This is in response to Snake's post in another thread, and I just wanted to comment on something I heard the other day on CNN. I have not researched the statistic and will take it at it's face value as presented on the news network.

People try to claim that there is no institutional bias or rascist discrimination against blacks, but it's just not true. They were interviewing someone who stated that over 70% of illegal drug users and dealers are WHITE, YET, 90% of the persons imprisoned in this country for drugs are Black.

How do we explain this?

Racial prejudice is alive and very well folks.

Comments?

from andrew sullivan...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/04/race-matters-ct.html#more

"For example, consider the differing reactions to games where one team blows out another. Competition levels are often uneven in youth leagues, and scores of 45-10 are common. In a Detroit league, when one African-American team dominates another by that kind of score, no-one objects. It's another day in the gym. In a league in almost-all-white Livingston County, a white-on-white blowout elicits the same reaction. But how do the losing parents and coaches react when an African-American team blows out a white team? There's a palpable sense of anger and resentment. The winning team is accused of playing dirty or "too physical" or of running up the score, or of having ringers who are really older than the maximum age, or (most revealingly) of being "thugs."

Someone either confronts their own feelings about it, deals with it, or changes it. Explaining it is a thankless enterprise since there is not a univerally plausable explanation. When the stereotype is broken and people can identify that it is no longer relevant, people's attitudes will change. When was the last time you heard an Irish or Italian joke? Those stereotypes are no longer relevant to my generation. Ask anyone in thier 20s (in America) if they know what a WHOP, DEGO or MICK is? Chances are a blank stare will be passed off as a response.

This is in response to Snake's post in another thread, and I just wanted to comment on something I heard the other day on CNN. I have not researched the statistic and will take it at it's face value as presented on the news network.

People try to claim that there is no institutional bias or rascist discrimination against blacks, but it's just not true. They were interviewing someone who stated that over 70% of illegal drug users and dealers are WHITE, YET, 90% of the persons imprisoned in this country for drugs are Black.

How do we explain this?

Racial prejudice is alive and very well folks.

Comments?
Those numbers seem a little flat to start a discussion.

I did find this, though. it's 2006. it doesn't speak to incarceration rates, though (or i didn't see it).

Anyway, i guess i'd like to see where those cnn numbers came from.

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/minorities/

This is in response to Snake's post in another thread, and I just wanted to comment on something I heard the other day on CNN. I have not researched the statistic and will take it at it's face value as presented on the news network.

People try to claim that there is no institutional bias or rascist discrimination against blacks, but it's just not true. They were interviewing someone who stated that over 70% of illegal drug users and dealers are WHITE, YET, 90% of the persons imprisoned in this country for drugs are Black.

How do we explain this?

Racial prejudice is alive and very well folks.

Comments?

BS. My daughter is white and she is doing her second sentence as we speak. She deserved it too and those blacks who are in jail for the same reasons do as well. It has more to do with economics than race but race makes for a better story if you tend toward the persecution complex sort of thing. The guy that is denied a job or a home based on color is persecuted, the drug dealer, rapist, murderer that gets sent to prison for his crime is getting what he deserved.

BS. My daughter is white and she is doing her second sentence as we speak. She deserved it too and those blacks who are in jail for the same reasons do as well. It has more to do with economics than race but race makes for a better story if you tend toward the persecution complex sort of thing. The guy that is denied a job or a home based on color is persecuted, the drug dealer, rapist, murderer that gets sent to prison for his crime is getting what he deserved.

There are 2 problems at work here- first, there is still a lot of racial bias in America. But second is that for whatever reasons, African Americans are involved in more crimes- Bill Cosby's got some thoughts on this... http://www.blackpast.org/?q=2004-bill-cosby-pound-cake-speech
an excerpt

People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake! Then we all run out and are outraged: “The cops shouldn’t have shot him.” What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand? I wanted a piece of pound cake just as bad as anybody else. And I looked at it and I had no money. And something called parenting said if you get caught with it you’re going to embarrass your mother." Not, "You’re going to get your butt kicked." No. "You’re going to embarrass your mother." "You’re going to embarrass your family."

There are 2 problems at work here- first, there is still a lot of racial bias in America. But second is that for whatever reasons, African Americans are involved in more crimes- Bill Cosby's got some thoughts on this... http://www.blackpast.org/?q=2004-bill-cosby-pound-cake-speech
an excerpt

People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake! Then we all run out and are outraged: “The cops shouldn’t have shot him.” What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand? I wanted a piece of pound cake just as bad as anybody else. And I looked at it and I had no money. And something called parenting said if you get caught with it you’re going to embarrass your mother." Not, "You’re going to get your butt kicked." No. "You’re going to embarrass your mother." "You’re going to embarrass your family."

