Hey there - Finally got cycling.tv to behave and I watched the men's race last night. I was not entertained.

I love me a good grass crit.... when I'm racing in it. I guess I like going fast better than trying to keep my bike underneath me. When you get 20+ super fast pros racing a course like that though, it's like watching a crit.

After the 4th or 5th attack was easily brought back by the 20+ members of the first group it became very clear that there was no point in going any time before one to go. So they rode around looking at each other for the middle 45 minutes of the race. There was very little drama building which made Boom's winning attack fairly anti-climatic. I think watching this race in person would have been better as you would have really gotten an appreciation for the speed that these guys can get around that course.

All this being said, I would love to race that course! Looks like fun for a middle of the pack master's racer. 6 laps would be more than enough though, maybe even just 5.

I've heard people say that if they held a World Cup on the Providence course, it would be the same way. If that be the case, I say don't bother making the trip.

Thoughts?

So, would you rather see the race just blow apart and watch guys go by with 10-20 second gaps?
On the last few laps at the last World Cup...the only race going on was for 7th.( it could have ended with 2 laps to go( almost 20 minutes early) with the same results)
But...sometimes, the same course will yield completely different results/splits when riders have better or worse legs and tactics( as in how World Cups, run on the same courses year to year...can have very different results)
Hell...go to a local training crit. Same guys, same course...and you have different results and race flows every week.
How do people know how a World Cup would play out when there's never been one there?( granted...I think it would stay together longer in the right conditions in Providence...but blow apart in other conditions( rain/ snow)).
Italy MAY have been completely different with just a little rain.
Bottom line: every race will be different

Hey there - Finally got cycling.tv to behave and I watched the men's race last night. I was not entertained.

I love me a good grass crit.... when I'm racing in it. I guess I like going fast better than trying to keep my bike underneath me. When you get 20+ super fast pros racing a course like that though, it's like watching a crit.



Boring race for just the reasons you pointed out. Like watching the World RR championship decided in an office park.

I hate the grass crit type of course both for racing and watching, really what's the point. Cross should have sections where the powerful riders are fast and sections where the technical riders are fast, (in equal measure if you ask me).

Although I'll admit that with some rain, that course may have been very different.

Well, I agree with Matt, and I said the same thing here after the race. Was a snooze. I think in a ideal world, you need to ensure that a given course for such a high profile race will deliver a good race in any concievable conditions. If we use the Prov. course and its dry like nats #2, and the racing is a snooze like Worlds was, then we just blew our shot. I think any course can be made exciting with advanced planning and some adjustments (again pre planned). Basically have a muddy option and a dry option.

My big gripe with Treviso was that it did not "look" like a cross race to a viewer. There are fast courses that still demand skills, and I like fast courses. Not saying cross has to be a mudbath, in fact I find those boring as well. Couple loads of sand, a barrier or two, could have made that course alot different, given it a technical feature, etc.

Funny, I thought the same thing as Matt, looks like it would be fun to race on! If we want to get international cross here, with spectators, it needs to be fun to watch too.

Not trying to start another bit$# thread, just saying I found the course boring and the venue had huge potential.

Yup,

Lousy WCs. I had considered traveling and I'm glad I didn't. Nothing much of interest happened in any race. The Ladies had some mud to contend with but the course had dried off for the mens. Spectacular setting - uninteresting and unchallenging course. Dunno what Adrie Van Der Poel was up to.

One thing about watching those guys: They make everything look easy!
I agree with you guys that it wasn't a real exciting race...BUT...
I was not in Italy...but I bet riding ( never mind racing) that course would give you a different opinion.
I have ridden on 2 World Cup courses( that the fast guys made it look easy )...and if you had a New England Verge race there...people would die! Literally! ( Pascal B had to run a lot of the Holland w/c...that the others were riding!) The course looks very different from the other side of the tape!

Adri VP likes a fast tactical course....which is what he designed. It may have been a very different race with a little rain...or a crash in the tighter sections of the course..or just one of the front guys having better or worse legs...the list goes on.

Races that become epic legends....are a mix of course design...and then add in a million factors which no one has any control over. And that is what makes them epic.....they are rare.

Is watering the course frowned upon? Seems like some sprinklers would be a good way to keep Providence from being a grass crit.

Another thing to note is that WCs only had 1 dismount (stairs), providence had 4 (barriers, stairs x3) in 2006.

Good point on dismounts.
Adri vP was one of the folks talking about removing barriers completely from cross. Although he seems like a good runner...he would rather have a fast and tactical race( wathc the vid of his World Championship). From a "sell this to a tv package" view...this makes sense...it keeps the field together and in camera view. To a cross fan...well, it leads to this thread. To an old school cross fan like me( ok, just old)...I miss 7-10 dismounts per lap.
I don't think we'll be turning on sprinklers in Providence any time soon.

