spray) on your commute?

Assuming you're planning on using the pepper spray on dogs, the problem is that by the time you get it out and aim it, you likely could/should have sprinted away from the dog while saying "good doggie" or yelling "BAD DOG!" Come to think of it, the same applies to other "predator" situations :)

Oh, ya, i think it would also be interesting to know whether anyone here has ever needed pepper spray, or the like.

nK

No self defense weapons here -- just some common sense and luck.

I commute from the suburbs of Baltimore to Downtown. Baltimore has the second highest murder rate in the country, second only to Detroit, and similarly high rates in almost every other crime category. Although my commute does not go through the worst neighborhoods of Baltimore, there is a part of my commute that crosses the street that connects Baltimore's eastern and western crime neighborhoods and a short part of the commute skirts an area that has frequent shootings, even during daylight. From October through April, I usually am riding home when it is dark and after rush hour. Knock on wood, I never have had any problems. I don't think that pepper spray or a weapon would do me much good if someone were to try to attack me. Instead, I rely on common sense.

First, if you commute through high crime areas, stay on well traveled streets. Usually, you want to travel on less traveled streets when you are on the bike. For example, in the morning, I take a street into the downtown area that has little traffic and has nothing on it other than warehouses and a public works department truck yard. But, at night, the busineses on the road are closed and no one is on the road, Then, I take one of Baltimore's main streets that parallels this road.

Second, keep moving. I know that the western way of dealing with red lights is different than the eastern urban method and that cyclists have been ticketed in Califormia for going through red lights. But, if you are traveling at night through questionable areas, keep moving. If there is no traffic on cross streets, go through the red light.

Third, do not look at any crime that may be happening along the way. The fastest way to get killed in Baltimore is to be a witness to a crime or drug deal. When I am riding through bad neighborhoods, I keep my eyes on the road and surrounding trafffic. If I see something like a drug deal out of the corner of my eye, I just look the other way. I have not heard gunshots or a stabbing, yet. I would stop and call 911 on my cell if I saw someone being shot or stabbed. But, I also know that I would be taking a risk by doing so.

Fourth, if you think that someone wants to take your bike or rob you, pedal away as fast as you can. When road bike was new, I was riding home from work one evening when a guy who was about 20 and 6 feet tall was riding a bike that was way too small for him -- a sure sign that the bike was stolen. He pulled up along side me at a red light and asked: "How much did you pay for that bike?" I did not answer and he then said: "$2,750.00", which was the sticker price for my bike. I realized in a flash that he wanted my bike., Before he could ask for it, I sprinted faster than I ever have in my life.

Finally, if you can't escape and someone wants your bike or your money, give it to them. Your bike and/or your money is not worth your life.

I've carried pepper spray before. The few times I've needed it I've forgotten I had it. Mainly dogs. There are more than a few strays on my route that seem to relish chasing me. Usually in an awkward spot where it's tough to just hop up and sprint off. They've gotten good at getting in front of me where I'm more worried about them getting tangled in my wheels than anything else.

If it makes you more comfortable, go for it. You'll find out quickly whether your concerns were founded or not.

Oddly enough, I'm a borderline tin-foil hatter and I seldom see the need to have anything with me more dangerous than a good pocket knife. However, I always have a good pocket knife with me... so take that one with a grain of salt.

Gerber makes a pocket knife with a little spring in it so it opens real fast (still legal though), it's nice for "what would McGiver do?" situations, as well as intimidation.

I commute from the suburbs of Baltimore to Downtown. Baltimore has the second highest murder rate in the country, second only to Detroit, and similarly high rates in almost every other crime category. Although my commute does not go through the worst neighborhoods of Baltimore, there is a part of my commute that crosses the street that connects Baltimore's eastern and western crime neighborhoods and a short part of the commute skirts an area that has frequent shootings, even during daylight.

Holy cow. That's insane, I'll be praying for you.

Gerber makes a pocket knife with a little spring in it so it opens real fast (still legal though), it's nice for "what would McGiver do?" situations, as well as intimidation.

I have the Ken Onion Kershaw version of that knife. Actually 3 of them. However, I'd put my EDI Genesis against them any day of the week. While the spring assist knives are handy and I wouldn't feel too bad if I lost them, if I truly wanted the "intimidation" factor I'd be carrying a folder that can back up the threat it's trying to imply. I just don't think those Kershaws do that. Still, when riding I usually do carry them as I wouldn't feel nearly as bad losing them.

If I actually planned on using a knife for self defense I would grab my diving knife, or this bootleg one I got in Tunsia (STANLESS STFEL all the way):

Or the line from Crodile Dundee, "that's not a knife, now that's a knife" (As he pulls that big MFer out of the quill.

But really as far as pepper spray goes, if you decide to do so, get the police sized cannister, make sure it is streaming spray like silly string so that you don't get yourself sprayed in a windy situation. Brigadequartermaster is the company I bought mine from after having a fairly serious confrontation with a nut case in a truck a few years back.

