I am curious as to what folks here would define as faith?

Not that it matters, but I have no idea.

We need context, ttug. The dictionary gives several definitions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

I am curious as to what folks here would define as faith?

Not that it matters, but I have no idea.

Believing in something despite any real evidence to do so.

Faith is belief without evidence.

Faith could also be belief with some, but not a lot of evidence. It seems like a lot of religious types have some bases for their beleif in god but make the "leap of faith" to get the rest of the way. It's a denominator problem, I suppose.

Faith could also be belief with some, but not a lot of evidence. It seems like a lot of religious types have some bases for their beleif in god but make the "leap of faith" to get the rest of the way. It's a denominator problem, I suppose.

Well I have faith my wife will come home from work today. She's come home all the other times so I'm pretty sure it will be the same today. Is there a possibility she won't come home? Sure...but I'm willing to take the jump to assume she will.

We need context, ttug. The dictionary gives several definitions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

This is an ineresting point, does faith require a context?

I am asking this because, if faith is taken at its literal core, is a context required, or is it a state of existence?

Faith is belief without evidence.

Paul had 'evidence' on the road to Damascus...a vision of Jesus Christ...an epiphany.

Paul had 'evidence' on the road to Damascus...an vision of Jesus Christ...an epiphany.

Or maybe he just ate the wrong kind of mushroom for lunch?

I was thinking the same thing but then I thought is that really faith that my wife will come home or trust that my wife will come home. I have faith that she loves me but I trust she will always come home to me. Dang it now I am thinking again and I am never good at that.

Paul had 'evidence' on the road to Damascus...a vision of Jesus Christ...an epiphany.

Why was Paul on that road?

Besides the literal reason etc etc ...What drove his actions? How did he use this?

In other words, while the vision was an epiphany to Paul, did this require, or demonstrate his faith?

IMO, no.

I was thinking the same thing but then I thought is that really faith that my wife will come home or trust that my wife will come home. I have faith that she loves me but I trust she will always come home to me. Dang it now I am thinking again and I am never good at that.
What's the difference? A religious person might say, "I have faith that jesus is real" or also "I trust that jesus is real." Same diff.

Why was Paul on that road?


He was headed to the crossroads so he could become a great bluesman?

He was headed to the crossroads so he could become a great bluesman?

Robert Johnson did present a very real image in his song. However, was Paul on the road literally to affirm his faith? Hey who knows? OR, he had faith and was driven by the fulfillment of other questions. Was this real etc etc?

Why was Paul on that road?

Besides the literal reason etc etc ...What drove his actions? How did he use this?

In other words, while the vision was an epiphany to Paul, did this require, or demonstrate his faith?

IMO, no.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

He had a vision, he saw 'evidence', that was my point.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

He had a vision, he saw 'evidence', that was my point.

I can drop a tab of acid and see things that would rock your world, but not sure I want to base my entire life on it.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

He had a vision, he saw 'evidence', that was my point.

I was not clear in my question. We have this guy, named Paul, on the road...strolling along........BAM....a vision of the Lord appears to him....OK, now the weird part, did the vision affirm his faith in general......(God, Christ etc etc ) OR because he had faith, he was able to see, hey, why thats the Lord and hey, why is he saying this to me?
If Paul had no faith etc etc, would he have even had the vision? If so.....why was he even on the road?

I can drop a tab of acid and see things that would rock your world, but not sure I want to base my entire life on it.

Unless its the brown tab variety......nasty nasty nasty

Faith is a choice.

Len

If Paul had no faith etc etc, would he have even had the vision? If so.....why was he even on the road?

He was a Hebrew and a persecutor of Christians...but that is not the point.

Faith is a choice.

Len

No I reject that.

Faith chooses you. It is not this season's fashion favorite after all?...

No I reject that.

Faith chooses you. It is not this season's fashion favorite after all?...

How so?

He was a Hebrew and a persecutor of Christians...but that is not the point.

Actually, your example is one of the more compelling.

Paul also was a key figure in spreading the idea of Christianity to gentiles....Other have argued hey is a central figure. HOWEVER, there he was just strolling along.......swell guy, nice day, etc etc

A tad strange?

No I reject that.

Faith chooses you. It is not this season's fashion favorite after all?...

So, your reply supposes a definition of faith, spill it.

Actually, your example is one of the more compelling.

Paul also was a key figure in spreading the idea of Christianity to gentiles....Other have argued hey is a central figure. HOWEVER, there he was just strolling along.......swell guy, nice day, etc etc

A tad strange?
Well they coulda just made up the story. Anyone actually prove he even existed or persecuted Christians without using the Bible as a reference? Not saying that persecution didn't happen, but maybe he was just a composite of many people who went from adversaries to champions of Christianity upon being converted? Another parable maybe?

How so?

I will turn that around and ask you to demonstrate how one can choose, quite arbitrarily, which ever faith/belief one chooses.

Can you, right now, choose to believe you can fly...demonstrate your new 'faith' by jumping off a tall building, if you would be so kind?

Point proved.

Faith is not a cloak to be worn...to do so is inauthentic...a fraud. One must believe to one's core with certitude.

Well they coulda just made up the story. Anyone actually prove he even existed or persecuted Christians without using the Bible as a reference? Not saying that persecution didn't happen, but maybe he was just a composite of many people who went from adversaries to champions of Christianity upon being converted? Another parable maybe?

Maybe he was an alien?

Maybe he was Elvis sent back in time, using Lord Lucan's secret time machine?

Who cares about the historical truth, the bible is not about that.

I will turn that around and ask you to demonstrate how one can choose, quite arbitrarily, which ever faith/belief one chooses.

Can you, right now, choose to believe you can fly...demonstrate your new 'faith' by jumping off a tall building, if you would be so kind?

Point proved.

Faith is not a cloak to be worn...to do so is inauthentic...a fraud. One must believe to one's core with certitude.
On the same note...why don't Christians kill themselves if they know they are going to a better place when they die? I know it's a sin to do so, but there are ways of accelerating the time before you come to Jesus. Start smoking, drinking, eating bad food, playing in busy highways. After all...you're going to heaven when you die.

To me, faith is like saying, "that house on the hill is yellow" instead of saying "the side of the house on the hill that I can see is yellow."

You have evidence (the side you can see) that the house is yellow, and you have history (rarely are houses painted more than one color), but without being able to observe the whole house, you have no proof that the house is all yellow. To me, that's faith in a nutshell.

Are y'all confusing "faith" with "belief?"





And yes, I stole my example from "stranger in a strange land"

I will turn that around and ask you to demonstrate how one can choose, quite arbitrarily, which ever faith/belief one chooses.

Can you, right now, choose to believe you can fly...demonstrate your new 'faith' by jumping off a tall building, if you would be so kind?

Point proved.

Faith is not a cloak to be worn...to do so is inauthentic...a fraud. One must believe to one's core with certitude.

Point proved...that's a good one.

How can faith be anything but a choice since it is belief without proof? One must choose to make that"leap". It's part of your free will.......if not a choice, then what is it worth?

Are you suggesting that there is no choice in a faith in Christ (or any God)...that Christ (or any God) somehow forces you to believe? That is patently absurd.

Len

Are you suggesting that there is no choice in a faith in Christ (or any God)...that Christ (or any God) somehow forces you to believe? That is patently absurd.

It's also a deterministic argument and really seems to undermine free will.

Maybe he was an alien?

Maybe he was Elvis sent back in time, using Lord Lucan's secret time machine?

Who cares about the historical truth, the bible is not about that.

What is it about then?

<img src=http://passtheammo.com/hick/files/pta/jesus_sitting_nra.jpg>

I will turn that around and ask you to demonstrate how one can choose, quite arbitrarily, which ever faith/belief one chooses.

Can you, right now, choose to believe you can fly...demonstrate your new 'faith' by jumping off a tall building, if you would be so kind?

Point proved.

Faith is not a cloak to be worn...to do so is inauthentic...a fraud. One must believe to one's core with certitude.

I'd argue that people choose faith all the time, and do not always believe to their core. Most people have doubts. Heck, even Jesus had doubts.

People do pick up faiths for all the wrong reasons- fashion, self-doubt, bored or just wanting to try something new. But sometimes a thing started for all the wrong reasons ends up taking hold and turning into true faith.

No I reject that.

Faith chooses you. It is not this season's fashion favorite after all?...


Nope. There first has to be an idea to have faith in. Then after being confronted with the idea you use faith to accept it. Otherwise you would be born with faith and would need no teaching or exposure to the idea to believe in it.

Point proved...that's a good one.

How can faith be anything but a choice since it is belief without proof? One must choose to make that"leap". It's part of your free will.......if not a choice, then what is it worth?

Are you suggesting that there is no choice in a faith in Christ (or any God)...that Christ (or any God) somehow forces you to believe? That is patently absurd.

Len

Paul no more 'chose' to have faith in Christ, than one can choose one's sexuality.

That is the value and worth in 'faith', it goes beyond triviality and veneer, and resonates a truth inside the very core of a person.

/resisting the urge to start talking about psychoanalysis and the subconscious.

