http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell36.html

There is lots of name calling going on from both sides of the war issue. Here is a piece that is reasoned with what I believe to have a non partisan spirit about it. I for one am a veteran of eight years of military service and I am 100% against this Iraq war and occupation. I am a member of the Libertarian party. I am not against war if truly in defense of the Nation but I believe our current President has far outstepped his boundries.

I would say that one can support the troops while opposing the war. One can appreciate and support the troops for their sacrifice, dedication and effort - and want to provide them with what they need in combat and as veterans - without supporting the flawed rationale for sending them into combat.

The Right would argue that's nonsense, because they tie support for the President & his policies to supporting the troops. They ask rhetorically "how can you support the troops without supporting the war?" Of course, they would not have said that their opposition to involvement in Bosnia & Kosovo equated to not supporting the troops, so it's just conventional Rightwing rhetorical hypocrisy.

Stated support for the troops seeks to avoid the terrible mistake that protesters against the Vietnam War made in mocking and attacking returning troops. The troops did not establish the policy that the protesters opposed. Mocking the troops was simply wrong, on many levels.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell36.html

There is lots of name calling going on from both sides of the war issue. Here is a piece that is reasoned with what I believe to have a non partisan spirit about it. I for one am a veteran of eight years of military service and I am 100% against this Iraq war and occupation. I am a member of the Libertarian party. I am not against war if truly in defense of the Nation but I believe our current President has far outstepped his boundries.

I was never for sending them over there in the first place -- even back in 91. I don't think there's anything over there that is worth even a single American soldier's blood. So, what do we do now that they are there? We've already lost all international credibility and the rest of the world is rightfully thumbing their noses at us saying "We told you so." We really have no other honorable course but to finish our little excercise in nation building as distasteful and unAmerican as it is.

I was never for sending them over there in the first place -- even back in 91. I don't think there's anything over there that is worth even a single American soldier's blood. So, what do we do now that they are there? We've already lost all international credibility and the rest of the world is rightfully thumbing their noses at us saying "We told you so." We really have no other honorable course but to finish our little excercise in nation building as distasteful and unAmerican as it is.

I agree with your comments my friend. However, we need to be looking for an exit as soon as possible even if it means dumping foolish pride and asking for international help. This is a sorry thing that has been done to the Iraqi people.

However, we need to be looking for an exit as soon as possible even if it means dumping foolish pride and asking for international help.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Bush to do it anytime soon - it's not gonna happen.

The lefts fringes are starting to speak up after swallowing the bitter warriorfest pill they called the Democratic National Convention. I read today in the Sacramento News and Review an opinion by a contributor (not a guy off the street) that America's soldiers need to begin accepting responsibility for their actions as they volunteered to serve in our armed forces. The left faces an agonizing delema, a lot on the fringe really do despise soldiers, but that position is a huge loser among the general population.

The right's fringes will need to start accepting the reality that as more and more Iraq vets hit the streets in the U.S., it was the right that was gung-ho in sending these people off to be maimed and killed for "Iraq freedom & democracy" in the name of GWB. The right faces an agonizing dilemma, a lot on the fringe really do like 'TV war' at a safe distance, but the resultant casualties and caskets returning to Dover becomes a huge loser among the general population.

I read today in the Sacramento News and Review an opinion by a contributor (not a guy off the street) that America's soldiers need to begin accepting responsibility for their actions as they volunteered to serve in our armed forces. The left faces an agonizing delema, a lot on the fringe really do despise soldiers, but that position is a huge loser among the general population.

Hmmm.. An article by one guy and you say "a lot on the fringe really do despise soldiers." Is that one person alot, or is this just more Repub talking point dogma? Please post the news articles and web sites substantiating your position that "lots" on the fringe left "despise" soldiers. I'd like to see it if it's there. If it's not there, it's just another Repub Lie.

I was a soldier. I'm a leftist. But I don't think my friends, relatives, neighbors, or associates 'despise' me for being either, even the left-leaning ones.

However, many of them including myself despise the Iraq conflict and the Bush administration for getting us into it.


