One of these data points seems to be off the curve.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

Someone is using both definitions of a dirty charlie and living longer because of it.......

taking a quick glance at it appears that there is no correlation between spending and long life. Without clicking your link I have to ask spending on what? health care?

OK, I clicked the link (duh). Yes, health care.

That's what happens when insurance companies control a healthcare system. They are a business and that is for profit. I will also say that the drug companies are also part of the problem and directly conspire with the insurance companies to make profits and control the system.

But, but all those other people have to wait in line to see a doctor! Not like here at all where you try to call their office and can't get in until tomorrow and then you wait in the waiting room for 2 hours and then wait in that little room for another 1/2 hour and then the doctor sees you for 45 seconds and sprints off. I say my $4,500 was well spent. :rolleyes:

Poor lifestyles.

Australia, here I come... higher life expectancy, lower costs AND they speak english, AND it's mostly warm. Why am I freezing my @$$ of in Wisconsin?

Appalling chart.

Using a continuous line for discrete variables...no units on the axis.

If I made that at work I would be called to correct it...

What's wrong with this picture?

It wasn't taken with a dSLR?

Cuba has the biggest bang for the buck. It must be from drinking all that rum, smoking those cigars and munching on the sugar cane.

Why do you hate Amerika?

One of these data points seems to be off the curve.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

The US data point appears to have been supersized. With a double order of fries.

Appalling chart.
Using a continuous line for discrete variables...no units on the axis.
If I made that at work I would be called to correct it...

I would've failed an econ exam if I produced that. The only thing worse than that would be a pie chart.

The study may include some interesting data, but it's hard to tell what that is from the above.

I'm guessing that the point is, "the US spends more per capita on health care relative to life expecancy than other developed countries."

I also want to move to Andorra.

I'm guessing that the point is, "the US spends more per capita on health care relative to life expecancy than other developed countries."

I'm pretty sure this a well-established fact. The interesting question is why?

I can think of several reasons relatively speaking, all of which probably contribute:

1) We are simply unhealthy (too fat, too little exercise)
2) Our health system misses or provides inefficient medical care to too many people (e.g. people who use the ER as their family doctor!).
3) Our litigious society has two influences that drive up cost, many unnecessary tests and costly malpractice insurance.

I don't get why the chart is so appalling. It seems to be quite clear in what it shows... an ordering of countries from greatest to lowest life expectancy with the discrete amounts they each spend per capita on health care. The continuous line functions to highlight the discrete variables, which otherwise could get lost relative to the ordered ones. What would be the proper graph technique to plot the two data sets (spending and life expectancy) while also identifying the countries? If there's profound insight and wisdom about graphing, let's hear it.

It's Monaco for me! Yowzaa! Cheap healthcare, long life expectancy and the Chicas!

That's what happens when insurance companies control a healthcare system. They are a business and that is for profit. I will also say that the drug companies are also part of the problem and directly conspire with the insurance companies to make profits and control the system.

At least we are better than Cuba. Commie bastards!

At least we are better than Cuba. Commie bastards!

by 1% at a 900% plus more cost rate

That's what happens when insurance companies control a healthcare system.

I think this is somewhat of a myth or at least it is not the whole story. Medicare and medicaid in large part drive our healthcare system as they cover lots of people (more than any single private insurer?) and my understanding is insurance companies often fall in line with their payment guidelines.

There are even occasions when stats that support the quality of the US private health system (e.g. high numbers of joint replacements for seniors) are actually driven by our "socialized" medical programs.

by 1% at a 900% plus more cost rate

Is this a great country, or what?

but then you'd have to get those funky antennae

but then you'd have to get those funky antennae


Captain Kirk hit it...

I think this is somewhat of a myth or at least it is not the whole story. Medicare and medicaid in large part drive our healthcare system as they cover lots of people (more than any single private insurer?) and my understanding is insurance companies often fall in line with their payment guidelines.

There are even occasions when stats that support the quality of the US private health system (e.g. high numbers of joint replacements for seniors) are actually driven by our "socialized" medical programs.

Here is a link below that compares Aetna health insurance company's stock price to the S&P 500's typical average over the last ten years. You will see @ 600% increase in value for Aetna as compared to about 7% with the SP500. Try the comparison with any large insurance company to a typical stock index. You will see staggering differences. I see the insurance companies raising rates and raising profits. It is plain and simple.

http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/chart.html?symb=AET&time=10yr&freq=1dy&charts=0&comp=&compidx=SP500%7E3377&ind_compind=&uf=0&lf=1&ma=0&maval=60

I see the insurance companies raising rates and raising profits. It is plain and simple.

Yes, but are health insurance rates figured into health care costs? I assumed not but I may be wrong. I assume that health care costs are how much is paid to doctors, hospitals, etc. for their services. An insurance company could also increase profits by paying less to providers which would actually decrease health care cost, no?

I don't get why the chart is so appalling. It seems to be quite clear in what it shows... an ordering of countries from greatest to lowest life expectancy with the discrete amounts they each spend per capita on health care. The continuous line functions to highlight the discrete variables, which otherwise could get lost relative to the ordered ones. What would be the proper graph technique to plot the two data sets (spending and life expectancy) while also identifying the countries? If there's profound insight and wisdom about graphing, let's hear it.

