Supreme Court says states can demand photo ID for voting

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 8 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - States can require voters to produce photo identification, the Supreme Court ruled Monday, upholding a Republican-inspired law that Democrats say will keep some poor, older and minority voters from casting ballots.
Twenty-five states require some form of ID, and the court's 6-3 decision rejecting a challenge to Indiana's strict voter ID law could encourage others to adopt their own measures. Oklahoma legislators said the decision should help them get a version approved.

The ruling means the ID requirement will be in effect for next week's presidential primary in Indiana, where a significant number of new voters are expected to turn out for the Democratic contest between Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama.

The results could say something about the effect of the law, either because a large number of voters will lack identification and be forced to cast provisional ballots or because the number turns out to be small.

Supreme Court says states can demand photo ID for voting

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 8 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - States can require voters to produce photo identification, the Supreme Court ruled Monday, upholding a Republican-inspired law that Democrats say will keep some poor, older and minority voters from casting ballots.
Twenty-five states require some form of ID, and the court's 6-3 decision rejecting a challenge to Indiana's strict voter ID law could encourage others to adopt their own measures. Oklahoma legislators said the decision should help them get a version approved.

The ruling means the ID requirement will be in effect for next week's presidential primary in Indiana, where a significant number of new voters are expected to turn out for the Democratic contest between Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama.

The results could say something about the effect of the law, either because a large number of voters will lack identification and be forced to cast provisional ballots or because the number turns out to be small.

Anyone who cares about fair voting should care about this.

It's not as if Indiana had some large scale issue with voter fraud. They didn't have one reported case of it, ever...

And this always targets the lower socioeconomic classes, and the minorities, and almost without exception, it's always brought up by republicans.

I wonder where in the Constitution it says that you need a picture ID to vote, because last I heard Scalia tell it, he's an originalist, meaning, taking the Constitution as it was originally written, unless of course it goes against your conservative leanings, then it's open for interpretation.

troll.





joe

The vote went 6-3. That says something.
I don't pretend to be qualified to second guess the Supreme Court. Are you??

The vote went 6-3. That says something.
I don't pretend to be qualified to second guess the Supreme Court. Are you??

This is no better than the good old Poll Taxes they installed in the South, to keep blacks from voting.

The Supreme Court once upheld slavery as well.

It is entirely possible that Supreme Court makes mistakes, especially when it goes with their political leanings (most of the justices were appointed by republicans by the way).

Scalia
Thomas
Roberts
Alito
Stevens
Kennedy
Souter

So they lost one somewhere.

The vote went 6-3. That says something.
I don't pretend to be qualified to second guess the Supreme Court. Are you??
We all are, especially when they are appointed by partisan presidents and approved by rubber-stamp congresses.

So, caring about people being able to vote even if they are poor is "crying about" it? And only Obama supporters would care about poor people being kept from voting?

Have you paid attention to this issue? Do you know how long of a trip it is (for people without cars) to get to a place where they can get a photo ID? Any guess how long a trip that was for some in GA, under THEIR law?

Can we just put you down in the "EF the poor, who cares about their votes" camp?

I guess so. Yet another person who is willing to put partisan interest (given your clear anti-obama stance) over and above the principles of democracy. You are right in line with all the voter supressing republicans across the nation.

Well done!

So, caring about people being able to vote even if they are poor is "crying about" it? And only Obama supporters would care about poor people being kept from voting?

Have you paid attention to this issue? Do you know how long of a trip it is (for people without cars) to get to a place where they can get a photo ID?

Can we just put you down in the "EF the poor, who cares about their votes) camp?

I guess so. Yet another person who is willing to put partisan interest (given your clear anti-obama stance) over and above the principles of democracy. You are right in line with all the voter supressing republicans across the nation.

Well done!

That's the thing Hoo. They should just be able to get into their SUVs, drive down to the local government agency to get an ID, and everything should be OK. Oh wait, yeah, sometimes, or a lot of times, that doesn't happen, or can't happen, and hence, folks who are allowed to vote, can't.

Republicans feign that they're worried about voter fraud, when there are very few real cases of voter fraud recorded.

Refresh my memory. Don't most "poor" people have a driver's licence?
Who in today's world, doesn't have a photo ID?
I can see homeless people, that live in a box, not having one, but who else???

Refresh my memory. Don't most "poor" people have a driver's licence?
WOW! Empathy at its finest. Seems to me a lot of "poor" people can't afford cars and may very well NOT have licenses. Also seems to me there's a FEE for getting a driver's license, which may be too much for a "poor" person to afford. $20 could be a week's worth of food.

This could and should be classified under systemic disenfranchisement.

Way to go, Grumpy. Nice ...

Refresh my memory. Don't most "poor" people have a driver's licence?

Let them eat cake!

Refresh my memory. Don't most "poor" people have a driver's licence?
Who in today's world, doesn't have a photo ID?
I can see homeless people, that live in a box, not having one, but who else???

Believe it or not, people don't have driver's licenses. Why? Because they don't have a car. In NC, if you don't have a car, you don't get to have a driver's license. Photo ID? There are lots of poor folks who don't have a photo ID. Why? Go back to the license thing. Why photo IDs do you have? I'm willing to bet that it's a, yep, driver's license.

