To tie J's and Phys's threads together, NYC had Kiehl Coppin, Jayson Tirado, Amadou Diallo, and Sean Bell. I was musing that I can't think of any similar cases of cops unloading multiple magazines into an unarmed white man (OK, with Tirado, it was "just" three shots and the officer had the excuse that he was suffering from "road rage", but still...).

Can anyone cite a case I've overlooked.

And is it racism or something else that makes unarmed black guys such appealing targets.

To tie J's and Phys's threads together, NYC had Kiehl Coppin, Jayson Tirado, Amadou Diallo, and Sean Bell. I was musing that I can't think of any similar cases of cops unloading multiple magazines into an unarmed white man (OK, with Tirado, it was "just" three shots and the officer had the excuse that he was suffering from "road rage", but still...).

Can anyone cite a case I've overlooked.

And is it racism or something else that makes unarmed black guys such appealing targets.

It's a heightened suspicion, and the feeling for many cops that they are in foreign hostile territory dealing with people they don't have all that much respect for. A sort of siege mentality.

I grew up in a blue collar suburb of NYC on Long Island in the '70's and '80's and it's amazing the stuff I was privy to. You know, the casual dropping of the N word, and just talking about blacks as if they were sub human. Most cops(and I know a lot of them) come from the suburbs surrounding NYC and don't live in the neighborhoods they police.

I know it's changed somewhat, but I have enlightened cop friends who have told me (in fairness, 10 years ago) that that attitude is often pervasive.

Also this idea that 2 of the cops were black and they would have empathy for the residents of black neighborhoods doesn't necessarily hold up. I know blacks of Carribbean descent often look down upon blacks who have been here for many generations, as lazy and taking advantage of the system, not wanting to work etc.. They've made this point to me more than once...They want to differentiate themselves from the lazy ones or so they put it to me.

It wasn't all that long ago when a group of white thugs in Howard Beach(John Gotti's neighborhood) chased a black guy onto the Belt Parkway, where he got killed by a car, just because he happened to go into their neighborhood.

Believe it or not, I didn't know the men were black until I read it right here on RBR.

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking this was more of a tragic series of events that went south real fast, if anything, due to poor/impaired judgment, coupled with a "black-n-blue" issue.

There was a case down here in NC where the cops shot a white kid through the door of his apartment. It was sort of a hail of gunfire, but I mean, the end result was that the kid was just as dead unfortunately.

see where the postors here who regularly assert racism at every junction, actually reside.

Weird thing is, the people who take the pseudo-intellectual view that racism exists around every corner (and only exists from white people to darker hued folks) - seem to only live in the most homogenous, white-bread places in America.

Well, there was Waco, and there was that Neo-Nazi family at Ruby Ridge...

So yeah, cops do shoot unarmed white folks. And burn them to death.

Well, there was Waco, and there was that Neo-Nazi family at Ruby Ridge...

So yeah, cops do shoot unarmed white folks. And burn them to death.Not to nitpick, but I know that "unarmed" does not apply to Ruby Ridge and I don't believe it applies to Waco.

To tie J's and Phys's threads together, NYC had Kiehl Coppin, Jayson Tirado, Amadou Diallo, and Sean Bell. I was musing that I can't think of any similar cases of cops unloading multiple magazines into an unarmed white man (OK, with Tirado, it was "just" three shots and the officer had the excuse that he was suffering from "road rage", but still...).

Can anyone cite a case I've overlooked.

And is it racism or something else that makes unarmed black guys such appealing targets.

Well, last week, an on-duty cop killed a white, off duty cop who charged out of a strip club to break up a fight. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-stamp,0,139519.storygallery

Well, there was Waco, and there was that Neo-Nazi family at Ruby Ridge...