I would be outraged over a shooting over a piece of pound cake but none of those in prison for long terms are there because they were hungry and they are as guilty of crime as our flawed system can prove. I understand that racial bias and persecution are very real but claiming the large number of blacks in prison proves some genocidal tendencies is unreasonable. Either take fewer chances or bankroll your adventures. It has a great deal to do with the kinds of values Cosby is speaking of or the lack of them.

I would be outraged over a shooting over a piece of pound cake but none of those in prison for long terms are there because they were hungry and they are as guilty of crime as our flawed system can prove. I understand that racial bias and persecution are very real but claiming the large number of blacks in prison proves some genocidal tendencies is unreasonable. Either take fewer chances or bankroll your adventures. It has a great deal to do with the kinds of values Cosby is speaking of or the lack of them.

There is a little room between a claim of racial bias and one of genocide.

I did find this, though. it's 2006. it doesn't speak to incarceration rates, though (or i didn't see it).

Anyway, i guess i'd like to see where those cnn numbers came from.


Yep, no incarceration numbers in your link. But still, we can see if there is something there that might shed light on the issue.

Using the numbers in your link, as best I can, it shows that over 3x the number of white HS kids have tried coke as black kids. Lifetime. That is not for adults of course, but we can just assume a roughly stable ratio, if not stable numbers, for adults.

But the DEA arrest numbers are 75% black. That's for a bit over 12% of the population. Who seem to use less coke than white folk who get popped for 16.5% of arrests.... at about 74% of the population.



A couple links:

Race, drugs and incarceration rates (includes some graphs by state)

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-04.htm#P284_59547

and this speaks to incarceration too:

Despite the fact that about 2/3 of crack cocaine users are white or Hispanic, 84.5% of defendants convicted of crack possession in federal court in 1994 were African American, 10.3% white, and 5.2% Hispanic according to data from the United States Sentencing Commission. Trafficking offenders were 4.1% white, 88.3% black, and 7.1% Hispanic.19

http://www.cjcj.org/pubs/clinton/clinton.html (the cons should like that link, since it goes after Bill Clinton)

So my guess is the OP is about crack cocaine specifically. And that the numbers are not that far off.

I would be outraged over a shooting over a piece of pound cake but none of those in prison for long terms are there because they were hungry and they are as guilty of crime as our flawed system can prove. I understand that racial bias and persecution are very real but claiming the large number of blacks in prison proves some genocidal tendencies is unreasonable. Either take fewer chances or bankroll your adventures. It has a great deal to do with the kinds of values Cosby is speaking of or the lack of them.

If you read his whole speech (and it's looong and very bitter), He's pretty hard on the black community as a whole.

If you don't want to go to jail, don't do things that are illegal.

From "The Young Ones"...

2 men on a prison ship, bound for australia...

PRISONER #1: [rather eloquently] Transported for life to the colonies, and for what? Scum I was to that beak, nothing but scum. 'Tis for my accent and my situation that I am condemned. 'Tis for the want of better graces and the influence they bring that I am to board this prison hulk.

PRISONER #2: And all those murders you done.

The guy that is denied a job or a home based on color is persecuted, the drug dealer, rapist, murderer that gets sent to prison for his crime is getting what he deserved. A large number of studies show clearly that there is a great racial disparity in wrongful convictions. It is particularly significant among people who are wrongfully convicted of capital crimes. Here's an example: http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/spring2003/death_penalty.html

45% of people wrongfully sentenced to death and later exonerated with positive evidence of their innocence were black. This suggests that a black man is over three times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of a capital crime than a white man.

So is this persecution, Snake?

Of these exonerated inmates, 45 percent were identified as black, 42 percent as white, and 13 percent as other racial or ethnic backgrounds.



So 45% were black and 42% were white? I don't see a great amount of persecution here. In 100% of the cases where someone (of any color) is wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death, 3% more were black than were white?

There may be arguments to support some theory of racial persecution, but this is certainly not it.

A large number of studies show clearly that there is a great racial disparity in wrongful convictions. It is particularly significant among people who are wrongfully convicted of capital crimes. Here's an example: http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/spring2003/death_penalty.html

45% of people wrongfully sentenced to death and later exonerated with positive evidence of their innocence were black. This suggests that a black man is over three times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of a capital crime than a white man.

So is this persecution, Snake?

