http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/books/review/Ali-t.html?8bu&emc=bu


just what we discussed the other day..

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/books/review/Ali-t.html?8bu&emc=bu


just what we discussed the other day..

and it supports the idea that our own cultural fiber may actually be our biggest weapon against extremism...see the Muslims may not be coming to get you after all.

and it supports the idea that our own cultural fiber may actually be our biggest weapon against extremism...see the Muslims may not be coming to get you after all.

19 mins to read the book, the article, and then arrive at that profound conclusion, and then post it as a reply eh?

and it supports the idea that our own cultural fiber may actually be our biggest weapon against extremism...see the Muslims may not be coming to get you after all.

i will go back to finish reading the article. i agree w/you on this: it's a cultural battle... and for the west to win it will have to lose some of it's self complacency and toughen up culturally. interesting moment.

19 mins to read the book, the article, and then arrive at that profound conclusion, and then post it as a reply eh?
make sense...for once. ????
I read the entire article. soryr if I read faster than you do. that's what hte post was about, right? there was not one mention of "good book" try it out...or..."great read, you should buy it"...
??

my profound conclusion is at least typed in legible, clear, succinct English whereas yours drown on and on and on without ever making a point.....as is Britain I guess.

got anything new to add or do you want to just continue taking personal jabs? I can play, either way.

i will go back to finish reading the article. i agree w/you on this: it's a cultural battle... and for the west to win it will have to lose some of it's self complacency and toughen up culturally. interesting moment.

a "winning" proposition as much as it is an "influencing" proposition. if extremism is truly born out of some innnate protection of itself, then the West will need to take great strides in educating future generations that it is not out to defeat Islam....

that is not currently being done, the old prez. didn't get this when he ordered the armada overseas...our stance there only emboldens their purpose of religious self protection. they're good at it...have been for thousands of years now.

question is how do you convince thousands of pissed off Middle Easterners to just calm the F' down for a minute...? I don't think its accomplished through pointing a gun at them...

If Obama becomes the next president, I'm wondering how his faith will play out on the global stage under the current geopolitical environment...it could be a calming factor for a lot of folks over there, which is potentially what is needed. Right now all they see is an emblem of Christianity attacking them....AGAIN....

a "winning" proposition as much as it is an "influencing" proposition. if extremism is truly born out of some innnate protection of itself, then the West will need to take great strides in educating future generations that it is not out to defeat Islam....

that is not currently being done, the old prez. didn't get this when he ordered the armada overseas...our stance there only emboldens their purpose of religious self protection. they're good at it...have been for thousands of years now.

question is how do you convince thousands of pissed off Middle Easterners to just calm the F' down for a minute...? I don't think its accomplished through pointing a gun at them...

If Obama becomes the next president, I'm wondering how his faith will play out on the global stage under the current geopolitical environment...it could be a calming factor for a lot of folks over there, which is potentially what is needed. Right now all they see is an emblem of Christianity attacking them....AGAIN....

islamic governments have to be convinced to change the message. Guns and bombs can be some assistance there. They are, after all, the tools of their own trade.

islamic governments have to be convinced to change the message. Guns and bombs can be some assistance there. They are, after all, the tools of their own trade.

guns and bombs do not work. has the ME calmed down under the threat of Israeli military action? No. has extremism gone away in Iraq with more guns and bombs. They may eliminate the immediate person, but the killing of one most likely only grows 10 more..his friends, his family, anyone who witnessed the killing, etc.
Miliatry can quell immediate tensions...check points can filter out some weapons...but the message does not change.

the message needs to change...from ME governments, you are correct...but that is only one piece I think. These people have to have something to aspire to...to look forward to..this is apparent in Islamic majority countries that have infrastructure and jobs and health care and education (and all those nasty things those pesky democrats push for in this country)....the violence does not exist to the degree of Islamic countries without those things. education is left up to religious leaders...and guess what they're learning, slick? how to pull a trigger and hate Christian whiteys.

what do you think would happen if the US went to say...Palestine..and openly offered every single person a place to live, a job, and at least a high school education? what do you think would happen?
is that idea naive ideology? probably...but then again its the same basis GWB is working off of...

a "winning" proposition as much as it is an "influencing" proposition. if extremism is truly born out of some innnate protection of itself, then the West will need to take great strides in educating future generations that it is not out to defeat Islam....

that is not currently being done, the old prez. didn't get this when he ordered the armada overseas...our stance there only emboldens their purpose of religious self protection. they're good at it...have been for thousands of years now.

question is how do you convince thousands of pissed off Middle Easterners to just calm the F' down for a minute...? I don't think its accomplished through pointing a gun at them...

If Obama becomes the next president, I'm wondering how his faith will play out on the global stage under the current geopolitical environment...it could be a calming factor for a lot of folks over there, which is potentially what is needed. Right now all they see is an emblem of Christianity attacking them....AGAIN....

i don't get the logic here. mistaken or not the war on iraq has military targets: take out WMD(yeah yeah yeah...i know), terrorists and saddam hussein.
the pres. of the US never said: "let's defeat Islam in Iraq!".
the US were attacked. remember? what should the US do? bend over and sing kumbaya?
if terrorism has support in some countries(i know... pakhistan, not iraq), then the US has all the right to strike at those who support it.

and all this has nothing to do w/ the cultural battle of west x islam.
what we are seeing predates even 9/11... there is a huge situation in Europe where there is one single large comunity of muslims which refuses to acknowledge the culture and secular powers of the nations they are living under.
unlike previous immigration waves of west africans, jewish, chinese etc... which embraced secular and national cultures, the muslim community proudly ignores western values.

there has nothiing to do w/ oil, iraq, bush, gore or the ghost of ronald reagan.

guns and bombs do not work. has the ME calmed down under the threat of Israeli military action? No. has extremism gone away in Iraq with more guns and bombs. They may eliminate the immediate person, but the killing of one most likely only grows 10 more..his friends, his family, anyone who witnessed the killing, etc.
Miliatry can quell immediate tensions...check points can filter out some weapons...but the message does not change.

the message needs to change...from ME governments, you are correct...but that is only one piece I think. These people have to have something to aspire to...to look forward to..this is apparent in Islamic majority countries that have infrastructure and jobs and health care and education (and all those nasty things those pesky democrats push for in this country)....the violence does not exist to the degree of Islamic countries without those things. education is left up to religious leaders...and guess what they're learning, slick? how to pull a trigger and hate Christian whiteys.

what do you think would happen if the US went to say...Palestine..and openly offered every single person a place to live, a job, and at least a high school education? what do you think would happen?
is that idea naive ideology? probably...but then again its the same basis GWB is working off of...

The first step in all the goodies you describe is a strong government that has them as it's goal and is in control of the country. The stability of governments outside Iran are tenuous at best, like living on a powder keg. Most of the turmoil is caused by an ideology, not a hunger for the good life. The Palestinians would accept your offer as long as it were carried out in the new Palestinian capitol of Tel Aviv.

guns and bombs do not work. has the ME calmed down under the threat of Israeli military action? No. has extremism gone away in Iraq with more guns and bombs. They may eliminate the immediate person, but the killing of one most likely only grows 10 more..his friends, his family, anyone who witnessed the killing, etc.
Miliatry can quell immediate tensions...check points can filter out some weapons...but the message does not change.

the message needs to change...from ME governments, you are correct...but that is only one piece I think. These people have to have something to aspire to...to look forward to..this is apparent in Islamic majority countries that have infrastructure and jobs and health care and education (and all those nasty things those pesky democrats push for in this country)....the violence does not exist to the degree of Islamic countries without those things. education is left up to religious leaders...and guess what they're learning, slick? how to pull a trigger and hate Christian whiteys.

what do you think would happen if the US went to say...Palestine..and openly offered every single person a place to live, a job, and at least a high school education? what do you think would happen?
is that idea naive ideology? probably...but then again its the same basis GWB is working off of...

good question: what would happen if the US went to Palestine and gave money for high school education? would Hammas give up on the destruction of Israel?
if the problem is high school education... why the focus on the destruction of israel?
i never saw any arab or fundamentalist radical even talk about the lack of schools or job opportunities. all i hear is .. destruction of israel.

