I have a set of Reynolds Attack wheels, that I have been riding for about a month, maybe 500 miles. Wheels are performing fine, however the appearance of the wheels has become very unsightly -- what Jeremy at Reynolds calls the Scrim layer, another layer of material that is used with the carbon -- is showing on the braking surface and inbetween the spokes, it looks like a white coating on the rims. Jeremy told me that this isn't anything unusual for their rims. Now, on the braking surface I can accept, however on the edge of the rim, between the spokes ??????? He also told me that these are the 2007 wheels, as on the 2008 models the Scrim is put on the braking surface only, and would have a distinct line where it ends, mine does not; and the visible presence of the Scrim on the V edge of the rims indicates the Scrim is used on the entire rim, hence 2007 wheels.

Do any of you with Reynolds Attack wheels also see this Scrim layer (it wasn't there when the wheels were new, however it showed itself soon thereafter, with only a few hundred miles of riding) ? Normal or not, for a $1200 set of wheels that is maybe a month old, and with only a few hundred miles, I am none too pleased.

I will try to get a couple pics posted soon.

Thanks,
Doug

Here are some pics, 2 showing the Scrim between the spokes, and one showing the Scrim on the braking surface. I can live with the braking surface appearance, it is what I see between the spokes that I am not happy about. (The brake surface pic is a bit out of focus, I didn't have enough depth of field or perhaps was just too close, but you can still see what I am referring to here).

Doug

Looks pretty normal. You won't see any of it when you are riding.

-Eric

Eric, when you say "looks pretty normal", are you saying you have a set and yours look like this as well ? Granted, it doesn't make any diff in the ride, however how my wheels, and how my bike looks, they are both important to me. I am not a racer, I bought these wheels cause I am into nice bikes and nice components and nice wheels. If you are a racer and are solely concerned with function this is probably OK, but that isn't the only factor for me.

Honestly, they look pretty crappy if you ask me, I wouldn't have expected a $1200 set of wheels to take on this look after only a month, if ever (I am referring to what you see in the spoke bed, I understand that the brake surface of most any rim will get scuffed/scratched/etc with use). I have Mavic Ksyrium wheels (aluminum, not carbon, of course) that look pretty much like they did when new, one set is over a year old, the other about 3 years old. If the finish on the Mavic wheels had gone away after a month I would be upset, just as I am now.

Reynolds warranty guy (Jeremy) doesn't seem to feel anything is wrong, I tend to disagree. If nothing is wrong why was the only change made in these wheels in the 2008 edition to eliminate the scrim in all places but the brake surface ? If this is so normal, as Reynolds says, perhaps they should show something like this in their sales/marketing material -- well, it would likely discourage many buyers if they did.

I am still very unhappy about these wheels, and Reynold's stance.

Doug

Looks pretty normal. You won't see any of it when you are riding.

-Eric

How could the scrim just appear in this spot? There is nothing going on between the spokes that would cause it to change... unless... maybe... you used some gnarly chemical stuff to clean them.

BTW, scrim is showing in that area on the new Reynolds rims I have... and these are more expensive than yours.

The change from 07 to 08 was to minimize the amount of scrim, with weight savings in mind. They make continuous improvements in their resin and the unidirectional fiber that is really what the rim is about. If you got Edge rims, you wouldn't see woven scrim at all. The scrim takes a sharp bend at the inner edge of the rim profile, and carbon doesn't like to be bent all that much so it tends to be more obvious as you have seen here. Nothing wrong. If you wanted an all-black rim, you should have it spray-painted by a frame-painter. The better carbon rims use techniques that don't necessarily optimize cosmetics (of the traditional sort) but give the strongest and lightest rims. You could cover all this with a woven layer like Zipp does, but it substitutes for unidirectional fiber and simply reduces the strength of the rim. And yes, I see it on 6 pairs of Reynolds team wheels from '07 that were handy to check out.

Did you use gnarly chemical stuff to clean yours ? I haven't used anything other than a soft cloth, or maybe damp cloth (water), nothing else. Based on other responses, and yours, I guess this is indeed normal. Might be nice if Reynolds pointed this out before you buy the wheels, however that would likely discourage some (it might have me) from buying them. They don't have to look perfect, certainly won't (no rims do) on the brake surface, however the appearance they have taken on in the spoke bed was something I wouldn't have expected.