Paul no more 'chose' to have faith in Christ, than one can choose one's sexuality.

That is the value and worth in 'faith', it goes beyond triviality and veneer, and resonates a truth inside the very core of a person.

/resisting the urge to start talking about psychoanalysis and the subconscious.

If Paul had no choice in his faith......than his message of redemption isn't worth much.

It sounds impoised....what happened to Free Will?

Len

That is the value and worth in 'faith', it goes beyond triviality and veneer, and resonates a truth inside the very core of a person.
You're really painting the world and all ideas therein in very black and white terms to an absurd extent.

One can have struggle to have faith in an idea or belief. Far from the "triviality and veneer," this is the very essence of faith and attempting to understand and accept concepts that go beyond the limits of rationality. Rationality will always fight back and it's preposteous to contend that someone lacks faith if one reconsiders or has any internal psycological struggles. One can also works one's way to come to such faith and eventually have whatever truth there is resonate within that person.

Faith was the name of a chick I boned back in Jr. High. She was really well endowed for her age.


I haven't had any Faith since 1983.

Faith was the name of a chick I boned back in Jr. High. She was really well endowed for her age.


I haven't had any Faith since 1983.
HALLELUYA!

I was thinking the same thing but then I thought is that really faith that my wife will come home or trust that my wife will come home. I have faith that she loves me but I trust she will always come home to me. Dang it now I am thinking again and I am never good at that.

You have something to base it on, she's come home before so maybe that would be trust. She said she loves you to the exclusion of other men, do you have proof or do you just have faith in her?

If Paul had no choice in his faith......than his message of redemption isn't worth much.

Len

Now you are shifting the debate into a different area...that of Christian doctrine.

But I will just say that, why should faith have an eternal or external reward? Why cannot it be its own reward?

Thanks Snake. I guess that's what I was trying to say. Again, thinking isn't my strong suit.
Smoke starts billowing outa my ears and then it sounds like 1979 ford with a loose fan belt in my brain.

One can have struggle to have faith in an idea or belief. Far from the "triviality and veneer," this is the very essence of faith and attempting to understand and accept concepts that go beyond the limits of rationality. Rationality will always fight back and it's preposteous to contend that someone lacks faith if one reconsiders or has any internal psycological struggles. One can also works one's way to come to such faith and eventually have whatever truth there is resonate within that person.

No you are describing someone who is conflicted regarding faith...that in no way means that faith is a conscious choice, since not all conflict resides in the consciousness...in fact quite the opposite.

No you are describing someone who is conflicted regarding faith...that in no way means that faith is a conscious choice, since not all conflict resides in the consciousness...in fact quite the opposite.
I understand your argument, but your definition is simply too severe to have any applicability in the experience of humankind, in my opinion. I guess we disagree.

She said she loves you to the exclusion of other men, do you have proof or do you just have faith in her?


I keep mine chained up in the basement. It's the only way to be safe.

I keep mine chained up in the basement. It's the only way to be safe.

I guess you have faith in the chain and her inability to pick the lock. :)

I am curious as to what folks here would define as faith?

Not that it matters, but I have no idea.

Confident assurance concerning what we hope for, and conviction about things we do not see.

St. Paul's letter to the Hebrews, Chapter 11, verse 1 NRSV. The whole chapter is about faith, but that one I carry around with me.

Now you are shifting the debate into a different area...that of Christian doctrine.

But I will just say that, why should faith have an eternal or external reward? Why cannot it be its own reward?

I'm not changing it at all....you are the one who brought up Paul.

My point isn't about reward or no reward...it's simply that if faith is anything other than a choice (Read not of one's own free will) than it is meaningless.

You seem to be implying that one has no choice to believe or not, that one has no choice as to the faith he lives his life by...that to me is absurd.

Len

To me, faith is like saying, "that house on the hill is yellow" instead of saying "the side of the house on the hill that I can see is yellow."

You have evidence (the side you can see) that the house is yellow, and you have history (rarely are houses painted more than one color), but without being able to observe the whole house, you have no proof that the house is all yellow. To me, that's faith in a nutshell.

Are y'all confusing "faith" with "belief?"





And yes, I stole my example from "stranger in a strange land"

So far, when there is a definition to demonstrate faith, folks have referred to the Bible. Good examples, certainly. However, immediately, there is a need to doubt the veracity of the Bible. Thats OK. However, we are not debating the Bible.

I asked, what is faith. I did not ask, hey is the Bible valid.

Interesting however, IMO, faith and belief can be seperate,

Confident assurance concerning what we hope for, and conviction about things we do not see.

St. Paul's letter to the Hebrews, Chapter 11, verse 1 NRSV. The whole chapter is about faith, but that one I carry around with me.

Sounds like a choice to me.

Len

I'm not changing it at all....you are the one who brought up Paul.

My point isn't about reward or no reward...it's simply that if faith is anything other than a choice (Read not of one's own free will) than it is meaningless.

You seem to be implying that one has no choice to believe or not, that one has no choice as to the faith he lives his life by...that to me is absurd.

Len

Your opinion is absurd.

'Free will' allows us to reason and make choices based upon our beliefs...not the other way around. I cannot choose what I find funny, or sad, or inspiring. I cannot choose who I fall in love with, or who I am sexually attracted to. I cannot choose faith. It would have no meaning greater than ourself if I could after all?

Your opinion is absurd.

'Free will' allows us to reason and make choices based upon our beliefs...not the other way around. I cannot choose what I find funny, or sad, or inspiring. I cannot choose who I fall in love with, or who I am sexually attracted to. I cannot choose faith. It would have no meaning greater than ourself if I could after all?

So following your logic.......since I have no free will to choose my beliefs....and faith is a belief, then I or you have no choice as to what I believe.......Do I have it correct?

If I have this correct than please explain conversion to me......since the only way I can see it happening is by choosing to believe.

As to your......"I have no choice who I fall in love with" statement...I'll just let taht stand on it's own flimsy foundation.

I think it is the very choice that gives it meaning......the giving up of yourself to believe in what is u nprovable that is the power of it. To have no choice to believe, makes it no more than similar to my eye color.

Len

Sounds like a choice to me.

Len

Len-

When you say choice, do you mean that a person makes a decision as having or not having actions or behaviors that are satisfied by a concept of faith?

No, I think that would be trust in the chain and faith in her inability to pick the lock.:D

Len-

When you say choice, do you mean that a person makes a decision as having or not having actions or behaviors that are satisfied by a concept of faith?

No...I mean that at some point, a person must choose to either believe in the face of little or no evidence or not believe. It's an X or an O.

I believe in God or I don't.........
I believe in life after death or I don't.......

The actions then flow out of that choice....but at some point, an individual makes that choice. It is the ultimate manifestation of free will. The alternative is that faith is imposed from the outside and the individual has no Choice.

Clear?

len

Paul no more 'chose' to have faith in Christ, than one can choose one's sexuality.

That is the value and worth in 'faith', it goes beyond triviality and veneer, and resonates a truth inside the very core of a person.

/resisting the urge to start talking about psychoanalysis and the subconscious.

Paul was chosen, he did not choose.

No...I mean that at some point, a person must choose to either believe in the face of little or no evidence or not believe. It's an X or an O.

I believe in God or I don't.........
I believe in life after death or I don't.......

The actions then flow out of that choice....but at some point, an individual makes that choice. It is the ultimate manifestation of free will. The alternative is that faith is imposed from the outside and the individual has no Choice.

Clear?

len

Yes, very clear. Thanks!

No...I mean that at some point, a person must choose to either believe in the face of little or no evidence or not believe. It's an X or an O.

I believe in God or I don't.........
I believe in life after death or I don't.......

The actions then flow out of that choice....but at some point, an individual makes that choice. It is the ultimate manifestation of free will. The alternative is that faith is imposed from the outside and the individual has no Choice.

Clear?

len

With a choice comes possibility. With a decision comes commitment.

With a choice comes possibility. With a decision comes commitment.

Exactly!

Len

Exactly!

Len

I can't claim that as an original thought--I either read or heard it somewhere, but forget the source--it's a common concept in self-help circles.

With a choice comes possibility. With a decision comes commitment.

I have always called this hope.

Very well said

+1

I will turn that around and ask you to demonstrate how one can choose, quite arbitrarily, which ever faith/belief one chooses.

Can you, right now, choose to believe you can fly...demonstrate your new 'faith' by jumping off a tall building, if you would be so kind?

Point proved.

Faith is not a cloak to be worn...to do so is inauthentic...a fraud. One must believe to one's core with certitude.

Please do not misunderstad what I am asking here.

Why does one feel a need to demonstrate their faith? This is a total contradiction.

My understanding thus far has been that if I feel a need to show you, I do not have it.

I'm not sure faith applies to your wife coming home. She has established a reasonably predictable pattern of behavior. You can now rely on this pattern instead of believing she will come home while lacking any evidence that it will happen. Sort of like how faith has nothing to do with the sun coming up every morning. It just happens.