Units I proudly served in:

U.S. Army, enlisted 1980-84 - III Corps - "Counterattack Corps" / America's Hammer, 1st Cavalry Division - "First Team", 312th Military Intelligence Battalion - "Silent Warriors", 191st Military Intelligence Company. MOS 96B (Intelligence Analyst); various III Corps assignments; 2 years Inactive Reserve.

As difficult as it may be for some of you to comprehend, one CAN be active military or ex-military and NOT support every conflict that a CinC or Congress wishes to engage in.

Hmmm.. An article by one guy and you say "a lot on the fringe really do despise soldiers." Is that one person alot, or is this just more Repub talking point dogma? Please post the news articles and web sites substantiating your position that "lots" on the fringe left "despise" soldiers. I'd like to see it if it's there. If it's not there, it's just another Repub Lie.

History can stand for itself on how the fringe left feels about the military.
SN&R (http://www.newsreview.com/issues/sacto/2004-08-05/editnote.asp)
I hold the president and his hawkish cult responsible, but soldiers have to take some blame. If they refused to volunteer to kill, there wouldn’t be those unnecessary deaths.

History can stand for itself on how the fringe left feels about the military.

That's convenient. So you'd then say Germans are Jew-hating Nazis, Japanese are murderous imperial expansionists, Southerners oppose the abolition of slavery, etc. It must be nice to have everyone in their nice, tidy historical cubbyholes.

You can gripe about the left all you want stealthman, but that doesn't change the fact that your Bwoi George is an a$$hole AND a criminal AND a traitor.

Maybe 'thug' is a better descriptor, as Red once opined?

Deal with it.

You can gripe about the left all you want stealthman, but that doesn't change the fact that your Bwoi George is an a$$hole AND a criminal AND a traitor.

Maybe 'thug' is a better descriptor, as Red once opined?

Deal with it.
You were an intel analyst, you are about 45 y/o. You have a family. Why are all your posts composed as if they were from a madman? Do you use this forum as an alter-ego, or did something happen to push you over the edge? Maybe you are not over the edge yet, maybe you should talk to someone?

So, someone is "nuts" if they say GWB is an impeachable and despicable hump? Well then you should get ready for the lunatics to take over the asylum 53T, because there are millions just like me - if not more rabid. Including many in Congress.

But let me remind you: One person's 'madman' is another one's 'honest voice'. Since you mentioned my military service, here's an example of the kind of people I worked with daily:


Silent Warriors Creed


I am an American Soldier and a member of the Army's First Team.

I am a Warrior first and an Intelligence Professional second to none.

I take pride in my heritage, but never lose sight of my responsibilities today.

Always Out Front, I perform the first task of the Division; to know the enemy, to find him on the battlefield and to never lose him.

I act with a sense of urgency, tenacity, professionalism and devotion to my fellow soldiers and my unit.

Above all things, I am known for my integrity--for in truth lies victory.

Always at silent war, I remain ready for a shooting war.

My success is measured in the destruction of the enemy and the preservation of the lives of my fellow soldiers.

I am the Silent Warrior of the First Team.

Yes, ALL of my colleagues at the time were very much 'on the ball', straight-thinking, fair, smart, innovative, and insightful people. We were all tough and hard-working as well. Not a wimp or cry-baby among us (mentally, emotionally, OR physically), and that included many females - about 1/3 of the total. If anyone didn't measure up to the standards set not just by the Army, but of the particular requirements and expectations of my commander's, then they were cleared out of the 191st. M.I. Co. (It's the biggest reason I joined with that unit and later got assigned to Corps-level duty - in plain English: they didn't phuck around with mediocrity. Only top people were allowed to stay, and I was one of them, thank you very much.)

Now, if we can get past the overtly militaristic 'rah, rah, rah' rhetoric, notice the part: "Above all things, I am known for my integrity--for in truth lies victory." THAT'S where I try to focus on most everything I do - on the truth. Always have, always will.

If you can't tolerate GWB's actions and statements facing the bright light of day, then maybe you should find another candidate to support?

As you may recall, plenty of the rats have done the wise thing and already jumped ship, (Treasury Sec'y O'Neill, Amb. Wilson, Richard Clarke, UN Insp. Scott Ritter, various Generals & Admirals, several others highly placed in the intelligence and diplomatic community, not to mention many of our oldest and most trusted allies abroad) - with many more to follow no doubt, eg: Colin Powell and Condi Rice.