I read an interesting article how so many people move to far outlying suburban areas to escape what they perceive as a high risk of violent crime--- when in fact they expose themselves (and their families) to an even greater risk of being killed or maimed in a serious car accident.

Risk perception is a strange thing. Of course, this says nothing about the demographics/quality of public schools, but we can save that debate for PO.

No self defense weapons here -- just some common sense and luck.

I commute from the suburbs of Baltimore to Downtown. Baltimore has the second highest murder rate in the country, second only to Detroit, and similarly high rates in almost every other crime category. Although my commute does not go through the worst neighborhoods of Baltimore, there is a part of my commute that crosses the street that connects Baltimore's eastern and western crime neighborhoods and a short part of the commute skirts an area that has frequent shootings, even during daylight. From October through April, I usually am riding home when it is dark and after rush hour. Knock on wood, I never have had any problems. I don't think that pepper spray or a weapon would do me much good if someone were to try to attack me. Instead, I rely on common sense.

First, if you commute through high crime areas, stay on well traveled streets. Usually, you want to travel on less traveled streets when you are on the bike. For example, in the morning, I take a street into the downtown area that has little traffic and has nothing on it other than warehouses and a public works department truck yard. But, at night, the busineses on the road are closed and no one is on the road, Then, I take one of Baltimore's main streets that parallels this road.

Second, keep moving. I know that the western way of dealing with red lights is different than the eastern urban method and that cyclists have been ticketed in Califormia for going through red lights. But, if you are traveling at night through questionable areas, keep moving. If there is no traffic on cross streets, go through the red light.

Third, do not look at any crime that may be happening along the way. The fastest way to get killed in Baltimore is to be a witness to a crime or drug deal. When I am riding through bad neighborhoods, I keep my eyes on the road and surrounding trafffic. If I see something like a drug deal out of the corner of my eye, I just look the other way. I have not heard gunshots or a stabbing, yet. I would stop and call 911 on my cell if I saw someone being shot or stabbed. But, I also know that I would be taking a risk by doing so.

Fourth, if you think that someone wants to take your bike or rob you, pedal away as fast as you can. When road bike was new, I was riding home from work one evening when a guy who was about 20 and 6 feet tall was riding a bike that was way too small for him -- a sure sign that the bike was stolen. He pulled up along side me at a red light and asked: "How much did you pay for that bike?" I did not answer and he then said: "$2,750.00", which was the sticker price for my bike. I realized in a flash that he wanted my bike., Before he could ask for it, I sprinted faster than I ever have in my life.

Finally, if you can't escape and someone wants your bike or your money, give it to them. Your bike and/or your money is not worth your life.

Holy cow. That's insane, I'll be praying for you.


Thanks, but it probably is not as bad as it sounds.

If one were to exclude murders between people who know each other, are engaging in drug deals or are gang members, the murder numbers for Baltimore probably would not be too bad. The daylight shootings also are drug or gang related. The truly bad actors in Baltimore also are smart enough to stay away from law abiding citizens minding their own business. I try not to be too complacent. But, I actually feel fairly safe on my commute. Most of my 14.5 mile commute is through neighborhoods with little crime and I stay on well traveled streets in bad areas.

If I actually planned on using a knife for self defense I would grab my diving knife, or this bootleg one I got in Tunsia (STANLESS STFEL all the way):

Sweet.

Who is Stan and why don't they want him around that knife?

I bet the STFEL part is just a worn out stamp.

So does the Croc double as a bottle opener? Looks like the mouth would be just about the right size.

I'm a big fan of the throwdown as well.

I'm thinking the whole problem with weapons on a bicycle is that you are damned if you use them. If you take the time to get out and use your weapon of choice could that time have been better spent getting away? You get off the bike and now you are a sitting target. Plus most likely who ever is confronting you is a lot more familiar with violence than you are.

You on the other hand are a lot more familiar with moving than they are. Don't forget-your bicycle is faster than someone on foot and way more maneuverable than any motor vehicle. Most often the "flight" reaction/instinct makes a lot more sense than the "fight" one.

"He that fights and runs away, may turn and fight another day; but he that is in battle slain, will never rise to fight again." Tacitus

don't forget kids...

when police interact with cyclists we're pretty much always seen in the wrong. We're mucking up their road too. "the cyclist came out of now where" "the cyclist ran the light" etc. etc. So what do you think a cop is going to do when you're found with a weapon? Do you think they are going to assume you're not out picking a fight? Good luck with that.

and for the tough guy 17 year old responses who are ready to 'thow down' think a little first. The most important thing in a fight are your feet. You can't throw a punch or maneuver well without solid footing. How do those cleats on carbon soles hold up for a boxing match?

We're very vulnerable while stationary. Lame footing, and straddling a awkward object.

It's fight or flight. But you've got to pick the right one. If you're packing, you might be committing to the wrong answer before the question is posed.

