Hello all,

Sorry for the long post.

I don't post much here because most of the information I needed for general training has been asked and answered(Thank you all btw). I've recently had problems with my sleeping while increasing my mileage. I've yet seen any discussion on how to(for the lack of a better phrase) "get your ass in bed and be asleep" because you I need at least 8 hours of sleep before I go to my 8-5 job and have enough energy to train after.
Just to give you an insight on my training schedule, I mostly train after work(starting at 5:30- 6:00pm and ending at around 7:00 -8:00pm) on weekdays. Weekends is not an issue.
-Easy hour ride Mondays,
-3 x20s on Tuesdays,
-hill repeats on Wednesdays,
-long sustained 2 x 30s on thursdays
-off Friday,
-Long 3-4+ hour ride on Saturdays
-MTB fun stuff on Sudays.

Now, I'm usually beat when I get done with my training. I eat a light dinner, spend time with the GF(maybe a bit more exercise if I'm lucky) maybe have a beer but I don't normally drink alchohol anymore, but when its time for bed, my body temperature shoots right up. It is like my body is releasing heat. I then toss and turn for what seem like hours. I'd be luck to be sound asleep by 2am. Main problem with that is I have to get up a 7am the next morning to get to work. In the afternoon, I have to kick, pursuade, beg, and whatever ways I can think of to go encourage my self to suit up and train instead of just head and home and do nothing because I would be so sleepy and tired.

I have lasted 2 months so far and my insomnia keeps getting worse if I increase my intensity or mileage. So far I've tried Sudafed and Benadryl, sometime with a glass of wine, Camomile tea with milk, extended intimate session, sleeping on my stomack and side. I also tried consistent sleeping habbit, good sleeping hygene, and freaking playing Kenny G music. Other than Sudafed and Benadryl, non of the other method works. I can't rely on medicinal sleeping aids because I know that will have an adverse effect to your liver.

Can any of you advice on how to fall asleep quickly, and I mean in Stage1 to Rem sleep in less than 30 minutes after you hit the bed? What other methods do you all do.

Cool down your room somehow, open a window, something. That will help.

Read a book in bed. It'll help you mentally shut down and get ready for sleeping.

Sex works too, but that can take a while. Doesn't seem like it's helping you anyways...

Too much intensity?

Insomnia can come and go with some people...I know it does with me, but you seem to be doing a fair bit of intensity, and is it possible that through this, and work, you are just stressing your body too much, and the innsomnia inhibits your recovery and you are stuck in a positive feeback thing?

I mean you have 3 days of intervals back to back. How slow is Monday. Do you go into the red on Saturday? What about Sunday.

Maybe you need more base and/or less intensity volume.

Listen to your body.

Maybe have a couple of weeks off?

Sex works too, but that can take a while.

'Taking a while' will keep her happy.

Alternatively there is the manual option.

Hello all,

Sorry for the long post.

I don't post much here because most of the information I needed for general training has been asked and answered(Thank you all btw). I've recently had problems with my sleeping while increasing my mileage. I've yet seen any discussion on how to(for the lack of a better phrase) "get your ass in bed and be asleep" because you I need at least 8 hours of sleep before I go to my 8-5 job and have enough energy to train after.
Just to give you an insight on my training schedule, I mostly train after work(starting at 5:30- 6:00pm and ending at around 7:00 -8:00pm) on weekdays. Weekends is not an issue.
-Easy hour ride Mondays,
-3 x20s on Tuesdays,
-hill repeats on Wednesdays,
-long sustained 2 x 30s on thursdays
-off Friday,
-Long 3-4+ hour ride on Saturdays
-MTB fun stuff on Sudays.

Now, I'm usually beat when I get done with my training. I eat a light dinner, spend time with the GF(maybe a bit more exercise if I'm lucky) maybe have a beer but I don't normally drink alchohol anymore, but when its time for bed, my body temperature shoots right up. It is like my body is releasing heat. I then toss and turn for what seem like hours. I'd be luck to be sound asleep by 2am. Main problem with that is I have to get up a 7am the next morning to get to work. In the afternoon, I have to kick, pursuade, beg, and whatever ways I can think of to go encourage my self to suit up and train instead of just head and home and do nothing because I would be so sleepy and tired.