i don't get the logic here. mistaken or not the war on iraq has military targets: take out WMD(yeah yeah yeah...i know), terrorists and saddam hussein.
the pres. of the US never said: "let's defeat Islam in Iraq!".
the US were attacked. remember? what should the US do? bend over and sing kumbaya?
if terrorism has support in some countries(i know... pakhistan, not iraq), then the US has all the right to strike at those who support it.

and all this has nothing to do w/ the cultural battle of west x islam.
what we are seeing predates even 9/11... there is a huge situation in Europe where there is one single large comunity of muslims which refuses to acknowledge the culture and secular powers of the nations they are living under.
unlike previous immigration waves of west africans, jewish, chinese etc... which embraced secular and national cultures, the muslim community proudly ignores western values.

there has nothiing to do w/ oil, iraq, bush, gore or the ghost of ronald reagan.

and please stop spreading the idea that Iraq had something to do with 9/11...its an old, tired, lie. No, the current prez. never said "lets defeat islam"..but I would go as far as to assume that, since Islamists have decreed religious holy war against us, they figure its a religious conflict...brought about by a bunch of whitey Christians...as I said...again.
do you think they've just forgotten about the Crusades?

its also been well, well documented that estimated numbers of terrorists since the Iraq invasion has INCREASED. what do you think drives that? seriously..think larger historic perspective entertwined with the idea from harris's book about protectionism of Islam...

you posted the story...and it DOES adddress the cultural issue of the West vs. Islam...and how the actions of "todays' leaders" (wonder who he's talking about?) grossly underestimated the geopolitical context they choose to start war under.

the point in the story was that Western civilization may in fact be the sole thing that inherently defeats extremism at its core. I was expounding on the idea that it'll take more than that, but an actual believable declaration that the West is not designed to kill Islam...that isn't going to happen with the current mindset of this country's leadership.
(which is why I brought up Obama).

What is going on in Europe is resistance...one culture against the other...only when extreme oppression and lack of "hope" prevail is when violence begins to occur (French riots by young unemployed people who have little to look forward to).

are my points really that hard to digest? this is not about tit for tat 9/11 this or Iraq that or Bush Dick Halliburton....mix that nonsense together with power hungry individuals with resources and a message that fits and you have a perfect garden for growing terrrorism.

The first step in all the goodies you describe is a strong government that has them as it's goal and is in control of the country. The stability of governments outside Iran are tenuous at best, like living on a powder keg. Most of the turmoil is caused by an ideology, not a hunger for the good life. The Palestinians would accept your offer as long as it were carried out in the new Palestinian capitol of Tel Aviv.

is it so bad that an ancient group of people who's ancestors lay claim to the land they believe they are from, want their own state? wouldn't you if you were permanently displaced? I can understand why they're pissed off and frustrated....the world denies them a basic human right...a place to call home. and they're totally unempowered to do anything about it other than fight back in whatever ways they can....
they're so upset they don't see the sanity of throwing rocks at tanks....ever been that upset about something?

good question: what would happen if the US went to Palestine and gave money for high school education? would Hammas give up on the destruction of Israel?
if the problem is high school education... why the focus on the destruction of israel?
i never saw any arab or fundamentalist radical even talk about the lack of schools or job opportunities. all i hear is .. destruction of israel.


could it be they perceive the establishment of Israel some 40 years ago as the reason they are out of work, living between fences, woken up at night by apache helicopters, having to enter checkpoints multiple times a day, harassed, shot at.....
it may or may not be, but the fact is that is the scape goat for their problems...who would you blame if you lived in such conditions? they can't even get Israeli permission to leave half the time...
I'd want Israel dead too. Israel land was simply taken from them...and none of the surrounding governments stepped in to help. Syria doesn't want them. Lebanon doesn't want Palestinians in their borders. Egypt? Nope.
Hamas was voted is as they were perceived to be a strong force against Israel..they also promised a LOT of stuff they have no delivered on. Hamas will be voted out in the next election...unless they actually realize there are other ways to accomplish their goals.

and please stop spreading the idea that Iraq had something to do with 9/11...its an old, tired, lie. No, the current prez. never said "lets defeat islam"..but I would go as far as to assume that, since Islamists have decreed religious holy war against us, they figure its a religious conflict...brought about by a bunch of whitey Christians...as I said...again.
do you think they've just forgotten about the Crusades?

its also been well, well documented that estimated numbers of terrorists since the Iraq invasion has INCREASED. what do you think drives that? seriously..think larger historic perspective entertwined with the idea from harris's book about protectionism of Islam...

you posted the story...and it DOES adddress the cultural issue of the West vs. Islam...and how the actions of "todays' leaders" (wonder who he's talking about?) grossly underestimated the geopolitical context they choose to start war under.

the point in the story was that Western civilization may in fact be the sole thing that inherently defeats extremism at its core. I was expounding on the idea that it'll take more than that, but an actual believable declaration that the West is not designed to kill Islam...that isn't going to happen with the current mindset of this country's leadership.
(which is why I brought up Obama).

What is going on in Europe is resistance...one culture against the other...only when extreme oppression and lack of "hope" prevail is when violence begins to occur (French riots by young unemployed people who have little to look forward to).

are my points really that hard to digest? this is not about tit for tat 9/11 this or Iraq that or Bush Dick Halliburton....mix that nonsense together with power hungry individuals with resources and a message that fits and you have a perfect garden for growing terrrorism.

that's funny... we must ignore terrorist attacks when talking about iraq but at the same time the crusades were so unfair that these people are justified in bombing everyhting.. just out of hurt religious pride.
isn't it time already to get over with the middle ages? if someone can't think straight and decide the christians in 1300s are different from those in new york city now than there is no one to reason with.

btw... if the problem is christianity why the hatred towards the jewish? if there is ever a religiosity persecuted by christians it's the jewish... not muslims. shouldn't they love the poor jewsih who burned in christian progroms centuries after the crusades?

could it be they perceive the establishment of Israel some 40 years ago as the reason they are out of work, living between fences, woken up at night by apache helicopters, having to enter checkpoints multiple times a day, harassed, shot at.....
it may or may not be, but the fact is that is the scape goat for their problems...who would you blame if you lived in such conditions? they can't even get Israeli permission to leave half the time...
I'd want Israel dead too. Israel land was simply taken from them...and none of the surrounding governments stepped in to help. Syria doesn't want them. Lebanon doesn't want Palestinians in their borders. Egypt? Nope.
Hamas was voted is as they were perceived to be a strong force against Israel..they also promised a LOT of stuff they have no delivered on. Hamas will be voted out in the next election...unless they actually realize there are other ways to accomplish their goals.

so first they bomb israel because it existed. then israel built fences and check points to avoid it. there is no plan other than bomb israel.
so what about the high schools? it won't solve anything.
forget it.


if you want israel dead why would the US, it's ally give you a high school? go build one yourself.

is it so bad that an ancient group of people who's ancestors lay claim to the land they believe they are from, want their own state? wouldn't you if you were permanently displaced? I can understand why they're pissed off and frustrated....the world denies them a basic human right...a place to call home. and they're totally unempowered to do anything about it other than fight back in whatever ways they can....
they're so upset they don't see the sanity of throwing rocks at tanks....ever been that upset about something?

You are buying the story line, there could have been a Palestinian homeland in the Carter adminstration if that had been the goal. What they want is no more Israel and should that take place, there will be no more lots of stuff and folks, Israel has nukes and will use them push comes to shove. Every time anything looks promising, it ain't rocks that get thrown into crowded markets or shopping malls.

is it so bad that an ancient group of people who's ancestors lay claim to the land they believe they are from, want their own state? wouldn't you if you were permanently displaced? I can understand why they're pissed off and frustrated....the world denies them a basic human right...a place to call home. and they're totally unempowered to do anything about it other than fight back in whatever ways they can....
they're so upset they don't see the sanity of throwing rocks at tanks....ever been that upset about something?

the jewish people had no home for thousandsa of years. instead of blaming and bombing everyone into oblivion.. we got ourselves a life.
maybe cause we didn't have Saudi and Syrian daddies to back up.

i don't buy this misery cr@p. my grandparents lived in hunger in central europe. their parents and relatives were hunted down, burned and persecuted for centuries. instead of waging war on christianity and burning down innocents they helped build our civilization. israel represents them. not the injustice of the palestinians.