I have the Ken Onion Kershaw version of that knife. Actually 3 of them. However, I'd put my EDI Genesis against them any day of the week. While the spring assist knives are handy and I wouldn't feel too bad if I lost them, if I truly wanted the "intimidation" factor I'd be carrying a folder that can back up the threat it's trying to imply. I just don't think those Kershaws do that. Still, when riding I usually do carry them as I wouldn't feel nearly as bad losing them.

This is my everyday pocket knife and carry gun... I would have to say that a knife for intimidation purposes is not terribly effective. Most people that would consider robbing you are not going to be all that intimidated my a knife, especially if there are more than one.

I usually ride in groups of 4 or more, so I haven't felt the need to carry either lately. In fact, yesterday our afternoon ride took us through some of Memphis' most unsavory neighborhoods, but with 8 riders in lycra we were more of a spectacle in those areas than the Weinermobile.

However on the odd solo evening ride, I will carry my P3AT unchambered.

don't forget kids...

when police interact with cyclists we're pretty much always seen in the wrong. We're mucking up their road too. "the cyclist came out of now where" "the cyclist ran the light" etc. etc. So what do you think a cop is going to do when you're found with a weapon? Do you think they are going to assume you're not out picking a fight? Good luck with that.

and for the tough guy 17 year old responses who are ready to 'thow down' think a little first. The most important thing in a fight are your feet. You can't throw a punch or maneuver well without solid footing. How do those cleats on carbon soles hold up for a boxing match?

We're very vulnerable while stationary. Lame footing, and straddling a awkward object.

It's fight or flight. But you've got to pick the right one. If you're packing, you might be committing to the wrong answer before the question is posed.

Please don't assume that if someone is "packing" that they are looking for a fight. Most of the people I know that carry are really level headed folks that would MUCH rather avoid trouble than escalate it.

Who really would want to go through the legal and emotional mess of shooting someone anyway? I view it as an absolute last resort option.

Turn the "other" cheek...

Turn the "other" cheek (as in A$$ cheek) and sprint away on your bike. You are quite quick and fairly nimble on your bike. Use it.

A friend of mine who worked as a police officer in metro Detroit advised me that if you are further than ~15 feet away from a weapon pointed at you, your best chance is to run away in an erratic pattern. Anyone who has fired a weapon can relate how hard it is to hit an erratically moving target.

As for dogs... I use my waterbottle to spray water in their face which has been effective in the times I've needed to do it.

Luckily my commute is very safe compared to most here... The deer and bear in the National Park are more afraid of me that I am of them.

singlecross

Lot's of great reasons here NOT to bring something along "just in case." I'll add another: bringing any type of weapon with you on a bike ride could get you into some deep doo doo, either with your attacker, or the cops, or both. Once you pull it out, you are escalating the confrontation dramatically. Someone who has some practice in this might be able to disarm you (you are probably tired, standing astride a bike with bike shoes on) and turn it on you. Second, if the cops get involved and find you have a weapon, you will no longer be "just riding along when this whacko attacked me." The chances you will be viewed as the aggressor in the situation rise dramatically if you have a weapon - especially if the other guy is unarmed and you hurt him. There is a very real possibility that in the course of "defending yourself" you could be charged with a pretty serious crime. For the amount of danger involved in commuting, its just not worth it. I practice the antelope defense: distance is safety.

I tried carrying pepper spray years ago, and quickly discovered several problems.

1- For it to be effective, you have to pretty much keep it in your hand at all times- if you've got to fumble through a jersey pocket to find it, you're SOL. And lemme tell you. riding and holding pepper spay sucks, even with flat bars.

2- shooting pepper spray from a moving bike is a problem in itself. I practiced with it, but it's really inaccurate and very hard to aim from a bike.

3- for me, it really added an extra layer of paranoia to my rides- suddenly, every person I saw became a potential attacker, and I'd find myself mentally figuring out shooting solutions, factoring in wind, etc.

4- pepper spray is banned in many cities.

5- pepper spay will not stop a garbage truck. Or a Taxi. Or a mini-van.

Just remember this old proverb when you're riding through a dangerous area- "when skating on thin ice, your safety lies in your speed."

It is perfectly legal to strap an inoperable automatic weapon to your back. It may not work, but who really wants to find out?:eek6: :yikes: :biggrin5:

I don't really feel it's necessary to have pepper spray, but if you do feel it's necessary to bring it along for the ride, make sure you know how to use it before hand.

A frame pump is also great for some self assurance....and it's practical!!!!

When I was a messenger in DC(and later San Fran), I carried a footlong piece of rebar with me. It was housed in my straight/flat handlebar. I had a slit in the end of my h-bar grip that I could flick down and lean the bike and it would slide out. It was great for denting rude cabbies and fending off the hobos...

A couple of thoughts.
My workdays usually start around 6:30 so my morning commute is usually started at 5 am or earlier. Not many people out at that time unless they are heading to work. Someone heading to work is not a threat to me.

I use a really bright (HID) headlight. I can see far ahead of me so hopefully I can spot a threat and be ready to turn on a burst of speed.

