I was watching a documentary yesterday about the twin towers attacks. It had many more details than I recall being mentioned around the time of the massacre. It detailed much more of the horror experienced by the victims, like flesh being burned as they jumped from 90 floors up, being squashed by the falling debris, family members not knowing whether loved ones were safe. The physical destruction we described in full and appeared to be as bad as anything I've seen in my life, short of a nuclear bomb.

I think we need to remind ourselves once in a while about the horror of those attacks, and periodically or continually renew our committment to rid the world of those who would so hatefully destroy us and our way of life. We may not ever be able to rest or declare the war "won." We must root out the nutcases wherever they may be hiding, and either kill them or jail them, but in any event, render them unable to do these things, or worse, again.

If you get a chance, watch these documentaries and think about the horror, then the next time you get delayed a few minutes in the airport, you may consider the efforts well worth it.

Never forget.

I was watching a documentary yesterday about the twin towers attacks. It had many more details than I recall being mentioned around the time of the massacre. It detailed much more of the horror experienced by the victims, like flesh being burned as they jumped from 90 floors up, being squashed by the falling debris, family members not knowing whether loved ones were safe. The physical destruction we described in full and appeared to be as bad as anything I've seen in my life, short of a nuclear bomb.

I think we need to remind ourselves once in a while about the horror of those attacks, and periodically or continually renew our committment to rid the world of those who would so hatefully destroy us and our way of life. We may not ever be able to rest or declare the war "won." We must root out the nutcases wherever they may be hiding, and either kill them or jail them, but in any event, render them unable to do these things, or worse, again.

If you get a chance, watch these documentaries and think about the horror, then the next time you get delayed a few minutes in the airport, you may consider the efforts well worth it.

Never forget.

Not to take away from the horror of the Twin Towers attack, but the kind of atrocities you describe occur daily in places like Iraq, Israel and Sudan. Be grateful that you don't live in a place like that.

I'm all for interesting, informative, documentaries that keep people thinking about it, but if you showed that program in the middle east most people would probably have quite a different reaction than you did. Does that mean they are borderline nutcases and dangerous would be terrorists that need to rooted out, jailed or killed? Or is there something to their grievances. Our way of life, whatever that means these days, happens to be destructive to many far away people and cultures who may not share our version of history or our vision for the future.
A lot of them have been bombed recently, I'm sure they won't forget either.

A comprehensive review and re-vamping of U.S. foreign policy would go a long way to preventing future attacks in this country. If it hadn't of been for 50 years of meddling and setting up dictators in the middle east to exploit the natural resources of the region I dare say that 9/11 would ever have happened. We should learn a lesson from the Swiss and keep our nose in our own business and follow our forefathers advise and not get involved in foreign alliances.

. . .a daily viewing of a 2 minute montage of horrors committed by the Evil Ones. Naturally, participation will be voluntary but "expected". This should aid us all in maintaining the right state of mind.

. . .a daily viewing of a 2 minute montage of horrors committed by the Evil Ones. Naturally, participation will be voluntary but "expected". This should aid us all in maintaining the right state of mind.
Sort of like this? A bit of the old Ultraviolence?

A comprehensive review and re-vamping of U.S. foreign policy would go a long way to preventing future attacks in this country. If it hadn't of been for 50 years of meddling and setting up dictators in the middle east to exploit the natural resources of the region I dare say that 9/11 would ever have happened. We should learn a lesson from the Swiss and keep our nose in our own business and follow our forefathers advise and not get involved in foreign alliances.

So what you are saying is that the USA deserved 9/11. You and Jerry Falwell and a bunch of other nuts.

Okay, let's pretend you are correct, and American policy is the source (and cause) of all evil in the world. What did other countries do to deserve their attacks? Spain, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, et. al. Explain that, please. I'm really curious how America's 50-year history directly leads to a nightclub bombing in Indonesia targeted at Australians.

America is a blameless beacon of freedom and democracy. It always has been, and bears no responsibility for the world's ills.

A comprehensive review and re-vamping of U.S. foreign policy would go a long way to preventing future attacks in this country. If it hadn't of been for 50 years of meddling and setting up dictators in the middle east to exploit the natural resources of the region I dare say that 9/11 would ever have happened. We should learn a lesson from the Swiss and keep our nose in our own business and follow our forefathers advise and not get involved in foreign alliances.

It would be very interesting if you could define a foreign policy that you think would prevent future attacks. Please also explain how the Islamic religious fanatics will be pursuaded to live in peace with us. You know, the ones who believe that it is Allah's will to destroy the United States and that they will be blessed as martyrs if they help kill 4 million of us.

America is a blameless beacon of freedom and democracy. It always has been, and bears no responsibility for the world's ills.

I said nothing of the sort. And even if I did, so what? America is not the only country being attacked by terrorists. Explain to me why if America is so responsible, other countries are also being attacked. Let's get real. American foreign policy over the last 50 years is just a convenient rationalization for the terrorists. I don't see Chileans flying planes into buildings. I don't see Guatamalans blowing up car bombs. Supposedly Osama is still upset that Ferdinand and Isabella chased the Moors out of Spain in 1492. How far back are we going to go to dig up a grudge to justify attacks?

I have to explain that many foreign governments are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as surrogates for American power? I have to explain that terrorists are often content to attack opportune peripheral targets?

I have to explain that not all terrorists attacks are similarly motivated?

I have to explain that many foreign governments are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as surrogates for American power? I have to explain that terrorists are often content to attack opportune peripheral targets?

I have to explain that not all terrorists attacks are similarly motivated?

So they blew up a nightclub in Indonesia to kill Australians just to get back at the USA? I'll bet I can trace a line back to Kevin Bacon if I work at it hard enough.

It certainly is not mine.

It would be very interesting if you could define a foreign policy that you think would prevent future attacks. Please also explain how the Islamic religious fanatics will be pursuaded to live in peace with us. You know, the ones who believe that it is Allah's will to destroy the United States and that they will be blessed as martyrs if they help kill 4 million of us.