Also, in some states now in order to get a driver's license, it takes documents that lots of poor people DON'T have.

And again, voter fraud, not a big issue. It's sort of like making a law against flag burning because there is so much of that going on. Oh wait, there isn't.

They're making laws to prevent something that isn't happening.

They're making laws to prevent something that isn't happening

One word...........Chicago.

They're making laws to prevent something that isn't happening

One word...........Chicago.

Indiana..

You know, where this law took effect.

Refresh my memory. Don't most "poor" people have a driver's licence?
Who in today's world, doesn't have a photo ID?
I can see homeless people, that live in a box, not having one, but who else???

Would 13% bother you? Is that a big enough number?

Opponents of the law point to the three states — Georgia, Michigan and Missouri — where state officials have recently conducted the most systematic studies on the topic. Those states found that at least 4 percent of registered voters lacked the type of ID needed under the strictest voter identification laws. A 2007 study by political scientists at the University of Washington found that about 13 percent of registered voters in Indiana lacked the required identification.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/us/07identity.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1209427315-MZNC0Cn02iOsktxmA2/y5A



So, it seems you don't even have the basic facts on this one, huh? You rail and moan and posture, but you do so out of a high level of ignorance, huh?

You are not alone. But maybe you might want to remember this: when you are on the side of the republicans, chances are you are wrong. And this time you are on their side completely.

13% bothers me, 4% bothers me, .01% bothers me.... ONE VOTER bothers me! If it does not bother you, I question your fundamental committment to democractic principles.

I think the decision is sorta dumb, but really as a practical matter I'll confess I'm really with grumps on this one... Call me naive, but is there really a huge underground economy of voters who are being disenfranchised because they roll with no ID? Do they work? If so, how do they cash their paycheck without ID? Do they collect government benefits of any sort? Again, how did they get the bene's in the first place, and how do they cash their checks?

Right next to Chicago is Gary, Indiana. It's just as funky as Chicago.

The law is for everyone. It's just that it effects Indiana now, because of the primary. It will effect the general Election in November for everyone.
************************************************** *******8
Oops, I was wrong, it's not all 50 states. Only half have a law like this.

A 2007 study by political scientists at the University of Washington found that about 13 percent of registered voters in Indiana lacked the required identification.[/INDENT]

How do they function? Cash checks? Own stuff?

...
Can we just put you down in the "EF the poor, who cares about their votes" camp?

...

But if the poor don't follow the rules, and get their ids, then Ef the poor and disenfranchise them cause they didn't follow the rules... Just like how you wanna disenfranchise MI and FL super delegates cause the party didn't follow the rules...

Good one! :thumbsup:

Right next to Chicago is Gary, Indiana. It's just as funky as Chicago.

The law is for everyone. It's just that it effects Indiana now, because of the primary. It will effect the general Election in November for everyone.

No, the law is NOT for everyone, it was a challenge made by Indiana, which in this ruling opens up for the rest of the country to make similar or harsher laws.

This does not include Chicago, as much as you'd like it to. And of course, once again, voter fraud in Indiana, zilcho. Which means, it was done to disenfranchise a specific group of people (poor, and minorities).

No, the law is NOT for everyone, it was a challenge made by Indiana, which in this ruling opens up for the rest of the country to make similar or harsher laws.

This does not include Chicago, as much as you'd like it to. And of course, once again, voter fraud in Indiana, zilcho. Which means, it was done to disenfranchise a specific group of people (poor, and minorities).

Maybe the reason their record is so clean is that they are ever vigilant and proactive?

How do they function? Cash checks? Own stuff?

It's called cash.

Believe it or not, there are still people who deal in cash. I have friends who don't have a checking account, and pay their bills in cash. Pay everything in cash. Get their paychecks, in cash.

But if the poor don't follow the rules, and get their ids, then Ef the poor and disenfranchise them cause they didn't follow the rules... Just like how you wanna disenfranchise MI and FL super delegates cause the party didn't follow the rules...

Good one! :thumbsup:

Wow. Cross threading. Nice work...

Except, here's where it falls flat. The voters in Michigan and Florida GOT to vote.

These folks won't even be allowed to cast a ballot.

Your Bush vote is showing... Nice going! :thumbsup:

See above. My retraction beat you by a few seconds (you were probably already typing away)

The law took effect in 2006, so people should have been ready for this.

"voter fraud in Indiana, zilcho"...Where you you get this??????

They're making laws to prevent something that isn't happening

One word...........Chicago.
You know what ... no matter what your political beliefs are, what should be important to EVERYONE is election integrity and the guarantee to all citizens (except convicted felons in some states -- another questionable law) the right to vote.

Which is a greater risk? People won't be able to vote because they don't have the proper ID, or voter fraud?

I volunteered for election protection groups in 2004 and was absolutely SHOCKED at the ways in which people had been disenfranchised in previous elections. Florida in 2000 was the tip of the iceberg. You'd find it hard to believe this stuff was happening in the United States of America.

It's sickening, and it makes me feel almost ashamed to see people in this forum who don't give a sh!t about it.

But hey, as long as your guy gets elected, that's all that matters. Right?