The reviewer, having grown up a Muslim, agrees with the author of the book's stern warnings that the Muslim diaspora settling in Europe, not having very successfully integrated into their host cultures, will try to take over, Muslimize Holland, France, Germany, the UK, through the democratic process. So were the fears of Protestants in the US when Irish Catholics settled in NY, or Polish Catholics in many mid-western cities, or Italians Catholics, ad infinitum.

How about the fears of whites in the Southern US when the slaves were freed and actually gained political offices. That's when the KKK was ascendant, and segregation laws were written. Of course the blacks were as completely American and Christian as the whites. There existed no ideological, philosophical or religious differences. Essentially, their expectations were the same.

The concept of inidividuality is both the virtue and curse of Western civilization. Each immigrant group bands strongly together for survival. Group-think becomes ascendant and individuality is repressed. Religion codifies that collective sense. This has been true of probably all tribal societies for centuries, as well as immigrant groups. Individuality weakens the solidarity of the group, but when threats emerge from outside, individuality is forgotten and the collective will takes over.

The reviewer fails to note that the Muslim settlers in Europe don't constitute a unified political group, any more than the citizens of Iraq, or for that matter most of the other places people live who espouse the Muslim religion. There's as much variation as in Christianity. So I think the concept of Western cultures being taken over by fanatical Muslim fundamentalists is nonsense.

This is all you need to know...
From the Koran...according to them, the United States is a country of non believers...

[61.4] Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.
[39.71] And those who disbelieve shall be driven to hell in companies; until, when they come to it, its doors shall be opened, and the keepers of it shall say to them: Did not there come to you apostles from among you reciting to you the communications of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say: Yea! But the sentence of punishment was due against the unbelievers.
[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.11] That is because Allah is the Protector of those who believe, and because the unbelievers shall have no protector for them.[47.12] Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts 47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.

is it so bad that an ancient group of people who's ancestors lay claim to the land they believe they are from, want their own state? wouldn't you if you were permanently displaced? I can understand why they're pissed off and frustrated....the world denies them a basic human right...a place to call home. and they're totally unempowered to do anything about it other than fight back in whatever ways they can....
they're so upset they don't see the sanity of throwing rocks at tanks....ever been that upset about something?

Don't get caught up in the hype. As sad as the plight of th palestinians is, don't let revisionist history infuence your more sensitive side. That part of the world has seen many people come and go. The Canaanites, Philistines, Samaritans, Nabataeans, Greeks, Romans, Muslims and Christians, etc , etc. That area was administered by the Egyptions. It has been proven that the Jews also lived amongst all of these other tribes, within the city states.

A lot of people can lay claim to that chunk of earth. The Israelis (god bless those stubborn, passionate people) chose to make a stand and claim a country. Not an unusual thing in human history.

It amazes me that everyone looks to the United States to "save" the palestinian people from their social despair. Pay for schools? better electricity? hogwash. What about all of their muslim "brothers" in Kuwait, UAE, Quatar,etc...they are drowning in the money. Why can't they start the ME version of Habitat for Humanity? It's sad. The palestinians are used as political fire by many governments and extremist groups in the ME.. Sure, the US must take the lead in order to achieve political success, That will only happen when Hamas decides they can play nice with Israel. Israel has made some huge concessions in the past. They have also been stubborn on others.

Israel lives in a tough neighborhood, sometimes they have to be tough.

What is going on in Europe is resistance...one culture against the other...only when extreme oppression and lack of "hope" prevail is when violence begins to occur (French riots by young unemployed people who have little to look forward to).


You totally misunderstand the issue.

As mentioned, this is not about Bush, 9/11, Iraq, Israel, whatever...the core of the issue is a cultural conflict...one which you are happy to view from relativistic eyes...such is your confidence in the virtues of free speech, individual rights, womens rights, separation of church and state, multiculturalism, and reason.

You see (radical) Islam as a rational reaction to (supposed) Western transgressions (historical and recent). Antagonizer and Antagonist.

It is not rational, in fact (radical) Islam is counter to reason, and it is an ideology offering itself as an alternative to the Western values of the enlightenment...an alternative against modernity
.
The problem is that in the West most people and Politicians, are so lacking in insight that they simplify view Islam through the lens of secular relativism...they see it as another flavor of contemporary Christianity. It is not, since it has not yet been weakened of its vigor like Christianity was due to the enlightenment...it has not yet been defeated by the 'hammer blows' of modernity, of reason.

If it was not Israel, or Iraq, or the Crusades, the Radicals would be finding other 'reasons' to despise the West. It is just a way to justify ideological imperialism.

So what we have is a highly aggressive meme...a self-perpetuating system of values...which is able to convince young men to sacrifice their lives for its own expansion, and just as dangerously, convince the mediocre that it should quite reasonable have a say in politics and morality.

How to weaken and defeat that ideology/culture is the question.

I suggest reading the book Imperial Hubris.

Essentially, what it all boils down to is that if we want to be left alone by the terrorists, we need to change our foreign policies, and stop messing with Muslim countries and trying to influence what they do, and stop our inherent support of Israel. But those things won't happen, the author argues, so we can expect to have another terrorist attack on our soil in the near future. And no, it's not because they hate our way of life, or that they hate our freedom, it's not about that at all, it's about our foreign policies.

Of course the blacks were as completely American and Christian as the whites. There existed no ideological, philosophical or religious differences. Essentially, their expectations were the same.



of course your post does not derive form an actual, contemporary experience in europe.

.only when extreme oppression and lack of "hope" prevail is when violence begins to occur.


BS. i live in the 3rd world.
this is just romantic academic leftist rhethoric. it has nothing to do w/ political social reality.

it tells more of a maladjusted neurotic intelectuality which is paranoid of becoming irrelevant..... since it's incapable of acting.
it's an old tired Hamlet complex.

I suggest reading the book Imperial Hubris.

Essentially, what it all boils down to is that if we want to be left alone by the terrorists, we need to change our foreign policies, and stop messing with Muslim countries and trying to influence what they do, and stop our inherent support of Israel. But those things won't happen, the author argues, so we can expect to have another terrorist attack on our soil in the near future. And no, it's not because they hate our way of life, or that they hate our freedom, it's not about that at all, it's about our foreign policies.

Appeasement will be the West's undoing.

Going on your opinion, the author solely sees radical Islam as a military phenomenon, reactive to Western 'transgressions'...and as mentioned therefore totally misunderstands (non-secular) Islam as a cultural phenomenon.

It is an extremely arrogant ideological position, this idea of appeasement. It assumes that secular religion (a state of mind where one is respectful of other religions...tolerant...aware of doubts) is the only universal possibility. The 'radicals' do not really know their own minds after all? They only talk of caliphate because they are angry and hurt victims of Western Imperialism...they are secularists inside?! How could anyone want to bring modernity down? It is a natural state of society, maybe demanded by history? Left = secret historicists?? Absurd.

I suggest reading the book Imperial Hubris.

Essentially, what it all boils down to is that if we want to be left alone by the terrorists, we need to change our foreign policies, and stop messing with Muslim countries and trying to influence what they do, and stop our inherent support of Israel. But those things won't happen, the author argues, so we can expect to have another terrorist attack on our soil in the near future. And no, it's not because they hate our way of life, or that they hate our freedom, it's not about that at all, it's about our foreign policies.

BS. this is just the politics of guilt. it has no place in the contemporary world. this is something from the 50s, outdated, irrelevant, impotent, weak.. lacking strength and courage. we need to be warriors.

"stop messing w/ the muslim countries". and do what? play chess while being blackmailed into submission by terror?

here we are, writting in english. the language of world domination. from a computer. at the height of consumer power... how do you think we got there? by messing w/ the entire world. by being stronger, smarter. that's how it works. not by adopting some contrived attitude of guilt and bending over.

guilt... it's disgusting. instead of fighting for freedom just rehash the same old impotent leftist cliches.

You totally misunderstand the issue.

As mentioned, this is not about Bush, 9/11, Iraq, Israel, whatever...the core of the issue is a cultural conflict...one which you are happy to view from relativistic eyes...such is your confidence in the virtues of free speech, individual rights, womens rights, separation of church and state, multiculturalism, and reason.

