Astana I can understand but High Road?

http://www.repubblica.it/news/sport_gen/sport_n_2878250.html

team high horse not so high anymore.

Pretty Lame....

Neither of those teams have many italian riders. I mean take a look at Slipstream they are loaded with Italians....oh wait, nevermind.

thank god Diquigiovanni and NGC Medical were invited--I was sweating over those ones. Seriously, haven't Giro organizers in recent years been trying to get out of the Tour's shadow by upping the competitiveness of the Giro? This is a big step back. If the Tour doesn't invite these teams, it will be a joke. They've got to invite 2 of the 3 podium finishers, including the winner.

thank god Diquigiovanni and NGC Medical were invited--I was sweating over those ones.

Simoni is now on Diquigiovanni, so I can understand them being invited (plus, they have a history at the Giro when they were Selle Italia). I'll only be happy CSF-Navigare got invited if Julio gets to ride.

I wonder how interested these teams were in riding it in the first place. Bruyneel, for example, was never interested in the Giro until he was forced to ride it because of the ProTour.

thank god Diquigiovanni and NGC Medical were invited--I was sweating over those ones. Seriously, haven't Giro organizers in recent years been trying to get out of the Tour's shadow by upping the competitiveness of the Giro? This is a big step back. If the Tour doesn't invite these teams, it will be a joke. They've got to invite 2 of the 3 podium finishers, including the winner.

I love Kloeden, but I hope Astana doesn't make the Tour. In fact the exclusion has to scare the **** out of Astana, because it sets the precedent. You can be sure that several pro tour teams won't be at the Tour this year.

The former T-Mobile squad being left out of the Giro is a bit of a surprise though. It certainly won't help them find a long term sponsor.

I wonder how interested these teams were in riding it in the first place. Bruyneel, for example, was never interested in the Giro until he was forced to ride it because of the ProTour.


Jani Brajkovic was targeting the Giro

I wonder how interested these teams were in riding it in the first place. Bruyneel, for example, was never interested in the Giro until he was forced to ride it because of the ProTour.

That's what I was thinking. If Contador, Levi, Horner, Kloden were not going to ride it anyway, then Astana will not be missed.

The former T-Mobile squad being left out of the Giro is a bit of a surprise though. It certainly won't help them find a long term sponsor.

A team that still has some baggage calling itself "High Road Sports" is a demerit mark on my scorecard. The person who nicknamed them "Team High Horse" was right on. "Team Highfalutin" would be another good name too.

Acqua e Sapone is the one that surprised me. I was hoping to see Garzelli do a good ride in his final Giro and since he won 2 stages last year and is a former winner I had assumed they were close to certain.

A team that still has some baggage calling itself "High Road Sports" is a demerit mark on my scorecard. The person who nicknamed them "Team High Horse" was right on. "Team Highfalutin" would be another good name too.

Isn't High Road Sports the name of the ownership group similar to Tailwind owning Disco/USPS? Would you be upset if LA decided to continue the team and called it "Tailwind Sports?"

Isn't High Road Sports the name of the ownership group similar to Tailwind owning Disco/USPS? Would you be upset if LA decided to continue the team and called it "Tailwind Sports?"

No...

thank god Diquigiovanni and NGC Medical were invited--I was sweating over those ones. Seriously, haven't Giro organizers in recent years been trying to get out of the Tour's shadow by upping the competitiveness of the Giro? This is a big step back. If the Tour doesn't invite these teams, it will be a joke. They've got to invite 2 of the 3 podium finishers, including the winner.

Go back and review the Giro from the last few years, and what you'll see is a race that is more exciting, and more visually stimulating than the Tour on every single level. I think the Giro organizers know what they're doing, and they also know that they're never going to get out from under the Tour de France, nobody will. It literally IS the 800 pound gorilla in the room and always will be. Which doesn't mean that the racing in Italy the last few years has been great, exciting, and much better, in my opinion, than the Tour has been as of late.

Don't you worry, the Giro will be plenty competitive, they don't have to invite anyone that they don't want to. It's their race, and it's actually a step forward. You have a past hard core doping regimen, and or had a bunch of our riders get bounced last year, guess what? No races for you.