I have lasted 2 months so far and my insomnia keeps getting worse if I increase my intensity or mileage. So far I've tried Sudafed and Benadryl, sometime with a glass of wine, Camomile tea with milk, extended intimate session, sleeping on my stomack and side. I also tried consistent sleeping habbit, good sleeping hygene, and freaking playing Kenny G music. Other than Sudafed and Benadryl, non of the other method works. I can't rely on medicinal sleeping aids because I know that will have an adverse effect to your liver.

Can any of you advice on how to fall asleep quickly, and I mean in Stage1 to Rem sleep in less than 30 minutes after you hit the bed? What other methods do you all do.
I had very similar issues that you are having.
The solution might be exercise in the morning and eliminate any caffeinated product from your diet.
My family doctor suggest that I exercise in the morning instead of afternoon.
I changed my schedule by be in bed by 9:00 and up by 5:00 and follow by 1 to 2 hr ride.
Since then, I haven't had the issue.
For me, any activities that take place after 6:00 seems to cause me to not able to sleep and that includes sex. Also, any product with caffeine cause this problem for me.
One time I went out for a drink and a bartender made me a drink with some redbull.
I couldn't sleep all night not to mention the drink didn't taste too good.
I'm against taking medicine in general but have you tried Lunesta? One of my friends said it works like a champ and it's not habit forming(so I'm told).

1.)You're exercising too intensely too close to your bed time. Hard exercise shoudn't be within 6 hours of bedtime. (I know, but that's what all the sleep experts say). Can you train in the morning? Insomnia like this is a classic symptom of overtraining.
2.)Room could be cooler.
3.)Most importantly for you right now, you're well on your way to developing what is called psychophysiologic insomnia, which is the most common kind. It is actually a conditioned response, wherein you associate your bed with the tossing/turning/churning you're describing. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You have to break the cycle (sorry). You do so by, every time you start tossing and turning, get OUT of bed, get OUT of your bedroom, go do something boring, and low stim, in ANOTHER ROOM. Go back to the bed when you feel yourself getting drowsy. Eventually, you break the conditioned association, your brain associates the bed with drowsy, and you sleep again. Repeat as necessary. It can take persistence, but this will work, if you stick with it. If you're awake anyway, it's not like it's costing you any sleep.

3.)Most importantly for you right now, you're well on your way to developing what is called psychophysiologic insomnia, which is the most common kind. It is actually a conditioned response, wherein you associate your bed with the tossing/turning/churning you're describing. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You have to break the cycle (sorry). You do so by, every time you start tossing and turning, get OUT of bed, get OUT of your bedroom, go do something boring, and low stim, in ANOTHER ROOM. Go back to the bed when you feel yourself getting drowsy. Eventually, you break the conditioned association, your brain associates the bed with drowsy, and you sleep again. Repeat as necessary. It can take persistence, but this will work, if you stick with it. If you're awake anyway, it's not like it's costing you any sleep.

And in addition, the above condition can be greatly enhanced by any anxiety. I have struggled with sleep at various times in my life and while there might be a small correlation to training in the evening, my sleep problems are usually a result of anxiety. Job, bike racing, house renos, they can all mess with my sleep. I have had times where I am dead tired and falling asleep watching the TV at 10 PM, but by the time I brush my teeth and go to bed my mind has come alive and I lay in bed tossing and turning. My anxiety could be anything, but eventually my anxiety will turn to anxiety over not being able to sleep! Especially the night before a big race.

Here are my suggestions:

1) If you train in the evening, get out of your kit and into the shower ASAP. I find if I have a shower right before bed my temperature might increase slightly.

2) Limit or eliminate your caffeine intake after noon.

3) If you eat a full meal after training, go somewhat lighter on the protein. Don't eat a big steak, the time to digest is longer and there is some evidence that large protein intake in one sitting actually aids alertness.

4) Get ready for bed completely (teeth brushed and flossed, PJs or whatever, all the stuff you have to think about done), then do something mellow like watch TV, read a book, or look at PDF instructions on the Campy website. Anything to make you sleepy. Amazingly, watching bicycle racing is often the best sleep-inducer for me.