I think the decision is sorta dumb, but really as a practical matter I'll confess I'm really with grumps on this one... Call me naive, but is there really a huge underground economy of voters who are being disenfranchised because they roll with no ID? Do they work? If so, how do they cash their paycheck without ID? Do they collect government benefits of any sort? Again, how did they get the bene's in the first place, and how do they cash their checks?

You don't get it, because you don't live it, or have seen it, or know people in that category.

I do. It is entirely possible to live without a photo ID. It might not make sense to you, me, and old Grumps over there, but according to statistics (see Hoo's post), there are a bunch of folks out there who don't meet the ID requirements, and can't.

But if the poor don't follow the rules, and get their ids, then Ef the poor and disenfranchise them cause they didn't follow the rules... Just like how you wanna disenfranchise MI and FL super delegates cause the party didn't follow the rules...

Good one! :thumbsup:
That's why I don't abide by the "They broke the rules, f**k 'em" philosophy. They should do a re-vote, and it should come out of the paychecks of every state official who voted in favor of moving up the dates.

"Let them eat cake!"

Chocolate cake with chocolate frosting, and chocolate cream filling.....(with chocolate sprinkles on top).....washed down with chocolate milk.
Ahhhhhhhhhh.

It's called cash.

Believe it or not, there are still people who deal in cash. I have friends who don't have a checking account, and pay their bills in cash. Pay everything in cash. Get their paychecks, in cash.

Do your friends get PAID in cash? How? Under the table?

And isn't the "pay in cash" part where the "it's too big of a PITA to GET an ID" falls flat? If you have time to stand in line to pay your power bill and your phone bill (and maybe a cell phone bill, and a cable bill, and a water bill, and a sewer bill), don't you have time to stand in line for a state issued ID? Here in NV, the DMV will definitely give you a state issued ID card (non-drivers license).

See above. My retraction beat you by a few seconds (you were probably already typing away)

The law took effect in 2006, so people should have been ready for this.

"voter fraud in Indiana, zilcho"...Where you you get this??????

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/01/14/080114ta_talk_toobin

Toobin, I might add, is a respected writer and journalist who has written extensively about the Supreme Court, and Constitutional matters.

You better stay out of this. You are one of those evil "them"

But if the poor don't follow the rules, and get their ids, then Ef the poor and disenfranchise them cause they didn't follow the rules... Just like how you wanna disenfranchise MI and FL super delegates cause the party didn't follow the rules...

Good one! :thumbsup:

Again, you confuse ME with the DNC. We are different. Try to keep it straight.

Also, voting in elections is different than voting in primaries. Primary rules are made by the parties, not the government. Different issues are involved.

That's why I don't abide by the "They broke the rules, f**k 'em" philosophy. They should do a re-vote, and it should come out of the paychecks of every state official who voted in favor of moving up the dates.

I'd be all for a re-do. The original vote shouldn't be upheld in no form though. Why? No campaigning was allowed, and Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan.

Re-do yes? Count the votes that were there already? Nope.

Do your friends get PAID in cash? How? Under the table?

Why do you think there are so many check cashing places in poor neighborhoods?

And are you aware there are often a lack of banks in such neighborhoods?

Do your friends get PAID in cash? How? Under the table?

And isn't the "pay in cash" part where the "it's too big of a PITA to GET an ID" falls flat? If you have time to stand in line to pay your power bill and your phone bill (and maybe a cell phone bill, and a cable bill, and a water bill, and a sewer bill), don't you have time to stand in line for a state issued ID? Here in NV, the DMV will definitely give you a state issued ID card (non-drivers license).

Yes, they do.

It happens. Just because you don't see it, or can't accept it, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Again, you confuse ME with the DNC. We are different. Try to keep it straight.

Also, voting in elections is different than voting in primaries. Primary rules are made by the parties, not the government. Different issues are involved.

Plus, those folks got to vote, and these people, won't get to vote. Big difference.

Maybe the reason their record is so clean is that they are ever vigilant and proactive?

Nope, maybe because it doesn't really happen is all.

See the link below.

Why do you think there are so many check cashing places in poor neighborhoods?

And are you aware there are often a lack of banks in such neighborhoods?

So what if there aren't banks.... does the lack of IDs cause a dearth of banks? I don't think a lack of banks has anything to do with a lack of IDs... more likely banks don't wanna locate in poorer neighborhoods where foot traffic is high, deposits (per person) are lower and the risk of crime is greater. Just guessing.

A client of mine employs hundreds of immigrants in his business. These employees would be classified as working poor. His employees lobbied him incessantly to pay them by direct deposit to Wells Fargo bank, because WFB has electronic transfer privileges in Mexico. So these poor guys figured out a way to get an ID so they can tx funds directly back home.

Do your friends get PAID in cash? How? Under the table?

And isn't the "pay in cash" part where the "it's too big of a PITA to GET an ID" falls flat? If you have time to stand in line to pay your power bill and your phone bill (and maybe a cell phone bill, and a cable bill, and a water bill, and a sewer bill), don't you have time to stand in line for a state issued ID? Here in NV, the DMV will definitely give you a state issued ID card (non-drivers license).
A lot of people in poverty live multiple people to a dwelling. That's one way to not have deal with paying utility bills, etc.