The day after 9/11 people were posting here to the effect that these things would not happen if the US was more conscious of how it's policies affected Muslims, implying that it was our own fault. I really despise that way of thinking -- blaming the victim.

9/11 was a criminal, war-like, hatred-motivated massacre. I could not care less what the Muslim extremists think of us. That's not the way to solve any perceived problem. They are pure nutcases (again, the extremists who think it's ok to murder thousand of civilians), and should be eliminated, one way or another. Yes, that's harsh, but we can't negotiate with these people. There is absolutely nothing we can do to appease them.

The day after 9/11 people were posting here to the effect that these things would not happen if the US was more conscious of how it's policies affected Muslims, implying that it was our own fault. I really despise that way of thinking -- blaming the victim.

9/11 was a criminal, war-like, hatred-motivated massacre. I could not care less what the Muslim extremists think of us. That's not the way to solve any perceived problem. They are pure nutcases (again, the extremists who think it's ok to murder thousand of civilians), and should be eliminated, one way or another. Yes, that's harsh, but we can't negotiate with these people. There is absolutely nothing we can do to appease them.


amen. and inaction on our part, or fighting the war on terror as a judicial problem, as kerry wants and clinton put in place, will seal our fate.

It would be very interesting if you could define a foreign policy that you think would prevent future attacks. Please also explain how the Islamic religious fanatics will be pursuaded to live in peace with us. You know, the ones who believe that it is Allah's will to destroy the United States and that they will be blessed as martyrs if they help kill 4 million of us.
Harry Browne has written an excellent piece if you'll take the time to objectively read it.
A lot of people hate us around the world and it would behove you to find out why.

As Usual, the Wrong Question Is Being Asked

by Harry Browne

April 9, 2004

Richard Clarke says the Bush administration was too focused on Iraq to see the 9-11 attack coming.

The Bush administration says Clarke is an opportunistic S.O.B. who once praised President Bush, but now criticizes Bush in order to boost sales of Clarke's book.

Which one is correct?

That's the burning question the press focuses on day after day after day. Everyone in radio, TV, or print publications seems to have a very firm answer to the question, one way or the other.

But if you have an answer, you've been snookered — maneuvered into pondering the wrong question.

The Real Issue

The 9-11 Commission is supposedly focusing on all aspects of the attack — all aspects except the one that is by far the most important question: why did the hijackers knowingly give up their lives to destroy the World Trade Center?

President Bush has a ready answer. He tells us it's because they hate American freedoms, American democracy, and American prosperity.

Of course, there are people around the world who are cranks, malcontents, or
Stars-and-Stripes-phobes who simply don't like America — for all kinds of reasons.

But how could any intelligent person believe that there are hundreds — more likely, thousands — of people around the world who would knowingly sacrifice their lives just to protest American freedom, democracy, or prosperity?

As Charley Reese has put it:

It is absurd to suppose that a human being sitting around suddenly stands up and says: "You know, I hate freedom. I think I'll go blow myself up."

The Motive

There was only one possible motive for the 9-11 attackers: they were protesting the way the American government has been using force for half a century to overrule the wishes of people in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Our government has overthrown democratically elected governments, it has supported with money and weapons dictatorial governments that have tortured and killed dissenters (just as George Bush keeps saying Saddam Hussein was doing), it has bribed foreign governments to join in enterprises of the U.S. government (as it did with Spain and tried to do with Turkey before Operation Kill Iraqis).

Because of very little press coverage, most Americans have no idea that our government has been doing these things. How many people know, for example, that Iran had a democratically elected government until the U.S. and British governments engineered a coup to install the tyrannical Shah of Iran in 1953?

Then there was all the U.S. government help to Diem in South Vietnam, Suharto in Indonesia, Somoza in Nicaragua, Batista in Cuba, Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, Stalin during World War II, Lumumba* in the Congo, Saddam Hussein in Iraq (yes, that Saddam Hussein), and dozens more tyrants — all of whom used American taxpayer money to oppress their own citizens.

Americans may not know about the support provided to these tyrants by the U.S. government, but I can assure you that plenty of people in those countries do know what our government has done to them.

Because Americans know so little about the history of our government's adventures of the last 50 years (and the last place anyone's likely to learn about them is in a government school), it's easy for Americans to buy George Bush's logic when he says, "See, these people hate freedom." Consequently, most people believe that the history of violence began on 9-11, when it's actually been building for 50 years.

It isn't even just history. Today George Bush is sending money and other resources to governments in Uzbekistan, Turkminestan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and Pakistan — governments that are oppressing their subjects in much the same way Hussein was supposed to have oppressed Iraq.

So if the 9-11 Commission has any interest in preventing future 9-11s, why isn't it discussing the role U.S. foreign policy played in creating 9-11 — and is continuing to play today?

Public Debate

Perhaps you don't agree with me. You may think our government was justified in everything it has done. Or maybe you think I'm overstating the importance of American support of oppressive foreign governments.

Fair enough. But you must admit that this is a legitimate issue to be debated. So why isn't the 9-11 Commission studying it? Why aren't journalists and TV hosts interviewing people on both sides of the question to help form opinions?

Why is there only one question to be debated on any issue? Why, for example, didn't any of the coverage of the Martha Stewart case focus on the question of whether insider trading actually hurts anyone? Why was there a debate about whether a juror's run-in with the police was grounds for a mistrial — when his after-trial statements demonstrated that he found Stewart guilty for something she wasn't even on trial for — a much more significant reason for a mistrial?

The press — including (especially) the TV experts — will usually focus on the wrong aspect of any case or issue. This is probably because reporters, journalists, and TV experts are mostly all big-government people. So the debate is about whether some politician handled something in the best possible way — rather than debating whether the government should have been involved at all.

And we play their game when we allow ourselves to debate the questions they're asking. As Thomas Pynchon said (in Gravity's Rainbow), "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers."

