I raced today (report to come). I race cat 4/5.

There was a guy who had moved up on the left of the pack. I was sitting with my front wheel about even with his back wheel. He pointed to the rear wheel of the rider in front of me to indicate he wanted to move in. Silently, I called BS and moved up to establish my position on the wheel. My opinion is: this is a race not a Sunday group ride. I am not going to make it easier for someone on another team by giving way to a wheel.

Is my attitude out of line?

I raced today (report to come). I race cat 4/5.

There was a guy who had moved up on the left of the pack. I was sitting with my front wheel about even with his back wheel. He pointed to the rear wheel of the rider in front of me to indicate he wanted to move in. Silently, I called BS and moved up to establish my position on the wheel. My opinion is: this is a race not a Sunday group ride. I am not going to make it easier for someone on another team by giving way to a wheel.

Is my attitude out of line?
Within the war that is a bike race there are constant battles for position. Everyone wants to move up and stay in the draft. There's no reason to give any gifts to a rider that means nothing to you. OTOH, I might offer it to someone I knew well, a teammate, or some huge smooth rider who will be better to draft anyway.

If you have nothing to gain from it...make him earn it.

I raced today (report to come). I race cat 4/5.

There was a guy who had moved up on the left of the pack. I was sitting with my front wheel about even with his back wheel. He pointed to the rear wheel of the rider in front of me to indicate he wanted to move in. Silently, I called BS and moved up to establish my position on the wheel. My opinion is: this is a race not a Sunday group ride. I am not going to make it easier for someone on another team by giving way to a wheel.

Is my attitude out of line?

It depends where you are in a race.... if you're in a crit, make him earn it. If your'e on mile 10 of a 50 mile road race then sheesh...just let 'em in already. Choose your battles and this isn't one of them. IMO, of course.

Yes it may depend... But remember, you are out to have fun and you are racing 4/5's. If the 4/5's are cuttroat then begginers aren't going to want to race, and then you have no new people racing, then after awhile you have no racers or races.

It depends where you are in a race.... if you're in a crit, make him earn it. If your'e on mile 10 of a 50 mile road race then sheesh...just let 'em in already. Choose your battles and this isn't one of them. IMO, of course.

Your response didn't influence me. It actually moved me back to my original response. I don't know if I am trying to influence you or still trying to convince myself that I was not out of line.

We were at about 27 miles into a 44 mile circuit. The pack was still together. I was progressively moving up and didn't want to move back. We were also climbing and I didn't want to ease up on my momentum. We were headed into a descent that ended in technical turn. I have a very high level in my ability in descending turns. I don't have a lot of confidence in other riders.

I guess the bottom line is: In a race situation, I am highly resistance to taking instructions from competing riders when I can't see any obvious advantage for me. I am not really an *ss. I just play one for races.

Yes it may depend... But remember, you are out to have fun and you are racing 4/5's. If the 4/5's are cuttroat then begginers aren't going to want to race, and then you have no new people racing, then after awhile you have no racers or races.

OK. That response is more appealing to my fun nature. I do need to remember that.

Speaking of beginners. There was a kid riding on an old bike with Carhart work jeans and a fleece pullover. It was great. He hung in there to the end. Eventhough, he kept dropping his chain when he shifted to the small ring.

I ended up blowing up on the final lap and he went on to take 2nd or 3rd.

I am persuaded by the fun factor reasoning. I need to lighten up. It might make racing more fun for me.

Your response didn't influence me. It actually moved me back to my original response. I don't know if I am trying to influence you or still trying to convince myself that I was not out of line.

We were at about 27 miles into a 44 mile circuit. The pack was still together. I was progressively moving up and didn't want to move back. We were also climbing and I didn't want to ease up on my momentum. We were headed into a descent that ended in technical turn. I have a very high level in my ability in descending turns. I don't have a lot of confidence in other riders.

I guess the bottom line is: In a race situation, I am highly resistance to taking instructions from competing riders when I can't see any obvious advantage for me. I am not really an *ss. I just play one for races.

To put it in simplest terms, you're racing the 4/5s. This is only about fun. Do whatever the heck you want to do because it makes no difference either way.

OK. That response is more appealing to my fun nature. I do need to remember that.

Speaking of beginners. There was a kid riding on an old bike with Carhart work jeans and a fleece pullover. It was great. He hung in there to the end. Eventhough, he kept dropping his chain when he shifted to the small ring.

Now I know that you were talking about the Banana Belt. That guy raced last year also... or someone with nearly the same outfit.

