You know, the more of this stuff that goes on, the more I'm convinced that when it comes to doping, there are two types of pro cyclists--those who get caught and those who don't. The peleton always has been doped, is doped and always will be doped; only the tests and substances change.

So my question is this: should we just drop the charade and let cyclists take PEDs? I mean, times change, technologies change; if pros can safely take substances that allow them to compete and extend their careers, is that so bad?

As it is, it's fairly arbitrary, you can have a TON of caffiene in your bloodstream, but other stimulants are verboten. You can have a hemocrit level of 49%, but not 51%. And then in the off-season you can't take E, but you can drink yourself into a stupor every night. And then what about Gatorade and electrolytes; don't they technically boost performance? It's more gray than we'd like to admit.

Why not just lay it on the table--let 'em take what they want. They ARE professionals, this is what they do for a living, shouldn't they have every tool at their disposal? Today's engineers use computers to design and model products; does this mean they're "cheating" the past generations of engineers who had to use slide rules and clay mock-ups?

I don't know, maybe it's just time for a paradigm shift in sports. Drugs are here, and I don't see that changing. Maybe it's time to work with them instead of against them.

[QUOTE=Gator]You know, the more of this stuff that goes on, the more I'm convinced that when it comes to doping, there are two types of pro cyclists--those who get caught and those who don't. The peleton always has been doped, is doped and always will be doped; only the tests and substances change.

So my question is this: should we just drop the charade and let cyclists take PEDs? QUOTE]

I don't love the idea, but I think the current system is irrefutably broken. And as you say, the line between OK and not-OK is so blurry and at times absurd that I have no faith in much of anything cyclists or the powers-that-be do, say or propose anymore.

Let 'em swallow whatever, or inject horse blood cells for all I care. Let 'em keel over and die on the bike. They're pros, and presumably they know the risks. Or they should anyway.

This is ridiculous.

I'd agree. And the ironic thing is, I think it might actually level the playing field. Take someone like Lance, who's probably a $1B industry at this point (In the first quarter after the TdF, Nike beat their stock estimate by 10 CENTS, if that tells you anything). If he's doping (which seems likely) you know he's getting the super-new, super-expensive, super-stealth stuff that some new pro for a smaller squad could never DREAM of getting his hands on--is THAT fair?

I just think the sand castle of a drug-free peleton is facing high tide--time to face reality.

I'm tending more and more to agree with you Ed. While we can all wallow in a pity-thon about the lost integrity of the sport and such, the fact is people have cheated in sport and games since the beginning of time. The records we cherish were tarnished to the purists of the time. The only real argument for me becomes will it cause an 'arms race' that leaves a trail of death and destruction along the way. Unfortunately the answer to that is probably yes, especially in light of how much responsibility we seem to want to take in regard to our actions. The taboo, while not effective in eliminating the dope war, does hold it back. I guess the answer lies there, is it worth it?

As it is, it's fairly arbitrary, you can have a TON of caffiene in your bloodstream, but other stimulants are verboten.

I think there is a limit on caffeine and starting next year it will be banned out right, if I'm not mistaken. It is kind of silly that a known performance enhancing drug is permitted.

I think it's "four cups worth," whatever the hell that means. Still, you ever drink four cups of Peet's French roast in a sitting? Move over, meth!

Once an athlete is tarnished by drugs the sponsorship dollars evaporate. Unlike other pro sports, bicycle racing relies almost entirely on sponsorship dollars. There is no gate. They cannot easily charge admission. It is not popular enough to get big wades of money thrown their way from network TV.

So there is a real economic reason for keeping the sport clean. If you choose to put aside the ethical and fairness issues.

A dirty rider or a dirty team will not keep the big buck sponsors. They are looking for the clean cut American (or European) boy image. An IV drug user does not fit that image they are after. Too many dark thoughts associated with dopping. Dirty alleys, dirty needles, hypotitis, etc. vs the squeeky clean Boy Scout / Opie image Tyler had just a week ago.

