I was poking around on ne-bra.org as I am applying for my cat 3 upgrade. I had to do a resume based on experience, as I only have 4 points, but did 26 races. I sort of feel like I have to beg to be upgraded to a 3 (I did not qualify on the old rules, except for the 25 race experience rule).

So, I was shocked to see that they have COMPLETELY revised the upgrade tables for the first time that I can ever recall. They have changed the road upgrades to give varying points based on field sizes, and more amazingly, they have completely redone the cross upgrade!

4-3 is now 5 RACES or 7 points in 12 months...Dang. 5 races! That is a major change.
3-2 is now 10 points, and 2 wins is an automatic. NICE!
2-1 is 20 points, or 2 wins.

They did revise the points schedule so only top 6 get points. So that is a change (not as deep), but still, looks like they realized that a: there was alot of sandbagging, and b: it was wicked hard for an average guy to upgrade (me for example).

Did anyone get any kind of announcement about this or did they just slide it into the rule book (not that I have mine yet).

J (pretty sure I get my cat 3 now...)

G-Ride,

Josh broke the news last week IIRC.
http://timetogetmoving.blogspot.com/2008/01/usac-upgrades.html

early last week.

where U been?

2 wins makes you excited? LOL

but that said - who cares what cat you are, U R a masters racer... no categories...

free for all...

eh?

b: it was wicked hard for an average guy to upgrade

Why is this a bad thing? Should the average guy be a cat 2?

Can you link the new upgrade rules before I say stupid things with incomplete information? aka "Pull a GeWilli"?

Why is this a bad thing? Should the average guy be a cat 2?

Can you link the new upgrade rules before I say stupid things with incomplete information? aka "Pull a GeWilli"?

i forgot to link it. http://www.ne-bra.org/pages/racers/upgrade.asp

I think it was too hard to upgrade. how can you call people out for sandbagging when the rules allow them to rack up huge points and such to upgrade? And more to my case, I dont think I would ever get the points to be ABLE to upgrade to cat 3, so technically I should hang around in the 4s right? I think people at the top of their cats should be asked to move along, and people in the top third should be given the opportunity to move up. It makes you a better racer, and loads of other reasons. And if you dont, it just gives the guys who are 5-10th every race a reason to stay in the 4s forever, when they would be fine in the 3s.

Whatever, its been beaten to death. I just like the new rules. I will leave it at that.

J

i forgot to link it. http://www.ne-bra.org/pages/racers/upgrade.asp

how can you call people out for sandbagging when the rules allow them to rack up huge points and such to upgrade?

I think people at the top of their cats should be asked to move along, and people in the top third should be given the opportunity to move up.

J

From these sentences I think we both agree that the true problem was no one being forced to upgrade. You can change the points all you want but until someone is getting auto-upgraded you haven't done anything to combat sandbagging.

I think the real important change there is that it's impossible to hang around in cat 4, so the first thing we'll see next year is shrinking cat 4 fields, and a correspondingly huge cat 3 fields. So most people will be in the HUGE cat 3 fields with the top guys getting siphoned off. So it will still be hard to get to Cat 2 if the fields get much larger in Cat 3, but if they dont, then a ton of 3's will be able to upgrade from all those 25 person cat 3 fields that will give points 5 deep.

4-3 is now 5 RACES or 7 points in 12 months...Dang. 5 races! That is a major change.
3-2 is now 10 points, and 2 wins is an automatic. NICE!
2-1 is 20 points, or 2 wins.

So does merely completing 5 races in Cat 4 mean automatic upgrade, or just allow someone to upgrade if they put in the request?

What if they were finishing 20th out of 27 riders in Cat 4?

So does merely completing 5 races in Cat 4 mean automatic upgrade, or just allow someone to upgrade if they put in the request?

What if they were finishing 20th out of 27 riders in Cat 4?

I would think it was optional so that the guy in your example doesn't get smoked in 3 since he's getting smoked in 4. Points are auto-upgrade, not # of races.

I believe it is designed to help people who are doing well in Cat 4 and want to challenge themselves in 3. I had to do a lot to get my 3 upgrade even though I didn't have the points. I was always top-10 in Cat 4 (8 races) on a SS, and top-15 in my first few B races, but out of points, yet I was denied b/c of lack of points. Got the state director to write in on my part and got it b/c he knew I was competitive vs the other 3's. This change seems to be designed to help that out, make Cat 4 truly for beginners and let people be challenged racing 2 and 3. Getting to 1 is still a hard thing to do me thinks. The NJ series at Augusta, the race director always went up to guys who were killing it in C's and told them to race B's to keep it fun for the newbies. That is the spirit of this change I think.

I would think it was optional so that the guy in your example doesn't get smoked in 3 since he's getting smoked in 4. Points are auto-upgrade, not # of races.

I believe it is designed to help people who are doing well in Cat 4 and want to challenge themselves in 3. I had to do a lot to get my 3 upgrade even though I didn't have the points. I was always top-10 in Cat 4 (8 races) on a SS, and top-15 in my first few B races, but out of points, yet I was denied b/c of lack of points. Got the state director to write in on my part and got it b/c he knew I was competitive vs the other 3's. This change seems to be designed to help that out, make Cat 4 truly for beginners and let people be challenged racing 2 and 3. Getting to 1 is still a hard thing to do me thinks. The NJ series at Augusta, the race director always went up to guys who were killing it in C's and told them to race B's to keep it fun for the newbies. That is the spirit of this change I think.

exactly my point. Its actually about impossible to get 25 races in the past 12 months, i think that is the exact wording of the old rule. Anyway, I think the 5 races thing comes into play for the same reasons as in road, when MTB riders started to cross over. You had experts coming in and racing 5's cause that was where they were assigned. You want to be able to move people along who want to move along with out making it HARD for them like Ted's example and my example.