Doug

How could the scrim just appear in this spot? There is nothing going on between the spokes that would cause it to change... unless... maybe... you used some gnarly chemical stuff to clean them.

BTW, scrim is showing in that area on the new Reynolds rims I have... and these are more expensive than yours.

Based on all the input I have received, what I am seeing (the pics I posted) is indeed something normal for carbon rims. My first concern was that something might be wrong with the rims, 2nd was for the sake of appearances. I would rather they didn't look like this, however it seems like this is just part of the gig with these rims.

Thanks for checking the ones you had handy.

Doug

The change from 07 to 08 was to minimize the amount of scrim, with weight savings in mind. They make continuous improvements in their resin and the unidirectional fiber that is really what the rim is about. If you got Edge rims, you wouldn't see woven scrim at all. The scrim takes a sharp bend at the inner edge of the rim profile, and carbon doesn't like to be bent all that much so it tends to be more obvious as you have seen here. Nothing wrong. If you wanted an all-black rim, you should have it spray-painted by a frame-painter. The better carbon rims use techniques that don't necessarily optimize cosmetics (of the traditional sort) but give the strongest and lightest rims. You could cover all this with a woven layer like Zipp does, but it substitutes for unidirectional fiber and simply reduces the strength of the rim. And yes, I see it on 6 pairs of Reynolds team wheels from '07 that were handy to check out.

If I saw your rims, Id say...."Yeah, that looks like carbon"

Carbon isnt going to look "Pretty" unless it uses a cosmetic woven layer over the "real" stuff.

Ive had 3 Reynolds carbon rims and more than my share of Zipps.... none looked very pretty up close.

But thats whats great about carbon, its cool looking in its raw form. Industrial-cool.

It looks like total a$$. I had a yellowing of the clearcoat that covers the decals on my Zipp 404s and Zipp replaced the rims - no problems/questions. The breaking surface would be the only area where a change over time would be acceptable.

Well, based on others' posts here, and Reynolds statements, this seems to be a normal thing with carbon rims. I think it looks like crap as well (carbon weave is one thing, this Scrim is another, and it isn't pretty in my opinion). I also don't think Reynolds will do anything about it. I am not really thrilled about that fact, but what can I do ?

Doug

It looks like total a$$. I had a yellowing of the clearcoat that covers the decals on my Zipp 404s and Zipp replaced the rims - no problems/questions. The breaking surface would be the only area where a change over time would be acceptable.

I am not really thrilled about that fact, but what can I do ?

Black permanent marker.

Acutally, the Reynolds maint / warranty rep (Jeremy) aid the same thing at one point in our conversation. My concern with that would be making this more noticeable than it is now. Pretty hard to get perm black marker ink to come off once it is put on. Anyone every try this ?

Doug

Black permanent marker.

Acutally, the Reynolds maint / warranty rep (Jeremy) aid the same thing at one point in our conversation. My concern with that would be making this more noticeable than it is now. Pretty hard to get perm black marker ink to come off once it is put on. Anyone every try this ?

Doug

Reynolds rims aren't black like permanent marker.

If I were worried about performance, I wouldn't do a damned thing. In fact, my Stratus DVs had the same thing, and I could have cared less. Besides, not a soul could see any scrim when the wheel was spinning.

If I were worried about appearances, then I guess I'd shop more carefully.

I have stratus dv's that have some roughness to their appearance and this only adds to my appreciation of them as it shows their dedication to function and performance and not pandering to fashion and cosmetics. They look spartan because they are and that's why they're so good. Too many companies nowadays can;t be trusted since they opt for visuals and fake pseudo science to sell stuff that looks "good" but has no practical function whatsoever other than depriving buyers of hard-earned cash.
Racing wheels are made and bought specifically for bare bones weight and high strength and high performance and should be as spartan in their appearance as can be (as should most real "race" components), cosmetics should not be a consideration when judging quality of manufacture. I see this often debated in Cevelo forums as well.