If forced to use this kind of chart I would have used a large(ish) red dot for each country's spending, instead of the continuous line...which quite wrongly interpolates value between discrete variable. The bar chart for the life expectancy is quite valid though.

If instead of countries the Author had say...height as a variable, the continuous line would have been valid, since height is a continuum. Nationality/Country is not. With the chart above, we are interpolating where there is nothing valid to interpolate.

I would prefer a scatter plot of spending against life expenditure with each country labeled separately. In excel this would make each country a separate series.

I would be interested to hear Hoo's take, he is after all a real Statistician. I am just a Dilettante after all?

/surprised he posted the chart though to be honest.

But, but all those other people have to wait in line to see a doctor! Not like here at all where you try to call their office and can't get in until tomorrow and then you wait in the waiting room for 2 hours and then wait in that little room for another 1/2 hour and then the doctor sees you for 45 seconds and sprints off. I say my $4,500 was well spent. :rolleyes:

or, you wait for six months or a year while your insurance company keeps denying your claim for treatment.

I know I have posted this before, but having spent five months living in Italy this past year I have a little insight on lifestyle. The Italians spend alot of time walking, more than half the adult population smokes, they eat rich foods in small quantities, they spend a good part of their day socializing, they stop for a break from 1-4 pm everyday except Sunday when they completely shut down, they spend alot of time outside, and they place a large emphasis on family. There are very few overweight people in Italy, most have some form of exercise, and they eat small meals. Smoking is the only detriment to their health. Contrast that with the typical American who eats at buffets, fast food, doesn't exercise, has fat kids, and works long hours at stressful jobs. The delta between the US and the rest of the world will probably only get larger.

I'm glad that I don't live in places like Canada or England, where if you have something wrong with your arm, they cut it off, wip you, and charge you a billion dollars.
Thank gods for the USA.

Poor lifestyles.


Yea, it's not like the French and Italians, who eat lots of rich sauces and bread, smoke like chimneys, and drink lots of wine are better than us. Oh. Crap. Well there goes that theory.

If forced to use this kind of chart I would have used a large(ish) red dot for each country's spending, instead of the continuous line...I would prefer a scatter plot of spending against life expenditure with each country labeled separately. In excel this would make each country a separate series.

I would be interested to hear Hoo's take, he is after all a real Statistician. /surprised he posted the chart though to be honest.

Thanks for the explanation., but... ho ho... Saucy diss of Hoo's chartsmanship!

I'm glad that I don't live in places like Canada or England, where if you have something wrong with your arm, they cut it off, wip you, and charge you a billion dollars.
Thank gods for the USA.

Don't forget, they also make you wait in line for 6 years before they'll even consider whipping you and cutting off your arm.

Don't forget, they also make you wait in line for 6 years before they'll even consider whipping you and cutting off your arm.

Actually the real reason health care is do cheap there is, during the 6 year wait your arm gets gangrene and falls off by itself. They don't have to do any cutting and the whipping is free because they whip you with your own arm. Why didn't we think of that?

I work for a French company and I noticed exact same things that you did.
BUT, I also noticed they eat a much smaller portion and hardly any junk food from the fast food restaurant. Another thing, I noticed was that Japan has the highest average life expentancy. I'm guessing that's due to their diet consist of rice, fish and a lots of vegetables....

I know I have posted this before, but having spent five months living in Italy this past year I have a little insight on lifestyle. The Italians spend alot of time walking, more than half the adult population smokes, they eat rich foods in small quantities, they spend a good part of their day socializing, they stop for a break from 1-4 pm everyday except Sunday when they completely shut down, they spend alot of time outside, and they place a large emphasis on family. There are very few overweight people in Italy, most have some form of exercise, and they eat small meals. Smoking is the only detriment to their health. Contrast that with the typical American who eats at buffets, fast food, doesn't exercise, has fat kids, and works long hours at stressful jobs. The delta between the US and the rest of the world will probably only get larger.

exactly. all this anti smoke paranoia and when you look at italy or spain.. no one cares too much about it. health is about the whole lifestyle. siesta. respect for the elders. less cars. less microwave. more real cooking. less individualism. less career driven people. mamas, avuelas, nona, papa...

Yes, but are health insurance rates figured into health care costs? I assumed not but I may be wrong. I assume that health care costs are how much is paid to doctors, hospitals, etc. for their services. An insurance company could also increase profits by paying less to providers which would actually decrease health care cost, no?

I need to research more but, make no mistake, I will find a way to blame this on insurance companies!

The diet and lifestyle are a factor as I posted before. Another major factor is the cross section of people in the US. The US is composed of various ethnic and racial groups. We have a large immigrant population from Mexico (where does Mexico fall in life expectancy?), ethnic groups that live unhealthy lifestyles, what percentage of black males are in prison?, what is their life expectancy after prison? It is unfortunate that this exists, but these groups have to be considered in collecting the data. It still speaks of us as a nation, right or wrong. An interesting data collection would be a comparison of individual states versus other nations. Take that data to determine why our life expectancy is not up to world standards.

None of this addresses the cost of healthcare, it will probably get even higher as our unhealthy fat population ages.