I ended up blowing up on the final lap and he went on to take 2nd or 3rd.

I am persuaded by the fun factor reasoning. I need to lighten up. It might make racing more fun for me.

Dude, it was halfway in a long race. Giving up one spot now won't make a hill of beans in the end.

If it were the last few laps of a crit and someone did that to me, that's a different story!

Mike

Good chance to make an ally in the field. You never know who you might be working with in a break. If someone let me in, I would look to reward them likewise. Of course, not in the last mile before the sprint- but otherwise "come on in". Additionally, that gets me one extra turn before my pull. Everyone wins!

Caveat- Super Shaky Man gets to go to the back. But pointing out the spot prior to coming over signals experienced rider to me.

If you are in the last couple of miles, you are smart to hold your spot. Also, if an attack or shuffle is going on then I would forceably hold the spot if it is a wheel you were comfortable following that was in a good spot.

If it was early in a race why take the risk of wrecking, spots are easy to come by. Especially in Cat 4/5. I race Cat 4/5 and masters. It's a lot tougher finding a hole in the masters crowd than in the 4/5 races. In Cat 4/5 you can always find someone that will back off when you make a hole for yourself. In masters I have been forced into the gravel more than once when trying to make a hole for myself.

The rider signaling intent is fine. Good way to tell the bike in back what you are going to do at noncritical points in the race. Why risk a wreck when you don't need to. Sliding along the pavement hurts.

I raced today (report to come). I race cat 4/5.

There was a guy who had moved up on the left of the pack. I was sitting with my front wheel about even with his back wheel. He pointed to the rear wheel of the rider in front of me to indicate he wanted to move in. Silently, I called BS and moved up to establish my position on the wheel. My opinion is: this is a race not a Sunday group ride. I am not going to make it easier for someone on another team by giving way to a wheel.

Is my attitude out of line?


I don't think your attitude is out of line, but you may want to rethink your positioning to keep this from happening again. From your description, you say you had to move up to establish your position on the wheel in front of you. Guys that are moving up along the sides are always going to look for the easiest wheel to steal away when they want back in. If you leave them a gap to the wheel in front of you, they're going to take it from you.

If you hold tight to that wheel and don't budge, they'll look for an easier target. If he was more aggressive and wanted that wheel, he could have just forced his way over without motioning to you that he wanted in. If you leave enough of a gap that when he comes over, your bars are behind his hips, you've got no choices but to back off or to crash over his rear wheel. If you stay up tight on the wheel in front of you, when someone comes over on you, you can push back with your elbows and shoulders and lean into them.

IMHO, keeping a gap to a minimum is safer for the bunch since you aren't giving the false impression that you are going to let someone in, then slamming the door shut on them.

I don't think your attitude is out of line, but you may want to rethink your positioning to keep this from happening again. From your description, you say you had to move up to establish your position on the wheel in front of you. Guys that are moving up along the sides are always going to look for the easiest wheel to steal away when they want back in. If you leave them a gap to the wheel in front of you, they're going to take it from you.

If you hold tight to that wheel and don't budge, they'll look for an easier target. If he was more aggressive and wanted that wheel, he could have just forced his way over without motioning to you that he wanted in. If you leave enough of a gap that when he comes over, your bars are behind his hips, you've got no choices but to back off or to crash over his rear wheel. If you stay up tight on the wheel in front of you, when someone comes over on you, you can push back with your elbows and shoulders and lean into them.

IMHO, keeping a gap to a minimum is safer for the bunch since you aren't giving the false impression that you are going to let someone in, then slamming the door shut on them.

Very good points! When all is said and done, if someone wants in and they have any skill, they're getting in whether you like it or not short of your elbow or shoulder.

Very good points! When all is said and done, if someone wants in and they have any skill, they're getting in whether you like it or not short of your elbow or shoulder.

Hell, some of them are going to get in regardless of elbow or shoulder!

I know I've moved some people off wheels before. All it really takes is more confidence than the guy you are moving.

MOST* people I've met will give way if you really push the issue. *not everyone will move. You'll just have to figure out who will and won't by trying to move them.