You see (radical) Islam as a rational reaction to (supposed) Western transgressions (historical and recent). Antagonizer and Antagonist.

It is not rational, in fact (radical) Islam is counter to reason, and it is an ideology offering itself as an alternative to the Western values of the enlightenment...an alternative against modernity
.
The problem is that in the West most people and Politicians, are so lacking in insight that they simplify view Islam through the lens of secular relativism...they see it as another flavor of contemporary Christianity. It is not, since it has not yet been weakened of its vigor like Christianity was due to the enlightenment...it has not yet been defeated by the 'hammer blows' of modernity, of reason.

If it was not Israel, or Iraq, or the Crusades, the Radicals would be finding other 'reasons' to despise the West. It is just a way to justify ideological imperialism.

So what we have is a highly aggressive meme...a self-perpetuating system of values...which is able to convince young men to sacrifice their lives for its own expansion, and just as dangerously, convince the mediocre that it should quite reasonable have a say in politics and morality.

How to weaken and defeat that ideology/culture is the question.



I agree with this completely.

I agree with this completely.

yup. how can we even try to justify the aggression towards us ... w/ guilt from the CRUSADES? someone hits you... you hit back.
there is no need to embrace aspects of the west you don't concur with to resist the aggrsssion... no need to become a KKK or a reactionary. just be yourself.. sovereign in your individuality. don't accept the lame, dishonest justifications from those morons.

yup. how can we even try to justify the aggression towards us ... w/ guilt from the CRUSADES? someone hits you... you hit back.
there is no need to embrace aspects of the west you don't concur with to resist the aggrsssion... no need to become a KKK or a reactionary. just be yourself.. sovereign in your individuality. don't accept the lame, dishonest justifications from those morons.


PLUS.... if you look at what started the Crusades..... it was a call for support against Muslim aggression in the Holy Land. The Crusaders were't all that nice about how they dealt with that aggression but they didn't just go there for no reason. I do believe that our meddling in the affairs of those nations is making things worse but it's not the root cause and never has been.


Liberal democracy has defeated Christianity and Judaism. It can defeat Islam as well IF we stay true to its principles. In fact, we (The West) have only lost ground when we've deviated from those principles.

PLUS.... if you look at what started the Crusades..... it was a call for support against Muslim aggression in the Holy Land. The Crusaders were't all that nice about how they dealt with that aggression but they didn't just go there for no reason. I do believe that our meddling in the affairs of those nations is making things worse but it's not the root cause and never has been.


Liberal democracy has defeated Christianity and Judaism. It can defeat Islam as well IF we stay true to its principles. In fact, we (The West) have only lost ground when we've deviated from those principles.

liberal democracy defeated judaism? when?:D

of course your post does not derive form an actual, contemporary experience in europe.

it derives from my ancestors' experiences in the US during the 20th Century, the latter half of which I was there.

The question seems to be: Will these Muslim settlers in European countries and to a much lesser extent, the US, eventually, in one or two generations, try to take over and establish authoritarian theocratic governments, or will the next generation or two gradually forget their heritage and adapt to Western ways. It seems obvious to me the latter will happen. It always has in past history.

And talk about guilt. That's what seems to be driving the Islamic fundamentalists. There's a fair amount driving their Christian counterparts. The saving grace of Christianity is that this guilt (for committing sinful acts--or thoughts!) can be forgiven if one is ":born again" as a true believer. The concept in Islam of Allah "protecting" believers is the same.

I'll take a wild guess that the several billion peace loving Muslims around the world believe they don't need to strap bombs on their chests and blow themselves up to prove their faith. I'll also assert, from my limited conversations with Muslim immigrants, that they come here to make their lives better, not to convert "non-believers" to Islam.

it derives from my ancestors' experiences in the US during the 20th Century, the latter half of which I was there.

The question seems to be: Will these Muslim settlers in European countries and to a much lesser extent, the US, eventually, in one or two generations, try to take over and establish authoritarian theocratic governments, or will the next generation or two gradually forget their heritage and adapt to Western ways. It seems obvious to me the latter will happen. It always has in past history..

it's the second or 3rd generation already and it's getting worse. history is about circumstance... not an eternal repetition of action/ reaction.

And talk about guilt. That's what seems to be driving the Islamic fundamentalists. There's a fair amount driving their Christian counterparts. The saving grace of Christianity is that this guilt (for committing sinful acts--or thoughts!) can be forgiven if one is ":born again" as a true believer. The concept in Islam of Allah "protecting" believers is the same..[/QUOTE]

i don't know about their guilt but invoking our guilt when we are bombed and threatenned seems stupid.

I'll take a wild guess that the several billion peace loving Muslims around the world believe they don't need to strap bombs on their chests and blow themselves up to prove their faith. I'll also assert, from my limited conversations with Muslim immigrants, that they come here to make their lives better, not to convert "non-believers" to Islam.[/QUOTE]

are the peacefull muslims able to overthrow it's agressive leaders/ factions/ authorities? has any of their youngsters risked his comunity status and actually fought the fundamentalists direction?

it's the second or 3rd generation already and it's getting worse. history is about circumstance... not an eternal repetition of action/ reaction.

i don't know about their guilt but invoking our guilt when we are bombed and threatenned seems stupid.

are the peacefull muslims able to overthrow it's agressive leaders/ factions/ authorities? has any of their youngsters risked his comunity status and actually fought the fundamentalists direction?

The problems the 2nd or 3rd generation are having for example in France, are not the result of religion but economics. Religion provides spiritual comfort when suffering through stressful times. Fixing the problem lessens the appeal of religious fanaticism.

Seeing the problem for what it is invokes guilt only in the guilty. I don't see the English, French or German political leaders expressing guilt. One does not have to feel guilt to have compassion for suffering, nor to find non-violent solutions for social problems.

Young people are free and floating, unestablished, insecure. They adopt radical philosophies and politics. They want change. They want justice. Youth is by nature liberal, not conservative. So its' not surprising there are no reactionary groups fighting fundamentalist radicals. When youth faces reality, they find ways to compromise their values to work with what life offers them--to eat.

My take is that the overwhelming majority in Islamic communities are opposed to radical fundamentalist terrorism. Opposition to clerical leaders is becoming evident in Iran, too, especially among its youth.

When youth faces reality, they find ways to compromise their values to work with what life offers them--to eat.

A compromise between secularism and Islam is the end the secularism.


My take is that the overwhelming majority in Islamic communities are opposed to radical fundamentalist terrorism. Opposition to clerical leaders is becoming evident in Iran, too, especially among its youth.

How opposed are they to elements of Islamic law being instituted into the host countries statute books?

A compromise between secularism and Islam is the end the secularism.



How opposed are they to elements of Islamic law being instituted into the host countries statute books?

Where is this happening?

A compromise between secularism and Islam is the end the secularism.



How opposed are they to elements of Islamic law being instituted into the host countries statute books?

Sounds like democracy at work..

You continually rail against Islam.....yet I've never read a post where you offered a solution.

So how about you pretend you are king of the world......and provide a detailed solution to what you see as such a significant issue (No judgement implied). It would set the context for responding to your posts in the future.

Actually looking forward to it.

Len

I suggest reading the book Imperial Hubris.

Essentially, what it all boils down to is that if we want to be left alone by the terrorists, we need to change our foreign policies, and stop messing with Muslim countries and trying to influence what they do, and stop our inherent support of Israel. But those things won't happen, the author argues, so we can expect to have another terrorist attack on our soil in the near future. And no, it's not because they hate our way of life, or that they hate our freedom, it's not about that at all, it's about our foreign policies.

We should stop trying to support free people and simply have a hands off approach to the bloody spread if this idology? THEN we wil be safe? For how long. There was no outcry or retalliation from Muslims when we stepped in to stop the murder and genocide of Muslims in Bosnia. They were happy to have our support against the Soviets in Afghanistan. It's only when they are the agressive force and the murderers that we should step back?

Sounds like democracy at work..

You continually rail against Islam.....yet I've never read a post where you offered a solution.

