well after a long time lusting over all these sexy Ti bikes i've decided on taking my first step into Ti by purchasing a frame. i've narrowed my choice down to 3 #1 a moots VAmoots (2,324.99 dollars) and #2 Merlin Cyrene (2,010 dollars) and #3 (not really a contender but close) Litespeed Tuscany. well i'm a big fan of traditional styling. thin sexy tubes and classic lines, but i also like a bike to perform well. my riding consists of rides from 30-50 miles 3 times a week lots of climbs and lots of fast descending. i'd like a bike that can handle my huge 170 pound body and last forever. right now i'm riding a giant tcr comp 1 and love it but i NEED another. thanks

Traditional styling, thin sexy tubes, and classic lines make me think of Merlin. Moots makes some nice frames but I don't see them as traditional, thin tubed or classic.

yeah i hear ya about the moots but it's somewhere in between. what i meant really was that i prefer the more traditional look to the newer looks with the over sized down tubes and geometric tube shapes (other than circle )

If you are looking at Moots and Merlin, you have also got to include Seven Cycles in the mix. They offer the Alaris (straight gauge 3-2.5 Ti) for $1,995 or the Axiom (double-butted 3-2.5 Ti) for $2,695 both custom built to your specs. In addition to having the sexiest seat and chain stays of the bunch, they also offer many other advantages over these two.

Moots uses 6-4 Ti which is rolled and welded from a sheet (seamed tubing). It is very tough, but has a decreased fatigue life compared to 3-2.5 seamless Ti. I also got the feeling that Moots were less customizable than Seven. You do get the custom sizing, but from what I read in their litature and on their web site and from talking to my local Moots dealer, they don't put as much emphasis on your weigh, riding style, or ride charactoristics when building your frame. I also prefer the satin finish of the Seven better than the shot peening of the Moots. The Vamoots is straight gauge Ti therefore at $2325 is more expensive than the $1,995 Seven Alaris.

The Merlin Cyrene is beautiful with all of the engraving instead of decals, but it too uses straight gauge tubing and is therefore more expensive then the Seven. One other fault I had with the Merlin is the integrated headset. It makes it impossible to use a Chris King headset as a $2000+ deserves. I don't know much about the custom options for Merlin.

I ordered a Seven Axiom on Aug. 25th and the estimated ship date is the week of Sept. 23rd. I have had nothing short of a great experience with both Seven and my local dealer (infact three Seven dealers as I was out of state when I was first introduced to them). I also had an opportunity to ride one for about 40 miles and it was nothing short of thrilling. It could climb like a goat, tracked like on rails (during the descent), and was increadibly smooth. I was also unable to feel any flex in the bb and that was on a frame with a stiffness rating of 7 out of 10.

I'm sure you will have a great ride no matter which bike you choose, but I wanted to add my observations as I just went through the same decisions.

Good luck,
Jason

Well, if you are going to add to the list, then you have to include Tom Kellogg at Spectrum. That's where I'm going when I finally pony-up for a custom Ti.

Moots uses 6-4 Ti which is rolled and welded from a sheet (seamed tubing).
The Vamoots (http://www.moots.com/bike-rd-vamoots.php) is built with 3/2.5 straight gauge tubing. The Vamoots SL (http://www.moots.com/bike-rd-sl.php) is built with Reynolds 6/4 seamless tubing.

Having ridden thousands of miles on similar models of Merlin, Litespeed and the Moots, I'd go with the Vamoots.


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3349

man those welds are incredible

I sold my Litespeed Tuscany for a Vamoots (3/2.5) and have no regrets. Hit 50 mph today and not a wobble to be had. I'm 5'10 a little under 170 and it performs beautifully.

I'm going in the opposite direction from you. I'm considering (means I'm getting soon) a Parlee to add a carbon bike to the house. I am also considering Seven Elium (ti/cf), but think I'll end up going full cf. Test rides planned at Parlee in October.