Guess it's no surprise how all those poor people in new orleans were so easily forgotten about, eh?

Yes, they do.

It happens. Just because you don't see it, or can't accept it, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Edjumicate me! I want to understand HOW it happens. Learn me please, that's what I'm askin for!

Voter fraud is so easy. When my kid moved out of state, his name stayed on the voter rolls for the next two elections. For all I know, It's still there.
With all the moving around in a city, and a voter reg. for each new location, don't you see how easy it is for massive fraud. Do you really think that those people check those signatures that closely, when people are lined up 30 deep??

Which is a greater risk? People won't be able to vote because they don't have the proper ID, or voter fraud?


That is THE question and both answers are correct, IMO.

Voter fraud has been blamed directly on Bush winning two elections. That, apparently, caused a lot of the disenfranchisement. Chicken and the egg?


I think my take would be to do everything possible to reduce the possibility of fraud to as close a number to zero as possible THEN work on restoring faith in the system. IOW: I'd vote for the ID requirement.


/That's my view as someone who doesn't have a dog in the race.


<script type="text/javascript">var dd1 = new YAHOO.util.DDProxy('maindiv');dd1.setHandleElId('t itlediv');</script>

Supreme Court says states can demand photo ID for voting

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 8 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - States can require voters to produce photo identification, the Supreme Court ruled Monday, upholding a Republican-inspired law that Democrats say will keep some poor, older and minority voters from casting ballots.
Twenty-five states require some form of ID, and the court's 6-3 decision rejecting a challenge to Indiana's strict voter ID law could encourage others to adopt their own measures. Oklahoma legislators said the decision should help them get a version approved.

The ruling means the ID requirement will be in effect for next week's presidential primary in Indiana, where a significant number of new voters are expected to turn out for the Democratic contest between Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama.

The results could say something about the effect of the law, either because a large number of voters will lack identification and be forced to cast provisional ballots or because the number turns out to be small.Tough luck then! No ID no voting. It's the only and BEST way to defer fraudulent voting. Before we had that law here, dead people were voting. NO ID, NO VOTE!

If you cannot "afford" a picture ID, then yes maybe the state should pay for it. If you can prove you are below a certain income and REALLY cannot afford it.

Tough luck then! No ID no voting. It's the only and BEST way to defer fraudulent voting. Before we had that law here, dead people were voting. NO ID, NO VOTE!

If you cannot "afford" a picture ID, then yes maybe the state should pay for it. If you can prove you are below a certain income and REALLY cannot afford it.

And can prove you aren't really dead.

Refresh my memory. Don't most "poor" people have a driver's licence?
Who in today's world, doesn't have a photo ID?
I can see homeless people, that live in a box, not having one, but who else???

aren't there thousands of people who live in major cities that don't have driver's licenses? That rely on public transportation? Even those who are pretty well off?

How many poor people, if they don't have a car, would have a driver's license? And what other type of photo ID would they have if they didn't have a license?

"voter fraud in Indiana, zilcho"...Where you you get this??????

staright from the Supreme Court decision.

The record contains no evidence of any such fraud actually occurring in Indiana at any time in its history.

Tough luck then! No ID no voting. It's the only and BEST way to defer fraudulent voting. Before we had that law here, dead people were voting. NO ID, NO VOTE!


But a photo ID will do nothing to eliminate the type of fraud Grumpy is referring to, someone who has his name oin the rolls in different voter districts, or even states. they'll just end up showing an ID in two different places.

Tough luck then! No ID no voting. It's the only and BEST way to defer fraudulent voting. Before we had that law here, dead people were voting. NO ID, NO VOTE!

If you cannot "afford" a picture ID, then yes maybe the state should pay for it. If you can prove you are below a certain income and REALLY cannot afford it.

So how do you show an ID for an absentee ballot, which is the method of the vast majority of voter fraud? Showing up in person is not the way the majority of voter fraud happens, which is why the laws require ID are clearly not designed to stop fraud, but are instead designed to make it harder for people in certain demographics to vote.

aren't there thousands of people who live in major cities that don't have driver's licenses? That rely on public transportation? Even those who are pretty well off?

How many poor people, if they don't have a car, would have a driver's license? And what other type of photo ID would they have if they didn't have a license?

Where do you live? Does your DMV really not issue a non-DL state ID?

That's why I don't abide by the "They broke the rules, f**k 'em" philosophy. They should do a re-vote, and it should come out of the paychecks of every state official who voted in favor of moving up the dates.I am with you! I live in Florida and our Governer is a total baffoon on this one. No, my should NOT count. I knew this when I voted because my state clearly broke the rules that the DNC stated.

I heard where they were saying on the radio about primarires don't count toward "Disenfranchising" voters because these are NOT run by the Federal Goverment, but by Politiocal Partiers and do not fall under Federal Voting rules or something to that effect. It kinda made sense.

But there should be a re-vote in Florida and Michigan. You be suprised on how mnay people here went to the polls and did NOT vote for a camidate because they kew it would no count.

The Florida Rep and thwe SDNC can kiss man a$$ as well!!