So yeah, cops do shoot unarmed white folks. And burn them to death. Waco: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html

The FBI recovered over 150 firearms, including around 50 that had been illegally modified to fire in full-auto mode. Autopsies and testimony from survivors found that while many deaths were caused by the fire or the tear gas, at least 20, including five children, were killed by Branch Davidians (stabbed or shot in the head at close range).

Ruby Ridge: The Weavers were armed and had engaged in firefights with the marshalls prior to Vicki Weaver's death. Randy Weaver was a fugitive from justice, having failed to appear for his trial in 1991. A case can be made that Weaver was justified in his firefights with law enforcement because federal marshalls had not properly identified themselves, but you can't make the argument that he was unarmed.

Without wanting to excuse the reckless behavior of the federal agents at either site, there's a world of difference between criminals who hole themselves up with firearms and shoot at federal agents over the course of many days and innocent people who are shot with little or no warning by people who can not be clearly identified as legitimate police officers (as opposed to thugs).

Amadou Diallo was reaching for his wallet to provide identification. The police were out of uniform, so there is some question whether they properly identified themselves. Sean Bell was set on by people with no uniforms who were waving guns and as with the Diallo case, there is dispute over whether the cops properly identified themselves or whether Bell and his companions thought they were being carjacked.

Tirado was shot for no legitimate reason (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/nyregion/23rage.html) by a cop who didn't like the way he was driving. Coppin was holding a hairbrush that police thought looked like a gun (although they did have legitimate cause to worry, since they were responding to a domestic dispute 911 call from his mother). He was shot 20 times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/13/nyregion/13domestic.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin) immediately after he dropped the hairbrush and raised his hands.

Not to nitpick, but I know that "unarmed" does not apply to Ruby Ridge and I don't believe it applies to Waco.

Pretty sure the wife who got picked off by a sniper was unarmed (unless you count the 10 month old she was holding as a weapon)... The ruby ridge folks were dangerous nuts, but that's over the line.

One might note that while juries acquit cops who shoot unarmed black men, they come down pretty hard on cops who shoot unarmed dangerous white whackos-

The surviving members of the Weaver family filed a wrongful death suit and Randy Weaver received a $100,000 settlement while his daughters received $1 million each. Weaver wrote a 1998 paperback book, The Federal Siege at Ruby Ridge, about the incident. Kevin Harris received a $380,000 settlement.

FBI director Louis Freeh disciplined or proposed discipline for twelve FBI employees over their handling of the incident and the later prosecution of Randy Weaver and Harris. He described it before the U.S. Senate hearing investigating the incident as "synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement" and stated "law enforcement overreacted at Ruby Ridge."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

Well, last week, an on-duty cop killed a white, off duty cop who charged out of a strip club to break up a fight. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-stamp,0,139519.storygallery

The cop was a founding member of a bike gang, ran out a side door with brass knuckles on, was dropped by a taser, rose and drew his weapon, and was shot at least once in the chest.

Completely different scenario than the Sean Bell murder.

see where the postors here who regularly assert racism at every junction, actually reside.

... [T]he people who take the pseudo-intellectual view that racism exists around every corner (and only exists from white people to darker hued folks) - seem to only live in the most homogenous, white-bread places in AmericaNashville TN, zip code 37209. You can look at the racial profile of my neighborhood (http://www.brainyzip.com/demographic/37/demographic_37209.html) if you'd like to: 61% white, 31% african american, 4% hispanic, 4% asian.

Some of my perception of widespread anti-black racism comes from personal experience. One example: when my son (white) was in middle school ten years ago, the teachers told my wife and me to our faces that we should take him out of public school and send him to private school for high school because he might start dating black girls if he went to the public high school. We also got complaints from the teachers that he was disrespectful when he called them out for treating his black friends more strictly and negatively than him.

I hope that answers your question.

I'm interested in how you conclude that my perceptions of racism are somehow "pseudo-intellectual" instead of derived from my personal experience and facts that I get from the news. What do you mean by pseudo-intellectual and why do you think it applies to me?