I think the Moots is a super frame, the welds: phenomenal, and I'd bet the current quality control is superior to post-ABG Litespeed/Merlin. Guru make a nice frame too. Kellogg is a great traditional builder whose ti frames are welded by Merlin.
But you should also look at Kish, especially if you are in CA. or OR. (He lives in CA.; teaches 6 times a year in OR.). The work is really great, the service incredible, and it's custom. Kish taught a lot of the Moots welders I believe. You can see the welds on my frame, on this forum:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=14696

Great pic of the Vamoots welds. Their "factory" is cool, small building in Steamboat Springs. Cadence90 is correct about the quality. I'm 6-1 180lbs and love a stiff and responsive ride. I'm partial to Cdale Caad7. I rode a Vamoots, Campy Record, and Campy Neutrons on a 110 miler up and down and all around, lots of climbing. Fast, smooth, responsive. Not stiff enough in the BB for me, but I'm biased to very stiff frames.

Ti-Boy mentioned the Parlee - wow - the Z2 (or Z1 if you want custom) is fast, very stiff and yet the smoothest ride. Unbelievable. That's would be my choice. I think the Z2 is about $2400. Z1 $3400.

Great pic of the Vamoots welds. Their "factory" is cool, small building in Steamboat Springs. Cadence90 is correct about the quality. I'm 6-1 180lbs and love a stiff and responsive ride. I'm partial to Cdale Caad7. I rode a Vamoots, Campy Record, and Campy Neutrons on a 110 miler up and down and all around, lots of climbing. Fast, smooth, responsive. Not stiff enough in the BB for me, but I'm biased to very stiff frames.

Ti-Boy mentioned the Parlee - wow - the Z2 (or Z1 if you want custom) is fast, very stiff and yet the smoothest ride. Unbelievable. That's would be my choice. I think the Z2 is about $2400. Z1 $3400.

Ti-Boy is right on with the Parlee. I sell them, recently started, and they are just fantastic- great ride quality, priced right and Jonathan is great to work with. I have a Z2 on the way for me to ride....I'm selling my C50 and some others....Parlee is my new weapon of choice!! I'll be selling a lot of these.

so I pulled the trigger on the Z2. The geometry on the 57 is just right. Z3 leaves to much seatpost for my liking. 6 weeks seems like an eternity, but oh so worth the wait. Campy record. Deda bar and stem. Life is good.

Cheers---

Blurry,
without a doubt I'd go with the moots out of those choices. I'm a frame-builder (steel), but a couple of years ago we painted all of moots anniversary bikes for them. They are by far the best production Ti out there, hands down. They are great people to work with and their bikes are phenomonal. My .02 cents worth.

Blur - I had a Moots Vamoots, a Merlin XLCompact, and Litespeed Vortex. Of the 3, I liked the moots the best - smooth, stiff enough, and beautiful finish. In fact, until I had gone carbon, the moots was my favorite bike of all time. I'm your size - 175, 5'11''.

I now have a c50 but if I can convince my wife that multiple bikes is a "good" thing - another moots would be my choice.

DO THE MOOTS!

I love the bike, but after 2 years I still find myself getting used to the looks of the compact frame. If money was no object I would go for the MOOTS frame which I consider rolling art work. NO ONE in the business has nicer looking welds. ;)

Morgan

Well, if you are going to add to the list, then you have to include Tom Kellogg at Spectrum. That's where I'm going when I finally pony-up for a custom Ti.
Just a rebadged Merlin basically with a few of Kellogg's twists and custom geometry. I prefer the look of the Merlins to Tom's personally. If you want a Kellogg frame go with the steel IMO. He actually makes those himself.

Great pic of the Vamoots welds. Their "factory" is cool, small building in Steamboat Springs. Cadence90 is correct about the quality. I'm 6-1 180lbs and love a stiff and responsive ride. I'm partial to Cdale Caad7. I rode a Vamoots, Campy Record, and Campy Neutrons on a 110 miler up and down and all around, lots of climbing. Fast, smooth, responsive. Not stiff enough in the BB for me, but I'm biased to very stiff frames.