Even if you grant the idea that there is disparity in wrongful convictions, the fact remains that the prison system is full of people who were guilty as hell and deserve to be there. No, I don't see this as persecution or the kind of racial inequity you are claiming it to be.

BS. My daughter is white and she is doing her second sentence as we speak. She deserved it too and those blacks who are in jail for the same reasons do as well. It has more to do with economics than race but race makes for a better story if you tend toward the persecution complex sort of thing. The guy that is denied a job or a home based on color is persecuted, the drug dealer, rapist, murderer that gets sent to prison for his crime is getting what he deserved.

Hoo quoted numbers that show that whites use at a higher rate than blacks....why are whites not sent to prison at the same rates?

No one is suggesting (IMO) that people tried and convicted of drug related crimes should not be incarcerated....rather that the laws should be applied equally to both whites and blacks. If they were, again based on Hoo's numbers, whites incarcerated for drug related crimes would make up more than their proportinate (to census) share.

Len

Hoo quoted numbers that show that whites use at a higher rate than blacks....why are whites not sent to prison at the same rates?

No one is suggesting (IMO) that people tried and convicted of drug related crimes should not be incarcerated....rather that the laws should be applied equally to both whites and blacks. If they were, again based on Hoo's numbers, whites incarcerated for drug related crimes would make up more than their proportinate (to census) share.

Len

Users that are sentenced are usually sentenced for possession with intent to sell. I have sat in court and watched blacks get probation as well as whites. The legal system is not geared toward sending first or second time offenders to jail, there are counseling programs and probation programs offered as alternatives. An offender has ample opportunity to work his or her self out of the situation if they care to and try. I have not seen it to be a racial issue in my own experience and I still call BS on the attempts to make it so. Criminals are criminals and off to jail with them. There is a point where the system stops attempting to assist and simply puts you away. All convicted abusers leave that final court blaming the system rather than their own decision making process, regardless of color.

Just guessing, but maybe most white users are on weed. Few people are sent to prison for weed.
This is just speculation, just like most of the above replys.

Users that are sentenced are usually sentenced for possession with intent to sell. I have sat in court and watched blacks get probation as well as whites. The legal system is not geared toward sending first or second time offenders to jail, there are counseling programs and probation programs offered as alternatives. An offender has ample opportunity to work his or her self out of the situation if they care to and try. I have not seen it to be a racial issue in my own experience and I still call BS on the attempts to make it so. Criminals are criminals and off to jail with them. There is a point where the system stops attempting to assist and simply puts you away. All convicted abusers leave that final court blaming the system rather than their own decision making process, regardless of color.

you seem to be looking at it on a case by case basis......

But if the result is that 75% of the population (whites) has a Conviction rate of 16% and yet 17% of the popuulation (blacks) have a conviction rate of 75%.........when the whites have a higher drug usage rate........then I think you have to ask the question about fair application of the laws and court systems.

I'm sure the ability to afford competent representation is part of it....but isn't that a form of discrimination?

If it's not based in racism....what would you point to as the driver?

I'm really curious.

Len

So 45% were black and 42% were white? I don't see a great amount of persecution here. 13% of the general population is black and 80% is white. If there were no prejudice you'd expect 13% of the exonerated prisoners to be black and 80% to be white.

Even if you grant the idea that there is disparity in wrongful convictions, the fact remains that the prison system is full of people who were guilty as hell and deserve to be there. No, I don't see this as persecution or the kind of racial inequity you are claiming it to be.Let's look at a different aspect of this.

If we assume that the vast majority of people in prison were guilty and deserve to be there, and if we also accept Phys's numbers as accurate, we're allowing a hell of a lot of white people to commit crimes and get away with it. Is there something wrong with the fact that we're allowing such a large fraction of white criminals to get away with their crimes?

Why aren't we cracking down on crime by whites?

Let's look at a different aspect of this.

If we assume that the vast majority of people in prison were guilty and deserve to be there, and if we also accept Phys's numbers as accurate, we're allowing a hell of a lot of white people to commit crimes and get away with it. Is there something wrong with the fact that we're allowing such a large fraction of white criminals to get away with their crimes?

Why aren't we cracking down on crime by whites?

I don't believe these numbers reflect how the system works and I believe I expressed that already. Most convictions for drugs are repeat offenders who went back one time too many. Poor whites won't fair much better in the system than poor blacks. Money talks, usually through the moluth of a competant and agressive attorney. Any crime involving a firearm will be agressively prosecuted but people usually work their way into a conviction rather than making one misstep and that includes blacks in most courts.