Pretty sure the wife who got picked off by a sniper was unarmed (unless you count the 10 month old she was holding as a weapon)... But the sniper was not aiming at her. She was out of sight, behind a door and got hit by a bullet aimed at her husband and his friend Kevin Harris, who were armed.

From the Wikipedia article you cite:Then, as Weaver, his 16-year-old daughter Sara<sup id="cite_ref-People_10-0" class="reference"></sup>, and Harris ran back to the house, Horiuchi took a second shot, which struck and wounded Harris, and killed Vicki Weaver. Vicki Weaver was standing behind the door through which Harris was entering the house, holding their 10-month-old baby Elishiba in her armsThere's a difference between deliberately targeting someone and accidentally hitting someone who's hidden from sight.

see where the postors here who regularly assert racism at every junction, actually reside.

Weird thing is, the people who take the pseudo-intellectual view that racism exists around every corner (and only exists from white people to darker hued folks) - seem to only live in the most homogenous, white-bread places in America.

Noooooo! I'm white and a minority where I work.

This is outright ridiculous.

Republican party strategy where you can float anything no matter how unfounded or ridiculous.

see where the postors here who regularly assert racism at every junction, actually reside.

I'm not one to assert racism at "every junction", and in this case I'm far from certain race had anything to do with it, but my experience is that racism in general is alive and well in many parts of the country.

Where I grew up black people were ******s if only white people were around. To this day you can go into my father's business and there is a good chance you will hear the word ******s used to refer to black people. The surprising thing is not that somebody would use the word, it's that they feel perfectly comfortable using the word amongst other white people some of whom they almost certainly don't even know.

I've also experienced black people making blatantly racist statements (in big city settings rather than rural settings).

Then again my wife who grew in the mountains in the west in a well-educated family pretty much seemed to have no experience of racism until coming east and getting mixed up with my lot.

This has happened a few times out here as well. And yes, the victim each time was black.

In one case, cops unloaded their guns into a car when the driver started reversing toward them. I don't think they were ever even brought to court. A few different oversight committeess cleared them of any wrongdoing on the premise that they had a reasonable fear for their lives.

(I did a lot of research on that one. I'd been harassed and then hit by a guy in a truck who was enraged that I was taking the right lane on a four lane boulevard. I brought the cops to him; they refused to even give him a warning (even after he admitted hitting me and fleeing). I filed a complaint with the LAPD and argued that the guy threatened me with his truck, which in that case could have been a deadly weapon. To bolster my argument, I threw the facts of that police shooting at them. They weren't too thrilled, but it still didn't go anywhere.)

I covered cops here for many years and have been involved in coverage of several other cases since...the vast majority have been white. One white mentally ill, another drunk college student. Bad judgement in both cases, criminal charges in one didn't fly but should have. Tough to get judges or juries to second guess line officers especially after 9-11. We are in a mid-size town with a gang-operating drug network.

Rather than racism, I think we've seen a police forces dummy down on the whole. Chicago positions used to be sought after, but now they are hard to fill. Not enough money, too much danger, no thanks.

I've lived in Chicago, San Antonio, Philadelphia, Indianapolis. Unsure if I would call the cops anywhere race imbalanced as a whole with the exception of Philly . Philly was in the mid 1970s, the town was tough and so were the police.

I covered cops here for many years and have been involved in coverage of several other cases since...the vast majority have been white. One white mentally ill, another drunk college student. Bad judgement in both cases, criminal charges in one didn't fly but should have. Tough to get judges or juries to second guess line officers especially after 9-11. We are in a mid-size town with a gang-operating drug network.

Rather than racism, I think we've seen a police forces dummy down on the whole. Chicago positions used to be sought after, but now they are hard to fill. Not enough money, too much danger, no thanks.