5) If noise is a problem at all, wear earplugs. I live near the water on the PNW and when the big storms hit with wind and rain in the winter I can lay awake all night listening to noises and wondering what disaster is about to strike!

6) In desperate times, resort to medication. A simple antihistamine like Benadryl is a sleep-inducer and I will take it if I am really struggling or if I anticipate a struggle to sleep.

I suffer from this too- sometimes from training-related overstimulus, jet lag from international travel, sometimes just worry. Melatonin is safe, non-habit forming and it usually works for me when all else fails. What is your mind doing at bedtime? Are you obsessing about training/racing/whatever? You need to learn to derail the pattern somehow, and get your mind on something soothing and sleep-inducing. Your brain is keeping you awake, you need to practise visualizing being calm and sleepy, the transition requires practise to make a new habit/pattern. Visualization techniques vary a lot, just experiment with a few things, but the idea is to find a regimen that works, visualizing a calm sleepy state earlier in the evening, then going through a regular consistent before-bed regimen to signal your brain to get with the program at bedtime. Things to try include getting in bed a little earlier and spend some quiet time reading something non-stimulating and completely non-related to whatever you currently spend your time thinking/worrying about at bedtime. Probably not news, or any magazine with lots of colors to wake you up, maybe something like short stories or a novel, engaging but not "too" exciting or interesting. Or just imagine a pleasant place somewhere (probably without your bike, sunflower fields put me in the TdF scrum, NOT sleep-inducing!) and imagine falling asleep on a sunny rock or whatever. The point is practising a regular visualization before bedtime about falling asleep. Just another use of the same visualization techniques that get you to that sweet spot in the final sprint-
sleep well-

Wow, GREAT info in this thread.

I would only +1 that I think you're doing too many intervals. With a full-time life, I bet you'd progress faster if you moved the hill repeats to Tuesday, rest/easy on Wed and 3 x20s on Thursday. Very few people can do 3 quality workouts a week with a full time job.

And of course, listen to these guys and get your sleep - the most important part of training.

Creak.

All,

Thank you for taking the time to ready my post and offering tips and advices. I will consider each and every advice the you all graciously offered and hopefully I'll get to a point where sleeping on time is not an issue any longer.

I will also start cutting down on my intensity days as many of you have suggested, down to 2 days a week. I will keep the hill repeats and 3 x 20s but I'll definitely will drop the 2 x 30s since it really is very early in the season. I was trying to cram for finals that is coming up in Tucson for the Old Pueblo 50 mile endurance event. Although, I do feel a bit behind on schedule and I might just call it off and just start my first race in - April 4-6, 2008 - in conjunction with the NOVA NORBA National; McDowell Competitive Track.

So other than the sleep thing, This year (well since Dec 26th, 2007), I have been on schedule and I have been following my training routine diligently. Improvements are noticeable when I feel fresh. I'm still very much driven and motivated. I just need to get through the days when I feel lazy and tired. I believe we all can relate to that.

Again, I appreciate the feedback. See you all at the races!

Tanthalas of Solace/Qualinost

Two things:
1.Working out at a high intensity close to bed time can leave you a bit wound up making it hard to sleep.
2. I don’t know the intimate details of your training but your sch. seems to lack good periodization and focus. You might try to do a week or 2 that is more manageable and repeatable. Then do a killer big week, then rest week. Also, maybe try focusing on 1 aspect of your training at a time. Your doing 20’ intervals, 30’ interval, hill intervals (not sure on how long or intensity they are at?) and doing longer endurance riding. Its to much. You will get fit, you will get better. But if you take couple weeks or a month and just focus on the endurance riding, then move to something else you would develop those areas better…

Just something to think about.