In almost all matters, the real question should be: why are we letting government handle this?

-------

*Patrice Lumumba was a Communist who studied in Moscow, and there's a university there that used to be named after him. When the Congo received its independence from Belgium in 1960, Lumumba became the Congo's leader. Katanga province, under the leadership of Moise Tshombe, tried to secede from the Congo. A war broke out. The United Nations, with the help of the U.S., sent troops to Katanga to put down the secession. The U.S. help was remarkable (although not that unusual) because Lumumba was pro-USSR and setting up a socialist government — while Tshombe was pro-US and wanting to establish a free market in Katanga. Why the U.S. supported the UN in putting down a pro-US movement, I'll probably never know — but it happened nonetheless.

Of course, as with so many other dictators the U.S. helped (such as Saddam Hussein or Manuel Noriega), the U.S. government eventually turned against Lumumba and may have been responsible for his death. When Mobutu Sésé Séko came to power in 1965, he set up a brutal regime. Of course, the United States government supported him as well.

They are pure nutcases (again, the extremists who think it's ok to murder thousand of civilians), and should be eliminated, one way or another. Yes, that's harsh, but we can't negotiate with these people. There is absolutely nothing we can do to appease them.Except for the "one way or another" part. That's what elections are for.

The day after 9/11 people were posting here to the effect that these things would not happen if the US was more conscious of how it's policies affected Muslims, implying that it was our own fault. I really despise that way of thinking -- blaming the victim.

9/11 was a criminal, war-like, hatred-motivated massacre. I could not care less what the Muslim extremists think of us. That's not the way to solve any perceived problem. They are pure nutcases (again, the extremists who think it's ok to murder thousand of civilians), and should be eliminated, one way or another. Yes, that's harsh, but we can't negotiate with these people. There is absolutely nothing we can do to appease them.
Our mistake as a nation in dealing with 9/11 is that we lost our course. We started in the right direction with Afghanastan but blew it when Dubya and friends started to play out their true agenda of 'finishing' the Gulf War.

I agree 100% in that there is no way to appease them. The terrorists see America as soft with no resolve or stomach for the wet work. The only thing they understand is violence and death and that is the only way to deal with them. Our response to attacks on American citizens needs to be immediate and absolute so as to clearly and consicely demonstrate the consequences of acts against our citizens. It needs to be so terrible that no one will want our wrath visited upon them, that no nation will want to harbor such types and will actively take steps to make sure they do not operate from within their borders knowing that to do so will rain destruction down upon them. It's kinda like the policy of Mutually Assured Destruction, except with the mutual part dropped.

That said, we also need to seriously change the way we operate on the world stage. We've, rightfully, lost a lot of respect and need to earn it back. But that is another topic.

Do I here Beethoven's 9th symphony playing???

I was watching a documentary yesterday about the twin towers attacks. It had many more details than I recall being mentioned around the time of the massacre. It detailed much more of the horror experienced by the victims, like flesh being burned as they jumped from 90 floors up, being squashed by the falling debris, family members not knowing whether loved ones were safe. The physical destruction we described in full and appeared to be as bad as anything I've seen in my life, short of a nuclear bomb.

I think we need to remind ourselves once in a while about the horror of those attacks, and periodically or continually renew our committment to rid the world of those who would so hatefully destroy us and our way of life. We may not ever be able to rest or declare the war "won." We must root out the nutcases wherever they may be hiding, and either kill them or jail them, but in any event, render them unable to do these things, or worse, again.

If you get a chance, watch these documentaries and think about the horror, then the next time you get delayed a few minutes in the airport, you may consider the efforts well worth it.

Never forget.

I think we need to remind ourselves every day that there are several million people living in Palestine who never know when the next Israeli helicopter raid is going to come by.

I think we need to remind ourselves daily that, although we treat Saudi Arabia as an ally, they continue to teach their children in religious schools there that we are the embodiment of evil.

I think we need to remind ourselves daily that, rather than contain Saddam Hussein and let him slowly wither away, we barged into a conflict that we could never win, and now we have created another impoverished breeding ground of anti-American hatred.

I think we need to remind ourselves daily that every freedom we give away in the name of "safety" means that Osama Bin Laden and his ilk have just come that much closer to their objective-the destruction of our way of life.

Remeber the words of Benjamin Franklin:

Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither.

.

.

Never forget.[/QUOTE]

Americans brought 9/11 upon themselves.
And boy did they get even!! How many women and children are going to have to die in Iraq for you to feel safe and vindicated??????

I think we need to remind ourselves once in a while about the horror of those attacks, and periodically or continually renew our committment to rid the world of those who would so hatefully destroy us and our way of life. We may not ever be able to rest or declare the war "won." We must root out the nutcases wherever they may be hiding, and either kill them or jail them, but in any event, render them unable to do these things, or worse, again.

I find it interesting that dissenters bring up all manner of straw man issues, but I don't see anyone responding directly to what Doug says above. People seek to cause us harm and we should aim to stop them from doing so, and we aren't above using force. I find Doug's statement entirely reasonable.

I find it interesting that dissenters bring up all manner of straw man issues, but I don't see anyone responding directly to what Doug says above. People seek to cause us harm and we should aim to stop them from doing so, and we aren't above using force. I find Doug's statement entirely reasonable.
Reasonable? To fight an unending war against terrorism? Maybe neccesary, but reasonable? Not in my opinion.

Rounding up the "nut cases" and killing them does no good unless you figure out what motivates these extremists to voluntarily kill themselves. By not looking at the underlying issues you only breed more of them. I am not saying that that YOU have to believe that their gripe is legitimate only that you realize that THEY believe it is legitimate. Legitimate enough to die for. If their point of view is flawed or wrong then educate them, killing them without explanation does not help, it just hurries up the next group with the same problem on their minds and the same solutions.

[QUOTE=banjoboy]Harry Browne has written an excellent piece if you'll take the time to objectively read it.

