I'm trying to improve my power output on all sides of the cadence loope...(Top, down, bottom, up) .... I am aware of the training techiniques for doing but I would like to have an "electrical power meter" attached to the bike to measure the output as I crank a full circle...

Is there a device for this...

I have done a google search on "power meter" but that returned items for measuring stats on a ride... I'm not interested in that....

I guess I would like to see something like a volt or amp meter, that would be sensetive to the power variations on a pedal stroke....

Computrainer has one that hooks up to their trainer and your bike. It's called spinscan.


I'm trying to improve my power output on all sides of the cadence loope...(Top, down, bottom, up) .... I am aware of the training techiniques for doing but I would like to have an "electrical power meter" attached to the bike to measure the output as I crank a full circle...

Is there a device for this...

I have done a google search on "power meter" but that returned items for measuring stats on a ride... I'm not interested in that....

I guess I would like to see something like a volt or amp meter, that would be sensetive to the power variations on a pedal stroke....

i'm a little curious about this as well, isn't the computrainer spinscan about $1000 ?

i'm a little curious about this as well, isn't the computrainer spinscan about $1000 ?

ME spin you long time!

For real Boku Bucks you can use SRM's version of spinscan. The plus is that you can use it on the road.

A Finnish company called Polar at http://www.polar.fi/polar/channels/eng/
makes a power output sensor that retails for ca. 450-500 USD. It measures power in watts and also gives information on left7right power and power "smoothness" throughout the stroke. It's actually quite good.

A Finnish company called Polar at http://www.polar.fi/polar/channels/eng/
makes a power output sensor that retails for ca. 450-500 USD. It measures power in watts and also gives information on left7right power and power "smoothness" throughout the stroke. It's actually quite good.


I did extensive testing on that unit a couple of years ago. Not to rain on your parade but it is total crap. It takes a power measurement "seeing" the chain tension as the chain passes over the sensor. Well, that's great in theory but what happens when you are pedalling in a 39x15 and the chain is really close to the sensor and when you're in a 53x18 and the chain is far away? You guessed it. The readings are way way off for the same power measurement in different gears. I used one of these in conjunction with the SRM unit to compare the accuracy. The readings would be a little off sometimes and way off on others. The smoothness detection is far from perfect as well.

No offense meant, I'm just giving my experience. And if you don't have anything to campre it with, you would think that it really works. Also, I tried three diferent units to make sure it wasn't one bad unit.

Can't argue with that Sherpa! Guess You made a more rigid testing of the product than I did. How does Spinscan work?

Can't argue with that Sherpa! Guess You made a more rigid testing of the product than I did. How does Spinscan work?


I haven't used Spinscan in 4 years or so. IIRC, you put a sensor on the chainstay and a magnet on the crank. The computer can then detect where the pedal orientation is and it extrapolates the pedal stroke by that and the power pulses. It then makes a graph out of it with different figures and colours. It is interesting but complicated. Of course, you can only use this on the trainer so it does have its drawbacks.

Can't argue with that Sherpa! Guess You made a more rigid testing of the product than I did. How does Spinscan work?



Spinscan puts the average of your lowest power application values over the average of
your highest values and gives you the % value. Of course if you lower your max power
application value at 3 to that of your lower value in the 12 and 6 o'clock area and do
not unweight the rising leg, you should make the highest nember. But at what speed
would that pedal power take you in a TT. Using equipment to perfect your pedal stroke
is a waste of cash because with the perfect stroke where you can apply equal muscle
force throughout the entire 360 degrees of the chainwheel, when you take the correct
effective unweighting technique into account you will always have greater overall
power application in the 3 o 'clock area of the pedal stroke.

Well, just to make this clear, you cannot use Spinscan et al to improve your pedal stroke. You can only check your pedal stroke with those things. You have to improve your pedal stroke through specific drills. These units only check them. IF you rode 6 hours a day with spinscan and looked at it and looked at it, you would still have the same stroke. It's just a gauge.