Ti-Boy mentioned the Parlee - wow - the Z2 (or Z1 if you want custom) is fast, very stiff and yet the smoothest ride. Unbelievable. That's would be my choice. I think the Z2 is about $2400. Z1 $3400.
I toured the factory this summer during Ride the Rockies. Sweet facility there. Super great bikes and people that work there. If I had the money it would be a tough choice.

moots it is. i'll probably end up ordering it through wrenchscience, but i'll shop around locally to see if i can find a good moots dealer in the area. has anyone done any business with wrenchscience? are they reputable? well anyhow thanks for alll the help, i'll post pics when it arrives.

I look forward to hearing how the Moots goes. I've been going thru a similar decision with Seven thrown in the game and decided on the Seven. But at any given moment, wonder if I should've gone Moots, Litespeed, etc.

My Lbs is most connected with Seven, which was a big factor in my decision. Plus I'm not exactly a boiler plate build and the Seven accomodates that without additional $'s.

But they are all beautiful and no doubt have their pros and cons. How lucky we are to have these options. Hope to get my specs done over the weekend and get the order in. And then wait.

Mark

The Seven frames are incredible, and soooo much sexier that Moots, Merlin, Litespeed all others combined. I've been riding the Odonata for many years now, have frame no. 31, worked with Rob Vandermark hisself to build it and it's still such a joy to ride - it gets me to work every morning and races on weedends and it's still so sweet to throw a leg over. Had another commuter bike but why? Ti doesn't fail and it's a heck of a lot more fun. The welds on this frame are done by hand, but so close to perfect. The Moots is too machine like for me.
Seven's curved chain stays are stiff, look great and let my fat feet stay clear. Had one seatstay come unglued once, and experienced the best warranty fix I've ever had - super fast fix, the frame came back with all new decals looking better than new and I got a free Seven jersey for my trouble. Go with Seven.

Litespeed - Nice Bikes, see too many. loses any sort of Caveat.
Merlin - Nice Bikes, but owned by above. Cool stuff, very fancy but loses small boutique
caveat due to above ownership
Moots - Boutique Caveat, cool small company sweet bikes
Seven - same as above (so it's an east coast vs. rocky mountain thing)

I just bought an '04 Moots Vamoots through Wrench Science and it was delivered on 10/20. I test rode a Merline Cyrene and looked at a Litespeed Classic and Solano. Looked into a Seven but went with the Vamoots in a stock 53.5 frame. Buying through Wrench Science was painless and I would buy through them again if the opportunity presented itself. I am very happy with the Moots. It is very well built and it has a smooth, comfortable, but stiff enough ride for me. That is the key point - for me. I like the Moots company and I like the Vamoots frame. I wanted a stock size because I feel the stock sizes are tested geometries and I did not feel comfortable going the custom route because I feel I do not know enough to make certain decisions in regards to the tubes and geometry and how it would affect the ride.

I would not hesitate to buy another Moots but this is from a short term ownership perspective. I do not think you can say that Moots is better than Merlin, or Seven is better than Moots, because the most important aspect is fit and personal feelings towards the ride characteristics. The Moots is exactly what I wanted. I researched and read about the different manufacturers, the philosophy of each company, the logic in why they build their frames the way they do, the practicality of their decisions, and overall, what I feel is the best value for my money. All the bikes you are considering are great bikes and if you get the Moots, or any other brand, I hope you enjoy your new bike as much as I enjoy mine. Cheers! :cool:

i ordered my vamoots and i'm extremely happy with my experience. i decided to get it from a bike shop instead of an online vender because i wasn't sure about sizing and i'm glad i did ( i'm all torso with buff stubby legs). i got a very thorough sizing and was treated like i was part of the family (best experience at a bike shop thus far). the whole sizing took about 2 hours, he measured my current bike dimensions, my dimensions, watched me ride to get an idea of my desired riding position, fit my current bike to me and then remeasured the dimensions, gave me a few riding and pedaling tips and the whole time explaining the importance of what he was doing. i'll withhold the name of the shop because i know some people will concider it SPAM but if you want the name of the dealer and live in the Los Angeles area shoot me an email. Thanks again for all the advice, I can't wait for it to get here :D

dude, every shop i know will treat you as a family member when you are spending that amount of money on a frame...