The Motive

There was only one possible motive for the 9-11 attackers: they were protesting the way the American government has been using force for half a century to overrule the wishes of people in the Middle East and elsewhere.
QUOTE]

From the Koran: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

The terrorists are fanatical religious nuts, not people making a rational decision to kill themselves in protest of American foreign policy. This is a cult fighting a 500 year old war, or more accurately, a 1700 year old war. It is a fatally flawed analysis that does not address the problem of the religious fundementalism driving these events.

Legitimate enough to die for. If their point of view is flawed or wrong then educate them, killing them without explanation does not help, it just hurries up the next group with the same problem on their minds and the same solutions.

Muslims hate the world, they beleive by dying through killing non -muslims, they will go to heaven and get a bunch of virgins. There is no getting though to these a-holes. Its either get them or they will get us.

Muslims hate the world, they beleive by dying through killing non -muslims, they will go to heaven and get a bunch of virgins. There is no getting though to these a-holes. Its either get them or they will get us.
All blacks like rap music too, right? You scare me.

[QUOTE=banjoboy]Harry Browne has written an excellent piece if you'll take the time to objectively read it.

The Motive

There was only one possible motive for the 9-11 attackers: they were protesting the way the American government has been using force for half a century to overrule the wishes of people in the Middle East and elsewhere.
QUOTE]

From the Koran: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

The terrorists are fanatical religious nuts, not people making a rational decision to kill themselves in protest of American foreign policy. This is a cult fighting a 500 year old war, or more accurately, a 1700 year old war. It is a fatally flawed analysis that does not address the problem of the religious fundementalism driving these events.


I could give you a lot of scripture from the Old Testament that is just as violent. The fact is untill about 50yrs ago we were beloved in the Arab world. Why don't you take the time to investigate and find out whats changed.

You scare me.

GOOD! :cool:

I could give you a lot of scripture from the Old Testament that is just as violent. The fact is untill about 50yrs ago we were beloved in the Arab world. Why don't you take the time to investigate and find out whats changed.

I agree that the Old Testament can be used to inspire violent radical groups also, such as the Kahane movement. However, the Islamic Fundementalists radical terrorists are larger, more powerful, and are directly threatening our security. The history of these groups pre-date the establishment of Israel. If it wasn't Isreal and the U.S., these groups would be focused on conquering Spain. Again, any analysis that doesn't begin with the religious beliefs of these people is simply wishful thinking.

I also agree that most Arabs strongly dislike the U.S. government, and historical US actions contribute to this dislike, but it is only a very small percentage of radical Islamic fundementalists that embrace terror, hate the infidels, and want to kill us. Their literature is filled with passages from the Koran, not with a history of American foreign policy.

You guys are absolutely right, the average Saudi would be much better off today if we had never explored for oil there and dates were still their number one export. Millions of Saudis would not even be alive today or would have never even have been born if it were not for the enviromental adaptation their/our oil money made possible.

...... that the Enemy busted Camp David first, then for a fortnight hit New York, bombing CBS & NBC and shelling the Plaza Hotel where some "unhelpful" foreign journalists were staying. The Enemy took out New Yorks electricity, phones and water and, after tanks rumbled down 5th Avenue, looting began.

The Museum of Modern Art was trashed, as was the Smithsonian Institute and the Lincoln Centre, and robbers unhindered tore up banknotes theived from Chase Manhattan. The Statue of Liberty was brought down, the Rushmore faces smashed in, the Lincoln memorial beheaded and the Thomas Jefferson mansion Monticello was fouled by unsanitory Arab soldiers who burned the paintings and took home bathroom taps as souvenirs.

Targeted bombing raids took out the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas, the former Bush home in suburban Midland, the Governor's mansion in Tallahassee, Florida, the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, and the flat shared by the twin Bush daughters. Neil Bush was almost certainly killed when a restaurant he was eating at was bombed, but it was feared that some of the infamous family were still alive and had got away to Mexico. That country was quickly warned it must forthwith give up its fugitive Bushes to war crimes trials in Mecca, or itslef endure invasion.

Within three weeks New York, Washington, Boston and Chicago were said to have been "liberated" after fearsome bombardment and bringing their hospitals to rubble, and the Arab troops were cheerfully, noisily greeted by thousands of poor young black men, lately become Black Muslims and hailing a glad new day of freedom. "Pockets of Resistance" in the richer susburbs continued, however, with sporadic shelling and sniper attacks on the invaders. There were paradoxical dissenting demonstrations both in favor of George W. Bush's assasination and against Arab occupying forces, plus a growing fear that an Islamist Theocracy was not a suitable system, or at least not yet, for America. "What's worng with these people?" asked Saddam Hussein. "We've saved them from a tyrant. We've brought Allah into their lives. They should be more grateful." Saddam was still visibly confounded that their occupation was resented but remained resolute in his conviction that the Invasion of America was crucial especially after Germany had flown it's blimps into the Holy Mosque in Mecca ................


Then I woke up, disturbed & unsettled.

People listen here. The malevolents that brought down the twin towers are Un-Muslim extremists. I would have no qualms should I hear that they were nuked to high heaven. They deserve it. However we must all begin to understand that the overwhelming majority of people of the muslim faith aren't very dissimilar to ourselves and wish for nothing but to raise their children in good health, ensure themselves with needs for comfort and security, wish for only fair and democratic treatment, and bring forward the world with the same. Get to know an Arab, get to know a Muslim; understand that your fears and prejudices are unfounded and only enacting harm & further divison.