The Tour doesn't have to invite anyone it doesn't want to invite either. They can not invite the winner, or people from the podium. Why do they have to? They don't. Contador et all, should have known that this could have happened when they signed for Astana, even though for the most part the team structure is not the same, and the same guys aren't on there, they must have known that this could have been an issue, and or there was a good chance that they wouldn't get invited because of what happened in 2007. I'd actually be more surprised if Astana did get invited to the Tour, considering the total self implosion of their team last year.

Go back and review the Giro from the last few years, and what you'll see is a race that is more exciting, and more visually stimulating than the Tour on every single level. I think the Giro organizers know what they're doing, and they also know that they're never going to get out from under the Tour de France, nobody will. It literally IS the 800 pound gorilla in the room and always will be. Which doesn't mean that the racing in Italy the last few years has been great, exciting, and much better, in my opinion, than the Tour has been as of late.

Don't you worry, the Giro will be plenty competitive, they don't have to invite anyone that they don't want to. It's their race, and it's actually a step forward. You have a past hard core doping regimen, and or had a bunch of our riders get bounced last year, guess what? No races for you.

The Tour doesn't have to invite anyone it doesn't want to invite either. They can not invite the winner, or people from the podium. Why do they have to? They don't. Contador et all, should have known that this could have happened when they signed for Astana, even though for the most part the team structure is not the same, and the same guys aren't on there, they must have known that this could have been an issue, and or there was a good chance that they wouldn't get invited because of what happened in 2007. I'd actually be more surprised if Astana did get invited to the Tour, considering the total self implosion of their team last year.

Let's face it, the rumors and innuendo around Discovery/USPS and Brunyeel are yet another reason. Going to Astana just provided a somewhat "reasonable" excuse to take action when no real hard evidence was / is available.

Acqua e Sapone is the one that surprised me. I was hoping to see Garzelli do a good ride in his final Giro and since he won 2 stages last year and is a former winner I had assumed they were close to certain.


People, this is a fantastic day! The fact that teams have to **earn*** their race slot with results is a wonderful thing! Filling out miles of UCI paper work should not equal race entry. In the same way that B.T. won't be phoning it in at the giro, I hope to see non-classics teams like Euskatel left out of Paris Roubaix in favor of more active teams.

I like it because what you do see on the list is the teams who were out front animating the Giro last year, and what's missing is the teams who have been a PR disaster for cycling, or use the Giro like a training camp.

I like it because what you do see on the list is the teams who were out front animating the Giro last year, and what's missing is the teams who have been a PR disaster for cycling, or use the Giro like a training camp.

Bingo. :thumbsup:

I wrote something similar, but not as concise on my giro page:
http://www.steephill.tv/giro-d-italia/#2008-teams-announced

People, this is a fantastic day! The fact that teams have to **earn*** their race slot with results is a wonderful thing! Filling out miles of UCI paper work should not equal race entry. In the same way that B.T. won't be phoning it in at the giro, I hope to see non-classics teams like Euskatel left out of Paris Roubaix in favor of more active teams.
I agree lets go with horses for courses, get the guys who really want to race and perform in the real classics and big tours, the pro conti teams have the Giro/Tour/Roubaix as the peak of their seasons and as hit it in prime form and with motivation that some of the pro tour teams just cant or wont match. Just because your team is rated as the "best" team in the world does not mean that they are the best in all races. IMHO this should make for better (read) more exciting racing.

People, this is a fantastic day! The fact that teams have to **earn*** their race slot with results is a wonderful thing! Filling out miles of UCI paper work should not equal race entry. In the same way that B.T. won't be phoning it in at the giro, I hope to see non-classics teams like Euskatel left out of Paris Roubaix in favor of more active teams.
Eh, how do you "earn" your place in the race at february 1.?
Riders on the team won 10% of the stages in last year giro so last years Giro results cannot be the merit.

Actually I think last years results were a huge factor in this years selections, just not the way you think. Off the top of my head what is it, 2/3 of the Giro podium from last year that is currently suspended?

Edit: Ok,I was close but still wrong, the winner is suspended and eddy mazzolini probably will be, also for the Oil for Drugs deal.

Just because your team is rated as the "best" team in the world does not mean that they are the best in all races.