One thing about watching those guys: They make everything look easy!



I was thinking the same thing. That italy course was effing HILLY. That is why I think the Providence course as we ran it at Nats #2 would be way to easy and short. Then you think about the salad bowl or whatever that section was called, in between the trees...what does that look like at WORLD CUP Speed? Prolly scary as hell. Setting up a course for the 60 fastest guys on the planet would be a huge learning curve for any US promoter. I hope that the first time we do it it comes off ok.

However, no matter how hard parts of the Italy course were, with the long roadie sections in between, and all that horsepower, it really neutralizes the hard parts and makes every look at each other and wait till the last lap. Big snooze.

Last years course was AMAZING, had it all. I thought Zolder was really good. Monopoli was sucky, but more interesting then this year. But the location this year was out of this world, what an amazing venue.

Good point on dismounts.
Adri vP was one of the folks talking about removing barriers completely from cross. Although he seems like a good runner...he would rather have a fast and tactical race( wathc the vid of his World Championship). From a "sell this to a tv package" view...this makes sense...it keeps the field together and in camera view. To a cross fan...well, it leads to this thread. To an old school cross fan like me( ok, just old)...I miss 7-10 dismounts per lap.
I don't think we'll be turning on sprinklers in Providence any time soon.

I have not liked the direction AVP has taken cross in the last 5 years. but that is must my opnion. He seems to be a vocal, powerful, MINORITY, kinda like George Bush. I dont think its the best. Stairs are a great alternative to barriers, if he does not like barriers. Always a cool spot to see on TV, last year comes to mind.

Anything that slows the field down is good for TV, as is anything that groups the field. But you need to BREAK UP the field as well or its a road race, and we all know how popular those are to watch. I can barely get thru Roubaix!

Anyone remember the super cups where they trucked in bark mulch and the six pack of barriers? That was COOL. Disco Flyovers, COOL. Sand pits, COOL. A cross course needs FEATURES, IMHO, and Treviso just really lacked any. It looked like a cross course right after you layout the tape, but have not finished setting up yet...

I still think AVP is misguided. Let AHM take over for a while...

J

The 09 Worldz will be in Hoogerheide, Ned...the site of the last world cup the last few seasons. It tends to be soft and mushy grass with a couple of technical descents and some blazing fast pavement. It would be faster if there was drought( which usually doesn't happen).It also tends to break the field up...the race tends to spread out at the 30 minute mark.Oddly, I think Adri vP designed this course, too.

Anyone remember the super cups where they trucked in bark mulch and the six pack of barriers? That was COOL. Disco Flyovers, COOL. Sand pits, COOL. A cross course needs FEATURES, IMHO, and Treviso just really lacked any. It looked like a cross course right after you layout the tape, but have not finished setting up yet...

I still think AVP is misguided. Let AHM take over for a while...

J
Considering that I was one of the guys who had to shovel and rake that mulch...I remember it very well. We used to have up to 18 planks on SuperCup courses back then....cross was very different.
I have some vids of the "six pack of death " in Chicago( including Steve Larson's big biff) around here somewhere...I'll have to find it and post it up.

And fly overs are cool....but your legs will hate them as the laps go on! But I wouldn't want to be the promoter who has to deal with them( or watchig the big B or C field bottle neck/crash).

Sand...I love it...but if you put in a section like Mol...or some of the big Belgian races...you would have a LOT of people walking within a few laps....and flame threads galore!

I was thinking the same thing. That italy course was effing HILLY. That is why I think the Providence course as we ran it at Nats #2 would be way to easy and short. Then you think about the salad bowl or whatever that section was called, in between the trees...what does that look like at WORLD CUP Speed? Prolly scary as hell. Setting up a course for the 60 fastest guys on the planet would be a huge learning curve for any US promoter. I hope that the first time we do it it comes off ok.


When Tom Stevens designed the Providence Natz course...it was to provide great racing while be still being rideable for US racers.It worked. A course for 40 of the worlds best would be different.
A little note....on some World cup courses , the course is the required 3 meters wide. BUT...there just happens to be 2.5 meters worth of trees staggered accross the course...which may be a fast ,bumpy, slick mud downhill. In the US...that is called a "law suit ...and forum flame...waiting to happen"

Sand...I love it...but if you put in a section like Mol...or some of the big Belgian races...you would have a LOT of people walking within a few laps....and flame threads galore!