My commuter is geared lower than my road bike. My big ring is a 48 so I am usually in it. I can accelerate to "escape speed" by shifting the rear derailleur. I also ride heavy duty wheels with 28mm or larger tires. I can cut through a parking lot, jump a curb, or go off-road without giving it a second thought. I also use armadillo tires so flats are unlikely.

Heading home in afternoon is in traffic. Too risky for a bad guy. The only times that I ever felt threatened in Hawaii or Norfolk is when I had to work late and would ride home after 7pm.

I usually have an "easy out" folding knife in my bag, but it is not readily accessable and is mostly for utility use. Otherwise I wouldn't really consider carrying any type of weapon. IMHO, being prepared equipment and route wise is the best defense.

Sweet.

Who is Stan and why don't they want him around that knife?

I bet the STFEL part is just a worn out stamp.

So does the Croc double as a bottle opener? Looks like the mouth would be just about the right size.

I'm a big fan of the throwdown as well.

Of a survival knife, the end cap screws off and there are all sorts of useful gadgets like fish hooks and sinkers. It can be used as a saw, the 2 black legs on the sheath fold out and there is rubber surgical hose in the sheath that attaches and makes it into a sling shot. The sheath and knife have a combined 22 functions that apply to survival conditions, also some tool applications.

I sometimes carry pepper spray. The jogger's version has a velcro strap that can be wrapped around the stem or handlebars for easy access.

Thankfully I've never had to use it, and in reality it probably wouldn't be very effective. It's not the "police" version, so it probably doesn't have much range and will end up in my face if the wind is in the wrong direction. Still, it's peace of mind for me should a situation arise where I end up too close to some unsavory character (which despite trying to be aware of the situation can still happen).

I don't think carrying spray makes a cyclist look like an aggressor. If that's the case, what about joggers etc that carry it? It is "less lethal" and doesn't cause permanent damage like a knife/gun/club and (hopefully) would just give me the chance to get the heck out of a situation. Hopefully I'll never find out.

I am commuting through the San Fernando Valley, from Granada hills to Canoga Park, if you know where that is.

chill.

you seriously do not need pepper spray in the W. SFV. Unless you wanna mace a soccer mom for pulling her mini van out in front of you.

I briefly commuted through South Central L.A. Talk about heightened senses. I was aware of anyone who stepped off a curb in my direction. The problem with weapons is you're in their neighborhood. You start something and you may have multiple people to deal with in no time. And you could never take that route again. Ever.

Use the Sprint defense and you'll be ok.

I expect we cyclists are far, far more likely to hit by a car than mugged, and I don't think a gun or knife would be much help in that situation. I carry nothing but my brain and a very highly developed sense of self-preservation.

Everyone has their reasons both for and against carrying protection. Most of the against arguments apply the "what if" scenerio for urban (not code) situations. I don't ride in the city, don't live near a city big enough to worry about it. Any confrontations I have experienced have been in rural areas where I don't care how fast you sprint, the car/truck is going to catch up to you if that is their intent to escalate.

When it comes to weapons and usage, if you are riding your chances are very slim that you can use one while riding. Locating it, aiming/arming, bang you will most likely crash out and hurt yourself. The time and coordination element is all screwed up. not saying with regular drill and practice it can't be done. Even dog attacks happen so fast there is little to no time to do what? SPRINT.

My always course of action is extract yourself from the situation, if that fails, try to get help. If that fails then it is time to arm yourself and make something happen.

I carry pepper spray I bought from a police uniform store and carry an asp baton.
I've used the spray on a dog and the baton is reserved for the unlikley event I have no escape and must come up fighting.

ulock in the back pocket

So to my question. Would you recommend any self defense (pretty much pepper spray) on your commute? I am commuting through the San Fernando Valley, from Granada hills to Canoga Park, ...

A friend's neighbor cut his fishing day-trip short after getting a speeding ticket. He returned home to find a thief tearing the place apart. The young thief then pulled out a fixed blade knife rather than run away out the back door, so the neighbor pulled out his 41-mag pistol and put a round through the kid who died miserably five minutes later. The neighbor was arrested, but later released as the thief had a long violent criminal history as well as an outstanding warrant. However, his pistol was never returned -- a goal of the California authorities.

In California it is not politically correct to defend yourself. You'd be smart to simply plot a route that steers you clear of trouble.

I keep a canister of pepperspray clipped to my backback strap.

I prefer it over say a knife or anything else because it's effective at a farther distance.

I actually carry it more for the stray dogs that cruise the some of my streets on my ride. I often get rolled up on by sometimes up to scraggley looking dogs on my commutes.

I actually was never planning on carrying anything. I was merely curious what everyones thoughts were. I probably wont carry anything. Im 6' 250, and going 30mph on a bike...most ppl dont mess with me too much :)

THanks for the good discussion.