I've lived in Chicago, San Antonio, Philadelphia, Indianapolis. Unsure if I would call the cops anywhere race imbalanced as a whole with the exception of Philly . Philly was in the mid 1970s, the town was tough and so were the police.
I don't think the OP was talking about officer-involved shootings. I think it was more about officer-involved massacres (i.e. 50+ rounds into an unarmed person).

This has happened a few times out here as well. And yes, the victim each time was black.

In one case, cops unloaded their guns into a car when the driver started reversing toward them. I don't think they were ever even brought to court. A few different oversight committeess cleared them of any wrongdoing on the premise that they had a reasonable fear for their lives.

(I did a lot of research on that one. I'd been harassed and then hit by a guy in a truck who was enraged that I was taking the right lane on a four lane boulevard. I brought the cops to him; they refused to even give him a warning (even after he admitted hitting me and fleeing). I filed a complaint with the LAPD and argued that the guy threatened me with his truck, which in that case could have been a deadly weapon. To bolster my argument, I threw the facts of that police shooting at them. They weren't too thrilled, but it still didn't go anywhere.)

Is that the one where the cops had the wrong SUV? And then they surrounded it and a bunch of cops unloaded their pistols? And they were all standing around it in a circle, basically shooting at each other? And they fired a ton of bullets in to the surrounding neighborhood houses?




joe

see where the postors here who regularly assert racism at every junction, actually reside.

Weird thing is, the people who take the pseudo-intellectual view that racism exists around every corner (and only exists from white people to darker hued folks) - seem to only live in the most homogenous, white-bread places in America.

That's because racism does exist around almost every corner, even when there aren't any minorities around.

Case in point. I grew up in lilly white Maine. Yeah, the state where 99.998% of people are white caucasian. Yet, most of the people I grew up around, including my Uncle, were so racist, it would make your hair curl, and it was primarily against the folks of the darker hue as you say.

Now, living in North Carolina, I see the same things. The black folks that I work with tell me stories that I find hard to believe in 2008, and yet, it still happens, every, single, day..

It sounds to me like you're denying that racism exists, and that's just sad.

Race plus power = racism. Which is why black people and minorities are on the receiving end of racism almost 100 percent of the time.

Not to nitpick, but I know that "unarmed" does not apply to Ruby Ridge and I don't believe it applies to Waco.

And the folks at Waco fired first as well. Fired on federal agents serving a search warrant that was legally obtained from a local court.

What were they supposed to do? Not shoot back?

Anyway, they should have sent Delta in. Thing would have been over in about 10 minutes.

I don't think the OP was talking about officer-involved shootings. I think it was more about officer-involved massacres (i.e. 50+ rounds into an unarmed person).


TThe drunk college boy was shot through the passenger side window with a shotgun, three shots fires, two hit....the cop said the cboy was going to hit him but the truck already passed by. Big civil award....the mental case was shot full of holes by a cop over $3 in gasoline. I know what the thread was about and I was speaking to it.

Why is the bar so low for a police officer to go blasting someone but if a civilian feels they are in danger on their own property or even in their own house with an intruder they are held to a much higher standard of restraint before they can pop someone?

These cops go around telling people what to do, brusquely ordering people around their whole careers. NYPD cops retire after 20 years with 3/4 pensions and then they use this, "I was afraid, I was in danger" horsesh!t. Damn, the guys in Mogadishu had stricter rules of engagement and everybody in the whole damn city was running around with an AK-47. Identify the person with a gun before you shoot and all that. These Sean Bell killers just blasted away because they were afraid? That's part of the job and why they get the benefit of retiring at friggin 45 years old or even younger.

It's kind of like the captain going down with the ship. Yeah, they may have fear and it sucks, but you don't get off the boat until everyone else does first. This saving your own skin at all costs mentality is ridiculous for a cop. The responsibility of the police is first that they don't shoot an unarmed person, which may in turn subject them to more danger as opposed to just blasting away because someone may have a gun and they felt fear.

The Bell case in NY reminded me of a similar one in Denver in 1996.