The world is small. Smaller every day. There is no such thing as Foreign Policy anymore as every decision any nations make inadvertantly affects other nations and trickles through domestic boundaries. Also toke note of the Dalai Lama simply announcing that war is outdated. It doesn't work and is an inneffective tool which only worsens situations that were intended to resolve or change. Really think hard about the seriousness of what it means to have your leaders vote to go to war and what a grave act that is, especially without consent of other nations, and the UN. Nothing that was set out to be achieved has come to fruition and the fundamental reason we went to war, or so we were told, was on the basis of Weapons of Mass Destruction, of which, lo and behold, none have been found. What irrational dictator would destroy his most powerful weapons just before the invasion of his country ??? How many of your sons need to die & how many more enemies do you need to make before admission that mistakes were made. Nixon was axed for peanuts compared to this, especially now that we see the bigger mess we have made, not in the least how many Un-Muslim extremists we have converted to join the madmen willing to terrorise unlawfully. Given our past incursions in the area should we be surprised by their growing distrust and dissent? A dog that has been kicked all it's life won't come to you without fear when you wave a big bone about with a smile.

The comming election is your only means of referendum to weigh up your dissent of being lied to and led into further darkness. Nothing the current leaders have done has brought understanding & fostered a smaller more peaceful world for yourselves or those who seemingly oppose you. You are no safer now than you were just 3 short years ago ... if anything more hatred, distrust & cause for vengeance has added on your doorstep. And you have lost your own sons. To think that your leaders have not seen the light & recognised the severity of their decisions in light of such shocking wake up calls. I see a backpedaling government that is unblinkered in its path to ill decisions and the problems just keep growing. In fact, if one would look at their agenda's throughout history and what nations they have meddled in for various ill thought motives, one would assume it's only sequentialy correct following suit to fix problems by creating bigger ones and then take further issue when those ill-thought out chickens come home to roost. The problem isn't going away and the people you have entrusted with your votes are just making it worse ...... If only it were a badly scripted movie or a dream .....

That thousands of innocent people were killed by madmen on 9/11 is a great shame, that since then supposedly sane men sent forth our own to be killed along with others whom they wished to bring peace for is an even bigger shame. We shouldn't keep living in further fear whilst blindly supporting leaders who have done nothing but add fuel to our nightmares. There are many better ways to bring peace to us all. We are all responsible for the difficult questions our children ask us.

Seek the truth, know that your media is just another spin-doctor with endless charades, keep asking questions, demand sane action and most of all, it matters not who you vote for, so much as, what you vote for..

I love you all. I pray for some of you more than others .....



ciao

...... that the Enemy busted Camp David first, then for a fortnight hit New York, bombing CBS & NBC and shelling the Plaza Hotel where some "unhelpful" foreign journalists were staying. The Enemy took out New Yorks electricity, phones and water and, after tanks rumbled down 5th Avenue, looting began.

The Museum of Modern Art was trashed, as was the Smithsonian Institute and the Lincoln Centre, and robbers unhindered tore up banknotes theived from Chase Manhattan. The Statue of Liberty was brought down, the Rushmore faces smashed in, the Lincoln memorial beheaded and the Thomas Jefferson mansion Monticello was fouled by unsanitory Arab soldiers who burned the paintings and took home bathroom taps as souvenirs.

Targeted bombing raids took out the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas, the former Bush home in suburban Midland, the Governor's mansion in Tallahassee, Florida, the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, and the flat shared by the twin Bush daughters. Neil Bush was almost certainly killed when a restaurant he was eating at was bombed, but it was feared that some of the infamous family were still alive and had got away to Mexico. That country was quickly warned it must forthwith give up its fugitive Bushes to war crimes trials in Mecca, or itslef endure invasion.

Within three weeks New York, Washington, Boston and Chicago were said to have been "liberated" after fearsome bombardment and bringing their hospitals to rubble, and the Arab troops were cheerfully, noisily greeted by thousands of poor young black men, lately become Black Muslims and hailing a glad new day of freedom. "Pockets of Resistance" in the richer susburbs continued, however, with sporadic shelling and sniper attacks on the invaders. There were paradoxical dissenting demonstrations both in favor of George W. Bush's assasination and against Arab occupying forces, plus a growing fear that an Islamist Theocracy was not a suitable system, or at least not yet, for America. "What's worng with these people?" asked Saddam Hussein. "We've saved them from a tyrant. We've brought Allah into their lives. They should be more grateful." Saddam was still visibly confounded that their occupation was resented but remained resolute in his conviction that the Invasion of America was crucial especially after Germany had flown it's blimps into the Holy Mosque in Mecca ................


Then I woke up, disturbed & unsettled.

People listen here. The malevolents that brought down the twin towers are Un-Muslim extremists. I would have no qualms should I hear that they were nuked to high heaven. They deserve it. However we must all begin to understand that the overwhelming majority of people of the muslim faith aren't very dissimilar to ourselves and wish for nothing but to raise their children in good health, ensure themselves with needs for comfort and security, wish for only fair and democratic treatment, and bring forward the world with the same. Get to know an Arab, get to know a Muslim; understand that your fears and prejudices are unfounded and only enacting harm & further divison.

The world is small. Smaller every day. There is no such thing as Foreign Policy anymore as every decision any nations make inadvertantly affects other nations and trickles through domestic boundaries. Also toke note of the Dalai Lama simply announcing that war is outdated. It doesn't work and is an inneffective tool which only worsens situations that were intended to resolve or change. Really think hard about the seriousness of what it means to have your leaders vote to go to war and what a grave act that is, especially without consent of other nations, and the UN. Nothing that was set out to be achieved has come to fruition and the fundamental reason we went to war, or so we were told, was on the basis of Weapons of Mass Destruction, of which, lo and behold, none have been found. What irrational dictator would destroy his most powerful weapons just before the invasion of his country ??? How many of your sons need to die & how many more enemies do you need to make before admission that mistakes were made. Nixon was axed for peanuts compared to this, especially now that we see the bigger mess we have made, not in the least how many Un-Muslim extremists we have converted to join the madmen willing to terrorise unlawfully. Given our past incursions in the area should we be surprised by their growing distrust and dissent? A dog that has been kicked all it's life won't come to you without fear when you wave a big bone about with a smile.