RMS...really sucks to hear. Sometimes i hate this state...

nK

I have the Ken Onion Kershaw version of that knife.
I carry a Ken Onion folding knife when I ride and when I commute. I once had it open on me while riding (no, I was not using the lock) and, fortunately, the only damage it did was that it cut my finger a little as I reached back there for my subway ticket. I no longer just stick it into my jersey pocket when I ride.

I'm thinking the whole problem with weapons on a bicycle is that you are damned if you use them. If you take the time to get out and use your weapon of choice could that time have been better spent getting away? You get off the bike and now you are a sitting target. Plus most likely who ever is confronting you is a lot more familiar with violence than you are.

You on the other hand are a lot more familiar with moving than they are. Don't forget-your bicycle is faster than someone on foot and way more maneuverable than any motor vehicle. Most often the "flight" reaction/instinct makes a lot more sense than the "fight" one.

"He that fights and runs away, may turn and fight another day; but he that is in battle slain, will never rise to fight again." Tacitus
While commuting by bicycle I have had one occasion where I have felt inclined to pull it on someone: I was on a commuter train where my superior riding skills (compared to an attacker who is on foot) was not an advantage at all. I had a punk kid sit behind me and was eyeballing my bike. As he got up to exit the train at his stop he made a comment like, "I want that bike." Fortunately for me (or him), he said it to an older gentleman who he was riding the train with. By this time I had transferred the knife to the bottom of my jersey with my hand over it and I was pulling on it to unclip it from the jersey as he said those words. When I realized he was talking to his companion I relaxed some tension from my hand until the doors closed, when I returned my knife to its original place, hanging from my jersey pocket.

My pocket knife is a form of security blanket for me. I am reassured that, in a tough situation, I may have to use it on someone but only as a last resort. How does that saying go? It's better to need and to have than to need and to not have?

Of a survival knife, the end cap screws off and there are all sorts of useful gadgets like fish hooks and sinkers. It can be used as a saw, the 2 black legs on the sheath fold out and there is rubber surgical hose in the sheath that attaches and makes it into a sling shot. The sheath and knife have a combined 22 functions that apply to survival conditions, also some tool applications.

Thanks, I had no idea when I bought it, and the Tunisian kids that sold it to me probably didn't know either. Now I got to go get me a real, 22 function one, any idea what they were called?

I am the "last poster" who mentioned pepper spray in the OP's other thread. I carry pepper spray. I'll address some misconceptions and assertions posters have made.

1)Pepper spray is only useful if you keep it in your hand at all times. No. Most personal sized pepper sprays have integral clips---and you can easily clip to a jersey pocket or even the front of your jersey. I use a bike mount.

http://www.defensedevices.com/bike-mount-bicyle-pepper-spray.html

I can unsnap it and have it ready to use in a second or two. Not difficult.

2) Shooting pepper spray from a moving bike is difficult. OF COURSE IT IS, and you're not supposed to use it that way. Pepper spray is a "non lethal deterrent weapon". It's supposed to be used instead of deadly force----but it should only be used in the same circumstances as deadly force. In other words, you don't get to spray people in moving cars just because they said something mean to you. No, you spray them if they get out of their car and corner you with the intent to cause harm.

3) Pepper spray will not stop a minivan or a car. Well, of course not. That's not what it's for. Pepper spray is an anti-personnel non lethal weapon. Anyone who carries any sort of weapon and is constantly looking for a way to use it probably shouldn't be carrying one.You only use it if someone is meaning to do you physical harm.

4) Some posters are carrying knives. Unless you train in proper use of a knife, brandishing one will likely get you hurt. Knives and impact weapons require a very close distance between good guy and bad guy in order to be effective---and bad guys usually have more experience in those matters. Pepper spray or a TASER(not a stun gun) allow you to keep a zone of safety between yourself and the attacker.

I am a military veteran, lifelong handgun shooter, concealed carry permit holder, and know my way around a handgun. I carry one lots of times. I even carry on the bike sometimes, but that is difficult. Finding an "on the body" carry solution while wearing bike clothing is difficult. That's why I carry the spray. Don't let ANYONE tell you that pepper spray doesn't work. It works. I grew up in a law enforcement household, and my dad has stories of pepper spray bringing HUGE drunks to their knees. It works. If nothing else, it will allow you to put distance between yourself and an attacker. As for the legality in certain jurisdictions? Who really cares? If you are alone on your bike and end up pepper spraying some guy---- you get the HELL out of there and change your route for a week or two.

We are all responsible for our own safety, and until you've come close to a violent confrontation with a nutcase it's easy to say that carrying a non lethal form of defense is not a good idea. I'm NOT going to throw hands with some psycho who has a beef with bicycles. No. I'm going to show him my spray when he gets out of the car. I'm going to tell him I'll spray--and if he continues, I'm lighting him up and leaving with a clear conscience.