I think it's "four cups worth," whatever the hell that means. Still, you ever drink four cups of Peet's French roast in a sitting? Move over, meth!

I think it depends what kind of spin you put on it. Sure, if you say, "We're pumpin' our team full of smack and crank and lettin' run wild in the streets, buddy!" that's not too positive. However, if you soft peddle it by saying something like "Advances in sports medicine have allowed us to safeguard the health and careers of your heroes," THAT doesn't sound so bad, does it?

Sometimes a well-handled disclosure can put the brakes what may become an all-out scandal. And this is a house of cards, my friend. Sooner or later, someone is going to find a smoking gun implicating a LOT of people and blow the roof off of the sport--it's going to make '98 look like a skip in the park. I say nip it in the bud.

Just because doping has been around doesn't make it right..people have been killing one another since the beginning of time that doesn't make it okay (excuse the outsized example but I think you see my point). Besides the application would be a nightmare. Do you just let first division pros dope or just pros ...how about junior racers? I'm sure they want in on this athletic boon. Sure it's hard dealing with cheaters and (doping IS cheating)but we just have to try harder. There are enough innovations in the sport with equipment and legitimate training techniques. We shouldn't have to watch a bunch of drugged up robots duke it out ... that's called PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING
peace

I think it's "four cups worth," whatever the hell that means. Still, you ever drink four cups of Peet's French roast in a sitting? Move over, meth!

Of course, I'd LOVE to see the post-race interview of the winner...

"So, Lance, tell us about the race."

"Ohmanohmanitwasgreatifeltgreatlookedgreatamgreatit ookoffafterjanwhenhetriedtoattackonthegalibierwasi tthegalibiernoithinkitwasthecolduglandonnowaitthat waslastweekitwasactuallythetourmaletnosorryimeantt heclimbuptoluzardidensoanywaysjanattackeonthelower slopesoftheclimbuptoluzardidenwhenistoppedforacomf ortbreakohmanihadwaytomuchpeetscoffeethismorningsh eryltoldmenottodrinksomuchbecauseshethinksthatillg etanulcerandisaidiknowbutitslegalsoineedallthehelp icangetbecausethisisthestagethatwillhelpproperlmet otourdefrancewinnumbereleveninarowsoshutupandgorec ordanotheralbumnowwherewasiohyesistoppedforacomfor tbreakmanletmetellyouipissedlikearacehorseandwheni wasdonejanwasaboutfivemilesuptheroadbecausehewason somereallypowerfulcrackbutisaidtomyselflancegetyou rbuttingearandrunthatgermanbastarddownsoitookoffaf terhimandicaughthimwhenipulledaheadofhimigavehimal ooklikethelooknotlookpedalsdoyouknowwhatimeanandth eniblewhimAWAYimnumberoneimnumberoneiwinthetour!!! !!!!"

"Thanks Lance, Phil and Paul, back to you..."

To me, this whole Tyler thing is not an example of how the system is failing, since doping still exists in the peleton. It's and example of what the sport is doing to combat doping. It's showing that nobody is exempt from testing, not even one of its brightest stars. Every week I read about another rider or riders being publicly sanctioned and it's not just in major races or leading countries. It's against roadies, track riders, mountain bikers, in North America, South America, Europe, Australia... No other sport is doing more than ours. If you can think of on, please correct me.
If the sport opens up to doping, who regulates it? Who administers the goods? What substances would be legal? All? Just HGH? EPO? Uppers? Who monitors the health of the riders, UCI doctors or team doctors? Should just the UCI riders get to dope or would other national pro circuits "wise up" and allow it as well? Will that be my son's reward for his years of hard work? Sign with a pro team and get a needle stuck in his arm? Who should be held accountable when riders start dying of cardiac arrest on hot climbs because they were allowed to turn their blood to syrup with 400ml of EPO? The team doctor, because he tested the rider in camp at these levels? The UCI? Hey, it's legal isn't it?
Sorry about the soap box but these are the questions you have to ask yourself when you look at the consequences of what you're considering. Some stories are sad, others pathetic: Museeuw is under investigation (still) even in retirement, Millar gives up his strips, Vanderbrouke has a dog with bad kindeys and must keep EPO in if fridge, Beloki has terrible allergies and needs steroids.... It just seems that this argument of legalizing doping gets dusted off evertime our feelings get hurt because another one of our heros falls from grace.