Actually, it does mean that your team is pretty damn good in most races, and even better in the big ones. You can't be rated the "best" unless you race a lot and win a lot.

Does anybody remember the last year Paolo Salvodelli won the giro? He won with Discovery, a team that supposedly wasn't interested in being competitive in the Giro, plus it was the most exciting, combative grand tour in recent history. The Pro Tour was the best thing to ever happen to the Giro, prior to it the Giro would routinely have top level teams turn down invites (just like US Postal/Discovery did). Now it's a more important race and they are turning away the best teams? They are eating their young imo.

I don't know what the rules at the Tour are now but not long ago it was in the rules, black and white, that the previous years winner's team got an automatic invite no matter what team that was. The UCI and ASO have shown a terrible lack of interest in following their own rules in the last 3 years as well as a great capacity for writing new rules without thinking.

I really think if they leave out High Road and Astana from the Tour de France then that race automatically becomes a B-level event. It's not the title of the race, it's the quality of the competition. Kinda' like Landis' 06' win after the Tour organizers left out all of the top talent over the Puerto buisness, I would think a win without Astana or High Road could seem kind of bitter sweet.

On the upside, if the Giro continues to get back to the Italian only show it was a few years back then the Tour of California could re-schedule to May and add a couple days including a stage through Yosemite National Park and a bigger prize purse. A year or two of that and everyone will say "Giro de Where?"

Terzo Rene is right, the big surprise here is Acqua e Sapone, which means no Stefano Garzelli who won two stages last year and is a former Giro winner. I think A&S got excluded because they had -- if I recall correctly -- a couple of riders last year who flunked doping controls.

I think it's great that Bouyues Telecom and Credit Agricole are out because those teams would field "c" teams in past Giros. Same thing with Astana -- last year's Disco team was a joke with Hincapie pulling out mid-way through the Giro so he could train for the TdF and Popo clearly not in any form to compete for the GC. Bruyneel didn't earn points there. T-Mobile/Highroad is a bit of a surprise because they have Marco Pinotti and they are at the vanguard of anti-doping. Anyway, the Giro's (RCS) decision makes clear the ProTour is dead.

RCS runs Milan San Remo. I wonder if RCS might exclude Astana and Highroad for MSR ...

All of the top 6 from last year except Mazzolini have been invited back (I guess you could say the top 5).

Does anybody remember the last year Paolo Salvodelli won the giro? He won with Discovery, a team that supposedly wasn't interested in being competitive in the Giro, plus it was the most exciting, combative grand tour in recent history"

Paolo Salvodelli joined Discovery on condition they'd support him at the Giro in return for him supporting Lance at the Tour.

Here was their 2005 starting Giro lineup:
71 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita)
72 Michael Barry (Can)
73 Volodymyr Bileka (Ukr)
74 Antonio Cruz (USA)
75 Tom Danielson (USA)
76 Ryder Hesjedal (Can)
77 Benoit Joachim (Lux)
78 Jason Mccartney (USA)
79 Pavel Padrnos (Cze)

Pavel Padrnos was the only other "A" team member. Here is how Cyclingnews lead off their "Courage under fire: Savoldelli saves the day" race report in describing the penultimate stage 19:

"Totally isolated and left behind by the lead group with 40 kilometres to go, it seemed Paolo Savoldelli's time in the maglia rosa was facing certain death. However, a combination of guts, courage and cramping saw the race eventually swing back in his favour, and barring disaster, 'Il Falco' will fly into Milano tomorrow afternoon to claim overall victory in the 88th Giro d'Italia"

Savoldelli's closest teammate was 25 minutes back on stage 19... disappointing support for the penultimate stage.

source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//giro05/?id=results/giro0519

The Pro Tour was the best thing to ever happen to the Giro, prior to it the Giro would routinely have top level teams turn down invites (just like US Postal/Discovery did). Now it's a more important race and they are turning away the best teams? They are eating their young imo... On the upside, if the Giro continues to get back to the Italian only show it was a few years back then the Tour of California could re-schedule to May and add a couple days including a stage through Yosemite National Park and a bigger prize purse. A year or two of that and everyone will say "Giro de Where?"