I used to work out late during the last two years of my undergrad. I'd hit the trainer hard for an hour, or the trainer and treadmill for 30 minutes each. Most of these workouts were between 9 and 10 at night, and I had no trouble getting to sleep by midnight. I'd also consider myself a morning person, but anytime I tried working out in the morning I felt too sluggish. Getting the exercise in the evening was a good way to unwind after a long day of class, work and studying. I would put in an hour of studying after my workout, so maybe that's what put me to sleep; organic chemisty will do that to you, I suppose.

totally agree with the workout too close to bedtime. It takes the body a while to unwind. Perhaps try some hippy solutions with meditation. Or a soak in the tub vs. shower. Go ahead and have that beer. Little romp in the sack with the mrs. doesn't hurt either. +2points if she does all the work :p

A few more ideas, some similar to others already suggested:
1) Evening routine: I put 15watt rope light in the bathroom area and a dimmer switch in the potty place. The rope light provides very soft light while I brush teeth and change clothes. The dimmer goes on really low for the final pee of the night.
2) I found that TV or computer within an hour of bedtime causes me insomnia. If I'm on web sites or whatever until 10pm or later, I can't get to sleep for hours. TV isn't quite as bad, but similar effects.
3) I usually read a fiction book. If I have trouble falling asleep, I try to re-live one particularly uninteresting mtb trail called Mt Falcon. I mentally leave the parking lot, pedal across the first gravel section, then try to imagine every inch of the trail on the way up. If I lose track of where I'm at, I start over at the beginning and imagine pedaling out of the parking lot again. It is a very boring trail, so there is zero excitement factor in imagining every inch of it. This has been pretty fool-proof for me. By the 3rd or 4th time I've lost my place on the trail and have to start over, I'm gone.

Hope that helps!

i'm thinking the arvo exercise close to sleep is an issue - switch to early morning - cut out all caffine except maybe 1 serve in the morn if you really need it... see how that goes...

thumping out a rapid 2 hr ride b4 8am and pulling a 9-6er after wards usually means total blackout by 10:30pm for me

i pee with the seat down. keeps me tired when i go in the middle of the night. got the idea fron larry david (curb your enthusiasm). just make sure the seat is down before you sit. that cold water in your anus will keep you up all night.

For a painful joke, get a spinal fluid examination for metabolized neurotransmitter excretions to see if you are low in 5-HT or NE, it'll only set you back a couple grand... you know that's only what you've been saving for that nice new bike~. Try eating a diet with more turkey/nuts/fish/eggs/cheese. OR 5-HTP pills. Check with a doctor first. I've had clinical depression on/off since '96. Not terrible, but it causes extreme insomnia in me. I still don't sleep well, but haven't been "sad" depressed for nearly a decade.... lack of sleep is hell. really. I've decided to experiment with my own brain by taking 5-HTP.... specifically because I'm tired of using tylox, marijuana, or alcohol to sleep well. (Valerian root didn't work worth crap) I take 75% of the regular dosage by mg using a balance scale, and I have noticed that I've been sleeping an extra four to five hours a week. This is wonderful, because I rarely sleep anywhere near 40 hours a week on avg (except my crash days where I will sleep sixteen to twenty hours without waking up even to pee). Try it, and talk to your doc~

P.S. love the politically correct term "extended intimate session :thumbsup:

Can I recommend seeing a doctor before you even glance at lalahsghost's reply?

Have you tried transcendental meditation? :D

I'm only half-kidding...

Seriously though, when you are tossing and turning, is it because your legs are aching/sore or because your mind is racing and heart rate is elevated? Mine is usually caused by the former and can happen hours after a hard run/ride.

If that's the case, then moving the training times and/or adjusting volumes may be a solution.

If it's mental/physio(but not just sore muscles), then in addition to what other's said, you may want to look at:

1. Your diet: Is that light meal really light? Are you having a reaction to some food additives? Do you have some food allergies (dairy, wheat) you may not be aware of that are causing intestinal stress?

2. State o' Mind: Back to the meditation thing...are you generally a calm and content person or stressed out? Does the news/web freak you out? Any unresolved life issues? There are ways to deal with this stuff without resorting to a life of self-medication...

Of course, WTF do I know about sleep...it's 01:00am and I'm 6 hours thru a 12 hour shift. F. Me. :mad2:

I know pharmaceuticals are a last resort, but I have been on 50mg
Trazadone for a few years. It has a very low half-life (no residual effects
the next morning) and no side effects. I know this site is very holistic
in philosophy, but this med just barely 'takes the edge off' and lets me
get past the mental background noise.