Screw this whole primary crap thing with all these states voting when they want. Have the Federao Gov step in and crwate a National primary day for Rep/Dem/Ind?wacko fringe croups, etc to all vote on the same day.

get this crtap over in one day, then give the canidates 6 months before the election to sling mud and persuade us to vote for them.

Sorry Iowa and NH!

So how do you show an ID for an absentee ballot, which is the method of the vast majority of voter fraud? Showing up in person is not the way the majority of voter fraud happens, which is why the laws require ID are clearly not designed to stop fraud, but are instead designed to make it harder for people in certain demographics to vote.Then have those certified maybe by a Notary? So at least one aspect with ID's help. People vote here 3-4x and bragged about years ago here in person using dead famliy members names. Will you ever stop all fraud? No.

That is THE question and both answers are correct, IMO.

Voter fraud has been blamed directly on Bush winning two elections. That, apparently, caused a lot of the disenfranchisement. Chicken and the egg?


Since when? Everything I have read blamed it on disenfranchisement of voters, not fraud unless you're talking about changing votes rather than people voting when they shouldn't be.


I think my take would be to do everything possible to reduce the possibility of fraud to as close a number to zero as possible THEN work on restoring faith in the system. IOW: I'd vote for the ID requirement.


My take is that someone should show and prove there is a problem before creating new problems with a fix for a problem that has not been shown to exist except in the minds of politicians.

Then have those certified maybe by a Notary? So at least one aspect with ID's help. People vote here 3-4x and bragged about years ago here in person using dead famliy members names. Will you ever stop all fraud? No.

And they did it with absentee ballots, right? I live in an area with a high population but I guarantee that poll workers would notice if I showed up to vote 3-4x in person. Requiring people to get an ID for in-person voting effectively means excluding legitimate voters for little to no fraud prevention.

but are instead designed to make it harder for people in certain demographics to vote.Sorry, that's a bull crap excuse. if you don't have ID, then vote absentee or go get a State issued ID. IMO, everyone should have an ID regardless if you can "afforded it." Those so called demographics can afford booze, drugs, gambling, etc but not an ID? Ok, not everyone but you know what I mean. The again, the States should help anyone who needs ID to get one. WE can give Food Stamps and other crap, why not IDs?

It's revealing that a Clinton supporter thinks it's OK to make it harder for legitimate citizens to vote. Hell, we wouldn't want the poor to be able to exercise power, now would we?

Can't win straight up?

Gotta love the democratic process.......it's so revealing.

Len

And they did it with absentee ballots, right? I live in an area with a high population but I guarantee that poll workers would notice if I showed up to vote 3-4x in person. Requiring people to get an ID for in-person voting effectively means excluding legitimate voters for little to no fraud prevention.If there is not intent to fraud, then why not show ID? Polling places SHOULD know who your are and if you belong. What I should just be able to walk up, say I am Joe Blow and vote? Hell, let's make sure you are here LEGALLY before voting!!

Anyone can just walk up, use someone's name and vote. then when I go in they say sorry, you voted earlier today :rolleyes:.

It's revealing that a Clinton supporter thinks it's OK to make it harder for legitimate citizens to vote. Hell, we wouldn't want the poor to be able to exercise power, now would we?

Can't win straight up?

Gotta love the democratic process.......it's so revealing.

LenWell I hate that turd (Hillary)! So there you go! I am an Obama supporter right now and fell you should have some type of ID or verification to vote. Poor or not, you SHOULD be able and have to prove who your are! Poor or Rich or in between ahs nothing to do with this in my view. PROVE you have the right to vote and your ARE a legitimate voter. Not all citizens poor or rich have the right to vote.

If there is not intent to fraud, then why not show ID?

Because some people don't have ID.

Money is not the only factor in getting one, either. In fact, in Indiana you apparently can fill out forms to get the state to pay for the ID if you can't afford it, but access to state facilities that issue IDs and not being able to take time off work are legitimate issues for some people.

Sorry, that's a bull crap excuse. if you don't have ID, then vote absentee or go get a State issued ID. IMO, everyone should have an ID regardless if you can "afforded it." Those so called demographics can afford booze, drugs, gambling, etc but not an ID? Ok, not everyone but you know what I mean. The again, the States should help anyone who needs ID to get one. WE can give Food Stamps and other crap, why not IDs?

Why should everyone have an ID? What states have a law requiring you have an ID? Honest question.

Papers please?

Granted, it is difficult to live these days without an ID, but if people want to or are forced to do it by circumstances, that is fine with me.

Republicans feign that they're worried about voter fraud, when there are very few real cases of voter fraud recorded.

Isn't disenfranchising voters a form of fraud? Without that they have a hard time "winning."

Actually, this link shows how far the Republicans are willing to go.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/28/us/politics/28voting.html?scp=1&sq=league+of+women+voters&st=nyt

Election Day in Florida May Look Familiar


By DAMIEN CAVE
Published: April 28, 2008
MIAMI — The League of Women Voters in Florida and its 27 local groups have helped thousands of residents register to vote over the years.

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Clipboards to be used by workers canvassing for voter registration at the Acorn headquarters in Miami in mid-April.
But just over a week ago, the organization’s leaders said they would have to stop their current drive because the state’s top election official planned to enforce strict deadlines and fines of up to $1,000 for groups that lose voter registration forms or turn them in late.