In addition to the altruistic reasons (fair play, athletes as role models, etc.) for keeping drugs out of sports...I'm totally on board with the idealistic reasons by the way, there are at least two other fallacies to the argument that drugs should be legalized.

First of all, what drugs are you going to legalize? Maybe EPO and many other drugs can be used safely while under a doctor's care. However, there are always going to be guys out there who are willing to push the limits as to what drugs and dosages are safe. These are the same guys who brought drugs into the sport to begin with.

Second, surely we're only talking about legalize this crap for the pro ranks only, right? Or maybe we're talking about having an "unlimited" class of pros and a "natural" class of pros too? Guess what? Body building tried this and found out that the "natural" guys were taking stuff too. On the other hand, if it's legal for pros but not amateurs, then you're just pushing the level of deception down to lower levels of the sport. Immediately, you'll have an epidemic cat. 1 and 2 guys taking whatever they can get their hands on because they'll have to if they ever hope to realize their aspirations. Soon after, you'll even have well heeled cat. 4s on EPO (if you can afford a $5K Colnago, you can probably afford EPO).

I think the only solution is to just be totally hard-nosed. First, don't publicly announce what you can test for; that only says, "OK guys, time to move on to the flavor of next month." Second, get SERIOUS with punishments. I'm talking lifetime bans on the first offense. Like the TV show said, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." A big part of the problem now is that a suspension can be looked at as just a cost/risk of doing business for a professional athlete.

I also think the fans are going to have to stand-up and say ENOUGH! It seems to me that the governing bodies and leagues in many sports are in collusion. MLB, the NFL, track and field, and cycling all know they have a problem, but they're not willing to risk losing fan support when EVERYBODY tests positive so they create testing programs that appear to do something but have no real effect.

Maybe this is a little naive, but I think it's better than just rolling over. Anyway, my $.02 worth.

LOL! Dude, that's AWESOME. Holy crap, it actually makes sense.

Legalize drugs. Not a chance. Where's the real human challenge. There isn't any if drugs are used. When everyone uses drugs, who really is the winner? Would the same guy who won with drugs win without them. We will never know. How interesting it would be if all the same riders went out without using drugs. Would the outcome be different. I think it would, because I'm sure each person reacts differently to that crap. As far as I'm concerned, there is no real human challenge when that stuff is used. My opinion.

I'm certainly not crazy about the idea myself; ideally no one should do drugs and everyone should play fair and try to be an example to up and coming juniors. BUT, there's a huge gap between what should be and what is. So let's see...

To me, this whole Tyler thing is not an example of how the system is failing, since doping still exists in the peleton. It's and example of what the sport is doing to combat doping. It's showing that nobody is exempt from testing, not even one of its brightest stars. Every week I read about another rider or riders being publicly sanctioned and it's not just in major races or leading countries. It's against roadies, track riders, mountain bikers, in North America, South America, Europe, Australia... No other sport is doing more than ours. If you can think of on, please correct me..


I can't. And it's still not working, and even the top riders don't care--what does that tell you?

If the sport opens up to doping, who regulates it? Who administers the goods? What substances would be legal? All? Just HGH? EPO? Uppers? Who monitors the health of the riders, UCI doctors or team doctors? Should just the UCI riders get to dope or would other national pro circuits "wise up" and allow it as well?

No one. I think "don't ask, don't tell" is the only policy that's ever going to REALLY work. The genie's out of the bottle.