The comming election is your only means of referendum to weigh up your dissent of being lied to and led into further darkness. Nothing the current leaders have done has brought understanding & fostered a smaller more peaceful world for yourselves or those who seemingly oppose you. You are no safer now than you were just 3 short years ago ... if anything more hatred, distrust & cause for vengeance has added on your doorstep. And you have lost your own sons. To think that your leaders have not seen the light & recognised the severity of their decisions in light of such shocking wake up calls. I see a backpedaling government that is unblinkered in its path to ill decisions and the problems just keep growing. In fact, if one would look at their agenda's throughout history and what nations they have meddled in for various ill thought motives, one would assume it's only sequentialy correct following suit to fix problems by creating bigger ones and then take further issue when those ill-thought out chickens come home to roost. The problem isn't going away and the people you have entrusted with your votes are just making it worse ...... If only it were a badly scripted movie or a dream .....

That thousands of innocent people were killed by madmen on 9/11 is a great shame, that since then supposedly sane men sent forth our own to be killed along with others whom they wished to bring peace for is an even bigger shame. We shouldn't keep living in further fear whilst blindly supporting leaders who have done nothing but add fuel to our nightmares. There are many better ways to bring peace to us all. We are all responsible for the difficult questions our children ask us.

Seek the truth, know that your media is just another spin-doctor with endless charades, keep asking questions, demand sane action and most of all, it matters not who you vote for, so much as, what you vote for..

I love you all. I pray for some of you more than others .....



ciao


It's also not prejudice to see that their are virtually no women's rights and severly limited personal freedoms in the mainsteam Islamic cultures of the Mideast, and that the "unmuslim extremist" have significant support from some people in the Muslim mainstream. We can't just gather round the campfire and sing Kumbya.

...... that the Enemy busted Camp David first, then for a fortnight hit New York, bombing CBS & NBC and shelling the Plaza Hotel where some "unhelpful" foreign journalists were staying. The Enemy took out New Yorks electricity, phones and water and, after tanks rumbled down 5th Avenue, looting began.

The Museum of Modern Art was trashed, as was the Smithsonian Institute and the Lincoln Centre, and robbers unhindered tore up banknotes theived from Chase Manhattan. The Statue of Liberty was brought down, the Rushmore faces smashed in, the Lincoln memorial beheaded and the Thomas Jefferson mansion Monticello was fouled by unsanitory Arab soldiers who burned the paintings and took home bathroom taps as souvenirs.

Targeted bombing raids took out the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas, the former Bush home in suburban Midland, the Governor's mansion in Tallahassee, Florida, the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, and the flat shared by the twin Bush daughters. Neil Bush was almost certainly killed when a restaurant he was eating at was bombed, but it was feared that some of the infamous family were still alive and had got away to Mexico. That country was quickly warned it must forthwith give up its fugitive Bushes to war crimes trials in Mecca, or itslef endure invasion.

Within three weeks New York, Washington, Boston and Chicago were said to have been "liberated" after fearsome bombardment and bringing their hospitals to rubble, and the Arab troops were cheerfully, noisily greeted by thousands of poor young black men, lately become Black Muslims and hailing a glad new day of freedom. "Pockets of Resistance" in the richer susburbs continued, however, with sporadic shelling and sniper attacks on the invaders. There were paradoxical dissenting demonstrations both in favor of George W. Bush's assasination and against Arab occupying forces, plus a growing fear that an Islamist Theocracy was not a suitable system, or at least not yet, for America. "What's worng with these people?" asked Saddam Hussein. "We've saved them from a tyrant. We've brought Allah into their lives. They should be more grateful." Saddam was still visibly confounded that their occupation was resented but remained resolute in his conviction that the Invasion of America was crucial especially after Germany had flown it's blimps into the Holy Mosque in Mecca ................


Then I woke up, disturbed & unsettled.

People listen here. The malevolents that brought down the twin towers are Un-Muslim extremists. I would have no qualms should I hear that they were nuked to high heaven. They deserve it. However we must all begin to understand that the overwhelming majority of people of the muslim faith aren't very dissimilar to ourselves and wish for nothing but to raise their children in good health, ensure themselves with needs for comfort and security, wish for only fair and democratic treatment, and bring forward the world with the same. Get to know an Arab, get to know a Muslim; understand that your fears and prejudices are unfounded and only enacting harm & further divison.

The world is small. Smaller every day. There is no such thing as Foreign Policy anymore as every decision any nations make inadvertantly affects other nations and trickles through domestic boundaries. Also toke note of the Dalai Lama simply announcing that war is outdated. It doesn't work and is an inneffective tool which only worsens situations that were intended to resolve or change. Really think hard about the seriousness of what it means to have your leaders vote to go to war and what a grave act that is, especially without consent of other nations, and the UN. Nothing that was set out to be achieved has come to fruition and the fundamental reason we went to war, or so we were told, was on the basis of Weapons of Mass Destruction, of which, lo and behold, none have been found. What irrational dictator would destroy his most powerful weapons just before the invasion of his country ??? How many of your sons need to die & how many more enemies do you need to make before admission that mistakes were made. Nixon was axed for peanuts compared to this, especially now that we see the bigger mess we have made, not in the least how many Un-Muslim extremists we have converted to join the madmen willing to terrorise unlawfully. Given our past incursions in the area should we be surprised by their growing distrust and dissent? A dog that has been kicked all it's life won't come to you without fear when you wave a big bone about with a smile.

The comming election is your only means of referendum to weigh up your dissent of being lied to and led into further darkness. Nothing the current leaders have done has brought understanding & fostered a smaller more peaceful world for yourselves or those who seemingly oppose you. You are no safer now than you were just 3 short years ago ... if anything more hatred, distrust & cause for vengeance has added on your doorstep. And you have lost your own sons. To think that your leaders have not seen the light & recognised the severity of their decisions in light of such shocking wake up calls. I see a backpedaling government that is unblinkered in its path to ill decisions and the problems just keep growing. In fact, if one would look at their agenda's throughout history and what nations they have meddled in for various ill thought motives, one would assume it's only sequentialy correct following suit to fix problems by creating bigger ones and then take further issue when those ill-thought out chickens come home to roost. The problem isn't going away and the people you have entrusted with your votes are just making it worse ...... If only it were a badly scripted movie or a dream .....