Didn't Mercer Park have the maximum allowed distance sand pit? I saw a lot of people slowly jogging the sand area (me included), but didn't see anyone walking.

What is maximum? Mercer sand was not long(but it was difficult).
Just watch a few WC vids or look up Mol at mudandcowbells or youtube.
Those sand sections will make all but the very best run...most will walk...or crawl....or stop and hang their head.

I watched the Junior men's race from Treviso, last night, and it was way different seeing it raced at "mortal" speeds. They actually had to run the steep hill, and they also ran a lot more stuff that the pros rode up. They fell on corners. They went speeds I can imagine going. It was an exciting race. Two riders got away early, a Pole and a Czech, then a French kid bridged to them, dropped them, they rejoined, he gapped and he won. The rest of the riders remained over 30s back the whole time. The announcers on Sporza couldn't stop talking about Danny de Bie and Stef Boden, even tho they were well out of the action. Belgian kids you know. The French kid who won, Jouffroy, couldn't stop crying. It's amazing to see the respect that riders from Europe have for the rainbow jersey. It definitely wasn't just another race!

Some poor Italian kid had to run almost a whole lap early in the race, and he finished minutes behind the winner, but they didn't pull him.

The elite men's race was just blazing fast and yeah, not technically challenging enough. Watching them blaze the 25% hill on bikes was unreal. I didn't know who was going to win until the last lap, but several times during the race when Stybar, Boom, Nys threw in attacks I thought "That guy is going to win it." It was definitely a time trialist's course.

I thought van der Poel did a good layout. Would have been nice to see some more sand or deep gravel or mud or barriers (?) but it was good. Actually, some well-placed barriers could have made it more like Tabor, with bunny-hopping being a factor.

Morgan

I think if we get a WC race here, the course has to be designed for the international riders, and alot of it would be totally inappropriate for the lunch bag racers. The flyovers particularly. That is sort of my point in a way, I hope they dont design it for the "festival" racers cause you ahve to think about what it would be like to try to navigate it on a 100cc dirt bike at full throttle! Big diff. But in america none of our top cadre of course designers have that kind of first hand experience. I am sure they can handle it, just saying.

There is a reason I will never race at Mol, way too much sand, i would not like it to race on!

The course was designed by Adri vP...who likes fast ,tactical courses...and is Dutch.
The big late attack that launched Boom was by Richard Groenendaal...who is Dutch.
And the win was by Lars Boom......who is ? who is? anyone? Beuller?
Discuss.......

Side note: If you read my Euro trip account...from what I saw in Bakel...you are going to see some serious motors coming from Holland...Nederland...Netherlands...whatever you want to call it.
The junior races ( I believe 7 or 8 age/ability classes)are bigger than any I've seen in the US. And there were some smoking women(both on the bike and visually) there that started 1 minute behind the Masters..and I think the front 3 women were between the 7 and 8th masters at the finish.And there was a World cup that day...so the top women weren't there!
And there were some very fast elites, too.
Maybe DuGast can shed some light here.....

There is a reason I will never race at Mol, way too much sand, i would not like it to race on!

Ohhh. That's the reason.
How do you know you wouldn't like it...if you don't try it? Sorta like brocclli and spinach.

I have not liked the direction AVP has taken cross in the last 5 years. but that is must my opnion. He seems to be a vocal, powerful, MINORITY, kinda like George Bush. I dont think its the best. Stairs are a great alternative to barriers, if he does not like barriers. Always a cool spot to see on TV, last year comes to mind.

Anything that slows the field down is good for TV, as is anything that groups the field. But you need to BREAK UP the field as well or its a road race, and we all know how popular those are to watch. I can barely get thru Roubaix!

Anyone remember the super cups where they trucked in bark mulch and the six pack of barriers? That was COOL. Disco Flyovers, COOL. Sand pits, COOL. A cross course needs FEATURES, IMHO, and Treviso just really lacked any. It looked like a cross course right after you layout the tape, but have not finished setting up yet...

I still think AVP is misguided. Let AHM take over for a while...

J

I disagree with you on Roubaix, and you make my point on why that race is a favourite of mine quite nicely. I love Roubaix because it has FEATURES... 28 of them in fact. As the field comes to each feature the list of contenders dwindles until it is very selective at the end. Usually no more than 4 guys into the velodome. A 4 up sprint is an acceptible group finish to a selective race like that. Roubaix is a unique road race, and we have certain expectations for what happens in road races. PR meets my expectations every year. The other spring classics do as well. Flanders for the hills, MSR for the strategy at the Poggio, Amstel for the Cauberg.

I guess this is the root of my displeasure with this year's WC. It didn't meet what I've come to expect from a cross race. I can't watch pack riding yet.... it is too early in the year?!