Will that be my son's reward for his years of hard work? Sign with a pro team and get a needle stuck in his arm? Who should be held accountable when riders start dying of cardiac arrest on hot climbs because they were allowed to turn their blood to syrup with 400ml of EPO?

Well, the riders themselves. Just because you CAN take them doesn't mean you have to. I mean, they're supposedly illegal NOW and everyone takes them anyway; I'm not sure legalizing them is going to mean all of a sudden everyone's going to quadruple their dosage. But yes, some riders will take too much and die--just like they do now. But the hypocracy will be gone, and maybe some realistic discussion and progress can be made--maybe people can actually TALK about what's good, what's going to kill you and what dosages are best.

I really wish it didn't have to be this way. But this is another "War on Drugs" destined to fail miserably. If you want people to stop taking drugs, take the money out of it. Once someone is a "pro" and racing toward a huge paycheck and celebrity, integrity may not always be enough incentive to "just say no."

And finally, fans don't WANT clean sports. They may THINK they do, but when no records are ever again broken, the level of play decreases, and the stars seem a little less stellar, people will grumble. You ever listen to sports radio? People go nuts when a guy misses one pass; what's going to happen when he starts missing most of them? Baseball, football, cycling--it's all the same.

Maybe I'm giving up, but to me it's looking more and more like trying to sweep back the rising tide with a broom--hopeless.

...and football. Oh, and baseball. Oh wait, and bodybuilding. Oh, and then there's track...

US sports just don't really test and euro sports use test that aren't even proven yet! They have one paper published on this thing and it uses only 25 people! Not to mention that it depends on antibodies that they aren't even sure of what the antigen is, and virus/disease can change the antigens on blood cells! AND the real kicker is that no has ever studied the effect of extreme muscle damage and antigens. this is not my area, but I am a biochemist and that paper is cr@p!

Does anyone remember that great old skit on Saturday Night Live years ago about the "All Drug Olympics?" This thread reminds me of it all over again...funny stuff!

Good points, I often think about that stuff. They are pros, let them do what they want right?

Only thing that makes me think no, is that what about like guys in college on a cycling team? Do they have to look forward to possibly turning pro, or look forward to taking drugs to get better?

I dunno if I want my sport to turn into "oh they are all a bunch of drug-taking idiots".

You're making me think too early in the morning......

10k

But here goes.

Its funny how everyone's tune on doping has changed since we found out about Tyler. Until now, everyone here (with the exception of CragHopper and a few others) has sworn on the cleanliness of American teams. Now with Tyler's questionable 3-0-1 testing record, we're talking about legalizing doping. I just find it a bit humourous.

Anyway, my take on the doping issue is the same as some others. I think the penalties are too light. Multi-year suspensions are one thing, Lifelong ones are a bit more to think about. How about some pretty whopping fines - hundreds of thousands-ish? Or what about criminal charges? Illicit (sp?) unprescribed drugs - that sounds somewhat criminal to me. If you or I were caught with some of these substances, we'd get arrested.

If we want to erradicate it I think we all need to be prepared to see our heroes fall. Just as much as the next guy I want to beleive that Lance is clean. Its getting harder and harder as people all around him - close people, fall. Tyler, David Millar, Pavel Padrnos. I just dont think anyone wants to see the sport come apart at the seams, and I'm afraid that's what will happen.

My somewhat cynical view.

If PEDs are legalized, many cyclists and other athletes--not just pros, but those just starting out who clearly have some talent or even those who don't--are going to risk all and take them, no doubt about it. Furthermore, do we want the TdF to boil down to which team has found the best new secret PED?

On the flip-side, keep them illegal and enforce very severe penalties and they might think twice about taking them.

I don't deny there are some issues not easy to deal with, e.g., coffee use or one team's secret discovery of a legal but more efficient diet, but at least if everyone is required to play by the same rules, things are fair.