“We’re an all-volunteer organization,” said Dianne Wheatley-Giliotti, president of the League of Women Voters in Florida, which plans to sue. “It’s a matter of being able to protect the leagues from liability.”

Eight years after the debacle of “hanging chads,” Florida once again seems to be courting electoral trouble. A handful of laws have been passed since the 2000 presidential recount, with state officials saying they bring order to a chaotic system.

“Some say we err on the side of caution,” said Joe Pickens, a Republican from Palatka who served on the Florida House’s Ethics and Elections Committee in 2005 and 2006. “I would say that’s the place we should be.”

But Election Day may end up looking oddly familiar. According to independent elections experts at Pew’s Electionline.org and other organizations, it is now harder to vote here than in nearly every other state in the nation. Some critics predict that tens of thousands of potential voters will be kept off the rolls — many of them poor, black or Hispanic.

In many ways, the battle over the laws reflects the larger national debate over how to overhaul the election system after the 2000 recount. Congress tried to institute a uniform guide for voter registration, but the compromise legislation left many details to the states, and partisanship arose in the void. Republicans typically demanded high standards of accuracy to eliminate voter fraud, while Democrats focused on making voting as easy as possible.

Many states decided that disputes would be worked out case by case, without written rules. But more ambitious states, including Florida, responded with new policies or laws. By 2006, for example, at least 11 states had “no match, no vote” provisions, rejecting potential voters whose Social Security numbers or driver’s license numbers did not match state databases.

Civil rights groups challenged much of the new legislation in court, and they often won. But in Florida, many of the cases remain unresolved.

Three laws in particular are at issue, including a “no match, no vote” measure; the provision managing voter registration drives conducted by third parties, like the League of Women Voters; and a law that would keep a voter from correcting mistakes or omissions on a registration form in the final month before an election and would bar that person from having his or her vote counted.

Two recent federal rulings have gone in the state’s favor.

On March 25, a Federal District Court in Miami rejected a challenge to the provision on corrections and omissions.

An oversight can be as simple as failing to check what many Florida residents call the “crazy box.” It asks people to affirm: “I have not been adjudicated mentally incapacitated with respect to voting or, if I have, my competency has been restored.”

So far, about 3 percent of voter registrations collected by the Florida chapter of Acorn, a national organizing group, have lacked the required checkmarks.

In the second decision, on April 3, the United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit, in Atlanta, sent a case challenging the “no match, no vote” law back to a Federal District Court, reversing an earlier injunction without ruling whether the law was unconstitutional.

Other states, meanwhile, have been moving in the opposite direction. Now, 33 states allow voters to amend forms after their registration deadlines. In 2006, a judge in Washington State struck down a “no match, no vote” law, and at least six other states have abandoned similar provisions.

Election lawyers say Florida’s Republican-controlled government has introduced more restrictions on the voting process than other states since 2000 and has fought harder to keep them.

Critics say state officials are subtly trying to block new voters, many of whom tend to vote for Democrats, from participating.

Election Day in Florida May Look Familiar
April 28, 2008
(Page 2 of 2)



“It’s really about politicians trying to game the system,” said Michael Slater, deputy director of Project Vote, a voting rights organization based in Arkansas. “They’ve done that by adding all these bureaucratic obstacles to voting, and then when people can’t jump over them, they blame the voter.”

Gov. Charlie Crist of Florida, a Republican, sidestepped specific questions about the state’s approach.

“We want to have as many people vote as want to vote that are legally registered to vote,” Mr. Crist said. He also offered to “do some campaigning to encourage people to register to vote.”

Some volunteers actually registering voters are not pleased. The Florida statute governing such groups is somewhat unusual. Besides Florida, only New Mexico assesses fines on them. The law is also a second try.

The first effort, in 2006, called for fines of up to $5,000 per form, but it was struck down in federal court after the League of Women Voters filed suit.

The state appealed but in the meantime passed an amended law, cutting the fines but keeping some original elements in place. A “standstill agreement” between the state and the plaintiffs kept the new law from being enforced, until Secretary of State Kurt S. Browning gave notice of his plans in court documents in late March. In a statement, his office said it was obligated to enforce the new law.

His office said it had not started assessing penalties. It has also acknowledged that the law is vague on whether the cap of $1,000 would apply to an entire organization, a chapter or individual volunteers.

Ms. Wheatley-Giliotti of the League of Women Voters said her group’s roughly 3,000 members could not risk paying the fines. The organization stopped helping voters register for the first time in 2006, before a federal judge struck down the original law that August.

Now, she said, the group must stop again because some local leagues have a budget of only $1,000.

Ms. Wheatley-Giliotti said: “I just believe it’s making it much more difficult for many sectors of the population to register. It’s groups like the League of Women Voters that take extra steps so that seniors, the poor, the underrepresented have an opportunity to register to vote conveniently.”

That is THE question and both answers are correct, IMO.