The ProTour was only around for three years before the changes this year. Last year, 15 of the top 20 Giro GC riders were Italian. In 2004, the year before the ProTour started, 9 of the top 20 GC riders were Italian. Yaroslav Popovych was the raising star of the Giro before the ProTour came along. Since then, he hasn't been back. The Tour of California has only been around for three years (including this year). They've run a deficit of over $2 million in the first two years... and probably much worse after this year. The Giro has been around for over 90 years and continues to grow every year just like the Tour. Neither the Tour nor Giro will miss the old, mishandled ProTour setup.

Let's face it, the rumors and innuendo around Discovery/USPS and Brunyeel are yet another reason. Going to Astana just provided a somewhat "reasonable" excuse to take action when no real hard evidence was / is available.

True, but think about it. You go to a team that was just basically imploded itself the previous year due to doping charges, and people popping positive, and you think that all is going to be forgiven? Not unless you're a French team of course looking to get into the Tour, and of course JB has been under watch since day one when he showed up with Armstrong and won his first Tour.

There is hard evidence against Astana from last season, and this is what they're using.

Now if Astana gets bounced from le Tour, I'm sure that Contador, Levi, and others will be kicking themselves for sticking with the ailing ship.

You go to a team that was just basically imploded itself the previous year due to doping charges, and people popping positive, and you think that all is going to be forgiven?

But the Giro organizers' decision against Astana is well beyond the doping cloud (which, no question, is strike one) -- it's the quality of riders (or lack thereof) that Astana would have fielded at the Giro (strike two) plus the "new" leverage the Giro organizers hold following the virtual collapse of the ProTour (strike three) that resulted in Astana getting dropped. JB in recent interviews is yapping about how Astana far and away is the best team in cycling, and yet JB generally fields weak top-to-bottom Giro teams (with the exception of maybe the Disco 2006 Giro team in which JB tried to placate Savoldelli in his defense of his 2005 championship (which had a rather weak team)). It was clear to the Giro that Astana has three -- three -- legitimate TdF contenders, yet none are going to ride the Giro. If you're a GT organizer and you learn that one of your applicant teams -- a team you are no longer compelled to accept -- is slating Janez Brajkovic as its GC hopeful and saving Contador, Leipheimer and Kloden for the TdF, how would you feel?

JB took the Giro selection process for granted, and the message he just got is loud and clear.

It was clear to the Giro that Astana has three -- three -- legitimate TdF contenders, yet none are going to ride the Giro. If you're a GT organizer and you learn that one of your applicant teams -- a team you are no longer compelled to accept -- is slating Janez Brajkovic as its GC hopeful and saving Contador, Leipheimer and Kloden for the TdF, how would you feel?
True enough, but the ProTour was meant to take "feelings" out of the equation. World Champions, like Cipolini, were no longer to be excluded due to hurt feelings. Top-flite teams like Astana were no longer to be excluded due to hurt feelings. Business reasons would prevail, and everyone would be the richer for it.

I definitley believe the quality of competition has gone up at the Giro as a result of the ProTour mandate, even if teams were not sending their absolut best lineups. Somewhat the same thing can be said for the Spring Classics, in that the high-profile teams are all there with a strong showing.

The ProTour concept was a good one - no it was a great one. Assuring the highest-profile teams would be at all the big races would have raised the revenue tide for all involved (excluding for this argument the doping influence). It seems to have bogged down in egotistical arguing, IMO. The Grand Tours seemed to be amenable to 18 ProTour teams, leaving sufficient room for "feel good" invitationst to Continental teams. The UCI demanded over 20 teams and the gap could not be bridged.

Now, coupling the influence of dopoing scandal, there's no money for nobody.

JSR

71 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita)
72 Michael Barry (Can)
73 Volodymyr Bileka (Ukr)
74 Antonio Cruz (USA)
75 Tom Danielson (USA)
76 Ryder Hesjedal (Can)
77 Benoit Joachim (Lux)
78 Jason Mccartney (USA)
79 Pavel Padrnos (Cze)

Still not getting how anybody sees this as a weak team. Padrnos? Joachim? Barry, Cruz and Danielson? Unless a team is riding for Lance at the Tour they don't get much better than this. None of the other contender's teams were this strong.