Mike

I think that the people above have given lots of good advice that makes sense to neophyte moi, including that, if your front is even with his rear, he's at an advantage, and if he wanted to move over and block you out, you probably were going to have to let it happen or you were going down. So, in that sense, pointing did you a favor.
I've also done what you've done, too, though, because I'm learning, just like you, and I wanted to practice some assertiveness myself in the pack. I have let in guys who were going into the gutter if I didn't let them in, but I'm not inclined to give up a wheel to a total stranger just because a guy points. If you did that too much, that's all you'd do. I'm not smart enough to sort out the difference between when it would help me and when it wouldn't. The trick, I guess, is to get yourself a wheel and stick tight enough to where you're not even vulnerable to the request.
I don't think it's a d*ck move, if that's what you're asking. Under similar circumstances, if the roles were reversed, I like to think that I would be more philosophical about not getting let in than to go out of my way to get back at someone who didn't let me in when I pointed.

I think that the people above have given lots of good advice that makes sense to neophyte moi, including that, if your front is even with his rear, he's at an advantage, and if he wanted to move over and block you out, you probably were going to have to let it happen or you were going down. So, in that sense, pointing did you a favor.
I've also done what you've done, too, though, because I'm learning, just like you, and I wanted to practice some assertiveness myself in the pack. I have let in guys who were going into the gutter if I didn't let them in, but I'm not inclined to give up a wheel to a total stranger just because a guy points. If you did that too much, that's all you'd do. I'm not smart enough to sort out the difference between when it would help me and when it wouldn't. The trick, I guess, is to get yourself a wheel and stick tight enough to where you're not even vulnerable to the request.
I don't think it's a d*ck move, if that's what you're asking. Under similar circumstances, if the roles were reversed, I like to think that I would be more philosophical about not getting let in than to go out of my way to get back at someone who didn't let me in when I pointed.

Not that anyone needs to substitute my judgement for your own, but I'd say the general rule of thumb should be:

If letting the rider in gives him/her no real advantage and at the same time gives you no real disadvantage, then let him in. If you can make a case for either then attempt to keep him out. Someone with more experience is obviously going to have a better idea of when to let the rider in. Cat 4s/5s are notorious for just letting the rider cut in.... not so easy in other Cats.

If there was a big enough gap between your wheel and the person's in front of you, then you should have let him in or you should have never let the gap form.

For those that say Cat 4/5 is just for fun and doesn't matter, I disagree. It is getting experience, learning the rules of racing and paying your dues. It is no less of a race for the beginner than a Cat 1 race is for a more experienced racer.

When it comes down to the reason most people race, it is just for fun. Most people that are racing Cat 1 or 2 aren't making money from it, an occasional race win or placing but they still would have a hard time making back all the race fees they have paid to get to where they are. Even if they have a small sponsorship they aren't going to break even for all the money they have put out over the years.

If there was a big enough gap between your wheel and the person's in front of you, then you should have let him in or you should have never let the gap form.

For those that say Cat 4/5 is just for fun and doesn't matter, I disagree. It is getting experience, learning the rules of racing and paying your dues. It is no less of a race for the beginner than a Cat 1 race is for a more experienced racer.

When it comes down to the reason most people race, it is just for fun. Most people that are racing Cat 1 or 2 aren't making money from it, an occasional race win or placing but they still would have a hard time making back all the race fees they have paid to get to where they are. Even if they have a small sponsorship they aren't going to break even for all the money they have put out over the years.

A 4/5 can get away with being a casual rider. There is nothing casual about a Cat2, about his/her training, about the races, anything. They say that when most racers are able to make it to 2, your relationship (if you had one) disintegrates. Of course this is the rule and there are plenty of exceptions, but if you have a job AND are racing the Pro/1/2s, there's a fair chance you're neglecting lots in your life. And just what is the percentage of Cat 4/5s who will actually ever have the opportunity to race in the Pro/1/2s someday? Very small.

And as far as what matters.... well, realistically, the only person who really, truly cares whether you got a 4th place or a 12th place at your local crit is you. Sure, friends and family and significant others will cheer you on, but in the end you're only doing this for yourself. In conclusion, yes, it's ALL just for fun unless a dissappointing result in a race means your team manager or your sponsors are upset with you.

[QUOTE=The Human G-Nome]A 4/5 can get away with being a casual rider. There is nothing casual about a Cat2, about his/her training, about the races, anything. They say that when most racers are able to make it to 2, your relationship (if you had one) disintegrates. Of course this is the rule and there are plenty of exceptions, but if you have a job AND are racing the Pro/1/2s, there's a fair chance you're neglecting lots in your life. And just what is the percentage of Cat 4/5s who will actually ever have the opportunity to race in the Pro/1/2s someday? Very small.


My point is, that everyone started at a Cat 5 unless they managed to sneak into a 4 race. Cat 4 and 5 are competitive because that is where people are starting and working their way up by way of the rules.