So how about you pretend you are king of the world......and provide a detailed solution to what you see as such a significant issue (No judgement implied). It would set the context for responding to your posts in the future.

Actually looking forward to it.

Len

Democracy at work was what gave the National Socialists power (sorry to Godwin but it had to be said)...it certainly was not a victory for democracy though...in fact it killed it.

Compromise between a secular state and religion is not possible...if you think it is you do not know what you are talking about. Once a secular state starts issuing this or that law (morality) based upon the wishes of a particular religion, it is no longer a secular state for all religions, but one in which not all religions are treated the same.

Now a host country being changed in the way of cultural habits, ways, art, etc by Islam (as non-political actor) is different (if that is what you mean by 'compromise'), although one may argue that is an ethnic thing. That is different, no one is saying Islam should be banned from the open society.

Read the other thread. We talked about education as (part) solution.

cause the mooslims are coming

in regards to Godwin: didn't secular democracy win out in the long run?

hasn't secular democracy defeated the Eastern Bloc?

saw a really fascinating show on PBS the other night. a documentary about the amazingly high numbers of rhinoplasty in Iran. the youth over there, I tell ya

So what we have is a highly aggressive meme...a self-perpetuating system of values...which is able to convince young men to sacrifice their lives for its own expansion, and just as dangerously, convince the mediocre that it should quite reasonable have a say in politics and morality.

How to weaken and defeat that ideology/culture is the question.

I think this is an apt description for radical Christianity also.

Ken B, I have to disagree with your statement about liberal democracy defeating Judaism. I think one of the points Colker was making, and I could be wrong, was that Judaism hasn't set itself up to be defeated. They've never had a siege mentality, even though they've reasonably had every right to adopt this way of thinking at many times. I could be wrong here, but it seems that the extremist elements of Judaism haven't held sway, as is the case with Islam and Christianity at times.

The frightening idea presented in the book seems to be that Islam is inextricably intertwined with extremism, with no tolerance of other faiths..

We should stop trying to support free people and simply have a hands off approach to the bloody spread if this idology? THEN we wil be safe? For how long. There was no outcry or retalliation from Muslims when we stepped in to stop the murder and genocide of Muslims in Bosnia. They were happy to have our support against the Soviets in Afghanistan. It's only when they are the agressive force and the murderers that we should step back?

I suggest you read the book, since the guy who wrote it knows a whole lot more about jihad and terrorism that I ever will, and you guys ever will. It's not about appeasement, it's about understanding why they want to kill Americans and our allies, and from reading the responses, you probably still don't understand why the want to get us. Understanding why can put a stop to the activity of it.

They were happy to have our support against the Soviets only because they wanted the infidels gone from their country. Again, read the book. The author addresses WHY the mujahadein accepted help from the US in this case, but they were not beholden to what we wanted done, and they still pretty much did what they wanted to do.

Jihad has nothing to do with our ways of life, it has to do with driving who they consider infidels from the Muslim countries. If we ignore the real reasons behind jihad and why we were, and probably will be attacked, we won't be able to stop it. I'm just tired of hearing the same old rhetoric that they hate us for who we are, and not WHAT we have done and WHO we support.

Again, read the book, it does provide some pretty good insight that a lot of people have missed, including our leaders in the US.

Sounds like democracy at work..

You continually rail against Islam.....yet I've never read a post where you offered a solution.

So how about you pretend you are king of the world......and provide a detailed solution to what you see as such a significant issue (No judgement implied). It would set the context for responding to your posts in the future.

Actually looking forward to it.

Len

Nice call....

Jihad has nothing to do with our ways of life, it has to do with driving who they consider infidels from the Muslim countries. I

Really? You are an expert on Jihad are you?

Consider why these countries are Muslim...it has nothing to do with ethnicity, it is because they were conquered either militarily or culturally or both.

The leftish appeasers just do not perceive the historical context. We may have renounced cultural imperialism...but that does not mean that Islam has...in fact it has done no such thing...it only appears so, due to its lack of power over the last few hundred years. In fact the spread of Islam into Europe was only halted through force of arms.

saw a really fascinating show on PBS the other night. a documentary about the amazingly high numbers of rhinoplasty in Iran. the youth over there, I tell ya

If you want to use plastic surgery as an index of intellectual, religious, and political freedom then that is your prerogative...just don't expect us to stifle our laughter.

I think this is an apt description for radical Christianity also.

Ken B, I have to disagree with your statement about liberal democracy defeating Judaism. I think one of the points Colker was making, and I could be wrong, was that Judaism hasn't set itself up to be defeated. They've never had a siege mentality, even though they've reasonably had every right to adopt this way of thinking at many times. I could be wrong here, but it seems that the extremist elements of Judaism haven't held sway, as is the case with Islam and Christianity at times.

The frightening idea presented in the book seems to be that Islam is inextricably intertwined with extremism, with no tolerance of other faiths..


By defeat I mean defeat in terms of secular government. By and large and even for the most part in Israel, the religious state has been "defeated" by secular liberal democracy. Nor do I mean it as a negative, although it sounds that way.

There is most definitely a culture war going on right now. No faith is tolerant of others in the absence of liberal democracy. Rydster and Colker are both making some good points.

By defeat I mean defeat in terms of secular government. By and large and even for the most part in Israel, the religious state has been "defeated" by secular liberal democracy. Nor do I mean it as a negative, although it sounds that way.

There is most definitely a culture war going on right now. No faith is tolerant of others in the absence of liberal democracy. Rydster and Colker are both making some good points.

and even the remaining religious aspect of the state in israel is it's achilles heel IMHO. the secular founding fathers like Ben Gurion did not imagine a population of jewish fundamentalists making claims of a biblical israel. most of the land dispute in the territories is justified by the Bible and..well. it complicates things.

I think this is an apt description for radical Christianity also.

Ken B, I have to disagree with your statement about liberal democracy defeating Judaism. I think one of the points Colker was making, and I could be wrong, was that Judaism hasn't set itself up to be defeated. They've never had a siege mentality, even though they've reasonably had every right to adopt this way of thinking at many times. I could be wrong here, but it seems that the extremist elements of Judaism haven't held sway, as is the case with Islam and Christianity at times.

The frightening idea presented in the book seems to be that Islam is inextricably intertwined with extremism, with no tolerance of other faiths..

christianity and judaism have gone through the secular stage where you can doubt religious truth without losing your christian and jewish identity.
the urban contemporary new york/chicago/ LA jewish is absolutely secular. his views are more influenced by marxism and psychology than the neighbourhood rabbi. those jewish living under a strict bible code are an eccentricity and even they recognize and respect the state secular law.
the same can be said of christianity. religion on the judeo christian tradition became an almost subjective, personal, intimate choice. w/ islam all the culture and law fall on the lap of religious authorities. they have huge influence on Iran, the richest, most sophiticated of islamic countries. in afhganistan the authorities bombed down the statues of Buddah, protected under the UN as humanity legacy just because the Khoran condems the representation of the human body.
and the trouble is Islamic ethos is made of machismo, conquest and submission. the idea of cohexisting is debated by us.. not them. they believe themselves morally superior while we question morality all the time and view the world politically.

Read the other thread. We talked about education as (part) solution.

Got to be more specific than that......there are a lot of threads on this board.

I'm trying to understand what you are advocating in these threads....what it is you want the rest of the world to do. It's unclear from the posts I've read, and the absence of clarity opens your position up to some pretty extereme interpretations.

Len

Got to be more specific than that......there are a lot of threads on this board.

I'm trying to understand what you are advocating in these threads....what it is you want the rest of the world to do. It's unclear from the posts I've read, and the absence of clarity opens your position up to some pretty extereme interpretations.

Len

here:http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1348585#post1348585

on the education aspect.

I suggest you read the book, since the guy who wrote it knows a whole lot more about jihad and terrorism that I ever will, and you guys ever will. It's not about appeasement, it's about understanding why they want to kill Americans and our allies, and from reading the responses, you probably still don't understand why the want to get us. Understanding why can put a stop to the activity of it.

They were happy to have our support against the Soviets only because they wanted the infidels gone from their country. Again, read the book. The author addresses WHY the mujahadein accepted help from the US in this case, but they were not beholden to what we wanted done, and they still pretty much did what they wanted to do.