Your wife loving you is something that is very hard to prove empirically, so that is definitely faith. At the very least, you and she may have different definitions and expectations of what exactly love is. There are lots of tokens and actions that could be construed as evidence of love, but these are not necessarily reliable indicators of what truly exists only in the mind.

So far, when there is a definition to demonstrate faith, folks have referred to the Bible. Good examples, certainly. However, immediately, there is a need to doubt the veracity of the Bible. Thats OK. However, we are not debating the Bible.

I asked, what is faith. I did not ask, hey is the Bible valid.

Interesting however, IMO, faith and belief can be seperate,

Faith and belief can definitely be separate. Faith is an educated guess. Belief is... deeper.

To go back to the house on the hill example, I can have faith that all 4 sides of the house are yellow even though I can only see one side. My faith in the yellowness of the house can be shaken by someone who says that the back side of the house is blue. I can either believe them, and lose my faith in the pure yellowness of the house or I can ask for proof that there really is a blue side on this house- at this point, I'll learn if they are working on faith or on evidence.

If I were to deny their evidence, my faith is becoming a belief. I believe this house to be yellow, despite evidence to the contrary.

Maybe he was an alien?

Maybe he was Elvis sent back in time, using Lord Lucan's secret time machine?

Who cares about the historical truth, the bible is not about that.

I was not discussing the Bible per se. Scripture etc etc etc

The question has been and will be WHY was he there? WHY Paul?

I am curious as to what folks here would define as faith?

Not that it matters, but I have no idea.

Two churches in two languages : It seems to be working for me. And run 20 green lights in her honor.
-Joe Starck

I was not clear in my question. We have this guy, named Paul, on the road...strolling along........BAM....a vision of the Lord appears to him....OK, now the weird part, did the vision affirm his faith in general......(God, Christ etc etc ) OR because he had faith, he was able to see, hey, why thats the Lord and hey, why is he saying this to me?
If Paul had no faith etc etc, would he have even had the vision? If so.....why was he even on the road?The latter. Hundreds of experiments in cognitive psychology have demonstrated the brain determines what is "seen" not the eyes or the raw input from the environment. The brain fills in gaps and makes interpretations and alters processing based on expectation, experience, context, etc. It's quite an interesting area to read about because in a number of devilishly devised experiments what is projected on the movie screen of the mind is completely out of touch with the stimuli presented, no drugs, malnutrition, poisoning, sleep deprivation, or defects in neuro chemistry required.

Faith is belief in the absence of proof. If there was proof you wouldn't need faith (and I would stop making fun of adults who believe in those fairy tales). A point most thoughtful theologians long ago conceded.

Believing your wife will come home today is inductive reasoning. Thinking if you throw your wife 100' into the air she will fall back to the ground is deductive reasoning. Thinking she is the reincarnation of a demon sent to suck the life out of you is faith.

No...I mean that at some point, a person must choose to either believe in the face of little or no evidence or not believe. It's an X or an O.

I believe in God or I don't.........
I believe in life after death or I don't.......

The actions then flow out of that choice....but at some point, an individual makes that choice. It is the ultimate manifestation of free will. The alternative is that faith is imposed from the outside and the individual has no Choice.

Clear?

len

No.

Like I said...one does not choose who one falls in love with.

I am not sure why you have a problem with that.

You seem to be offended by the fact that your ego is not sovereign.

If faith is just a choice of free will, then one is not transcending anything...it has no more meaning than say being a consumer of celebrity culture. The whole point is to escape from one's narrow ego.

No.

Like I said...one does not choose who one falls in love with.

I am not sure why you have a problem with that.

You seem to be offended by the fact that your ego is not sovereign.

If faith is just a choice of free will, then one is not transcending anything...it has no more meaning than say being a consumer of celebrity culture. The whole point is to escape from one's narrow ego.

I have a problem with your position, as I've explained repeatedly, because it undervalues faith.

It has nothing to do with ego...it has to do with personal responsibility.

Lets take 2 choices:

1.) Your view...faith is somehow not a choice but rather it is imbedded.....it is imposed. Under that view the individual has no ownershoip of the belief. What is that worth?

2.) View # 2.....someone makes the personal choice to believe in what is not provable by facts. Hmmmmm......what is that worth?

Lust my be a biological, genetic impulse, but love, at least any love that means anything is clearly a choice. Unless you are telling me that I have no choice as to who I give my love to.......which would surely make love meaningless.

I asked you in a previous post on the subject to explain conversion to me if faith wasn't a choice.....you ignored it then, I suspect you will again.

You seem to think that I am somehow minimizing faith by calling it a choice...on the contrary, a choice freely given is much more valuable than anything that is imposed.

Len

I have a problem with your position, as I've explained repeatedly, because it undervalues faith.

It has nothing to do with ego...it has to do with personal responsibility.

Lets take 2 choices:

1.) Your view...faith is somehow not a choice but rather it is imbedded.....it is imposed. Under that view the individual has no ownershoip of the belief. What is that worth?

2.) View # 2.....someone makes the personal choice to believe in what is not provable by facts. Hmmmmm......what is that worth?



Len

it's worth is defined by God; not you or any other men cause Faith is not a measure of character. in fact faith can only be defined by actions because it's God who evaluates your faith and not your conscience. It's in the bible as well: when He asks you to kill your own son you go and do it. you were asked by an entity to have faith. you did not decide. it's not an ego trip.
i could go on psychology and symbolic etc... but better stay within religion. easier.

and so is with love. otherwise it's reason... not love.

it's worth is defined by God; not you or any other men cause Faith is not a measure of character. in fact faith can only be defined by actions because it's God who evaluates your faith and not your conscience. It's in the bible as well: when He asks you to kill your own son you go and do it. you were asked by an entity to have faith. you did not decide. it's not an ego trip.
i could go on psychology and symbolic etc... but better stay within religion. easier.

and so is with love. otherwise it's reason... not love.

If you were asked doesn't that imply choice?

Or are you suggesting it is imposed?

Len

If you were asked doesn't that imply choice?

Or are you suggesting it is imposed?

Len

there is no choice. in Faith or in Love.

there is a ... Call. you obey. for your own good.

Every person encounters an idea of faith in some form. It is however a unique journey for each person.

Oddly enough, I have yet to form any definition or justification yet of faith.

The latter. Hundreds of experiments in cognitive psychology have demonstrated the brain determines what is "seen" not the eyes or the raw input from the environment. The brain fills in gaps and makes interpretations and alters processing based on expectation, experience, context, etc. It's quite an interesting area to read about because in a number of devilishly devised experiments what is projected on the movie screen of the mind is completely out of touch with the stimuli presented, no drugs, malnutrition, poisoning, sleep deprivation, or defects in neuro chemistry required.

Faith is belief in the absence of proof. If there was proof you wouldn't need faith (and I would stop making fun of adults who believe in those fairy tales). A point most thoughtful theologians long ago conceded.

Believing your wife will come home today is inductive reasoning. Thinking if you throw your wife 100' into the air she will fall back to the ground is deductive reasoning. Thinking she is the reincarnation of a demon sent to suck the life out of you is faith.

Well said. I enjoyed reading your reply.

there is no choice. in Faith or in Love.

there is a ... Call. you obey. for your own good.

Sounds like a choice to me. I get the call part, but it is each individuals choice as to how to answer.

The alternative is that your god wants automotons.......no thank you.


Len

Sounds like a choice to me. I get the call part, but it is each individuals choice as to how to answer.

The alternative is that your god wants automotons.......no thank you.


Len

why does it have to be "my" God? it's in the Bible... i bet you've read it. the old testament.
now you seem to be attached to the notion that anything must have a "value". it's moral and utilitarian. happyness and faith are not defined by value. nor morals.
see the episode of "kill your son".. the opposite of conscience and yet it was God's request. it tells me everyhting i need to know about the unimportance of conscience in the face of God.

the Bible is a smart book. but you also have to be smart enough to read it.

why does it have to be "my" God? it's in the Bible... i bet you've read it. the old testament.
now you seem to be attached to the notion that anything must have a "value". it's moral and utilitarian. happyness and faith are not defined by value. nor morals.
see the episode of "kill your son".. the opposite of conscience and yet it was God's request. it tells me everyhting i need to know about the unimportance of conscience in the face of God.

the Bible is a smart book. but you also have to be smart enough to read it.


The Bible is not Faith. I asked, what is Faith.

why does it have to be "my" God? it's in the Bible... i bet you've read it. the old testament.
now you seem to be attached to the notion that anything must have a "value". it's moral and utilitarian. happyness and faith are not defined by value. nor morals.

Hey, it's you not me, that said "....you obey. for your own good."......that sounds awful utilitarian to me.

see the episode of "kill your son".. the opposite of conscience and yet it was God's request. it tells me everyhting i need to know about the unimportance of conscience in the face of God.

the Bible is a smart book. but you also have to be smart enough to read it.

Not even a good ad hominum.

What you appear to be missing in your so thorough reading of said bible is the fact that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.....but the power in the story is that Abraham choose to have enough faith in God to comply......u nless your take is that Abraham had no choice in the matter?

Want to try another argument...thjis one sure isn't holding much water.

len

The Bible is not Faith. I asked, what is Faith.