If your gonna carry a huge Rambo knife you already know what you really need. Some rope.
"Charlie Bronson's always got rope....He's got a lot of rope strapped around him in the movies, and they always end up using it."..."You don't know what you're gonna need it for. They just always need it." (read in Irish accent)

Lot's of great reasons here NOT to bring something along "just in case." I'll add another: bringing any type of weapon with you on a bike ride could get you into some deep doo doo, either with your attacker, or the cops, or both. Once you pull it out, you are escalating the confrontation dramatically. Someone who has some practice in this might be able to disarm you (you are probably tired, standing astride a bike with bike shoes on) and turn it on you. Second, if the cops get involved and find you have a weapon, you will no longer be "just riding along when this whacko attacked me." The chances you will be viewed as the aggressor in the situation rise dramatically if you have a weapon - especially if the other guy is unarmed and you hurt him. There is a very real possibility that in the course of "defending yourself" you could be charged with a pretty serious crime. For the amount of danger involved in commuting, its just not worth it. I practice the antelope defense: distance is safety.


In my previous thread HID vs. LED, I commute at night and I've seen some possible dangers just in front of me. although I can't avoid them all. In a stressfull situation, there will be a time when you have to revert to what you know. May it be from fighting or taking flight or you can use both. from my experience as a public servant:
- observe your surroundings and look for venues to escape or to take self defense.
- give yourself distance and time. and yell for help to alarm other people in the area to call the cops.
- If you brought anything with you like a pepper spray, an extra chain with a sprocket on the end, or your bike to give you distance and as an obstacle for that person.
- If you have your HID or LED light on your helmet, shine on it on him, that should give you enough time to blind him so you can escape or pepper spray him.
- I'm sure there are alot of scenarios that can happen and each has to be re-evaluated to prevent or to react in those situations.
- If you commute the same route, change it up once in a while. Who knows someone might be watching when, where, and what time you commute.
- But the worst enemy out there is a distracted driver coming at you at 40 to 60 mph.
-That's all I can think of at this time... to be continued..
- Be safe out there and have your safety lights and vest...
- from my last thread HID vs. LED- "Btw, I also carry my pepper spray. I have it readily available by my off duty weapon. hehe, I hope I don't have to resort to spraying or shooting anyone, but its nice to keep it by my side." Practice your self defense and your weapons...
__________________

I read an interesting article how so many people move to far outlying suburban areas to escape what they perceive as a high risk of violent crime--- when in fact they expose themselves (and their families) to an even greater risk of being killed or maimed in a serious car accident.

Risk perception is a strange thing. Of course, this says nothing about the demographics/quality of public schools, but we can save that debate for PO.

That's entirely possible, and the risk of actually being shot riding your bike in Baltimore might not be all that high, but we are talking about a city with substantial economic and social problems, including crime, which really can impact a cyclist or anybody else, and some truly lousy roads and interesting driving habits -- I know some folks here ride there, but it seems to me that downtown is just not cycling friendly. For a couple of years, I had to commute to downtown balmer from the DC area a few times a week and, while I was bummed to be off my bike so much, I just didn't see any appealing way to do the bike commuting thing down there. The town has its charms, really, and many good folks and all, but apart from the fact that the winter is milder than up north, it's hard to think of an east coast city with less appealing bike commuting in and around its downtown area.

I am the "last poster" who mentioned pepper spray in the OP's other thread. I carry pepper spray. I'll address some misconceptions and assertions posters have made.

1)Pepper spray is only useful if you keep it in your hand at all times. No. Most personal sized pepper sprays have integral clips---and you can easily clip to a jersey pocket or even the front of your jersey. I use a bike mount.

http://www.defensedevices.com/bike-mount-bicyle-pepper-spray.html

I can unsnap it and have it ready to use in a second or two. Not difficult.

2) Shooting pepper spray from a moving bike is difficult. OF COURSE IT IS, and you're not supposed to use it that way. Pepper spray is a "non lethal deterrent weapon". It's supposed to be used instead of deadly force----but it should only be used in the same circumstances as deadly force. In other words, you don't get to spray people in moving cars just because they said something mean to you. No, you spray them if they get out of their car and corner you with the intent to cause harm.

3) Pepper spray will not stop a minivan or a car. Well, of course not. That's not what it's for. Pepper spray is an anti-personnel non lethal weapon. Anyone who carries any sort of weapon and is constantly looking for a way to use it probably shouldn't be carrying one.You only use it if someone is meaning to do you physical harm.

4) Some posters are carrying knives. Unless you train in proper use of a knife, brandishing one will likely get you hurt. Knives and impact weapons require a very close distance between good guy and bad guy in order to be effective---and bad guys usually have more experience in those matters. Pepper spray or a TASER(not a stun gun) allow you to keep a zone of safety between yourself and the attacker.

I am a military veteran, lifelong handgun shooter, concealed carry permit holder, and know my way around a handgun. I carry one lots of times. I even carry on the bike sometimes, but that is difficult. Finding an "on the body" carry solution while wearing bike clothing is difficult. That's why I carry the spray. Don't let ANYONE tell you that pepper spray doesn't work. It works. I grew up in a law enforcement household, and my dad has stories of pepper spray bringing HUGE drunks to their knees. It works. If nothing else, it will allow you to put distance between yourself and an attacker. As for the legality in certain jurisdictions? Who really cares? If you are alone on your bike and end up pepper spraying some guy---- you get the HELL out of there and change your route for a week or two.