Jihad has nothing to do with our ways of life, it has to do with driving who they consider infidels from the Muslim countries. If we ignore the real reasons behind jihad and why we were, and probably will be attacked, we won't be able to stop it. I'm just tired of hearing the same old rhetoric that they hate us for who we are, and not WHAT we have done and WHO we support.

Again, read the book, it does provide some pretty good insight that a lot of people have missed, including our leaders in the US.

Fair enough. The idealistic monologue that preaches just ignoring the bloody conflict that rages in that area of the world will make us better human beings and a safer world is just as tiresome. The idea that we brought it all on ourselves is not only ridiculous but doesn't take into consideration that we have legitamate regional interests and friends. I didn't tell you they hate us for who we are, I believe that they hate us because we are in the way. There are always analytical stories and books to demonstrate the ignorance of various adminstrations and it is hard to believe that this wealth of information has completely escaped those in charge while we who are simply onlookers are so enlightened by it all. Those in charge pursue the interests of this country and regardless of how some see it as corporate control, corporations ARE the driving business interests of this country as well as most prosperous nations. ALL governments work for those interests and it is not inherently immoral or wrong headed to do so. We have a responsibility to work diplomatically to come to terms with governments in countries and regions in which we have interests. We have the added responsibility to use ameican military forces to insure that our interests and rights are secure and to respond to military or paramilitary attacks on those interests.

If you want to use plastic surgery as an index of intellectual, religious, and political freedom then that is your prerogative...just don't expect us to stifle our laughter.

I don't think using plastic surgery as an indice is that far off.

How many conservatives in the 60's in the US had hair down to the middle of their backs?

t's unclear from the posts I've read, and the absence of clarity opens your position up to some pretty extereme interpretations.

Len

It open up nothing of the kind, not interpretation, you mean solutions, and if you are thinking of going down atp's route of absurd Godwins then that is you prerogative...just leave your credibility at the door.

Like I said read the other post.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=117127

How many conservatives in the 60's in the US had hair down to the middle of their backs?

I'll let Snake answer that. :)

and even the remaining religious aspect of the state in israel is it's achilles heel IMHO. the secular founding fathers like Ben Gurion did not imagine a population of jewish fundamentalists making claims of a biblical israel. most of the land dispute in the territories is justified by the Bible and..well. it complicates things.


We have the same Achilles heel here in the US. There will always be groups of fundamentalists who cause problems. So long as we stick to the principles of liberal democracy, the fundies can't win. OBL and those like him know this and use fear to get the weak minded amongst us to cast those principles aside. They've been successful over the past 7 years but I'm confident that the long term trend towards state secularism will continue.

I'll let Snake answer that. :)

Stoopid, subversive hippies. :)

It open up nothing of the kind, not interpretation, you mean solutions, and if you are thinking of going down atp's route of absurd Godwins then that is you prerogative...just leave your credibility at the door.

Like I said read the other post.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=117127

So I get this right........secularize education completely including in privatly funded schools and your comfortable? No other steps need to be taken.

Len

So what we have is a highly aggressive meme...a self-perpetuating system of values...which is able to convince young men to sacrifice their lives for its own expansion, and just as dangerously, convince the mediocre that it should quite reasonable have a say in politics and morality.


I thought he was talking about Democracy at first.

By the way, we radicals of the 60s were right about civil rights and Vietnam. We are right about Iraq and Bush too. Thousands dead for nothing, gas over $3, the housing market on the skids, the country on the brink of recession. Yeah, the moron and all his moron followers have done a great job.

So I get this right........secularize education completely including in privatly funded schools and your comfortable? No other steps need to be taken.

Len

yes. it can be done and it's highly effective. the school curriculum should be owned by the state.

schools may teach as much religious as they want though it counts nil in approval points while science, literature and philosophy would be mandatory.

then we wait for people decide on which cultural aspects they want to folllow.

So I get this right........secularize education completely including in privatly funded schools and your comfortable? No other steps need to be taken.

Len

That is something I have suggested, but it is probably not total...

I am not sure what you are implying.

I thought he was talking about Democracy at first.


Democracy is superior.

That is something I have suggested, but it is probably not total...

I am not sure what you are implying.

Not implying anything...I'm really curious as, since this is so important an issue, you have given it more thought than I.

So assuming this education change you envision was implemented, what do we do between now and 15 years from now when our children would be "educated"?

What else is necessary to reduce the risk of radical islam?

Len

Not implying anything...I'm really curious as, since this is so important an issue, you have given it more thought than I.

So assuming this education change you envision was implemented, what do we do between now and 15 years from now when our children would be "educated"?

What else is necessary to reduce the risk of radical islam?

Len

uphold the law... don't let it become bastardized by appeasing to "special muslim needs". this and a strict control of school's curriculum will set the islamic diaspora on fire.

cause the mooslims are coming

in regards to Godwin: didn't secular democracy win out in the long run?

hasn't secular democracy defeated the Eastern Bloc?


tell that to Paris Dakkar Rally people.
the rally has been cancell due to terrorist threats.

uphold the law... don't let it become bastardized by appeasing to "special muslim needs". this and a strict control of school's curriculum will set the islamic diaspora on fire.

ok, but according to the review of the book that started this all, the book states that islam itself is by its nature radical.


and I will say that the more than a couple Israelis I've met lately are not living in fear of radical Islam, which appears to be the opposite of what the current US regime and radical right are trying to instill in it's citizens.

ok, but according to the review of the book that started this all, the book states that islam itself is by its nature radical.


and I will say that the more than a couple Israelis I've met lately are not living in fear of radical Islam, which appears to be the opposite of what the current US regime and radical right are trying to instill in it's citizens.

the israelis live a very peculiar existence. w/them it's all or nothing.. so there is a tighter hand w/ no condescension and no appeasement. the lines are clear and threats are real. the strong won't let the weak threaten them.

europe otoh is under a diffuse situation where condescension reigns. the weak, a community of immigrants unease in their adopted new homes, are able to destroy the strong: a highly advanced society pact w/ a level of personal responsability and freedom never reached before. the poor dependant immigrants through civil disobedience and terror managed to bring down justice to it's knees... as in the episode of the danish charicatures.

de Tocqueville made the same point about democracy I did. I'm in better company agreeing with him than agreeing with you and everyone else who lives in that make believe world of good versus evil you play in. Too bad its a warped view of the world thats so destructive to others and not you. And it's too bad that you are so anti democratic in all you say and do. Democracy is about tolerence of differences. Equality. One other thing I always get a kick out of when you talk...you talk about America as if it were a Christian nation only. There are other religions represented here, including Muslim.

You should suit up and get over to Iraq and put yourself on the line for all those things you say you believe in, shouldn't you?

I'll send you deoderant and toothpaste and all those other nice things, I promise.

de Tocqueville made the same point about democracy I did. I'm in better company agreeing with him than agreeing with you and everyone else who lives in that make believe world of good versus evil you play in. Too bad its a warped view of the world thats so destructive to others and not you. And it's too bad that you are so anti democratic in all you say and do. Democracy is about tolerence of differences. Equality. One other thing I always get a kick out of when you talk...you talk about America as if it were a Christian nation only. There are other religions represented here, including Muslim.

You should suit up and get over to Iraq and put yourself on the line for all those things you say you believe in, shouldn't you?

I'll send you deoderant and toothpaste and all those other nice things, I promise.

Great post.

You start of with an appeal to authority, and then proceed to strawman like never before.

Maybe you should read the posts instead of projecting your hysterical opinions?

de Tocqueville made the same point about democracy I did. I'm in better company agreeing with him than agreeing with you and everyone else who lives in that make believe world of good versus evil you play in. Too bad its a warped view of the world thats so destructive to others and not you. And it's too bad that you are so anti democratic in all you say and do. Democracy is about tolerence of differences. Equality. One other thing I always get a kick out of when you talk...you talk about America as if it were a Christian nation only. There are other religions represented here, including Muslim.

You should suit up and get over to Iraq and put yourself on the line for all those things you say you believe in, shouldn't you?