Faith can only be defined by the actions of those who believe. it's God who defines it. Defining faith in words therefore is arrogance.
That's why i brought up the Bible episode. it's pretty clear.. the Bible is about everything, including Faith.

Not even a good ad hominum.

What you appear to be missing in your so thorough reading of said bible is the fact that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son.....but the power in the story is that Abraham choose to have enough faith in God to comply......u nless your take is that Abraham had no choice in the matter?

Want to try another argument...thjis one sure isn't holding much water.

len

I will keep the argument. it's a good one.... maybe i have not made myself clear: Faith is not a matter of conscience therefore not a matter of choice cause choice is decided by conscience. when abraham decides to kill his son against all reason, he is obeying his God cause he feels he has no other choice. faith is felt... not reasoned.

it may not hold water to you but it makes sense to me.

pretending Faith can be defined in a one liner is Arrogance. as much as negating nature when defining the one you will love. Nature is bigger than your conscience. If one decides it's not then he is missing on a hell of a good ride...

I will keep the argument. it's a good one.... maybe i have not made myself clear: Faith is not a matter of conscience therefore not a matter of choice cause choice is decided by conscience. when abraham decides to kill his son against all reason, he is obeying his God cause he feels he has no other choice. faith is felt... not reasoned.

it may not hold water to you but it makes sense to me.

pretending Faith can be defined in a one liner is Arrogance. as much as negating nature when defining the one you will love. Nature is bigger than your conscience. If one decides it's not then he is missing on a hell of a good ride...

Just because he feels he has no choice does not mean he does not have one. Just because the choice was clear to Abraham doesn't reduce the fact that he could have not complied.

I'll ask you again......did God force abraham attempt to sacrifice his son? If your answer is no, then, Abraham chose. He chose to believe.

or, as it says in the bible, was it a "test of faith"......a test implying not just one answer but more than one....hence a choice.

If you believe in a god that does not allow a choice as to wether to believe or not.....then what are the implications of that in the rest of your life?

Ultimatly, it must be a choice or it is compelled...what other option is there?. If it's compelled, it is like eye color, something you have no investment in.

Len

To have faith as the term is commonly understood, one first must have a belief.

Belief that is, in something larger than ourselves, which allows for the hope that we will receive a benefit greater than owed to our own miserable efforts. I don't have much patience for the sort that expects more than they deserve, but whatever.

Faith is the hope that these beliefs are real.

At the end, faith is nothing but an effort to defraud the universe. An honest man is willing to accept the consequences of his actions, and thus finds no need for faith.

Just because he feels he has no choice does not mean he does not have one. Just because the choice was clear to Abraham doesn't reduce the fact that he could have not complied.

I'll ask you again......did God force abraham attempt to sacrifice his son? If your answer is no, then, Abraham chose. He chose to believe.

or, as it says in the bible, was it a "test of faith"......a test implying not just one answer but more than one....hence a choice.

If you believe in a god that does not allow a choice as to wether to believe or not.....then what are the implications of that in the rest of your life?

Ultimatly, it must be a choice or it is compelled...what other option is there?. If it's compelled, it is like eye color, something you have no investment in.

Len

what you say means our conscience is bigger than God, bigger than nature. on the contrary, it's much smaller.
and i can prove it, easily.
our conscience says we are destroying ourselves in wars, cruelty, pollution and greed. are we able to do something? no. because human nature is bigger than this pathethic, arrogant little thing called conscience.
if choice and conscience were so powerfull.. we would have ended injustice a long time a go.

what you say means our conscience is bigger than God, bigger than nature. on the contrary, it's much smaller.
and i can prove it, easily.
our conscience says we are destroying ourselves in wars, cruelty, pollution and greed. are we able to do something? no. because human nature is bigger than this pathethic, arrogant little thing called conscience.
if choice and conscience were so powerfull.. we would have ended injustice a long time a go.

Nice diversion from the fact that your original argument was proving that faith is a choice. You have proved nothing....you say we are destroying ourselves in wars, cruelty, pollution and greed.........that has been true for all time, and yet, out of this depraved human nature you speak of has come advancement after advancement......art, literature, philosophy.......and potentially less war and less injustice than at many many times in the last 10,000 years.

IMO your premise is faulty because it starts from a presumption that a loving god would create us to be depraved. That our natural state would be depraved.......you are sounding like the religious right...Man must be protected from himself.

Back to your argument, Again.......how about answering the basic question (since you used Abraham as your initial proof that faith wasn't a choice)........did your god give abraham a choice....or did he compel him to comply?

It's a simple question really.....but it goes to the heart of your argument. If you say he had no choice (as you seem to be implying), then he & you are just a pawn.....he & you have no free will.....he & you have no choice to turn away from your god.

Sorry, but I don't see a manipulative God in the old testament. Rather I see one that is giving the jewish people a choice to believe in him or not, to follow his coimmandments or not. At it's most basic level, A choice to have faith in him or not.

Do you deny that that is what the old testament says?

Len

taking a leak in the dark and knowing
a) you aim was good
b) the seat was up
c) and/or that your wife won't wake before you

Nice diversion from the fact that your original argument was proving that faith is a choice. You have proved nothing....you say we are destroying ourselves in wars, cruelty, pollution and greed.........that has been true for all time, and yet, out of this depraved human nature you speak of has come advancement after advancement......art, literature, philosophy.......and potentially less war and less injustice than at many many times in the last 10,000 years.

IMO your premise is faulty because it starts from a presumption that a loving god would create us to be depraved. That our natural state would be depraved.......you are sounding like the religious right...Man must be protected from himself.

Back to your argument, Again.......how about answering the basic question (since you used Abraham as your initial proof that faith wasn't a choice)........did your god give abraham a choice....or did he compel him to comply?

It's a simple question really.....but it goes to the heart of your argument. If you say he had no choice (as you seem to be implying), then he & you are just a pawn.....he & you have no free will.....he & you have no choice to turn away from your god.

Sorry, but I don't see a manipulative God in the old testament. Rather I see one that is giving the jewish people a choice to believe in him or not, to follow his coimmandments or not. At it's most basic level, A choice to have faith in him or not.

Do you deny that that is what the old testament says?

Len

There is only one God.... i take "Your God" as deeply offensive therefore we should better stop this.

There is only one God.... i take "Your God" as deeply offensive therefore we should better stop this.

Zeus or Odin?

Your belief is not universal fact.

Zeus or Odin?

Your belief is not universal fact.

This is the crux of a true faith definition. Does faith need to be directed? In short, here we have a simple question: What is Faith?

So far, I have seen belief, its direction, how it requires faith. How there must be one God etc etc all requirements for faith. However, why?

Are we saying, that a tribe or group of people who have never read the Bible are all incapable of faith? IMO, NO.

Should faith have a requirement or demonstration of proof? NO. The moment you have proof, the moment you require it, thats the moment faith ceases.

SO AGAIN, What is faith?

taking a leak in the dark and knowing
a) you aim was good
b) the seat was up
c) and/or that your wife won't wake before you

I call this courage.

Zeus or Odin?

Your belief is not universal fact.

Monotheism. I believe there is only one God. (Mine? no.) Since I am not imposing it on anyone... is there a problem?




calling "your God" on an internet forum......... an idiocy.

EDIT: incomplete message

Monotheism. I believe there is only one God. (Mine? no.) Since I am not imposing it on anyone... is there a problem?




calling "your God" on an internet forum......... an idiocy.

EDIT: incomplete message

Why do we need to call a God, God? It seems at best arcane.. WHY is there a NEED?

This is a very central issue to faith. I will be most interested in all replies.

Your belief is not universal fact.

that's a good line. you could it after every single major rant on PO. :D

Nice diversion from the fact that your original argument was proving that faith is a choice. You have proved nothing....you say we are destroying ourselves in wars, cruelty, pollution and greed.........that has been true for all time, and yet, out of this depraved human nature you speak of has come advancement after advancement......art, literature, philosophy.......and potentially less war and less injustice than at many many times in the last 10,000 years.

IMO your premise is faulty because it starts from a presumption that a loving god would create us to be depraved. That our natural state would be depraved.......you are sounding like the religious right...Man must be protected from himself.

Back to your argument, Again.......how about answering the basic question (since you used Abraham as your initial proof that faith wasn't a choice)........did your god give abraham a choice....or did he compel him to comply?

It's a simple question really.....but it goes to the heart of your argument. If you say he had no choice (as you seem to be implying), then he & you are just a pawn.....he & you have no free will.....he & you have no choice to turn away from your god.

Sorry, but I don't see a manipulative God in the old testament. Rather I see one that is giving the jewish people a choice to believe in him or not, to follow his coimmandments or not. At it's most basic level, A choice to have faith in him or not.

Do you deny that that is what the old testament says?

Len

Len-

I believe you are correct, however, there is that New Testament thing. Interesting reading would also be found in the Torah on this very idea.

Why do we need to call a God, God? It seems at best arcane.. WHY is there a NEED?