This is the first set of carbon wheels I have ever owned. I decided to purchase them for a variety of reasons -- curious about the ride of carbon wheels, the cost/value, the bling factor (appearance), and to a lesser degree, the performance. Combination of all those things. I am a 49 year old recreational rider / biking enthusiast, and I just like nice bikes and nice components. I am not a racer, though sometimes it feels like some of the group rides I do go on are races :) I do like to push myself, to try to improve, and I like to ride at as fast pace as I can more often than not, so yes, performance was a factor, though not the only factor. If you are solely concerned about performance, and nothing else, than there is no issue, however for me that isn't the only factor that made these wheels appeal to me. Unless Reynolds or Colorado Cyclist is willing to replace the wheels, I will have to live with them as is, which isn't the end of the world. Based on what Jeremy at Reynolds told me, I have set of their 2007 wheels; the 2008 don't have the scrim layer anywhere but the brake surface. Since I ordered them in late February of 2008, not a last year closeout or anything like that, it would have been nice if I would have gotten 2008 wheels, shouldn't have the issue with this year's Attacks, based on what I have been told.

Doug

Reynolds rims aren't black like permanent marker.

If I were worried about performance, I wouldn't do a damned thing. In fact, my Stratus DVs had the same thing, and I could have cared less. Besides, not a soul could see any scrim when the wheel was spinning.

If I were worried about appearances, then I guess I'd shop more carefully.

If you are really hung up on this, look into Fulcrum, Corima, Campy as they seem to be more "finished" in terms of cosmetic layers, paint, etc.. Maybe you can exchange the set of Reynolds you bought for one of these?

I understand your points about performance, however there are many cyclists (just look at many of the posts / bikes on this forum) for whom appearances are also a factor in assembling and outfitting a bike. I don't think I have had any component that I have put on any bike, including carbon bars, and carbon seatposts, that have changed their appearance (in what I think most would agree is a negative way) after just one month of use. As I just stated in another prior reply in this thread, appearances are by no means the only factor, however the appearance is one factor that does matter to me, especially for a set of wheels that cost $1200 -- I don't buy wheels every day, or even every year. I did look around Reynold's site, and I really didn't find anything about scrim and/or this matter, which Reynolds told me is usual for their rims. Now, the site is extensive, so perhaps this is discussed and I never found it, I am not sure about that -- if nothing is stated, perhaps something should be, it would give the consumer reasonable expectations. Or maybe only a a select few people who buy these wheels have concerns about appearances like I do -- pure performance and value for the buck, both points that these wheels excel at from what I have read and experienced so far in my month with them, might well be the driving force for most. If I would have known about this issue before making the purchase, then I would have no reason to be unhappy, as it was my choice to buy or not to buy them. However as this was a surprise, an unpleasant one to me, I am not thrilled about the transformation in the appearance of these wheels, especially after only a month of use, that's all.

Doug

I have stratus dv's that have some roughness to their appearance and this only adds to my appreciation of them as it shows their dedication to function and performance and not pandering to fashion and cosmetics. They look spartan because they are and that's why they're so good. Too many companies nowadays can;t be trusted since they opt for visuals and fake pseudo science to sell stuff that looks "good" but has no practical function whatsoever other than depriving buyers of hard-earned cash.
Racing wheels are made and bought specifically for bare bones weight and high strength and high performance and should be as spartan in their appearance as can be (as should most real "race" components), cosmetics should not be a consideration when judging quality of manufacture. I see this often debated in Cevelo forums as well.

I am not looking for an exchange for a different make / model of wheel, other than perhaps a set of 2008 Attacks, which don't have the scrim later (the root of this issue) anywhere but on the braking surface. I am 6'3" 215 pounds, and I think that many of the carbon wheels out there aren't really suited for riders of my size. I already also have a set of Ksyrium ES wheels that I alternate with these, so I don't need another set of wheels that are similar to those. I guess the issue here for me is that I didn't have a clue that his was "normal" for these wheels, before buying and riding on them, and if I had gotten 2008 wheels (reasonable expectation, I think, since I made my purchase 2 months into 2008), I believe that this wouldn't be an issue with the 2008 Attacks.