We are all responsible for our own safety, and until you've come close to a violent confrontation with a nutcase it's easy to say that carrying a non lethal form of defense is not a good idea. I'm NOT going to throw hands with some psycho who has a beef with bicycles. No. I'm going to show him my spray when he gets out of the car. I'm going to tell him I'll spray--and if he continues, I'm lighting him up and leaving with a clear conscience.

nmnmnm

If your gonna carry a huge Rambo knife you already know what you really need. Some rope.
"Charlie Bronson's always got rope....He's got a lot of rope strapped around him in the movies, and they always end up using it."..."You don't know what you're gonna need it for. They just always need it." (read in Irish accent)

Into the wilds of Canada on canoe trips. No I don't carry rambo on the bike or the Glock, just streaming pepper spray.

What dfleck, skulls, and MB1 said. You're just a lot better off not going there, as far as weapons go. If you're having to ride thru a war zone, best to do what you're already doing. Stay in more heavily trafficed areas, staying well out from alleys and stuff, and keep moving. Armadillos or other heavily armoured tires are your best defence, as you don't want a flat in those areas.

Have you seen Boondock Saints? I wasn't talking about your "rambo" knife, just in general. You will always need rope. (and whats that croc survival knife called?)

As for dogs... I use my waterbottle to spray water in their face which has been effective in the times I've needed to do it.That's a great idea, thanks! Although it seems that all of the times I've had dog encounters they jump out of nowhere from the side and I don't have time to do much of anything but stand on the pedals. I'll remember the water bottle trick though :thumbsup:

I question whether pepper spray is actually effective on aggressive dogs. A friend of mine is an animal control deputy for the local sheriff's dept. and he believes that pepper spray is not effective. He claims that because dogs don't have the same hyper-active tear and mucus glands as humans, pepper spray is not as debilitating to them. The dept's ROE is to just shoot attacking dogs with their sidearms.

A helmet mount HID would do you a lot better than a weapon, blind people make terrible robbers, marksmen, fighters...etc...

Well, it's 7:00 p.m. and I am getting ready to leave the office for the commute home with nothing more than my wits and an HID light to defend me. Wish me luck.

Wish me luck.Good luck and take care, you never know when the boogie man might jump out of a dark corner to steal your bike and eat your liver.

BTW this thread has inspired me. I'm going to mount a crossbow pistol on my bars and keep some throwing stars handy in a feed bag. You know, just in case.

Well, it's 7:00 p.m. and I am getting ready to leave the office for the commute home with nothing more than my wits and an HID light to defend me. Wish me luck.


Me too, except it's 7:30p.m. and I don't have an HID light, only Halogen and a headlamp. Oh, and a shot of Powers in me to keep me warm. It's raining and 36 degrees... I'll take the long way home out on the dirt carraige roads.

singlecross

Good luck and take care, you never know when the boogie man might jump out of a dark corner to steal your bike and eat your liver.

BTW this thread has inspired me. I'm going to mount a crossbow pistol on my bars and keep some throwing stars handy in a feed bag. You know, just in case.

There's one in every crowd, isn't there? I've been cornered by an enraged motorist. I had to talk my way out of having to fight a crazy redneck who took offense at me yelling at him when he almost hit me. There IS a possibility of some road raging nutcase coming after you on your bike. Pepper spray weighs nothing, is non lethal, and effective. This isn't about the "boogie man" or having your liver eaten. It's about common sense and operating with one's eyes open.

Rob,

Love the P3AT. I have one too. Very easy to drop in any pocket and forget it's there. However, I haven't carried in a while as I haven't renewed my CHL. I know, I'm a slacker.

Much easier to carry than the Kimber Custom.

http://tinyurl.com/2p67q3

Also, as far as the 15 feet thing is concerned. I was taught that most people can cover 15 feet in the time it takes you to react. I have no reason to doubt that. when I was still working on the street I ran a call where a 300+ lb woman crossed a room in less than a second to stab her husband with a butcher knife. Said he never saw it coming.

That said, if I'm moving I'm going to keep moving. Has worked out great for me so far. If you don't realize that person is a threat beforehand, well... you're on your own. Again, I prefer not to spend enough time with them where it's an issue.

Fortunately, the bad part of my commute is through a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. The gang members I see don't really bother me, as they see people on bikes all the time. Generally associated with someone who can't afford a car so not worth messing with. They'll hurl out a few obscenities every now and then, but have never really bothered me. Plus, they see me on a regular basis so I kinda "belong" in that neighborhood.

I will always carry a folder with me, not so much for any conceived defensive purposes. It's just what I do. I've done it since I got my first pocketknife at the age of 8. I carry one everywhere. They are incredibly handy tools. My Dad taught me that a man with a good pocket knife and a little common sense can survive just about anything life throws at you.