This is a very central issue to faith. I will be most interested in all replies.

my religion doesn't even use his name. otoh we don't preach. we have faith.. or doubt it. do you notice that even when you doubt he is present since you questioned?

is there something bigger than man?

my religion doesn't even use his name. otoh we don't preach. we have faith.. or doubt it. do you notice that even when you doubt he is present since you questioned?

is there something bigger than man?

Excellent point.

However, that might be for you and me, not necessarily a universal concept here. Be he, Jehovah, The annointed one, God, Apook, Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Jupiter etc etc etc etc

Why attempt to assign an identity? It just seems very arcane to bag up the idea of faith in language or the concept of a God.

Len-

I believe you are correct, however, there is that New Testament thing. Interesting reading would also be found in the Torah on this very idea.

you asked on our beliefs... well, i believe there is no choice over the existence of God. not even an atheist has a choice.. the question is.. where is God? the smartest thinking on this comes from Spinoza. he said it's impossible to know. Our conscience is limited. knowledge, language is limited. God expresses through nature and through us. we should learn more and more knowing nature/ God is always far in the horizon. unexcrutable.

you asked on our beliefs... well, i believe there is no choice over the existence of God. not even an atheist has a choice.. the question is.. where is God? the smartest thinking on this comes from Spinoza. he said it's impossible to know. Our conscience is limited. knowledge, language is limited. God expresses through nature and through us. we should learn more and more knowing nature/ God is always far in the horizon. unexcrutable.


I do not care in the least about a belief. I care about faith.

There is a big difference. I also like Spinoza, however, the issue is not belief, its faith.

Faith keeps you going when the sh!t is flying. It keeps people from giving up on life in the face of all the trouble that comes your way on a regular basis. It is that feeling that this all must be worth the trouble, somehow.

There is only one God... i take "Your God" as deeply offensive therefore we should better stop this.

Would you rather I pretended he was my god too?

Deeply offensive LOL...nice way to get out of an argument you are losing.

I didn't realize that you only argued with people that held the same beliefs you do....thanks for clarifying.

So, since there is only one God gfor you, anyone who holds a different opinion and expresses it will offend you? I find that incredible.....especially for someone posting on an internet board and a politics board at that.

Very revealing post.

len

Len-

I believe you are correct, however, there is that New Testament thing. Interesting reading would also be found in the Torah on this very idea.

2 thoughts:

1.) colker, I think, is jewish...therefor I limited myself to the old testament in my response.

2.) I think the core of the new testament, that related to Jesus himself, supports my position........when you get into some of the acts, I believe begin to distort Christ's mesage somewhat in order to "take the edge of" and make it ,more acceptable.

Interesting thread.

Len

Would you rather I pretended he was my god too?

Deeply offensive LOL...nice way to get out of an argument you are losing.

I didn't realize that you only argued with people that held the same beliefs you do....thanks for clarifying.

So, since there is only one God gfor you, anyone who holds a different opinion and expresses it will offend you? I find that incredible.....especially for someone posting on an internet board and a politics board at that.

Very revealing post.

len

Good questions inspire the most irksome remarks. Its the nature of the beast. I am however, very very interested in how a question of faith, has turned to the constructs made to encompass belief.

Odd.

There are two meanings of faith. First, there is the general definition which has already been addressed which is "belief without evidence". Then there is faith in Christ. This second faith is a gift from God and you either have it or you do not. There are more than a few so-called Christians who claim to have faith in Christ but in reality they are faithless. There is plenty of evidence for those who have faith in Christ. But, those who do not have faith in Christ can neither understand nor make sense of this evidence.

Those who have faith in Christ can understand his teachings and his philosophy of absolute love. Those who do not have faith in Christ cannot make sense of his teachings. Faith in Christ is not something that can be obtained by will. It is not something that you wish for or that you decide to have. It is a blessing from God that is given to some but not to all. If you do not have faith in Christ and you wish to attain it then you can pray to God for his intersession. But, you will only acquire it if God bestows it upon you. Otherwise, you will never attain it.


:)

There are two meanings of faith. First, there is the general definition which has already been addressed which is "belief without evidence". Then there is faith in Christ. This second faith is a gift from God and you either have it or you do not. There are more than a few so-called Christians who claim to have faith in Christ but in reality they are faithless. There is plenty of evidence for those who have faith in Christ. But, those who do not have faith in Christ can neither understand nor make sense of this evidence.

Those who have faith in Christ can understand his teachings and his philosophy of absolute love. Those who do not have faith in Christ cannot make sense of his teachings. Faith in Christ is not something that can be obtained by will. It is not something that you wish for or that you decide to have. It is a blessing from God that is given to some but not to all. If you do not have faith in Christ and you wish to attain it then you can pray to God for his intersession. But, you will only acquire it if God bestows it upon you. Otherwise, you will never attain it.


:)

IF you believe in Christ,

According to the Bible, SALVATION in Christ, can be obtained by all. Thats the entire point of the New Testament. Otherwise the Gospels of John, Matthew,Mark and Luke would not need to exist. The path to Salvation is rather simple, but NOT the point of the thread.

ALL are welcomed, ALL can do this.

However, at the core of this is faith. What is it? What is faith? Christ did say that having faith enabled incredible things. See Matthew. However, having faith...quite a challenge.

Would you rather I pretended he was my god too?

Deeply offensive LOL...nice way to get out of an argument you are losing.

I didn't realize that you only argued with people that held the same beliefs you do....thanks for clarifying.

So, since there is only one God gfor you, anyone who holds a different opinion and expresses it will offend you? I find that incredible.....especially for someone posting on an internet board and a politics board at that.

Very revealing post.

len

very revealing of what exactly?

of course there is only one God cause i am from a MONOTHEISTIC religion. what does monotheism means, please... i am not preaching to others and that's my position in this thread. calling "your God" otoh in the midst of a religious discussion shows CONTEMPT and ARROGANCE.

i would get out of the argument but since you insist ... would you rather i say that "Love is a choice" means an emotional constraint? that one who is uncapable to deal w/ passion becomes a control freak and talks obsessively of choice. now that's revealing.:D
Faith ca't be defined (especially in one liners) but it's nature is overwhelming. It surpasses reason, it's an epiphany... Love which is the expression of Him is overwhelming. It's the core of the universe. Not conscience and choice. You surrender to it or you don't.. Is it imposed? yes. in a loving, marvellous way.

Faith arises from a need for a reason to be.

IF you believe in Christ,

According to the Bible, SALVATION in Christ, can be obtained by all. Thats the entire point of the New Testament. Otherwise the Gospels of John, Matthew,Mark and Luke would not need to exist. The path to Salvation is rather simple, but NOT the point of the thread.

ALL are welcomed, ALL can do this.

However, at the core of this is faith. What is it? What is faith? Christ did say that having faith enabled incredible things. See Matthew. However, having faith...quite a challenge.

What kind of faith are you trying to define?

There's faith, as in "the christian faith" or "the muslim faith," which is using faith as a synonym for religion.

Then, there's faith, as in "I have faith in my co-worker's abilities," where faith is a version of trust.

Then, there's faith, as in "I have faith that god will get me through this," where faith is something like hope and trust tied together.

Then, there's faith, as in "I dated a girl named faith and she was freaking crazy."

What kind of faith are you trying to define?

There's faith, as in "the christian faith" or "the muslim faith," which is using faith as a synonym for religion.

Then, there's faith, as in "I have faith in my co-worker's abilities," where faith is a version of trust.

Then, there's faith, as in "I have faith that god will get me through this," where faith is something like hope and trust tied together.

Then, there's faith, as in "I dated a girl named faith and she was freaking crazy."


I am trying to define a universal concept of faith. I do not want to categorize faith as far as a muslim faith, A christian faith etc etc etc. I too dated a woman named Faith...that was fun, however, not a universal concept I was looking for.

I find it very difficult to believe that if you have faith, it must be muslim or christian or whatever, at thje core, there must be something else.

I call this courage.

if you do not believe

if you have faith you are fearless

if you do not believe

if you have faith you are fearless

If you have love, you have the greatest of all.

. . .Then there is faith in Christ. This second faith is a gift from God and you either have it or you do not. There are more than a few so-called Christians who claim to have faith in Christ but in reality they are faithless. There is plenty of evidence for those who have faith in Christ. But, those who do not have faith in Christ can neither understand nor make sense of this evidence.

Those who have faith in Christ can understand his teachings and his philosophy of absolute love. Those who do not have faith in Christ cannot make sense of his teachings. Faith in Christ is not something that can be obtained by will. It is not something that you wish for or that you decide to have. It is a blessing from God that is given to some but not to all. If you do not have faith in Christ and you wish to attain it then you can pray to God for his intersession. But, you will only acquire it if God bestows it upon you. Otherwise, you will never attain it.
So there's no free will will this faith in god?

This god of yours selects certain people to beleieve in him while he leaves others in the dark?

That's a pretty selective reading of the New Testament. You just glance over most books and only read the ones attributed to the historical "John?"

So there's no free will will this faith in god?

This god of yours selects certain people to beleieve in him while he leaves others in the dark?