You could have someone that is a very experienced rider and trains with racers all the time but does not race. He is going to have an advantage going into a Cat 5 race. Then you have your casual rider go do a Cat 5 race with the experienced guy, it is going to be a hard race to the casual guy. Proportionally speaking, the casual rider is going to work his butt off to stay in the pack. A Cat 2 is going to have to work his butt off to stay with the Pro/1s.

Is racing Pro/1/2 harder? Yes. But does it mean that someone racing 4/5 isn't working hard, no.

[QUOTE=The Human G-Nome]A 4/5 can get away with being a casual rider. There is nothing casual about a Cat2, about his/her training, about the races, anything. They say that when most racers are able to make it to 2, your relationship (if you had one) disintegrates. Of course this is the rule and there are plenty of exceptions, but if you have a job AND are racing the Pro/1/2s, there's a fair chance you're neglecting lots in your life. And just what is the percentage of Cat 4/5s who will actually ever have the opportunity to race in the Pro/1/2s someday? Very small.


My point is, that everyone started at a Cat 5 unless they managed to sneak into a 4 race. Cat 4 and 5 are competitive because that is where people are starting and working their way up by way of the rules.

You could have someone that is a very experienced rider and trains with racers all the time but does not race. He is going to have an advantage going into a Cat 5 race. Then you have your casual rider go do a Cat 5 race with the experienced guy, it is going to be a hard race to the casual guy. Proportionally speaking, the casual rider is going to work his butt off to stay in the pack. A Cat 2 is going to have to work his butt off to stay with the Pro/1s.

Is racing Pro/1/2 harder? Yes. But does it mean that someone racing 4/5 isn't working hard, no.

We're in complete agreement. Of course, every racer in every Cat is always working hard. Otherwise, you're sandbagging and you're in the wrong race. I'm only saying that level of commitment between most 2s and 4s is dramatically different. Sure, there are plenty of 4s out there puting in insane miles, paying crazy type money for coaching, racing twice every weekend, etc, etc., but there are much more of those characters in upper Cats. And finally, 4s and 5 shouldn't be taking themselves so seroiusly unless they have a good inkling that they might have the talent to someday quit their 9 to 5er and make a living as a European pro. For everyone else, this should be FUN. Otherwise, you shouldn't be racing. IMO, of course.

in regards to protecting ones space...

letting someone in is almost always a disadvantage. it may not seem like that big of a deal, one wheel, whatever... but that's one more person in front of you that can crash, one more gap that can open, and it means that you're probably going to have to accelerate harder when you exit the corner. chances are if someone is moving up, they're going to have more guys on their wheel as well... if the guy is skilled enough to rob me of the wheel infront of me, i have no problem letting him in. now, if he's on the rivet and leaves a gap in front of me i consider that a cardinal sin...

something that happened this weekend, doing the B race in our local early-season series... normally i prefer the outside line in the B race on this course; guys always try to steal the inside line and pass mid-corner, which screws everyone else. the worst part is, they don't know better. so anyway we're coming up to a wide open corner, and i'm setting up for my turn on the inside line. when i'm just about to start my turn, someone tries to comes up on my inside. there was NO room infront of me, which means he had no business passing at this point.

so i sharpened up my turn, put my elbow out, and protect my space... he touched his brakes and couldn't pass, and of course he had to accelerate MUCH harder coming out of the turn as a result. at the exit of the turn i tell him "don't f*&king nose dive me again" -- he got pissed and yelled back, but i maintained my position. turns out it was someone i tend to be friendly with, but i know i did the right thing. letting him in could have caused a wreck, could have brought more guys past me, and most importantly, demonstrated to him (and the pack) that it's OK to pass like that. it's not. you may be able to get away with it sometimes in a cat 4 or cat 5 race but as you move up guys are much better at holding their space (i'm just learning this now). passing has to be done before everyone else is setting up for their turn. if your move was "dick" then mine was "supreme dick" -- but that doesn't make it wrong!!.

in regards to protecting ones space...

letting someone in is almost always a disadvantage. it may not seem like that big of a deal, one wheel, whatever... but that's one more person in front of you that can crash, one more gap that can open, and it means that you're probably going to have to accelerate harder when you exit the corner. chances are if someone is moving up, they're going to have more guys on their wheel as well... if the guy is skilled enough to rob me of the wheel infront of me, i have no problem letting him in. now, if he's on the rivet and leaves a gap in front of me i consider that a cardinal sin...