If I bought new wheels for my car, regardless of being for performance or not, if the wheels' apperance degraded after a month, in a area that doesn't contact anything but the air, I wouldn't be too happy, it wouldn't be a reasonable expection to me for that to occur. Pretty much the same thing here.

Doug

If you are really hung up on this, look into Fulcrum, Corima, Campy as they seem to be more "finished" in terms of cosmetic layers, paint, etc.. Maybe you can exchange the set of Reynolds you bought for one of these?

Understood, I didn;t catch the fact that you feel they deteriorated since purchase I though you just werent happy with their overall appearance even as new. mine have remained relatively unchanged since i bought them 3 years ago though i only use them for short periods at a time and not in rain.

another 'option'-

1. pay the $200 for the reynolds assurance program.
2. wreck both wheels
3. have them replaced by reynolds

(I am being semi-serious...)

Yes, definitely, I had no issue with them as they came out of the box, and I don't have an issue with the braking surface scrim showing (that white appearance you can see in the pics). What I am displeased with is the appearance taken on by the wheels, both of them, all way around, in what Reynolds terms the spoke bed (the edge of the rims, between the spokes, in the pics). Even though this part of the rim doesn't contact anything, the scrim layer (the white substance that is on the outside surface on the edge of the rim between the spokes) has become very visible, quite unappealing. Does it affect performance, nope, I don't think so. Can you see it when riding, nope, really can't. Can you see it when the bike is sitting still, yes, you can. Will it get worse, become more noticeable as time goes on, maybe, I don't know. Since you mentioned rain, I did get caught in the rain, rode about 30-40 minutes, seemed to notice the scrim showing in the spoke much more than I did before, I believe. My pal, who has had the same wheels for a few weeks longer than I, and was not on my rain ride, the scrim shows in the spoke bed, but hardly, you have to get really close to notice it. Would hate to think that a 50 degree rain would cause the wheels to "transform" :)

Doug

Understood, I didn;t catch the fact that you feel they deteriorated since purchase I though you just werent happy with their overall appearance even as new. mine have remained relatively unchanged since i bought them 3 years ago though i only use them for short periods at a time and not in rain.

Try Armor All. That's what Zipp uses to pretty up their rims before they go out the door. Otherwise, that's carbon. Reynolds prioritized weight and cost and I think they made the right decision. I care a lot about the look of my bike as well. I just don't mind it much if it's for the right reason (ie. not because they are crappy rims).

-Eric

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. These rims do not look like this when they leave the factory. Why should this happen over time? The white color that you see is most likely due to a slight de-lamination of the materials. The manufacturer would never allow the rims to leave the factory looking like this as consumers would simply not purchase the product. They should have had a better handle on the manufacturing process before they release these to the public.

I have a set of 404's, Dura Ace carbons and Bora Ultras and none look like this. I would raise a stink with Reynolds and if they are of no help, I would tell them to get stuffed and never purchase their junk again. We throw our hard-earned cash at these guys and we should expect some half-decent respect in return.

Cheers!

If you are irritated that you got an old model, then your beef is proabably with the retailer (Colorado Cyclist) and not the manufacturer. Reynolds has no control over what model year wheel Colorado Cyclist sells to you.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. These rims do not look like this when they leave the factory. Why should this happen over time? The white color that you see is most likely due to a slight de-lamination of the materials.

It doesn't make sense that it is any sort of delamination. If anything, that would occur in a pattern around the eyelets... not between them. The only reason I can think of for this to occur *over time*, is some sort of caustic chemical... or maybe UV reaction?

The new Reynolds rims I've seen do not have such an obvious scrim, but it is visible. It is the nature of carbon some rims that do not have a cosmetic (ie mostly wasted weight) layer over the top.. I can relate to the OPs misguided assumption that the rims would be visually "perfect", but truly... there is nothing wrong with them. A little investigation of the matter would have revealed that this is normal.