ProTour was mishandled but I still say leaving out teams that have the highest financial commitment (Astana, CA, High Road) is a bad idea. The Giro was clearly a second teir race relative to the tour in terms of the talent it drew prior to the Pro Tour. During Pro Tour teams that would not have come to the Giro came, and came to win becuase the Pro Tour points were important to them. Without that influence I think we will see the Giro backslide.

True enough, but the ProTour was meant to take "feelings" out of the equation. World Champions, like Cipolini, were no longer to be excluded due to hurt feelings. Top-flite teams like Astana were no longer to be excluded due to hurt feelings. Business reasons would prevail, and everyone would be the richer for it.

The ProTour is effectively dead, and feelings are now very much a part of the Giro selection process. To wit (from cyclingnews.com): "Leaving out teams like Astana and High Road who are trying desperately to revive reputations tarnished by doping in 2007 was not entirely because of the doping issue, Zomegnan said, but because some teams do not seriously target the Giro. 'Contador [Astana] has always said that all he is interested in is the Tour de France, and for [Levi] Leipheimer, the Giro has always been about trying to prepare for the Tour. If our race is not part of their plans, then we just won't invite them.'"

71 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita)
72 Michael Barry (Can)
73 Volodymyr Bileka (Ukr)
74 Antonio Cruz (USA)
75 Tom Danielson (USA)
76 Ryder Hesjedal (Can)
77 Benoit Joachim (Lux)
78 Jason Mccartney (USA)
79 Pavel Padrnos (Cze)

Still not getting how anybody sees this as a weak team. Padrnos? Joachim? Barry, Cruz and Danielson? Unless a team is riding for Lance at the Tour they don't get much better than this. None of the other contender's teams were this strong.
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Actually, it is widely known that the 2005 Discovery Giro team was very weak. (After Savoldelli's 2005 win, Discovery did send a much better team in 2006.) You may recognize the names above, but that doesn't mean they were good enough at the time. The supporting cast had a lot of North American riders breaking onto the European scene.. Although, Savoldelli won the overall, Discovery finished a horrible 17th out of 22 in the team overall. That's even a worse supporting effort than the continental team "Team Alexia" provided for Savoldelli's first victory. As I said, Savoldelli's 2005 Discovery teammates were no where to be found in the critical mountain stages near the end of the 2005 race.

Salvodelli won against better, more aggressive opposition in 05'. This team was definitely not the Tour de France team but we must be fair, he did not win it without a team. He's good, he was never that good. Regardless, That team won the GC in 2005. Astana and High Road's organizations are regarded as the best stage racing teams in the world for the last decade. They should not have been left out in favor of a couple of teams that are not strong enough to see the front half of the group.

My point is simply that the Pro Tour boosted the credibility of the Giro to a level it had not had in many years and I think they are making a mistake by so easily letting go of it, especially since 5 years ago, they would have sent invitations to these teams and gotten turned down. Now the best teams actually want to go and not because the Pro Tour tells them they have to.

The Pro Tour Calendar is horrible, this season the Pro Tour "champion" will be crowned based on performance in races that for the most part doesn't include the biggest races in the sport. If you look at those races not on the calendar a hypothetical rider could have one of, if not the greatest season of all time and not be the Pro Tour winner.

As I said, Savoldelli's 2005 Discovery teammates were no where to be found in the critical mountain stages near the end of the 2005 race.

Agree. That 2005 Disco Giro team gave no mountain support for Savoldelli. Remember Danielson (the only real climber on that roster) DNF'd before stage 10, leaving Savoldellli to rely on Wim Van Huefel from Davitamon Lotto for help (then-Disco DS Sean Yates is close friends with the Davitamon DS and they cut a deal to help Savoldelli -- there was an excellent interview article on Sean Yates in Cycle Sport magazine about this arrangement; that's how desperate it got to find "help" for Savoldelli going into that epic stage to Sestrieres with the Colle della Finestre along the way).

And out of that entire Disco roster only Pavel Padrnos was a consistent TdF domestique. And he was the next highest-placed GC rider for Discovery, finishing over two hours back in 60th position. Pavel is a train-puller on the flat and intermediate stages, not a climber.