What is madness is continuing to support a regime that is so blatantly wrongheaded, dangerous, and in fact criminal. GWB is an embarrassment to this country and the people under arms that are protecting him and his lies. He should first be tried for being a wartime military deserter in 1972 (on which there is no statute of limitations), and as sitting President he has committed acts of High Crimes and Misdemeanors, which merits nothing short of impeachment.

That's convenient. So you'd then say Germans are Jew-hating Nazis, Japanese are murderous imperial expansionists, Southerners oppose the abolition of slavery, etc. It must be nice to have everyone in their nice, tidy historical cubbyholes.

For those with reading comprehension skills, yes there are fringe Germans who are Jew-hating Nazis and fringe Southerners who still oppose the abolition of slavery, probably some fringe Japanese that are merdourous imperial expansionist (though I haven't seen this openly displayed), fringe right wing Republicans who want our country to bomb mosques and watch it on tv, and fringe leftest who dispise soldiers because they chose as their profession an occupation largely designed to kill people and break things. Take your utopian glasses off, there is a lot of reality to see out there.

... yes there are ... fringe Southerners who still oppose the abolition of slavery

My point was that when you said "history can stand for itself on how"... you shirked responsibility for any evidence of what anyone now says so you could use use postions that are 30 years old. I am probably in a utopian haze, but I at least try to find some connection to current reality in a discussion about current politics. "Fringe" in italics does not mean your decades-old information is relevant today.

So which Southerners still oppose the abolition of slavery?

Who was it that said, "words are the clothing of thoughts"?

Even if I agreed with your assesment of the current adminstration, I could not agree with the sentiment of your diatribe. Your rantings are not what I would expect in the polite discource which ought be the method that determines our collective future.

I wish you health and peace.

So that's your great retort...that I'm "ranting"? OK. Whatever. :rolleyes:

But someday soon, I hope for your sake and mine as well that you see what it is you've voted for and have been supporting: the complete antithesis to all logic, ethics, and U.S. Constitutional principles.

The writing is on the wall. Don't be afraid to look at it.

I guess it's better to have Sadam and is son's raping and pillaging their citizen and invading and intimating it's neighbors. I'm glad to have a leader with BALLS than some spineless freak like Carter, Clinton or god forbid Kerry..

Since when did the U.S. ever give a sh!t about some tin-horn dictator who rapes and pillages his country? See Pol Pot, Pinochet, Milosevic, Amin, etc. And why didn't Reagan/Bush kick Saddam's a$$ in the 80's when he was invading Iran? Why did they continue to support such a 'bad guy' after that as well?

Oh - I know when...when there was something in it for the Big Corporations. Fascism, anyone?

As for your Great Balled Leader, tell me: where were his "BALLS" and "LEADERSHIP" when it was his turn to use them in Vietnam?? He and his fantasy-testicles deserted the military and went back to the safety of Texas, THAT'S WHERE...with the help and blessing of his WIMPY, MILQUETOAST father...while Kerry's balls were in 'Nam getting shot at while LEADING a combat mission.

Let me remind you: it is the folks that went into the lion's den in Iraq who have the balls, NOT BUSH, NOT RUMSFELD, NOT CHENEY, NOT POWELL, NOT WOLFOWITZ, NOT ROVE, NOT RICE, NOT TENET and NOT ANY OF THEIR CHILDREN, SIBLINGS, or PARENTS.

THEY all sat a good distance away, content with spilling out the daily fear and loathing mantra and raking in the loot, while the unnecessary slaughter of thousands of innocent people commenced, and as their own countrymen were getting killed and maimed -- all based on LIES and DECEIT.

That's COWARDICE in my book, NOT "balls". What the hell would you know about it anyway??

Who was it that said, "words are the clothing of thoughts"?

Should that also not be applied to you as well 53T, considering your "madness" speech?

Throwing stones again but not expecting mudslides, hmm?

Should that also not be applied to you as well 53T, considering your "madness" speech?

Throwing stones again but not expecting mudslides, hmm?
Please reread your post on tin-horn dictators. It contains expletives, large amounts of shouting, character attacks against administration officials and the poster, as well as a strong undercurrent of uncontroled anger.