Voter fraud has been blamed directly on Bush winning two elections. That, apparently, caused a lot of the disenfranchisement. Chicken and the egg?
Actually, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but election fraud is when people are prevented from voting (i.e. voter rolls illegally purged, ballots thrown out, voters turned away from polling places for illegitimate reasons, working machines locked away in rooms to create long lines); voter fraud is when the actual voter is fraudulent (i.e. voting more than once, voting in the wrong district). We blame election fraud on the Bush victories. Republicans have since made voter fraud an "issue," yet every bill or action they try to pass through would likely, if not definitely, cause mass disenfranchisement. No one has yet to provide evidence of a worrisome amount of voter fraud in recent elections; however, the evidence is overwhelming (and startling) of different cases of election fraud.

Democrats say will keep some poor, older and minority voters from casting ballots.

Well we know it will certainly keep some dead people from voting .... multiple times even.

Well we know it will certainly keep some dead people from voting .... multiple times even.
You got evidence? Stats? Anything?

Oh wait, I forgot who I was talking to.

Do your friends get PAID in cash? How? Under the table? When I was working construction, it was all done legit: on payday the assistant superintendant would drive a bunch of workers down to the bank where the company had its account and cash the workers' checks. A lot of them were too poor to have bank accounts and many were illiterate so they couldn't manage the bank paperwork even if they had had enough money to maintain the minimum balance or pay the monthly account fees for a bank account.

Again, the workers were citizens, not illegal aliens and the company was paying all the FICA etc. and maintaining tax records and withholding. But checks were worse than useless to the workers, so the assistant super had to help them cash their paychecks.

Yeah I'll go ask one of the dead guys who voted. :rolleyes:

Libs are the most corrupt group of people when it comes to elections. That's a known fact. Just ask Mayor Daily. :)

Hanging chads. That crook Gore almost got away with it. LOL!!!!

Yeah I'll go ask one of the dead guys who voted. :rolleyes:

Libs are the most corrupt group of people when it comes to elections. That's a known fact. Just ask Mayor Daily. :)

Hanging chads. That crook Gore almost got away with it. LOL!!!!
No really. Do you have any evidence/reports/proof that, I don't know, even 10 people in the entire country voted fraudulently in any election since 1996? Anything at all?

Guantlet = Thrown. Whatcha got for us?

I got as much as you got in terms of the election being stolen from Gore.

I got as much as you got in terms of the election being stolen from Gore.
Oh, do you?

From 2000 and 2004.

Your turn.

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/index.html

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/08/0080696

http://www.democracyfornewmexico.com/democracy_for_new_mexico/files/NewMexico2004ElectionDataReport-v2.pdf

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.28A.Election.Fraud.htm

http://election2000.stanford.edu/electionreporthouse.pdf

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch9.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1127468.stm

http://freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/983

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/main.htm

http://www.eac.gov/election_survey_2004/pdf/EDS%20exec.%20summary.pdf

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/www.democrats.org/pdfs/ohvrireport/fullreport.pdf

http://www.electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2004_Edison-Mitofsky.pdf

http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/OH/Ohio-Exit-Polls-2004.pdf

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050109/NEWS09/501090334&SearchID=73195662517954

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7422-2004Oct28.html

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041027/NEWS09/410270361/-1/NEWS

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041030/NEWS09/410300450/-1/NEWS

http://www.prisonsucks.com/scans/Ohio%20Felon%20Voting%20Rights%20Paper.pdf

http://www.clevelandvotes.org/news/reports/Analyses_Full_Report.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64737-2004Dec14?language=printer

http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/2004/12/12/20041212-A1-03.html&rfr=nwsl

http://www4.vindy.com/basic/news/281829446390855.php

a frickin pony keg of pawn3d

doh and double doh!

for those folks unaware of ghetto economies please buy this book and needing an edjumacation. it is written by a good friend, and former band member

http://books.google.com/books?id=FkkrAAAACAAJ&dq=Sudhir+Alladi+Venkatesh&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Sudhir+Venkatesh&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=3&cad=author-navigational

read this one as well for a taste of ghetto life

http://books.google.com/books?id=rk7Dd0k_SG8C&dq=Sudhir+Alladi+Venkatesh&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Sudhir+Venkatesh&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1&cad=author-navigational

so tell me, who is gonna spend $3 (round trip bus fair) and an hour each direction to sit at the DMV and wait for 2 plus hrs to pay $25 to get a drivers license when they don't even own a car??????

besides affecting the poor this also makes it hard on the elderly, but phuck them for getting old and losing their vision

man the opinions being derived from sheer ignorance sometimes are dazzling

lastly any Hil supporter should be bothered by this as well. These are Dem voters, if she wins the primary she will need these votes to carry certain states. Once again showing the absolute lack of LT thinking in the Hillary camp. May serve you now (like picking McCain over Obama in the readiness test) but will screw you in November. Dumb de dumb dumb dumb.

Again, you confuse ME with the DNC. We are different. Try to keep it straight.

Also, voting in elections is different than voting in primaries. Primary rules are made by the parties, not the government. Different issues are involved.

Actually, I'm very sympathetic to the issue of disenfranchising the poor and elderly who don't have ID...

I just thought I'd throw "the rules" at you... :wink:

Dang Dr. Sears, are you just bored or was it too much caffeine?