I agree with most replies here, that there isn't anything structurally wrong with these wheels. Maybe my expectations that the wheels would look, after only a month of riding, maybe 500 miles, if that (probably not that much), pretty much like they looked when I got them, excepting the brake surface, was an unreasonable expectation. I don't really think that my expectations are unreasonable. I haven't used any type of chemicals on these wheels at all, just wiped them with a dry sock, or maybe a damp (with water) paper towel.

Regarding investigating this beforehand, I have had a few bikes, over about 20 years of riding (one bike was a Trek 2300 (the neon green and yellow model, with clearcoat covered carbon fiber main tubes, from 1990 or so, still have it, carbon tubes still look great (no scrim there)). Easton carbon bars on another bike for probably 7-8 years, what isn't covered with bar tape looks good. Carbon bars, and seatpost, and now rims, on my 1 year old Litespeed -- only carbon part that doesn't look like it did when I purchased it is these wheels, the other parts don't show anything that looks remotely like this scrim on the wheels. Based on what I have seen with these carbon fiber parts over the years, why would I think that these wheels would change in appearance after only a month, when I have a 18 year old frame that hasn't changed a bit, and other assorted carbon fiber parts that look just like they did when I began using them a year or many years ago ?

Doug

It doesn't make sense that it is any sort of delamination. If anything, that would occur in a pattern around the eyelets... not between them. The only reason I can think of for this to occur *over time*, is some sort of caustic chemical... or maybe UV reaction?

The new Reynolds rims I've seen do not have such an obvious scrim, but it is visible. It is the nature of carbon some rims that do not have a cosmetic (ie mostly wasted weight) layer over the top.. I can relate to the OPs misguided assumption that the rims would be visually "perfect", but truly... there is nothing wrong with them. A little investigation of the matter would have revealed that this is normal.

Frames are another story. Apparently most manufactures feel that cosmetics are important enough to take the weight hit. What I meant by investigation is that Reynolds rims normally have scrim at the brake track and the sharp bend at the top... and you may see seams and imperfections elsewhere. They are structurally good rims though.

So you bought them from Colorado Cyclist? Well, you might as well forget about getting your money back or getting a replacement. They are some of the most unprofessional people I have ever dealth with. A few months ago, I tried to buy a very expensive kit from them (and i mean $2000+) and they treated me really arrogantly; like I was a total nobody that they couldn't be bothered wasting time on. After a few weeks of arguing with them about omething as trivial as shipping costs (they wanted $540 for it while USPS only charged $78!), I cancelled the order and bought my stuff elsewhere.

As for the wheels, unless there is some structural damage, which i doubt, they are alright. It might just be me, but just from looking at the pictures, i think the surface looks rather cool...

Looks pretty normal to me. I sell alot of reynolds and many look similar to yours. You are aware that reynolds have a unique carbon lay up that is unidirectional. I would consider this an issue if it effects braking because then it is a liability but otherwise very normal looking when it comes to reynolds. If you want perfect get Bora Ultra's. Even with ZIPP and other rim makers you will find some discrepancies in the finish. some more than others but in the world of posuers looks do matter, sometimes more than performance. we all like to look good getting dropped. if that makes any sense.

go out and ride them, those are some very nice wheels!!!!

You sure whine a lot.

You bought a set of carbon wheels at a price that would have been unheard of two years ago and you are complaining that they are not 'pretty'. Why don't you take a look at some LEW PRO VT-1's, close to five thousand dollars and they almost unfinished.

BTW. I took a look at my DV-46C's and they too have scrim at the spoke bed but it has never bothered me. I guess since they are strong and light I have somehow managed to overlook any cosmetic shortcomings.

I recently got my set from an auction site. The seller advertised them as 2008, but there doesn't seem to be a scrim "line" before the stickers that would indicate them being 2008s. So I'm supposing that they are 2007s. Either way, I do see a very slight layer scrim, but nothing like on your pics. I'll try to get some pics up tonight.

My biggest peeve with these wheels are actually the brakes pulse. Is this a regular thing for Attacks?

My biggest peeve with these wheels are actually the brakes pulse. Is this a regular thing for Attacks?
My DV46C pulse as well - what's odd is that the rear that is slightly out of true does not pulse under braking but the front one that is true does pulse a little. And of course, the occasional squeal :)