something that happened this weekend, doing the B race in our local early-season series... normally i prefer the outside line in the B race on this course; guys always try to steal the inside line and pass mid-corner, which screws everyone else. the worst part is, they don't know better. so anyway we're coming up to a wide open corner, and i'm setting up for my turn on the inside line. when i'm just about to start my turn, someone tries to comes up on my inside. there was NO room infront of me, which means he had no business passing at this point.

so i sharpened up my turn, put my elbow out, and protect my space... he touched his brakes and couldn't pass, and of course he had to accelerate MUCH harder coming out of the turn as a result. at the exit of the turn i tell him "don't f*&king nose dive me again" -- he got pissed and yelled back, but i maintained my position. turns out it was someone i tend to be friendly with, but i know i did the right thing. letting him in could have caused a wreck, could have brought more guys past me, and most importantly, demonstrated to him (and the pack) that it's OK to pass like that. it's not. you may be able to get away with it sometimes in a cat 4 or cat 5 race but as you move up guys are much better at holding their space (i'm just learning this now). passing has to be done before everyone else is setting up for their turn. if your move was "dick" then mine was "supreme dick" -- but that doesn't make it wrong!!.

You're talking crit. There are plenty of times in a 60 mile road race where letting someone in means ZERO to your race chances. It isn't all or nothing.

well, 85% of our races are crits, but i still don't see much of a difference. you can't read a race, figure out who's in what moves, or respond to any attacks unless you're near the sharp end. i'd be really pissed if i let a guy in, "the move" goes up the road, but i couldn't respond because there was someone in my way... even if it's "mile 10 of a 60 mile road race". there's a good number of races i've been in, where the initial split happened almost from the gun...


and of course there are times in a road race where you are glad to have someone come in line in front of you... that goes without saying. my whole point is, you can't argue that it doesn't have an effect on your chances of winning. no one can ask me why i didn't let them in, since "there was nothing going on at that point in the race" -- if nothing was going on, why would you mind having to find a different wheel to sit on?


i know it's difficult to apply what happens in the pro-ranks to a category 3 field (let alone a 4/5 field!), but look at yesterday's paris-nice stage. what was thought of as a stage which would easily end in a field sprint caught alot of guys, including major GC contenders, off guard... CSC went to the front with postal when they both suspected strong cross-winds... a big group formed into an echelon and the leaders put 5 minutes into the rest of the pack. erik dekker called himself the stupidest rider in the field, because he wasn't riding close enough to the front to make the split!

[i editted this post a few times. couldn't figure out what i was trying to say... sorry, long day.]

If you hold tight to that wheel and don't budge, they'll look for an easier target. If he was more aggressive and wanted that wheel, he could have just forced his way over without motioning to you that he wanted in. If you leave enough of a gap that when he comes over, your bars are behind his hips, you've got no choices but to back off or to crash over his rear wheel. If you stay up tight on the wheel in front of you, when someone comes over on you, you can push back with your elbows and shoulders and lean into them.

IMHO, keeping a gap to a minimum is safer for the bunch since you aren't giving the false impression that you are going to let someone in, then slamming the door shut on them.

Yeah, I would agree with that quote 100%. To the original poster, bottom line is that the guy could have taken the spot if he wanted it, and if you tried to move up and close the door on him, you'd have gotten your front wheel swept out.

But you weren't a dick to close the door, I mean it's a race after all and nobody has to do anybody any favors. But think about when and why when you shut the door on people. Last 3 laps of a crit no brainer, of course you aren't letting anybody in and should fight tooth and nail for every wheel. But 3/4's of a way through a road race, ussually I'd go ahead and let him in. You get a quick break when you soft pedal to let him in, and then there's one more guy to take a pull in front of you. And also in a 4/5 pack there is just always going to be someone who's going to let that guy in or back off if he gets aggressive so it don't really matter if YOU won't let him in!

That's all right on the money and well stated. Riding close to the front is a big deal & therefore slots in the first 10-15 riders are very competitive. You have to be attentive in maintaining your position or you'll find yourself shuffled to the back pronto. You shouldn't feel bad about not giving up the wheel you are following. Of course there are race situations when your position isn't as important, but you'll be bummed if the race goes up the road and you aren't in position to do anything about it so be careful when you decide to slip back in the line.

My point is, that everyone started at a Cat 5 unless they managed to sneak into a 4 race. Cat 4 and 5 are competitive because that is where people are starting and working their way up by way of the rules.

That's not true. I got my license before there was such a thing as Cat 5!

Mike