That thousands of innocent people were killed by madmen on 9/11 is a great shame, that since then supposedly sane men sent forth our own to be killed along with others whom they wished to bring peace for is an even bigger shame. We shouldn't keep living in further fear whilst blindly supporting leaders who have done nothing but add fuel to our nightmares. There are many better ways to bring peace to us all. We are all responsible for the difficult questions our children ask us.

Seek the truth, know that your media is just another spin-doctor with endless charades, keep asking questions, demand sane action and most of all, it matters not who you vote for, so much as, what you vote for..

I love you all. I pray for some of you more than others .....



ciao

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Bush has sent US soldiers into the Middle East who have saved hundreds of thousands of Muslims. Taken out hundreds of nut jobs who are just looking for any reason to hate are kill. So go ahead and spin if you like. Because Kerry has certainly tried to spin it which ever way the win blows on any given day.

Since Most of you that have negitive comments on the present situation in Iraq and America's foreign policy have never ACTUALLY met any of this nice people the middle east, let alone been over there, let me give you a little insight. I have recently spent a 13 month deployment over there as a extension of America's foreign policy (read US Army) Even if they had NO oil, they would STILL be at war with us. Why? Because we supported the freedom of Israel to exist. The general arab population dislikes us at a minimum and hates us as the norm. This country has supported freedom almost every opportunity. Does that get us detractors and enemies, yes, but is what they call the cost of freedom. Too many of the peace love and ignorance crowd thinks that we can reason and solve all these issues by giving them lots of foreign aid and love. Don't kill those bad people even though they have waged a war of terror against us and the reset of the western civilizaiton, we want them to LIKE us. Well Kiddies, most of these people still have a 12th century mind set. What they don't like, they try to kill. It doesn't leave a lot open for diplomacy. Kill them and beat them down so they can't harm any more Americans. THAT my friends is the only thing these people will understand.

Since Most of you that have negitive comments on the present situation in Iraq and America's foreign policy have never ACTUALLY met any of this nice people the middle east, let alone been over there, let me give you a little insight. I have recently spent a 13 month deployment over there as a extension of America's foreign policy (read US Army) Even if they had NO oil, they would STILL be at war with us. Why? Because we supported the freedom of Israel to exist. The general arab population dislikes us at a minimum and hates us as the norm. This country has supported freedom almost every opportunity. Does that get us detractors and enemies, yes, but is what they call the cost of freedom. Too many of the peace love and ignorance crowd thinks that we can reason and solve all these issues by giving them lots of foreign aid and love. Don't kill those bad people even though they have waged a war of terror against us and the reset of the western civilizaiton, we want them to LIKE us. Well Kiddies, most of these people still have a 12th century mind set. What they don't like, they try to kill. It doesn't leave a lot open for diplomacy. Kill them and beat them down so they can't harm any more Americans. THAT my friends is the only thing these people will understand.

That is quite a case of myopia you have there, perhaps a quick trip to the optomatrist and then off to a surgeon to have those blinders removed, have a little nip and tuck while your at it.

. . .and was never going to get them.

. . .and was never going to get them.

Or what means he was trying to get. As a result of losing a war of aggression, he was under UN sanctions to account for his weapons and programs, which he refused to do. His stated intent was to inflict harm on the U.S. The only way to determine if he had this capability or was aquiring it was to destroy his regime. No amount of sanctions or searching could have proven tht he did not have some capability to inflict great harm upon us, which he had sworn to do.

Nobody you wanted to listen to, perhaps.

Nobody you wanted to listen to, perhaps.

A few who weren't listened to had doubts, but nobody knew prior to the invasion.

But prior to the invasion, many in the US were skeptical of Saddam's capabilities. Scott Ritter for one, presaged the post invasion "revalations" about Saddam's long dismantled and decrepit aresenal. Like many, he was "discredited" by neocons, not by refuting his contentions but by smearing him personally and questioning his sympathies. He was in a better postion to know what Saddam's capabilites were than the consipracy theorists "informing" the President. And in the end, he was right.

Reasonable? To fight an unending war against terrorism? Maybe neccesary, but reasonable? Not in my opinion.

You see, this is where Doug and I disagree (to the best of my understanding). I do believe we should go after the terrorist, but I don't think we should use the military against nation states to do it. So, I think it is reasonable to root out the terrorists, but not wise to do it with the full military apparatus.

But prior to the invasion, many in the US were skeptical of Saddam's capabilities. Scott Ritter for one, presaged the post invasion "revalations" about Saddam's long dismantled and decrepit aresenal. Like many, he was "discredited" by neocons, not by refuting his contentions but by smearing him personally and questioning his sympathies. He was in a better postion to know what Saddam's capabilites were than the consipracy theorists "informing" the President. And in the end, he was right.

I think that Sadam had to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he had no weapons of mass destruction. Apparently, you think that the U.S. had to prove beyond reasonable doubt theat Sadam had weapons of mass destruction. I have a littel faith in our government. I don't hink you do.

I'm glad to hear that you only have a little faith in our government. You think that it was up to Saddam to prove a negative? That is simply absurd.

Forget whether we <i>ever</i> dig up some stockpile of musty old (and expired) anthrax munitions. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam did not pose a threat to the United States. He could barely mount a defense of his own country! Billions at his personal disposal, and he was caught hiding in a hole in the ground. This is a man who can't be trusted not to try to take over the entire world?