Several years ago (ok, 10 now that I think about it) I got back into racing for the 2nd time. I had dropped my license over the previous years, and was assigned as a Cat 5. I had a heck of a time just getting BACK to Cat 4! I had to beg, etc.

Cat 4 (5 in road) should be UN-INTIMIDATING!!!!! Not stacked full of fast guys who are either hanging around for the ego stroke (lets face it, it does happen in cat 4 cross, though its inexplicable to me) or cause they are having to work thru loads of points to get out, etc. We want to hook people, not chase them away.

If you are top 3 in cat 4 cross a couple times, you should be gone (well, all three of you should). I think cat 4 should be honest to god beginners, like in MTB, and cat 3 should be for people who are really into racing. Remember, its cat 3 cross, not cat 3 road. We dont have a cat 5. If the threes get huge, I suspect a cat 5 will be institued just like in road when that happened (fields too huge).

The Cat 3 to Cat 2 upgrade has been loosened way up as well. This is good, whether Col(l)in wants to upgrade to 2 or not (JOKING!!!!!). I get the feeling Cat 2 is under represented right now, and Cat 3 is loaded up with fast guys afraid of racing Elites. If we actually USE the upgrade rules and move people around for a season, we will get people where they belong and then the races will likely follow suit, with Cat 4-3-2 and 1/Elite races rather then this 3/4 2/3 1/2/3 stuff we have now as a result of our current setup with ugrades.

I think having a Cat 4, 3 AND Cat 2 race would make for great racing and less spread in the fields from 1st to worst. We need Cat 2s to make a viable Cat 2 field, though, since Elite races seems to entice cat 3's to sandbag. Then even Col(l)in would want to upgrade ;)

J

love it

It's interesting to see this. I'm now wondering why it took so long to ease up. The 4's should really be only for first and second year riders (me). I'd probably change the reg a bit to say 10 races instead of 5 for the upgrade to 3 from 4. I think that colin is correct in saying that the 3 fields will now be packed.

So here' s my situation. I"m a 4, but I usually, almost always race the Master's B race.....except when there's ONLY a Masters 1/2/3/4 race and no seperate Masters B race...then I drop down to the 4 race (happened twice last year). If the 4's all upgrade to a 3 for next year, the 3 fields are gonna be crazy huge, especially if the existing 3's do not upgrade themselves to a 2 (are you following me?). So if I upgrade and am forced to race with all the 3's and/or Master's A group, there's a good chance that I'll get lapped, or nearly lapped on some races.

should I wait until next year to see how big the 3's are? I dunno.

I guess that I'll commence to applyin' to upgrade. I'll just lick my wounds after every race a bit more, that's all.

bt

What if you start out with 30 racers in cat 4, most are first or second year racers.

The top third get good and opt to move up the next season or in the middle of that current year.

The second year very few new racers come out for cross races. There's maybe 22 cat 4's. At the end of that year some are forced to cat up and some opt to cat up.

I can see a situation where more riders move up or are forced to move up than the number of new riders that come out for cross races for the first time and come in at cat 4.

So arguably, there could no longer be a cat 4 because everyone got their points basiacally by default and had to move up.

I mean really, the last three guys left in cat 4 and at the end of the season they all have their points to move up because they've been only racing each other all year. So the next year there's not any cat 4's or just the 2 or 3 new guys that just started.

This was my second year of cross I raced cat 4 all year and got 4th once due to a sand bagger other wise I would have got 3rd. But anyway, I was always top 25% sometimes breaking into the top 10. I can't do masters yet, but I'll probably race the 3/4 next year just to continue to push myself and I do hope to be that much better by next fall.

I know the possibility of this scenario happening is about the same as evolution. But it's an interesting way to think about the process.

should I wait until next year to see how big the 3's are?
no - you should collect as many different number plates as you can, bring them to every race, and pin up the one that looks most like what everyone else has on. Race one lap less than the field, and give yourself the win in your unique category. Submit your independent results to Crossresults.com, become the first rider Cat 4 to be ranked #1 there, and order a points leader skinsuit to wear all season. Then show up for elite nationals and demand a call up. Finish off the season by riding through the course tape and crashing out Adam Sullivan, crushing his hopes for a national title.

I was there with you, especially when you mention the leader's jersey skin suit, until the end. Crashing through the tape, purposely or not, is considered bad form...unless of course, you take out some a$$hat sandbagger. I would much rather simply fall down in front of a charging leader's group or crack my ankle on a run up thus forcing a selection. NOw that's the way to affect a race!

Interestingly, I have all of my number plates from all of the races that I've done, so I could actually do what you mention. However, I could not live with myself if I did that. Besides, the Verge leaders jersey is ugly, I can only imagine the skinsuit would be worse.

I'm off to study interpretive embrocation. It's a course being offered at my LBS. I would have thought that my background in bio and organic chemistry would have been a good prep for this course, but no, it isn't. All this "tincture" stuff is really confusing.

I am the shizzy.

bt

"I am the shizzy".... ya know, Snoop is on Larry King Live tonight??