That's a pretty selective reading of the New Testament. You just glance over most books and only read the ones attributed to the historical "John?"

I suspect, though don't know that free will comes in the choice to accept the gift or not.

Len

I suspect, though don't know that free will comes in the choice to accept the gift or not.
Clever retort, but that would make it seem like the gidt is not faith, but the capacity to have faith.

Clever retort, but that would make it seem like the gidt is not faith, but the capacity to have faith.

Possibly the best reply yet.

Very well said.

I suspect, though don't know that free will comes in the choice to accept the gift or not.

Len

Free Willy!:D HTH

I am trying to define a universal concept of faith. I do not want to categorize faith as far as a muslim faith, A christian faith etc etc etc. I too dated a woman named Faith...that was fun, however, not a universal concept I was looking for.

I find it very difficult to believe that if you have faith, it must be muslim or christian or whatever, at thje core, there must be something else.

I've got no real religious faith. I'm as agnostic as they come- 8 years of catholic school will do that to you- but I've got faith in the basic goodness of people. I know that 9 times out of 10, people will do the right thing. That's my faith. Just like a religious faith, I've been shown evidence that my faith is not reasonable many times, yet I keep believing that people are good. Why? because if I didn't, life would be pretty unbearable.

So my faith in the goodness of people is a coping mechanism for living in a world that can be cruel and impersonal. Because I believe people are basically good, I can leave the house without worrying about someone deciding to run me over for the fun of it. Doesn't mean that I'll never cross the path of some drunk driver.

If you have love, you have the greatest of all.

faith, love, courage

someday they'll speak of the midnite pee parable

faith, love, courage

someday they'll speak of the midnite pee parable

I recall the Porters speech from Macbeth.....Interesting..

Macbeth: Act 2, Scene 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enter a PORTER. Knocking within.
Porter
1 Here's a knocking indeed! If a man were
2 porter of Hell Gate, he should have old turning the
3 key. (Knock.) Knock, knock, knock! Who's there,
4 i' the name of Beelzebub? Here's a farmer, that hang'd
5 himself on th' expectation of plenty. Come in time!
6 Have napkins enow about you; here you'll sweat for't.
7 (Knock.) Knock, knock! Who's there, in the other
8 devil's name? Faith, here's an equivocator, that could
9 swear in both the scales against either scale, who com-
10 mitted treason enough for God's sake, yet could
11 not equivocate to heaven. O, come in, equivocator.
12 (Knock.) Knock, knock, knock! Who's there? Faith,
13 here's an English tailor come hither, for stealing
14 out of a French hose: come in, tailor; here you may
15 roast your goose. (Knock.) Knock, knock! Never
16 at quiet! What are you? But this place is too
17 cold for hell. I'll devil-porter it no further: I had
18 thought to have let in some of all professions that go
19 the primrose way to the everlasting bonfire. (Knock.)
20 Anon, anon! [Opens the gate.] I pray you, remember
21 the porter.

Enter MACDUFF and LENNOX.

MACDUFF
22 Was it so late, friend, ere you went to bed,
23 That you do lie so late?

Porter
24 'Faith sir, we were carousing till the second cock;
25 and drink, sir, is a great provoker of three things.

MACDUFF
26 What three things does drink especially pro-
27 voke?

Porter
28 Marry, sir, nose-painting, sleep, and urine.
29 Lechery, sir, it provokes, and unprovokes; it provokes
30 the desire, but it takes away the performance. There-
31 fore, much drink may be said to be an equivocator
32 with lechery: it makes him, and it mars him; it sets him
33 on, and it takes him off; it persuades him, and dis-
34 heartens him; makes him stand to, and not stand to; in
35 conclusion, equivocates him in a sleep, and, giving him
36 the lie, leaves him.

MACDUFF
37 I believe drink gave thee the lie last night.

Porter
38 That it did, sir, i' the very throat on me; but I re-
39 quited him for his lie; and, I think, being too strong
40 for him, though he took up my legs sometime, yet I
41 made a shift to cast him.

Clever retort, but that would make it seem like the gidt is not faith, but the capacity to have faith.

which is precisly what I think it is....although I'll be interested in LS's response to your question.

My understanding of the Bible (as interpreted through a Roman Catholic Upbringing...which I no longer practice (to be up-font)) is that God gave us the gift of both Original sin and the capacity to overcome it through belief in him (and his son for the new testament followers). He also gave us the free will to choose to accept that gift or not. I think the disagreements in this thread stem from which direction you answer the question from.

One side seems to believe that the gift is the faith itself.......me, I believe that it is the act of accepting the gift out of my free will that is the act of faith itself. The truth at least from the perspective of a faith based on the bible, is that both are necessary for faith.

Now for someone that doesn't believe in the divine inspiration of the bible, faith has to IMO be centered on the choice to believe.

I suspect that a hindu (or a muslim or any other non-bible based "faith") would define faith differently since he would be grounding it on a different base than the bible.

Knowing the foundation of the responder informs the interpretation of the response.

len

which is precisly what I think it is....although I'll be interested in LS's response to your question.

My understanding of the Bible (as interpreted through a Roman Catholic Upbringing...which I no longer practice (to be up-font)) is that God gave us the gift of both Original sin and the capacity to overcome it through belief in him (and his son for the new testament followers). He also gave us the free will to choose to accept that gift or not. I think the disagreements in this thread stem from which direction you answer the question from.

One side seems to believe that the gift is the faith itself.......me, I believe that it is the act of accepting the gift out of my free will that is the act of faith itself. The truth at least from the perspective of a faith based on the bible, is that both are necessary for faith.

Now for someone that doesn't believe in the divine inspiration of the bible, faith has to IMO be centered on the choice to believe.

I suspect that a hindu (or a muslim or any other non-bible based "faith") would define faith differently since he would be grounding it on a different base than the bible.

Knowing the foundation of the responder informs the interpretation of the response.

len

I am glad to read this.

The Bible while wonderful does not create faith......something else puts us there. Something else defines faith.

I suspect, though don't know that free will comes in the choice to accept the gift or not.

Len

That is one way out from the intellectual cul de sac you find yourself in having declared previously that faith is a choice...in the same way (presumably) that deciding between a mac or a PC is also a choice?

I concur with Colker. Religion is a calling...one is chosen. Take that for what it is...if you want to interpret that into a construct of this or that God 'choosing' or 'forcing' his religion onto to you (as if he/it would care so much), that is your prerogative.

It is true that one can choose to act or not act on that 'calling'...same with any passion to a degree. Perhaps we can at least agree on that?

I admit that one could choose to follow a certain path...perhaps with an end goal of 'faith', but that is not the same as 'faith' after all, but merely a sentimental act, even if one feels ennobled by it, it is ultimately a vain action...and inauthentic.

Live in love. Reject hatred in all forms. Abandon fear.

To the extent that we live this way, we experience unspeakable joy. To the extent that we do not, we suffer consequences.
This is the law, ancient and inexhaustible.
Living in this way is the keys to the Kingdom, the path to Paradise, the Way to nirvana, it is walking with God.
It is also deducible by reason alone as the best way to live, the surest way to experience joy and avoid suffering, both as societies and as individuals.
All concepts of favor and damnation, of sin, of karma or morality are merely expansions on these themes.

Faith in one sense is belief in a particular set of allegory and metaphor which describe this law.
Faith in the other sense is the use of the tool of belief to abandon fear, which is often difficult by rational means. It is not impossible, but just as faith and belief take a sort of mental training (usually called prayer), so does the reasonable mind (in ways usually recognized as meditation.)
The faithful find no quarrel here, all are merely climbing different faces of the same mountain.

Argument comes only where the belief is based on fear and hatred, universally a result of one man using the tools of religion to control others. Here, we are meant to believe in a God that damns most of his creation for eternity for failure to believe, even though the vast majority never have the opportunity, courtesy of time or culture, to believe whichever of the myths is supposed to be the correct one. This we are told to believe, is how a Just and Merciful God would arrange things. This is a system that has no effect on the non-believer and wrongdoer, but subjects the good and the faithful to the threat of eternal damnation for using God's greatest gift - the mind. If there is a more evil system by which to arrange the world, I have not found it.

Fortunately and obviously, I believe this to be a gross misrepresentation of reality. I feel no particular need to cling to a hope of a next life, as I am (usually) perfectly happy in this one. What's more, I am confident that should there be a next life, I am walking a path that will find me greeted warmly in it. Almost certainly I would need to atone for certain shortcomings, but that is as it should be. Perhaps I could find faith in some forgiveness that would allow me to avoid the wages of my poor choices, but I have no need. I would joyfully face that music, requiring only that others should face theirs. To hope otherwise is to hope to perpetuate a fraud. Another signature of man's touch, not God's.

If I were wrong about what would find favor in the next life, it is company I would as soon not keep for all of eternity.



Faith, indeed, has up to the present not been able to move real mountains.... But it can put mountains where there are none. ~Friedrich Nietzche, Human, All Too Human, 1879

I asked you in a previous post on the subject to explain conversion to me if faith wasn't a choice.....you ignored it then, I suspect you will again.


Are you talking about conversion to another faith through epiphany or personal choice?