I'll send you deoderant and toothpaste and all those other nice things, I promise.

democracy is a set of rules which guarantee certain rights and not a high horse for morally superior beings.
if you see tocqueville send my regards..

de Tocqueville made the same point about democracy I did. I'm in better company agreeing with him than agreeing with you and everyone else who lives in that make believe world of good versus evil you play in. Too bad its a warped view of the world thats so destructive to others and not you. And it's too bad that you are so anti democratic in all you say and do. Democracy is about tolerence of differences. Equality. One other thing I always get a kick out of when you talk...you talk about America as if it were a Christian nation only. There are other religions represented here, including Muslim.

You should suit up and get over to Iraq and put yourself on the line for all those things you say you believe in, shouldn't you?

I'll send you deoderant and toothpaste and all those other nice things, I promise.

Your biggest argument since you got here seems to be that everyone that doesn't think like you ought to be in uniform someplace. Democracy is often seen in idealistic terms but it isn't often that idealism is realized. What it is really about is being able to live together in the least intrusive manner possible. The majority, which is Christian, doesn't actually have to give up being Christian because someone is offended. I agree that there are a lot of false concerns about Islam and how to deal with the very real differences but there are some legitamate reasons to view professed Islamic tollerance with skepticism. That tollerance is not demonstrated to any great degree in countries under Sharia law, even what might be termed moderate Sharia law.

You boys play in a spiritual kindergarten, don't you. The majority of human beings aren't christian. And certainly in this country, no one says you should give up being christian, just keep it out of our schools and stop trying to legislate your brand of it. You speak of christians as if they were one. They aren't. Some won't ever fight no matter what the cause. Some ordain openly gays and lesbians. And on and on. You pretend you speak for all of them. You don't.

And yes, I think if you want to advocate war, then get yourself in a uniform and go fight it and quit sending our best boys and girls to do your dying for you. There hasn't been a war that made any difference to freedom in America since WW II. This one? Korea? Vietnam? They were started by small minded men with short sighted views of the world who managed to keep themselves and their sons out of it for the most part. Bush couldn't even show up and do his bit in Georgia for christsakes. Now he sends thousands to die and kill thousands more. He is a mass murdering moron, and so are the people who sit in the comfort of their dens writing garbage to support his policies on forums that make do difference to the world at all. Enlist.

Though it escapes you, de Tocqueville's point is that democracy erodes over time because people aren't allowed to express their point of view in any way that matters but for a vote every four years. The result...half of eligible Americans don't bother to register which means about 26 percent of the electorate actually decide matters. That isn't majority rules by any stretch. It's a situation that allows a small group of misinformed, misguided so-called Christians to impose their simplistic view of the world on every one else, to justify murder for a myth of America first, to justify selfishness in the name of being blessed by some human-like super being they claim loves them more than any one else and to ride this country which is supposed to be based on tolerence and self determination into the ground.

I misspoke. You don't play in a spiritual kindergarten. You haven't even made it to preschool.

And I'm certainly not hysterical, little guy. Un-American unprincipled silly uninformed people have pissed me off since I had to speak out at age 13 on Civil Rights and the Vietnam War as people like you who claimed to be Americans stood by and watched people of color beaten and killed for wanting to vote and others murdered for going through their own nation's growing political pains and cried America love it or leave it. Americans like me are reclaiming the turf. You others can leave any time,

You haven't even made it to preschool.


Thanks for the needless ad hom, but are you actually reading this thread? Maybe you are replying to another thread by mistake on this thread? Nobody is saying Christianity should dominate this or that. This is not even about 'Christianity', it is about the perpetuation of secularism and democracy. The survival of truth.

You boys play in a spiritual kindergarten, don't you. The majority of human beings aren't christian. And certainly in this country, no one says you should give up being christian, just keep it out of our schools and stop trying to legislate your brand of it. You speak of christians as if they were one. They aren't. Some won't ever fight no matter what the cause. Some ordain openly gays and lesbians. And on and on. You pretend you speak for all of them. You don't.

And yes, I think if you want to advocate war, then get yourself in a uniform and go fight it and quit sending our best boys and girls to do your dying for you. There hasn't been a war that made any difference to freedom in America since WW II. This one? Korea? Vietnam? They were started by small minded men with short sighted views of the world who managed to keep themselves and their sons out of it for the most part. Bush couldn't even show up and do his bit in Georgia for christsakes. Now he sends thousands to die and kill thousands more. He is a mass murdering moron, and so are the people who sit in the comfort of their dens writing garbage to support his policies on forums that make do difference to the world at all. Enlist.

Though it escapes you, de Tocqueville's point is that democracy erodes over time because people aren't allowed to express their point of view in any way that matters but for a vote every four years. The result...half of eligible Americans don't bother to register which means about 26 percent of the electorate actually decide matters. That isn't majority rules by any stretch. It's a situation that allows a small group of misinformed, misguided so-called Christians to impose their simplistic view of the world on every one else, to justify murder for a myth of America first, to justify selfishness in the name of being blessed by some human-like super being they claim loves them more than any one else and to ride this country which is supposed to be based on tolerence and self determination into the ground.

I misspoke. You don't play in a spiritual kindergarten. You haven't even made it to preschool.

And I'm certainly not hysterical, little guy. Un-American unprincipled silly uninformed people have pissed me off since I had to speak out at age 13 on Civil Rights and the Vietnam War as people like you who claimed to be Americans stood by and watched people of color beaten and killed for wanting to vote and others murdered for going through their own nation's growing political pains and cried America love it or leave it. Americans like me are reclaiming the turf. You others can leave any time,

Please read the posts in the thread.

Thanks for the needless ad hom, but are you actually reading this thread? Maybe you are replying to another thread by mistake on this thread? Nobody is saying Christianity should dominate this or that. This is not even about 'Christianity', it is about the perpetuation of secularism and democracy. The survival of truth.

I think I might have pissed him/her off. Sorry. :)

I don't think using plastic surgery as an indice is that far off.

How many conservatives in the 60's in the US had hair down to the middle of their backs?

is pretty much the antithesis of fundamentalist religious teachings

people who are devout and functioning on higher spiritual levels have no need for modifying 'this mortal coil'

If Iran is having massive amounts of nose jobs, it is because their youth want Western noses.

I figured you'd be a little more tuned in to the sociological aspects of a culture war Rydster, I guess not.

tell that to Paris Dakkar Rally people.
the rally has been cancell due to terrorist threats.

and is no indicator they are coming

they may have to cancel the next Baja 1000 or 500 because of the armed militias robbing and car jacking tourists

Thanks for the needless ad hom, but are you actually reading this thread? Maybe you are replying to another thread by mistake on this thread? Nobody is saying Christianity should dominate this or that. This is not even about 'Christianity', it is about the perpetuation of secularism and democracy. The survival of truth.

that's a good one

yeah put them in secular schools

even better remove them from their homes and have them adopted by secular families

did wonders for the Native American community

I got a better idea

sell them blue jeans and iPods

and dslrs, and MAcs

and is no indicator they are coming

they may have to cancel the next Baja 1000 or 500 because of the armed militias robbing and car jacking tourists

they are not coming to california but it's already in London, Paris, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Berlin, Madrid, Rome...

they are not coming to california but it's already in London, Paris, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Berlin, Madrid, Rome...

what we keep waiting for is your solution to this 'problem'


are they going to take over by outbreeding the non muslim?
are they citizens? can they all vote or are they laborers with temp Visas?

that's a good one

yeah put them in secular schools

even better remove them from their homes and have them adopted by secular families

did wonders for the Native American community

I got a better idea

sell them blue jeans and iPods

and dslrs, and MAcs

silly.
secular education is a huge possibility of breaking up the islamic reactionaries in europe w/out police state measures.
please get a different perspective from california. pretending it's not happening won't make it go away.

now too dangerous to travel. roadblocks with armed robbers. fake police cars pulling over tourists where they are robbed of everything, armed gunmen running in and shooting up the police station in broad daylight. armed gunmen going to the Chief of Polices house and killing him

have they converted?

sad because the majority of people in Baja are the nicest folks one would ever want to meet. Their businesses are suffering from the lack of $$.

what we keep waiting for is your solution to this 'problem'


are they going to take over by outbreeding the non muslim?
are they citizens? can they all vote or are they laborers with temp Visas?