The factual content cannot be assailed, but some of the opinions are quite unbelievable. To suggest Powell and his parents have no balls is incredible. These people are from my hometown, the Bronx. I belive the folks immigrated from Panama. Nobody drags up from their own country, moves the Bronx, raises a son all the way to adulthood, who goes on to rise to the highest ranks of the only employment available with some amount of balls.

You mean to tell me that C. Rice has no balls? She is all balls. Look up her history.

Naturally, we disagree on matters of opinion. Clearly, we differ in matters of style.

[Let's see.
First Dictators; Haiti (about 4 invasions now), Angola (supplied advisors and big $) Milosevic (about 75% of our Cruise missile inventory).

Iran/Iraq: A couple of years after Carter fagged out in Tehran, we are going to screw with one of those countries,,well smart guy, we'd be taking on both of them, not to mention where the Soviets would fall in on the situation.

A distance a way...then what are you calling...let's see, Eisenhower, Macarthur, FDR...most only made brief trips into the rear of theater. THATs what commander's in chief do. I want to see you call those guys cowards...geez, what a fool. I don't want them in harms way, I want them getting me support to kill the enemy. Come on, that insults even a moron's intelligence.

Kerry. Guys in country 4 months and gets enough fruit salad to choke a horse. His last PH was a scratch across the hand. His commanders turned him down, but since a 3rd PH gets you a ticket home, he whined (surprised?) and finally got his way. Oh, is little Cambodian story,,, "Being in Cambodia christmas 68' will be forever etched in my mind"...the horse faced jackass was 55 miles away christmas 68'...his own camp is admiting that little lie. The more his TRUE military record comes to light, I think we will all be amused.

And as far as W and the National Guard, who cares. At least he went to flight school and put a uniform on. BTW, flying jets takes a little intelligence and skill. For your information FDR never served, Regan shot training films, JFK poked the pooch and damn near got his entire crew killed. Do we really need this for our executive leadership, not really, just a respect and understanding of the armed forces. . But at least W did put the uniform on, when your BOY Clinton was touring the Soviet Union.

Loot. SHOW ME! show me where any of the adminstration is making money on the deal. The left wing media would mortgage the farm to get one trace of evidence of that. They would sell their souls to satan (Sam Donaldson's stand in) to get a piece of that. Just more simple minded hate mongering.

Slaughter. Where? Did we kill civilian accidentaly, yes. Do we go to agonizing lengths to avoid it yes...been there done that. Were you awake during your history class in Jr High? Remember WWII, Berlin, Tokyo, Dresden, London....any of those bergs ring a bell? That my poor uneducated friend is civilian slaughter. Was it terrible yes, avoidable, in some cases yes, but in most no. So, get a grip and get real. Stop the spewing and start thinking and educating yourself.

A couple of years after Carter fagged out in Tehran,

So nice to see you revealing your true colors SO early in your posting history.

So nice to see you revealing your true colors SO early in your posting history.
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...as well as a strong undercurrent of uncontroled anger.

Clearly a matter of opinion.

The factual content cannot be assailed, but some of the opinions are quite unbelievable. To suggest Powell and his parents have no balls is incredible....You mean to tell me that C. Rice has no balls? She is all balls.

Factual content = neither of them, or AFAIK any of their family members are in the CURRENT CONFLICT getting hit by shrapnel or snipers in Iraq. A subtle difference from your insinuations.

CAPS I use not to suggest shouting, but only to emphasize an important point better than bold or italics.

...It contains expletives...

So what? Grow up a bit 53T, or find a better PC issue to b!tch about. Personally, I'm still a little 'old school', and don't care that much for Yuppie speech fads. Maybe you should seek out Tipper Gore and Joe Leiberman for a ratings advisory? Oh yeah - make sure you don't watch your TV during prime-time either or you might melt.

... character attacks against administration officials and the poster,...

Absolutely! If it needs to be said, I'll say it - I'll make no apologies. Step right up folks for your daily dose of well-deserved abuse! Otherwise, think about extracting your head from your rectum if you don't like seeing a spade called exactly that - a spade.