The former is conversion heart & soul, the latter is a pious sentiment.

Are you talking about conversion to another faith through epiphany or personal choice?

The former is conversion heart & soul, the latter is a pious sentiment.

Isnt the perception of an epiphany governed by the choice of the individual to interpret it?

Otherwise, why call it an epiphany?

One could ignore or choose not to act upon this moment.....This is a very real possibility.

That is one way out from the intellectual cul de sac you find yourself in having declared previously that faith is a choice...in the same way (presumably) that deciding between a mac or a PC is also a choice?

I concur with Colker. Religion is a calling...one is chosen. Take that for what it is...if you want to interpret that into a construct of this or that God 'choosing' or 'forcing' his religion onto to you (as if he/it would care so much), that is your prerogative.

It is true that one can choose to act or not act on that 'calling'...same with any passion to a degree. Perhaps we can at least agree on that?

I admit that one could choose to follow a certain path...perhaps with an end goal of 'faith', but that is not the same as 'faith' after all, but merely a sentimental act, even if one feels ennobled by it, it is ultimately a vain action...and inauthentic.

Speaking of intellectual cul de sacs..............

Are you talking about conversion to another faith through epiphany or personal choice?

The former is conversion heart & soul, the latter is a pious sentiment.

one chooses to give their heart and soul.

Does god compel you to believe?

len

Isnt the perception of an epiphany governed by the choice of the individual to interpret it?

Otherwise, why call it an epiphany?

One could ignore or choose not to act upon this moment.....This is a very real possibility.

you asked what is faith.

we can discuss if there is a choice out of faith. if you chose not to have it's cause you lost faith. so you can't chose anymore...

so faith by definition is closer to Presence than choice.

saying that Faith to be defined per se IS dependant on choice is absurd. that's not an answer. that's a personal issue.
faith is personal though that's not tell you what it is...

if Faith is the feeling of a presence... then it's not a choice. either you feel it or you don't.
you may profess a religion as a cultural value in your life and yet you are unable to have faith.

Speaking of intellectual cul de sacs..............

one liners... are the complete lack of substance.

you asked what is faith.

we can discuss if there is a choice out of faith. if you chose not to have it's cause you lost faith. so you can't chose anymore...

so faith by definition is closer to Presence than choice.

saying that Faith to be defined per se IS dependant on choice is absurd. that's not an answer. that's a personal issue.
faith is personal though that's not tell you what it is...

if Faith is the feeling of a presence... then it's not a choice. either you feel it or you don't.
you may profess a religion as a cultural value in your life and yet you are unable to have faith.


Presence of what? Does not presence require proof? What are the criteria for having or not having faith?

This is not very clear as far as what faith is.

one chooses to give their heart and soul.

Does god compel you to believe?

len

yes... by showing his presence. it's obvious. it's overwhelming. it's not a coertion but you have no choice in the face of divinity.

yes... by showing his presence. it's obvious. it's overwhelming. it's not a coertion but you have no choice in the face of divinity.

Is the showing of presence required?

If so, how is this faith? Wouldnt this mean that fait requires proof? The complete opposite of claiming faith?

Presence of what? Does not presence require proof? What are the criteria for having or not having faith?

This is not very clear as far as what faith is.

i believe it's very hard if not impossible to define something that defies reason.
His presence cannot be proved but it's felt.
the criteria is in your actions... and your feelings.

now.. we live in a secular world where the actions of faith are limited by the secular law. am i saying there is a higher power? in a way, yes. and that's why one philosopher said that God was dead.

i believe it's very hard if not impossible to define something that defies reason.
His presence cannot be proved but it's felt.
the criteria is in your actions... and your feelings.

now.. we live in a secular world where the actions of faith are limited by the secular law. am i saying there is a higher power? in a way, yes. and that's why one philosopher said that God was dead.

Undersood, however, that means that there seems to be a cause, or rather a condition for faith, the presence, the perception of his presence.

I do not understnad this. Primarily, its another way of saying that is a proof as it were that demonstrates faith. I do not understanmd why faith is required to have proof.

This is a stark contradiction to everything so far discussed.

IF you believe in Christ,

According to the Bible, SALVATION in Christ, can be obtained by all. Thats the entire point of the New Testament. Otherwise the Gospels of John, Matthew,Mark and Luke would not need to exist. The path to Salvation is rather simple, but NOT the point of the thread.

ALL are welcomed, ALL can do this.

However, at the core of this is faith. What is it? What is faith? Christ did say that having faith enabled incredible things. See Matthew. However, having faith...quite a challenge.


"Free will" or "choice" is a prerequisite for attaining the gift of faith in Christ but it is not sufficient. How many times have we met others who call themselves Christians but would never lift a finger to help the homeless or even strike up a conversation with them? How many times have we met others who call themselves Christians and claim that they are Pro-Life but would never consider helping single mothers or taking in a pregnant teenager into their homes. These are examples of free will or choice but in reality they are faithless when it comes to Christ.

Faith in Christ is much more than empty words. Anyone can claim that they have faith out of free will or choice. But a person of true faith expresses their faith through good works in their life. Such works are a confirmation of true faith. Faith is baseless without good works.

So yes, all are welcome as you say but not all are saved.

Undersood, however, that means that there seems to be a cause, or rather a condition for faith, the presence, the perception of his presence.

I do not understnad this. Primarily, its another way of saying that is a proof as it were that demonstrates faith. I do not understanmd why faith is required to have proof.

This is a stark contradiction to everything so far discussed.

you asked for a definition... now you are talking about the conditions for it's existence. i am trying to find the definition first.. how one deals w/ having or not faith is a very delicate subject.
let's talk about a condition... you may decide to spouse faith based on reason or choice; meaning devoting yourself to religion. each religion has it's concepts and set of obligations so this faith becomes dependant on the obligations you perform: how you pray, what you "think" God is... that's the problem many of those who have been through religious schools find: an empty set of rules. adults are not kids. adults are not forced into belief. otoh there is the religious epiphany when you understand the presence of God in a overwhelm of the senses. it's a powerfull circumstance closer to madness but extremely liberating. it's acircumstance that brings a powerfull faith.
each religion will conjure this circumstance w/ different concepts and even.... techniques.

"Free will" or "choice" is a prerequisite for attaining the gift of faith in Christ but it is not sufficient. How many times have we met others who call themselves Christians but would never lift a finger to help the homeless or even strike up a conversation with them? How many times have we met others who call themselves Christians and claim that they are Pro-Life but would never consider helping single mothers or taking in a pregnant teenager into their homes. These are examples of free will or choice but in reality they are faithless when it comes to Christ.

Faith in Christ is much more than empty words. Anyone can claim that they have faith out of free will or choice. But a person of true faith expresses their faith through good works in their life. Such works are a confirmation of true faith. Faith is baseless without good works.

So yes, all are welcome as you say but not all are saved.

that's what i have been saying in the thread... Faith is defined by action. not words.

"Free will" or "choice" is a prerequisite for attaining the gift of faith in Christ but it is not sufficient. How many times have we met others who call themselves Christians but would never lift a finger to help the homeless or even strike up a conversation with them? How many times have we met others who call themselves Christians and claim that they are Pro-Life but would never consider helping single mothers or taking in a pregnant teenager into their homes. These are examples of free will or choice but in reality they are faithless when it comes to Christ.

Faith in Christ is much more than empty words. Anyone can claim that they have faith out of free will or choice. But a person of true faith expresses their faith through good works in their life. Such works are a confirmation of true faith. Faith is baseless without good works.

So yes, all are welcome as you say but not all are saved.

I would not presume to know if all are saved. This is the decision and work of God almighty.

I also do not presume to tell a person if they indeed have faith or perhaps most rudely, their faith is baseless. That again, is a God thing.

Again, while I am Christian, I do not wish to discuss the tenets of Christianity, I want to discuss what faith is. I leave the final word to God.

Lastly, when we strive to define faith by our actions, those actions are interpreted as demonstrating values, not faith. Many actions reflect our inner values, which can be totally exclusive to those defined as showing faith. Which again, I have yet to understand what this actually is.

that's what i have been saying in the thread... Faith is defined by action. not words.

It can be defined by action, but what it actually is.....very long quest.

one liners... are the complete lack of substance.

or the reaction to a post that adds nothing to the discussion.

I would not presume to know if all are saved. This is the decision and work of God almighty.

I also do not presume to tell a person if they indeed have faith or perhaps most rudely, their faith is baseless. That again, is a God thing.

Again, while I am Christian, I do not wish to discuss the tenets of Christianity, I want to discuss what faith is. I leave the final word to God.

Lastly, when we strive to define faith by our actions, those actions are interpreted as demonstrating values, not faith. Many actions reflect our inner values, which can be totally exclusive to those defined as showing faith. Which again, I have yet to understand what this actually is.


I would never "tell a person if they indeed have faith or perhaps most rudely, their faith is baseless". Only God can determine what is in a person’s heart and therefore only God can judge a person’s faith. Anyone who walks up to another person and accuses them of not having faith is misguided. I don’t know what is in your heart and neither does anyone else.