Blacks were imported into the US long before the heavy waves of whops, degos, and micks. It really is not about "stereotypes."

Someone either confronts their own feelings about it, deals with it, or changes it. Explaining it is a thankless enterprise since there is not a univerally plausable explanation. When the stereotype is broken and people can identify that it is no longer relevant, people's attitudes will change. When was the last time you heard an Irish or Italian joke? Those stereotypes are no longer relevant to my generation. Ask anyone in thier 20s (in America) if they know what a WHOP, DEGO or MICK is? Chances are a blank stare will be passed off as a response.

you seem to be looking at it on a case by case basis......

But if the result is that 75% of the population (whites) has a Conviction rate of 16% and yet 17% of the popuulation (blacks) have a conviction rate of 75%.........when the whites have a higher drug usage rate........then I think you have to ask the question about fair application of the laws and court systems.

I'm sure the ability to afford competent representation is part of it....but isn't that a form of discrimination?

If it's not based in racism....what would you point to as the driver?

I'm really curious.

Len

I think there are a number of things about these figures that could be misleading. How many offenses before conviction and are all the offenders repeaters? If whites are more affluent than blacks, they are more likely to be able to afford help and possibly break the cycle. I believe the legal system could provide opportunity for better representation in many cases but it's full of human beings with all the human failings. I have seen good free ones and piss poor paid ones. It's a crap shoot most of the time but the bottom line isn't could the lawyer get you off but did you do it. The overwhelming majority in prison did it. Giving blacks a better opportunity involves better life choices and opportunities, not more freebie offenses. If your risk factor is higher than average, you should consider that when you decide to break the law and everyone who breaks it makes that decision.

Ask anyone in thier 20s (in America) if they know what a WHOP, DEGO or MICK is?

WOP- Without Passport

Q. Do you know the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake?









A. One less drunk:lol:

So this is why Obama won't win? No one has put the cuffs on him .... yet. Why don't you post the data from a source that supports your premise that 70% of all drug users and dealers are white?

In these parts, drug enforcement is heavy in the minority communities because drugs fund gangs and gangs fuel violence that winds up hitting random passersby. Thats a no no politiclly. The white middle class drug networks don't seem so competitive for turf. Not so many attention grabbing murders and gunfire hitting innocents in the neighborhoods.

I argue most drug crimes should be legalized...using should be certainly within the same parameters as alcohol...selling as long as taxes are paid....taxes fund enforcement and treatment of addicts - once. If they don't want off, quit paying for treatments. I know people who went to treatment on taxpayers more than 10 times at huge cost. Let them die if they want to die. Help them once. Then..they are on their own. Otherwise we enable them to be addicts. All enforcement does is build syndicates and gangs, fill the prisons, cost millions of dollars and drive drug money underground where the taxpayers get no benefit.

BS. My daughter is white and she is doing her second sentence as we speak. She deserved it too and those blacks who are in jail for the same reasons do as well. It has more to do with economics than race but race makes for a better story if you tend toward the persecution complex sort of thing. The guy that is denied a job or a home based on color is persecuted, the drug dealer, rapist, murderer that gets sent to prison for his crime is getting what he deserved.

I have to admit that I have more experience than most with the police. I have been pulled over and have had other problems with the police and have been let go when I should have been ticketed, or arrested. I'm a clean cut, well spoken white guy who looks like he was, or is in the military. I had a USMC emblem and a volunteer Fire dept sticker on my car and the police let me go, while telling me he was doing me a favor. He also was with another sheriffs deputy and it was pretty ridiculous they let me go.

I was arrested for something I was not guilty of and the officer was apologetic about the whole thing. Told me he was putting the cuffs loose. Told me to stand behind a car so people couldn't see me cuffed. Really nice. I also think the police suspect that you might know someone who can get them in trouble if they don't treat you respectfully.

When I got to the county jail the corrections officer, a black guy, seemed surprised, when they were rolling my prints, in that I didn't seem like the run of the mill person coming thru the system. I think he said something to me in that regard, altho I can't remember exactly what it was.

OTOH, I work with a lot of black people and their experiences are vastly different. They get pulled over driving while black all the time. Just for no reason at all. Or some bs like it's a bad area, what are they doing there? Well, a lot of them live in the neighborhood. Most of them have been arrested for basically bs stuff and their relatives have to bail them out. A woman I work with, her son is some HS football star who's going to Florida State got arrested for bs disorderly conduct and she's down at the precinct threatening lawsuits and they let him go. I just hear this stuff over and over.