I believe him.

A friend of mine used to carry a knife with him for protection for late night commutes (chicago, late 80s), until he hit a pothole or something, went off the bike and stuck himself with it. A bunch of stitches later he changed his mind about the knife.

A friend of mine used to carry a knife with him for protection for late night commutes (chicago, late 80s), until he hit a pothole or something, went off the bike and stuck himself with it. A bunch of stitches later he changed his mind about the knife.I always have a clip-on knife in my pocket, though for utility not defense. While the knife frequently comes in handy off the bike, it did bruise my hip badly when I crashed my bicycle on some wet leaves last year and landed with all my body weight square on the knife.

There IS a possibility of some road raging nutcase coming after you on your bike.Oh, I'm well aware of that. And if you feel it's necessary to carry pepper spray or even a gun that's fine with me. I just think it's sad that many people live with so much fear.

Before you decide to carry any sort of weapon I hope you will do some soul searching and honestly evaluate whether or not you are the type of person to get angered easily. In the last couple of years I have twice grappled with teenage punks. One kid randomly threw a garbage can at my car parked in my driveway, and one I chased down after he'd just stolen my son's bicycle. While I don't feel particularly bad about bruising a bike thief, I am afraid that if I had a weapon of some type in those situations I might be tempted to use it. What a shame it would be to shoot or stab someone over a bicycle.

And of course, we must always realize that there are road raging nutcases in the world. So one cuts you off... your first instinct is to yell at him, but what does that accomplish? It's more likely to get you into deeper trouble than to actually teach the offender anything.

Oh, I'm well aware of that. And if you feel it's necessary to carry pepper spray or even a gun that's fine with me. I just think it's sad that many people live with so much fear.

Before you decide to carry any sort of weapon I hope you will do some soul searching and honestly evaluate whether or not you are the type of person to get angered easily. In the last couple of years I have twice grappled with teenage punks. One kid randomly threw a garbage can at my car parked in my driveway, and one I chased down after he'd just stolen my son's bicycle. While I don't feel particularly bad about bruising a bike thief, I am afraid that if I had a weapon of some type in those situations I might be tempted to use it. What a shame it would be to shoot or stab someone over a bicycle.

And of course, we must always realize that there are road raging nutcases in the world. So one cuts you off... your first instinct is to yell at him, but what does that accomplish? It's more likely to get you into deeper trouble than to actually teach the offender anything.


It's not "sad". I don't "live with fear". That's a backhanded insult and a belittling of my real world experience. I have been cornered. I have come close to blows with a psycho who almost hit me as he careened around a corner. Would YOU reflexively yell at someone who came two feet from you at a high rate of speed as you sat at a stop sign? Most people would let out a "HEY!" or a "Watch out!". The driver who confronted me is lucky I wasn't carrying---because I live in Florida and our laws are pretty lenient about shooting people in self defense. Lone bicyclist cornered by aggressive motorist? Get out of jail free card. But I wasn't carrying, and carrying is a pain on a bike. Pepper spray is a logical choice. Would you say some jogger who carries pepper spray on his/her runs is "living in fear"? As a cyclist on the road we're just as vulnerable as a jogger.

That's a great idea, thanks! Although it seems that all of the times I've had dog encounters they jump out of nowhere from the side and I don't have time to do much of anything but stand on the pedals. I'll remember the water bottle trick though :thumbsup:

I question whether pepper spray is actually effective on aggressive dogs. A friend of mine is an animal control deputy for the local sheriff's dept. and he believes that pepper spray is not effective. He claims that because dogs don't have the same hyper-active tear and mucus glands as humans, pepper spray is not as debilitating to them. The dept's ROE is to just shoot attacking dogs with their sidearms.

Dogs' eyes are just as sensitive to having hot pepper sprayed in them as humans are, and their sense of smell is far more acute. So yes, pepper spray works on dogs. That's why the postal service issues it. Pepper spray works on grizzly bears, for cryin' out loud. Your friend is incorrect.

It's not "sad". I don't "live with fear". That's a backhanded insult and a belittling of my real world experience.I apologize, I definitely wasn't trying to be insulting. My "sad" comment was directed at the general culture of fear that we seem cursed to live with in much of the world. I don't mean to belittle your experiences, but please consider that you aren't the only person who has had them.

FWIW I agree with you. If you feel that you must carry some sort of weapon, pepper spray is a good choice. Just be sure to carry it in such a way that the cannister will not injure you in a crash.

Regarding my friend's comments, I think he was speaking more to highly aggressive animals (rottweilers, german shepherds, etc.) that police officers often find guarding drug houses. These animals are trained for aggressiveness and will likely fight through the discomfort of pepper spray in the eyes. To a human it's much more debilitating because of the heavy tears and mucus that instantly develop in reaction. Anyone who has been exposed to pepper spray, mace, or tear gas understands what I'm talking about. It renders you blind and unable to breath well.