there is no "solution".. but there are more interesting ways to deal w/it than pretending it's not happening.
yes. they are citizens and vote. it's a huge community.
a strictly controlled education means stronger integration and spreading of secular values. seducing youngsters w/ ipods while they are home schooled w/ religious fundamentalism or by jihadists in mosques? yeah... count on those ipods to spread rationalism and concern for civil liberties.

we must build a democracy where everybody belongs. society shouldn't be a platform for lawsuits only. the guettos and subcultures have to end. it begins w/ education. it's paramount.
a democracy as it is, made of ignore buttons is going nowhere. there must be a common base of values.
counting on the secular values superiority as a guarantee against ignorance is an irresponsible bet.

now too dangerous to travel. roadblocks with armed robbers. fake police cars pulling over tourists where they are robbed of everything, armed gunmen running in and shooting up the police station in broad daylight. armed gunmen going to the Chief of Polices house and killing him

have they converted?

sad because the majority of people in Baja are the nicest folks one would ever want to meet. Their businesses are suffering from the lack of $$.

comparing apples to oranges.

that's a good one

yeah put them in secular schools

even better remove them from their homes and have them adopted by secular families

did wonders for the Native American community

I got a better idea

sell them blue jeans and iPods

and dslrs, and MAcs

the saudis buy everything. lots of rolls royces. lots of trade.

is pretty much the antithesis of fundamentalist religious teachings

people who are devout and functioning on higher spiritual levels have no need for modifying 'this mortal coil'

If Iran is having massive amounts of nose jobs, it is because their youth want Western noses.

I figured you'd be a little more tuned in to the sociological aspects of a culture war Rydster, I guess not.

Iran may have progressive middle-class elements but that does not make the government a secular one, in fact it is no such thing.

Not that your argument that 'aesthetic tastes = ideological preferences' is even valid.

/Islamic diaspora is probably more 'radicalized' than rest of Islamic world.

that's a good one

yeah put them in secular schools

even better remove them from their homes and have them adopted by secular families

did wonders for the Native American community

I got a better idea

sell them blue jeans and iPods

and dslrs, and MAcs

You can do better than that...

I do read them...well some of them...I skip over a couple of people's. Is that what you said?

I do read them...well some of them...I skip over a couple of people's. Is that what you said?

Perhaps a course in reading comprehension would help?

You still here? I thought you'd be enlisting. Or are you one of those who just talk a great fight.

You still here? I thought you'd be enlisting. Or are you one of those who just talk a great fight.

Talk is what forums are all about.

You still here? I thought you'd be enlisting. Or are you one of those who just talk a great fight.

why not start another thread about enlisting for iraq or whatever it is?
this one here is about another issue.

From Snakebit;

"Islamic governments have to be convinced to change the message. Guns and bombs can be some assistance there. They are, after all, the tools of their own trade."


Colker1;

i don't get the logic here. mistaken or not the war on iraq has military targets: take out WMD(yeah yeah yeah...i know), terrorists and saddam hussein.
the pres. of the US never said: "let's defeat Islam in Iraq!".
the US were attacked. remember? what should the US do? bend over and sing kumbaya?
if terrorism has support in some countries(i know... pakhistan, not iraq), then the US has all the right to strike at those who support it."


So you see, if reading comprehension were more your thing and even a memory longer than your pet dog, you would see it was you who started the nonsense about war in a thread about Islam. Again, I suggest you and all those who support the moron in the WH turn off the computer, put away the bike, give up that cozy lifestyle of yours and go teach those Muslims a thing or two.

From Snakebit;

"Islamic governments have to be convinced to change the message. Guns and bombs can be some assistance there. They are, after all, the tools of their own trade."


Colker1;

i don't get the logic here. mistaken or not the war on iraq has military targets: take out WMD(yeah yeah yeah...i know), terrorists and saddam hussein.
the pres. of the US never said: "let's defeat Islam in Iraq!".
the US were attacked. remember? what should the US do? bend over and sing kumbaya?
if terrorism has support in some countries(i know... pakhistan, not iraq), then the US has all the right to strike at those who support it."


So you see, if reading comprehension were more your thing and even a memory longer than your pet dog, you would see it was you who started the nonsense about war in a thread about Islam. Again, I suggest you and all those who support the moron in the WH turn off the computer, put away the bike, give up that cozy lifestyle of yours and go teach those Muslims a thing or two.

yes, good cut and paste but....actually shows LACK OF BASIC READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS> this thread is not about Iraq.

LOL. You are such a funny man. Do you mean to be?

I'm sorry to the rest of you guys. I just got sick of listening to their sophomoric diatribes, the bigotry, all the rest. They're as deep as a mud puddle. Sorry again.

LOL. You are such a funny man. Do you mean to be?

I'm sorry to the rest of you guys. I just got sick of listening to their sophomoric diatribes, the bigotry, all the rest. They're as deep as a mud puddle. Sorry again.

yyaaaaawn....

You can do better than that...

my post quality to the original thesis

we have far more hispanic immigrants in CA than Europe has Muslim immigrants

so far all the diaspora has done is added Cincio de Mayo to the holiday drinking list

I'm sorry but I just find your paranoia amusing

my post quality to the original thesis

we have far more hispanic immigrants in CA than Europe has Muslim immigrants

so far all the diaspora has done is added Cincio de Mayo to the holiday drinking list

I'm sorry but I just find your paranoia amusing

one does not compare to the other. absolutely different problems.

just calling others paranoid doesn't make anyone smart. on the contrary.. it could be darwin award material.

in my country during my lifetime we had a radical Black Muslim movement

their call to arms "we don't die, we multiply"

it has been close to half a century and they are nothing more than a modest political force within their own community

we've had radical Chicano movements as well and they have membership in the millions

yes we can compare, we're talking about culture wars aren't we? You and Rydster are contending we need drastic measures to defeat the growing populations of Muslims in Europe are you not? The rest of us are saying secular democracy with a healthy economy can defeat it on its own.

I am just providing examples where this has proven true.

all these posts are convincing me of is, that I paranoid bigotry is alive and well in other places besides the USA

in my country during my lifetime we had a radical Black Muslim movement

their call to arms "we don't die, we multiply"

it has been close to half a century and they are nothing more than a modest political force within their own community

we've had radical Chicano movements as well and they have membership in the millions

yes we can compare, we're talking about culture wars aren't we? You and Rydster are contending we need drastic measures to defeat the growing populations of Muslims in Europe are you not? The rest of us are saying secular democracy with a healthy economy can defeat it on its own.

I am just providing examples where this has proven true.

all these posts are convincing me of is, that I paranoid bigotry is alive and well in other places besides the USA

you are again making false asumptions. calling others a bigot is a serious accusation in my book. not only is unfounded but your posts have a pathethic and ridiculous logic behind it. comparing black panthers or mexican politics to radical islam is dumb. laughable to say the least. the assassination of benazhir butto just shows.
we discussed how secular education in schools should contain and destroy anti scientific lies and propaganda from all types of fundamentalism. the US has a very loose control over school's curriculum.
secular education has nothing of drastic measures.
instead of discussing these ideas you rather accuse of bigotry and show off. grow up.:rolleyes:

because you believe the whole of Islam is after world domination

a new world Sharia

and that they will be able to achieve this simply by populating secular areas and converting them?

that a secular society that is religiously tolerant with a robust economy can not win the day against these madmen?

I'll tell ya what to watch out for. First they'll try big ticket government positions. They'll get blasted and won't stand a chance. They'll wise up and start infiltrating city councils and school boards. They'll pick up some converts of folks dismayed by the 'old ways' that have left them vacant. At some point they'll make up about half of a parties voting bloc. They think they will be influencing policy but mostly they will only get lip service. Someone will promise them they will push their agenda if they get their vote. Nothing will happen, at some point they'll push a candidate who comes to a loggerhead with the real power brokers of the party and then they will have a major schism.

again, sorry, BTDT. If the fundamentalists (who make up over 25% of the US Population, voting wise) can only mess a country up by electing a retard every now and then, my guess is Europe is about a century away from achieving said , same population densities.
In other words, if the fundies haven't converted the US to a theocracy yet, you guys have plenty of breathing room

now go Mr Little. there are people to warn