The thing that makes me believe the stories of black people is that I grew up with a lot of pieces of sh*t who later became cops. I heard them dropping the N word all the time and I don't think the police harassment of blacks has changed all that much... They don't view it as harassment though. They're cleaning up the neighborhood.

A childhood friend of mine is an Atlanta police officer, and they had some kind of points system for their arrests. He's no longer on patrol and I think they modified the system but it's just ridiculous. My friend was making felony arrests like every night and it wasn't like he was trying hard to do it.

We went on vacation together to LA and Las Vegas when he just started as a cop and he had PTSD. He was walking around the room in his sleep saying crazy police sh*t and I had to tell him to go back to sleep.

From your link, it looks like hispanics are more drugged up than any one. Maybe we should start filling the jails with them too.

BS. My daughter is white and she is doing her second sentence as we speak. She deserved it too and those blacks who are in jail for the same reasons do as well. It has more to do with economics than race but race makes for a better story if you tend toward the persecution complex sort of thing. The guy that is denied a job or a home based on color is persecuted, the drug dealer, rapist, murderer that gets sent to prison for his crime is getting what he deserved.

This isn't a bad point actually. Criminals are criminals. The argument should be towards prosecuting more whites not less blacks --that's where the essential unfairness stems from.

I've heard a great deal that the descrepancy largely comes from the harsh penalties for crack cocaine v. powder forms. Also there's the 3 stikes and your out laws that get can really core out a community wracked w/ drug culture and near institutional levels of criminality. Crack was a truly horrifying blight in the late eighties and early nineties if anyone cares to remember and the laws were made especially harsh because people were absolutely outraged. Whether it's truly worse than powder cocaine I couldn't say but I do think I understand why crack became the poster child for all that is wrong w/ drugs.

What would be interesting to me would be a comparison between crack and crystal meth which I understand to be almost exclusively a "white" drug. We know this drug is one of the very worst ever when it comes to ruining lives and damaging the community. So it would be productive to see any stats regarding incarceration rates and the length of sentences handed out to the tweaking set. Maybe a crafty politician could "even the score" by increasing the penalties for those crimes. And there we're all done here.

This isn't a bad point actually. Criminals are criminals. The argument should be towards prosecuting more whites not less blacks --that's where the essential unfairness stems from.

I've heard a great deal that the descrepancy largely comes from the harsh penalties for crack cocaine v. powder forms. Also there's the 3 stikes and your out laws that get can really core out a community wracked w/ drug culture and near institutional levels of criminality. Crack was a truly horrifying blight in the late eighties and early nineties if anyone cares to remember and the laws were made especially harsh because people were absolutely outraged. Whether it's truly worse than powder cocaine I couldn't say but I do think I understand why crack became the poster child for all that is wrong w/ drugs.

What would be interesting to me would be a comparison between crack and crystal meth which I understand to be almost exclusively a "white" drug. We know this drug is one of the very worst ever when it comes to ruining lives and damaging the community. So it would be productive to see any stats regarding incarceration rates and the length of sentences handed out to the tweaking set. Maybe a crafty politician could "even the score" by increasing the penalties for those crimes. And there we're all done here.

I think the argument should be made that we shouldn't be criminalizing large segments of society for being drug addicts.

I find it troubling that the U.S. incarcerates more people than just about any other country..

The answer is prosecuting more people? And then we're all done here?

I think the argument should be made that we shouldn't be criminalizing large segments of society for being drug addicts.

I find it troubling that the U.S. incarcerates more people than just about any other country..

The answer is prosecuting more people? And then we're all done here?

The "all done here" was meant sarcastically.

I hear ya, I'm all for legalizing drugs and taxing the crap out of them the same way we do tobacco and booze. That would be the real way to get rid of the violent criminal drug trade and then all we would have left is a treatment problem which they could finance themselves via the tax.

But barring that happening it's unfair to send one guy to jail for an offence and let off another who commits an equivalent no? In fact if out of an enlightened sense of fairplay more people are criminally prosecuted, i.e. Buffy and Skipper, that might be the only thing to get this nation to finally re-examine our current drug laws and how we deal w/ the problem. It's not a problem if it doesn't affect you does it? Out of sight out of mind.

The other thing to note is drug use and addiction does cause crime and violence and I do think those draconian rockefeller drug laws that have so many criminals warehoused here in NY is one of the main reasons NYC is now one of the safest big cities in the country. I mean it's literally night and day comparing 2008 and 1988 here in the city. I'm sure there are other factors but criminals not being able to committ crimes because they are locked up is a big one.