I think Steamy's screen just did an Austin Powers/Dr. Evil time warp...

Is there a possible way you could summarize those links. I think I'd sooner kill myself than open all of them...

Thanks.

Dang Dr. Sears, are you just bored or was it too much caffeine?

I think Steamy's screen just did an Austin Powers/Dr. Evil time warp...

Is there a possible way you could summarize those links. I think I'd sooner kill myself than open all of them...

Thanks.
LOL!

Summary:

November, 2000
Bush: If I win Florida I'll win it all.
Katherine Harris: Consider it done.

November, 2004
Bush: If I win Ohio I'll win it all.
Ken Blackwell: Consider it done.

Did any of those links include Diebold? Cause I think the president of that company was on that team as well...

Thanks, now I can put my seppuku sword away...

LOL!

Summary:

November, 2000
Bush: If I win Florida I'll win it all.
Katherine Harris: Consider it done.

November, 2004
Bush: If I win Ohio I'll win it all.
Ken Blackwell: Consider it done.

Did any of those links include Diebold? Cause I think the president of that company was on that team as well...
As in Diebold CEO Walton O'Dell, who wrote the infamous ''I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year" line, and who also organized a fund-
raising party for Cheney that raised $600,000?

The Diebold systems are designed to eliminate accountability. No paper trails. So any kind of malfeasance is hard to prove. But there's plenty of reason to worry, and there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that the machines "delivered," just as O'Dell promised they would.

http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/summary.html

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/27423.html

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/1742/

http://www.bartcop.com/111102fraud.htm

a frickin pony keg of pawn3d

doh and double doh!

for those folks unaware of ghetto economies please buy this book and needing an edjumacation. it is written by a good friend, and former band member

http://books.google.com/books?id=FkkrAAAACAAJ&dq=Sudhir+Alladi+Venkatesh&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Sudhir+Venkatesh&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=3&cad=author-navigational

read this one as well for a taste of ghetto life

http://books.google.com/books?id=rk7Dd0k_SG8C&dq=Sudhir+Alladi+Venkatesh&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Sudhir+Venkatesh&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1&cad=author-navigational

so tell me, who is gonna spend $3 (round trip bus fair) and an hour each direction to sit at the DMV and wait for 2 plus hrs to pay $25 to get a drivers license when they don't even own a car??????

besides affecting the poor this also makes it hard on the elderly, but phuck them for getting old and losing their vision

man the opinions being derived from sheer ignorance sometimes are dazzling

lastly any Hil supporter should be bothered by this as well. These are Dem voters, if she wins the primary she will need these votes to carry certain states. Once again showing the absolute lack of LT thinking in the Hillary camp. May serve you now (like picking McCain over Obama in the readiness test) but will screw you in November. Dumb de dumb dumb dumb.
Those look like good reading. Thanks for the tip.

Actually, I'm very sympathetic to the issue of disenfranchising the poor and elderly who don't have ID...

I just thought I'd throw "the rules" at you... :wink:


As I said, the rules for counting delegates is a party matter, and the rules are whatever they want them to be. The equal protection clause does not apply, so the supreme court has said, to political parties. They set the rules, period. And it is Clinton complaining about the rules now, after she agreed to them. It's like she was fine with money going into free parking in monopoly, until someone else landed on it.

There are rules for the backyard game, and rules for the NFL. Try to keep track of which game is going on.

LOL!!! Well I guess that proves it. What a moreon. You should send that to you Congressman and ask for a recount. LOL!!!

LOL!!! Well I guess that proves it. What a moreon. You should send that to you Congressman and ask for a recount. LOL!!!
Bravo, Steamy. Bravo.

As I said, the rules for counting delegates is a party matter, and the rules are whatever they want them to be. The equal protection clause does not apply, so the supreme court has said, to political parties. They set the rules, period. And it is Clinton complaining about the rules now, after she agreed to them. It's like she was fine with money going into free parking in monopoly, until someone else landed on it.

There are rules for the backyard game, and rules for the NFL. Try to keep track of which game is going on.

Not to mention, two of her top campaign advisers were at the DNC when the rules were drawn up, and the decisions to not seat any delegates from states who broke them were put into place.

So, two, threee, or how many years ago, they make the decision not to seat those delegates.

Today, they cry and complain about how unfair those rules to not seat the delegates are.

a frickin pony keg of pawn3d

doh and double doh!

for those folks unaware of ghetto economies please buy this book and needing an edjumacation. it is written by a good friend, and former band member

http://books.google.com/books?id=FkkrAAAACAAJ&dq=Sudhir+Alladi+Venkatesh&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Sudhir+Venkatesh&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=3&cad=author-navigational

so tell me, who is gonna spend $3 (round trip bus fair) and an hour each direction to sit at the DMV and wait for 2 plus hrs to pay $25 to get a drivers license when they don't even own a car??????

besides affecting the poor this also makes it hard on the elderly, but phuck them for getting old and losing their vision


The first book looks interesting, I'll have to check that out. Although I believe many of the photo ID voting laws provide for free ID cards so you don't actually have to get a drivers license or pay a fee, you just have to spend time getting the cards done. (but hey, you have to spend time to go and actually vote as well)