Saddam may have been no threat as far as wmd but what about economically? It seems like there hasn't been much about it lately but there were some articles a while back that were pretty interesting explaining how Saddam had been able to aquire a lot more economic leverage than anyone thought possible and was switching from US dollars to Euros for Iraqs oil dealings. At the time most people just thought it was his small way of getting back at the US, and in the process loosings millions, but then the dollar fell, and the euro rose. Whatever the reasons for that were, and maybe it had something to do with 911, his crazy gamble paid off. With the euro strengthening, Sadamm having broken the ice, and much of the rest of the oil region disgusted with the sanctions and the US, others were talking about doing the same. I don't know what effect a large scale switch from oil dollars to oil euros would have but it seems a lot more likely threat to than wmd or the other justifications for the war.

Remind ourselves that Israelis wait everyday in fear of another ****/suicide bomber blowing up another bus load of school children.

"Contain" Sadam....Hmmmm anyone remember what happened in Iraq in about 1981?....uh anyone? Buehler? Those terrible Israelis blew up a nuclear reactor that was fixing to go online....engineered and build by who?.....anyone? Our pals the French....with friends like that.....

Now, do you think our buddy Sadam would have abided by the the UN nuclear nonproliferation pact? SURE he would. The Israelis blew them and their French engineers to hell our of sure self-preservation. If they had'nt, we would probably have Sadam, his satanic nutcase sons or Osama holding the world hostage with nuclear weapons.

And you want us to feel their pain and have self loathing because America's foreign policies were imperfect and the non-communist actors we supported were not all decent human beings. Pullese...the vast majority of the arab world is illiterate and only knows of America by way of our nation is what they see on CNN, MTV (which is a pretty pathetic representation of America). and the rest, and what their Emams tell them. They just want someone to blame for their culture and economy still living in 12th century ideals.

But you just can't see it or admit to it. Even the administration is afraid to say it out loud.

What most people, especially the left, fail to get is this; The terrorist acts commited by muslims terrorist upon the western world and their allies have not been because of America's foreign policy, former military actions or what we have done in the past.

IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE JUDEO/CHRISTIAN AKA INFIDELS !!! In their culture and religion they are taught to hate and fear us and that we must be destroyed. This war has been going on since the crusades...think about it. America is the icon for the Christian/Western culture, ergo we are the target of their hate. As a previous poster stated earlier, you don't see any other countries or cultures that were subject to our foreign policy mistakes flying airplanes into buildings or blowing up school bus loads of children.

Even if America had never set foot in the middle east, we would have this fight. It would always come to this because of this centuries old conflict. The muslim political/religious leaders will always lead their subjects/followers to hate and attack us.

Do we we in the 21st century western world want a religious war? Of course not. Most people in America can't fathom it. The muslim extremist can and do every day. We are the most recent victims of this religious war. America and the rest of the western world has drifted so far from their religious ideals that I don't think most would support any type of conflict that would protect judeo/christian beliefs. The left would actual FIGHT AND DIE to protest anyone standing up and fighting for their religious values. The left would sit by and watch us be destroyed than to say I believe in Christ or God and am not going to let you destroy me because I believe in them. It is a pathetic truth of the situation.

We will continue to fight this war on terror, well as at least as W is in charge. If Horse Head gets elected, we will withdraw from the fight, sit home and wait for the next car bomb, plane bomb, dirty/gas bomb to kill our citizens. It will be ugly. And we will only have people like the left wing to thank.

Ever been there? Take a convoy of trucks, a few bull dozers and I could bury the entire AMERCIAN inventory of nuclear weapons and you would never find them...never. The places are so vast and landscape so changing and featureless, you could never find them if you did want some one to.

Did anyone even WATCH the reporting of brother Ritter's pathetic hunt for weapons? All the informing of the next intended inspection sites, the denied areas, the whole farce? You mean to tell me that these actions were not of some one who had something to hide?

Months prior to the invasion, there were hundreds convoys of trucks coming in and out of Syria. We watched it on satellite and sensor feeds. Of course we could not intercept them, but do you think,,,maybe,,,just maybe there could been WMDs in those trucks?

Since Syria and Iraq and been brokering all kind of deals for WMD and WMD technology from none other than our pals the Germans and French, and the fact that we DID intercept hundreds of millions of dollars, literally semi-truck loads, going into Syria after the start of the war, do you think that MAYBE they took a few WMDs to hold for old brother Sadam? Did all you guys miss that?

. . .

Do we we in the 21st century western world want a religious war? Of course not. Most people in America can't fathom it. The muslim extremist can and do every day. We are the most recent victims of this religious war. America and the rest of the western world has drifted so far from their religious ideals that I don't think most would support any type of conflict that would protect judeo/christian beliefs. The left would actual FIGHT AND DIE to protest anyone standing up and fighting for their religious values. The left would sit by and watch us be destroyed than to say I believe in Christ or God and am not going to let you destroy me because I believe in them. It is a pathetic truth of the situation.

We will continue to fight this war on terror, well as at least as W is in charge. If Horse Head gets elected, we will withdraw from the fight, sit home and wait for the next car bomb, plane bomb, dirty/gas bomb to kill our citizens. It will be ugly. And we will only have people like the left wing to thank.
As much as religion and/or the belief in any sort of divinity disgusts me, I would fight to protect the right of my fellow citizens to so believe.

The current "war on terror" is a joke. We went to Iraq when we should have stayed the course in Afghanastan. We ignore N. Korea -- a nation that actually has a REAL nuclear program. We ignore the fact that most of the terrorists are Saudi nationals, backed by Suadi money. We have borders that an army can and does march right on through undetected each and every day. Sounds like we're trying real hard.

Yup, Iraq is the place to start. It sure has boosted Haliburton's revenue stream though.

Why on earth didn't we attack Saudi Arabia instead and ferret out the terrorists in their homes??? And why on earth, if we were going to go to war with Iraq didn't we just level it as an example of what happens to our enemies? It would have been cheaper and more effective.

Kerry may not be the man for the job but Bush definitely isn't -- continuing to fight the wrong war is, well, wrong. Iraq is the wrong war.