The Treviso course could be great. Besides being dry and fast, the two areas that could have been selective were not not selective enough. The asphalt after the hill didn't seem to reward running or riding over the other as the groups would get back together, and those stairs were super fast. Adding sand (either a man made pit or a ride along the beach) and making them negotiate the trees where the pits were would have been great. Put that beach section in there with the pit 1.5km away and you would have seen some casualties.

The good thing about this year's WC experience is that I really came to understand what it was that I love about cross. If I thought it was riding a quasi road bike around on a field and over some dirt this race certainly proved that wasn't the case. It is the individual battling against the course, their fitness, the elements, their imperfect machine, and the competitors around them no matter where they may be in the placings. Sure, we all watch the leaders and run to the finishing chute for the final lap, but we do so because we know how hard it is to put together all of those elements to win a race. I like being in that struggle, and enjoy watching my friends fight their little battles as well. I like being able to hand up brownies, ring a bell and call people silly names too, and that is easier when the field is blown apart.

[QUOTE=myette10]Hey there - Finally got cycling.tv to behave and I watched the men's race last night. I was not entertained./QUOTE]

I was, I liked the tactical racing. I didn't think the course was terribly interesting though.

As for other comments watch the women's race to see what mortals looked like on the course, they were about 2 mintues slower per lap than the elite men, juniors were about a minute slower, U23 and Elites were about the same probably because of the slowing down in the elite race.

I think something else that has to be taken into consideration is the tactical nature of elite racing as opposed to the other fields. How many times did the pace get shut down because of someone sitting on or simply a lack of will of anyway to do the hard work in the elites? Quite a bit. All the other races were pretty much balls to the wall the whole time by everyone.

Boom and Mourey could have possible shattered the race if they'd persisted at the end of the first lap but Boom sat up as soon as Mourey wouldn't cooperate. Seemed like that happend numerous times throughout the race.

What is maximum? Mercer sand was not long(but it was difficult).
Just watch a few WC vids or look up Mol at mudandcowbells or youtube.
Those sand sections will make all but the very best run...most will walk...or crawl....or stop and hang their head.

I "heard" 80 meters, but that's not official, only what I was told at the race.

Bingo, DB!
With Dutch, French, Belgians and Italians all in that lead pack.... a lot of things could have/would have been different at the finish with a few subtle moves.
What if:
The Dutch tried to break it up early?
Nys tried to ride away?(and was still strong)?
The italians blocked while someone got away?
Who would have had THE legs after any of that?
If Mourey crashed in front of Boom?
A brief but heavy shower hit?
I'm sure they all had great plans
But Boom and the Dutch had the best execution of plans...and some luck.
That's racing.

And...every race does not need sand or mud.

Is watering the course frowned upon? Seems like some sprinklers would be a good way to keep Providence from being a grass crit.


I think it is actually forbidden (me to lazy to fact check right now - but I recal reading something to that effect in the USAC rules)...

I "heard" 80 meters, but that's not official, only what I was told at the race.

that is what it says in the UCI rule book.

Isn't there a UCI limit or recommendation for course length of about 3 km? I think the course was a bit longer than that. Having the course at 2.5k would have added in a couple of extra laps, more dismounts, fewer longer sections for the field to come together and a slightly more interesting race.

Making a comparsion with golf, Treviso looked like a tournament course, many of the previous northerneuro worlds looked like links courses . . . and the typical US race looks like a miniature golf course.
Watch out for the windmill!
:)

I "heard" 80 meters, but that's not official, only what I was told at the race.
The wording is "an obstacle can not be more than 80 metres"
The rules can be interpreted loosey-goosey...or ignored...and often are.
So if you have a 150 meter beach that a few guys can ride...but most have to run part of...and some have to run all of it...how long is the obstacle?
Watch a few Euro vids( I can't remember which ones...just watch them all)...those beach sections that those guys are riding fast are completely unrideable for mortals. And if the pros are running a sand section....well, forget about it!
Bottom line: until you see a World Cup and ride the same course...I can't even explain how big/hard/fast it is

i just have to say, if sven nys didn't race 30+ races inj a season, and if that ff'n frenchmen Mourey did'nt make Wellens fall, one of those 2 would have won, , even if Boogerd says Boom is the best, who is he to say that, he never was the best so he needs to shut up and pay respect to Sven Nys, maybe not WC but the best of the last 3 years

Ohhh. That's the reason.
How do you know you wouldn't like it...if you don't try it? Sorta like brocclli and spinach.

that doesnt work on either of my kids....

but I love them both (broccoli and spinach that is, the boys can be a PITA).