What I am saying is that faith in Christ is based on love. Not just love for God but also love for your fellow man. Love is what drives one to have compassion and empathy for others. If one truly has compassion and empathy then they express it through good works. Without good works there is no love for others and without love there is no faith. It is not enough to call yourself a Christian. Christianity without good works is a contradiction.

or the reaction to a post that adds nothing to the discussion.

i guess it could be said of both posts. the difference being i don't make it a habit... on the contrary. my irony is not as magnificent and sufficient maybe...

I would never "tell a person if they indeed have faith or perhaps most rudely, their faith is baseless". Only God can determine what is in a person’s heart and therefore only God can judge a person’s faith. Anyone who walks up to another person and accuses them of not having faith is misguided. I don’t know what is in your heart and neither does anyone else.

What I am saying is that faith in Christ is based on love. Not just love for God but also love for your fellow man. Love is what drives one to have compassion and empathy for others. If one truly has compassion and empathy then they express it through good works. Without good works there is no love for others and without love there is no faith. It is not enough to call yourself a Christian. Christianity without good works is a contradiction.

Good works can be a very very touchy topic. However, I leave that up to God.

I would not presume to know if all are saved. This is the decision and work of God almighty.

I also do not presume to tell a person if they indeed have faith or perhaps most rudely, their faith is baseless. That again, is a God thing.

Again, while I am Christian, I do not wish to discuss the tenets of Christianity, I want to discuss what faith is. I leave the final word to God.

Lastly, when we strive to define faith by our actions, those actions are interpreted as demonstrating values, not faith. Many actions reflect our inner values, which can be totally exclusive to those defined as showing faith. Which again, I have yet to understand what this actually is.

we should not judge others faith. i agree. and our actions should not be judged by people as a show of our faith.
our actions are moved by faith or lack of faith.

I would never "tell a person if they indeed have faith or perhaps most rudely, their faith is baseless". Only God can determine what is in a person’s heart and therefore only God can judge a person’s faith. Anyone who walks up to another person and accuses them of not having faith is misguided. I don’t know what is in your heart and neither does anyone else.

What I am saying is that faith in Christ is based on love. Not just love for God but also love for your fellow man. Love is what drives one to have compassion and empathy for others. If one truly has compassion and empathy then they express it through good works. Without good works there is no love for others and without love there is no faith. It is not enough to call yourself a Christian. Christianity without good works is a contradiction.

hmmm... excellent post.

yes... by showing his presence. it's obvious. it's overwhelming. it's not a coertion but you have no choice in the face of divinity.

see this is where I'm having the problem colker.

I understand the overwhelming presence, I understand the feeling....but I still contend in that moment beyond feeling it, is a choice to "go with it"...a choice to believe.

I think you are confusing the feeling of the presence with the choice to accept it as God.

You can't use "not coercion" and "no choice" in explaining this.
and try to claim it as proof.......it violates every law of logic.

BTW...I don't think we are as far apart as you may think.....

Len

It can be defined by action, but what it actually is.....very long quest.

bigger than words. faith is you.. being smaller. bigger. weaker. stronger.

i guess it could be said of both posts. the difference being i don't make it a habit... on the contrary. my irony is not as magnificent and sufficient maybe...

Perhaps one of us is more efficient.:blush2:

Len

Sounds like a choice to me.

Len
I was really struggling with what you meant by your statement. Now reading down the thread a little it makes sense. And I have to agree with you. It is a choice that comes from making decisions about things that aren't entirely, or at all, backed up by data. I think that's an excellent point.

see this is where I'm having the problem colker.

I understand the overwhelming presence, I understand the feeling....but I still contend in that moment beyond feeling it, is a choice to "go with it"...a choice to believe.

I think you are confusing the feeling of the presence with the choice to accept it as God.

You can't use "not coercion" and "no choice" in explaining this.
and try to claim it as proof.......it violates every law of logic.

BTW...I don't think we are as far apart as you may think.....

Len

you may chose not to go along w/ one religion. you may chose to doubt a morality which cannot be questioned or contradicted.... is this a loss of faith? not necessarily. Luther didn't accept the morality of the catholic church and acted heretically without losing faith.

maybe there is a window into another order of the universe. once the window opens you feel the presence and once it opens you need faith. Faith is action. Pray. you need religion cause it knows those actions.

one can turn to budhism, catholicsm, judaism or kardecism in search of a morality he concurs with but all those religions are about actions of faith in love.

you may chose not to follow... as long as you understand what is it that's bigger than your conscience. maybe nature.

Perhaps one of us is more efficient.:blush2:

Len

we are different but we can coexhist...

very revealing of what exactly?

of course there is only one God cause i am from a MONOTHEISTIC religion. what does monotheism means, please... i am not preaching to others and that's my position in this thread. calling "your God" otoh in the midst of a religious discussion shows CONTEMPT and ARROGANCE.

i would get out of the argument but since you insist ... would you rather i say that "Love is a choice" means an emotional constraint? that one who is uncapable to deal w/ passion becomes a control freak and talks obsessively of choice. now that's revealing.:D
Faith ca't be defined (especially in one liners) but it's nature is overwhelming. It surpasses reason, it's an epiphany... Love which is the expression of Him is overwhelming. It's the core of the universe. Not conscience and choice. You surrender to it or you don't.. Is it imposed? yes. in a loving, marvellous way.

I was reading this thread pretty closely. Your last paragraph has swayed me. I think it's beautifully expressed...

very revealing of what exactly?

of course there is only one God cause i am from a MONOTHEISTIC religion. what does monotheism means, please... i am not preaching to others and that's my position in this thread. calling "your God" otoh in the midst of a religious discussion shows CONTEMPT and ARROGANCE.

No, it shows that your god is not my god....period. If you choose to read more than that into it...that's your problem.

Of course , for you there is one god........but your posts imply that that is the only truth for the rest of us....can't you see that?

i would get out of the argument but since you insist ... would you rather i say that "Love is a choice" means an emotional constraint? that one who is uncapable to deal w/ passion becomes a control freak and talks obsessively of choice. now that's revealing.:D


See that's your problem, not mine.....you only see 2 choices, yours or an absurd extreme in the opposite direction.........if one doesn't immediatly surrender to lust they are a control freak. who is incapable of dealing with passion..........as opposed to a mature adult. Once again, your posts reveal more than you intend.

Faith ca't be defined (especially in one liners) but it's nature is overwhelming. It surpasses reason, it's an epiphany... Love which is the expression of Him is overwhelming. It's the core of the universe. Not conscience and choice. You surrender to it or you don't.. Is it imposed? yes. in a loving, marvellous way.

Once again you define choice and then rail against it.

Like I said, revealing.

len

we should not judge others faith. i agree. and our actions should not be judged by people as a show of our faith.
our actions are moved by faith or lack of faith.

I agree, however, here is the kicker:

WHO decides how these actions are deemed? ARe you saying, I cvhose to do this action, it was by some weird way, faith filled and thus, I have shown faith?

IF so, I chose, I made a decision to act in that way.OR Did I? That is what I am trying to figure out becuase that is at the crux of what faith is about. As you say, actions, as we know, actions are the result of some process. WHO does that process? You got me. However, a decision was made.

Was it God?
Was it the ugly chick next door?
Was it the boozer who beats his wife?
Was it you?

I DO NOT KNOW. See what I mean?

I would never "tell a person if they indeed have faith or perhaps most rudely, their faith is baseless". Only God can determine what is in a person’s heart and therefore only God can judge a person’s faith. Anyone who walks up to another person and accuses them of not having faith is misguided. I don’t know what is in your heart and neither does anyone else.

What I am saying is that faith in Christ is based on love. Not just love for God but also love for your fellow man. Love is what drives one to have compassion and empathy for others. If one truly has compassion and empathy then they express it through good works. Without good works there is no love for others and without love there is no faith. It is not enough to call yourself a Christian. Christianity without good works is a contradiction.

THEN why did you say, all are not saved?

How do you know that? I dont.

Once again you define choice and then rail against it.

Like I said, revealing.

len

I think you were correct when you said that both of you were closer to each other than it would appear, or words to that effect.

The whole thing is like a catch 22 in reverse which doesn't really make any sense. Then again faith doesn't make a whole lot of sense on one hand, otoh, it may make all the sense in the world, and it's overwhelming, not leaving much room to choose out of it.

Hey, I don't want to get too involved here, I'm just being entertained.:)

Once again you define choice and then rail against it.

Like I said, revealing.

len

This is a thread where most are christian while i am not. i am not using "My God" but simply God... why? because there is only one. You will interpret his presence according to your religion and i will according to mine.
it's a matter of language. not a matter of truth.

Love begins with lust so it's not that despiccable. Love is a heightened sense of reality, a possession. No wonder it's been represented by a cupid who takes your heart w/ an arrow. it takes you from "outside" .. this is thousands of years of wisedom and you despise it w/ a self sufficient, self grand CHOICE. that's dellusion... that's foolish. love is not decided. it's a call from nature. you are part of nature. Schoppenhauer wrote about this very well.