i just have to say, if sven nys didn't race 30+ races inj a season, and if that ff'n frenchmen Mourey did'nt make Wellens fall, one of those 2 would have won, , even if Boogerd says Boom is the best, who is he to say that, he never was the best so he needs to shut up and pay respect to Sven Nys, maybe not WC but the best of the last 3 years

Wellens was my pick but I don't think he was on a good day. He is not a patient rider like Vervecken and I don't think he had attacked at all during the race before the crash which happened pretty late in the race. It could have perhaps been more interesting if he had not crashed but he didn't appear to me to be particularly strong on that day.

regarding Roubaix, I meant that I can barely watch _THAT_ race start to finish, and its clearly exciting, let alone the Tour of Qatar. The other classic races are nice enough, but I still cant really sit thru them without wandering in and out. But I am very A.D.D.'ish.

Its all about FEATURES. Visual interest and all that.

I think it's just good that there are different races. Sure people have their expectations based on their previous experiences and when the race course is different from what they are used to, some people are not happy. I think the worlds course was just fine and the best guy won. Next year the course will be different and the best guy will win again.

i just have to say, if sven nys didn't race 30+ races inj a season, and if that ff'n frenchmen Mourey did'nt make Wellens fall, one of those 2 would have won, , even if Boogerd says Boom is the best, who is he to say that, he never was the best so he needs to shut up and pay respect to Sven Nys, maybe not WC but the best of the last 3 years
Sometimes it's a good idea to lurk for a while before making your first post. That way you can kind of get a feel for the tone of a place. You know, instead of just farting out a poorly constructed string of half-cocked inanity.

Just sayin'.

Sometimes it's a good idea to lurk for a while before making your first post. That way you can kind of get a feel for the tone of a place. You know, instead of just farting out a poorly constructed string of half-cocked inanity.

Just sayin'.
:thumbsup:

That was kinder than the reply I wrote but then thought better of.

It was a brilliant WC. I watched guys in the elite men's race who normally lap me, getting lapped.

Agree, US cross courses are only missing the windmill.

It was a brilliant WC. I watched guys in the elite men's race who normally lap me, getting lapped.

Agree, US cross courses are only missing the windmill.

3 riders got lapped. A Czech, a Norwegian and a Japanese. You must have a very wide international racing experience to get lapped by these guys;)

I have been watching the world cup races this year and it just seemed to me that the course was too different from what they race on all year. It was entertaining but I think it needed something more, whether it was sand or barriers I don't have enough experience to know, but something.

Whether it would have changed the result I don't know, Boom may have just peaked at the right time, while there were plenty of favorites who had gotten a little knicked up recently.

The most exciting footage I've seen this year is Nys v Wellens at the Koppenbergcross:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pUjeOCaAl2Y
Historic venue, great crowds, classic rivalry, and some chippy gamesmanship.

Van der Poel wanted the barriers fewer because the races were decided way to early. if you started #30 , you could FORGET ever coming to the front. Now we see JP and TJ in the lead 30 after half race. If they would have had the legs , they could have been WC. Thanks to VdP.

The most exciting footage I've seen this year is Nys v Wellens at the Koppenbergcross:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pUjeOCaAl2Y
Historic venue, great crowds, classic rivalry, and some chippy gamesmanship.

Koppenberg was a good one. Very impressive how Wellens hung in there and rejoined Nys late in the race. Then Nys put down one of the most vicious attacks I've ever seen in a cross race when he got the winning gap.

Hoogerheide a few weeks ago was a much better race than Worlds. Tough course and good showmanship of technical riding. The way cross should be.

The most exciting footage I've seen this year is Nys v Wellens at the Koppenbergcross:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pUjeOCaAl2Y
Historic venue, great crowds, classic rivalry, and some chippy gamesmanship.

+1, especially on the chippy gamemanship.

That one corner coming off the muur, where there's a little bit of elbow throwing? Favorite moment of the whole season for me.

Seems to me that the Womens race was technically challengeing and then the course dried out for the mens. I know the Brit girls said that people were crashing all over as it was so slippery and if you look at the girls bikes you can see they are alot muddier than the guys. It was a good win for Boom though, he has had a brilliant season and the Belgies have obviously raced way too much this year-they all looked well knackered. Dissapointing to report that the once great UK Cycling Weekly Worlds race report was pathetic, i subscribe to Velonews now as it does it so much better.

Anyone bought a Litespeed CX? how do they ride?

Seems to me that the Womens race was technically challengeing and then the course dried out for the mens.

I'm pretty sure Nys made comments to the effect that if the men's race were held earlier in the day it would have been much more techinically challenging.