Spinscan puts the average of your lowest power application values over the average of
your highest values and gives you the % value. Of course if you lower your max power
application value at 3 to that of your lower value in the 12 and 6 o'clock area and do
not unweight the rising leg, you should make the highest nember. But at what speed
would that pedal power take you in a TT. Using equipment to perfect your pedal stroke
is a waste of cash because with the perfect stroke where you can apply equal muscle
force throughout the entire 360 degrees of the chainwheel, when you take the correct
effective unweighting technique into account you will always have greater overall
power application in the 3 o 'clock area of the pedal stroke.

Well, just to make this clear, you cannot use Spinscan et al to improve your pedal stroke. You can only check your pedal stroke with those things. You have to improve your pedal stroke through specific drills. These units only check them. IF you rode 6 hours a day with spinscan and looked at it and looked at it, you would still have the same stroke. It's just a gauge.

Which of course begs the question of what does it mean to "improve" your pedal stroke? And if there is anyway to achieve this improvement.

Which of course begs the question of what does it mean to "improve" your pedal stroke? And if there is anyway to achieve this improvement.


Absolutely you can. Being able to spread your power throughout the entire stroke allows you to use your muscles more efficiently allowing you to go faster for longer.

You can improve your pedal stroke through several specific drills. Over a period of months there is a noticeable improvement in smoothness, cadence (leg speed), and seated acceleration.

I'm trying to improve my power output on all sides of the cadence loope...(Top, down, bottom, up) .... I am aware of the training techiniques for doing but I would like to have an "electrical power meter" attached to the bike to measure the output as I crank a full circle...

Is there a device for this...

I have done a google search on "power meter" but that returned items for measuring stats on a ride... I'm not interested in that....

I guess I would like to see something like a volt or amp meter, that would be sensetive to the power variations on a pedal stroke....

Powercranks (www.powercranks.com) are expensive, but in my personal experience, they certainly help to smooth out my pedal stroke. however, they are a long-term commitment (think at least a year), and they are bloody expensive (got mine used). and, the jury is out on whether they'll improve race performance. I recall research showing that they don't improve power output, but they do improve efficiency.

Which of course begs the question of what does it mean to "improve" your pedal stroke? And if there is anyway to achieve this improvement.


It depends on how you intend to use it, track sprinting---time trials---road racing.
To start, you need to perfect the basic circular technique which can be got from
single leg pedaling in a low gear. Powercranks are a more expensive way of
learning it. The PC's force you to pull up on the rising pedal in almost the same
way as single leg pedaling does but once you have got accustomed to this, all
that is actually required is the instant unweighting of that rising pedal, it is more
effective than trying to pull up.

Powercranks (www.powercranks.com) are expensive, but in my personal experience, they certainly help to smooth out my pedal stroke. however, they are a long-term commitment (think at least a year), and they are bloody expensive (got mine used). and, the jury is out on whether they'll improve race performance. I recall research showing that they don't improve power output, but they do improve efficiency.

I think If I were going to use something, this would be it....
Th ONLY thing stopping me is the price...
If the price was 500 for a set , then I would have ordered...
IMMEDIATELY!
but 800 -1000 EH!

I recall research showing that they don't improve power output, but they do improve efficiency.

What I recall is that this is all bunk, or at the very least it has never been shown to be the case that pedaling "technique" can improve either power output or efficiency. Kind of like the whole issue of an "ideal" cranklength for people of differing leg lengths. Everyone knows it's true because that's what they've heard, but when someone looks at it in a controlled manner, they can't find any evidence.

What I recall is that this is all bunk, or at the very least it has never been shown to be the case that pedaling "technique" can improve either power output or efficiency. Kind of like the whole issue of an "ideal" cranklength for people of differing leg lengths. Everyone knows it's true because that's what they've heard, but when someone looks at it in a controlled manner, they can't find any evidence.

As recently as two days ago, my right knee was a little sore.... When riding I was a bit in pain on the down stroke.... However when I consiously tried to smooth out my cadence by pulling with the left, my right knee was ok with the lighter load.... I also pulled up with the right (with no pain) and consequently was ALSO doing 2 MPH more with less effort from both legs....

The HARDEST part with pedaling smoothly is that is TAKES an active though process to do it... I find myself falling into the LEFT PUSH, RIGHT PUSH, LEFT PUSH, RIGHT PUSH... and when trying to race , go up a hill, chase some one down, its even worse as the thought process PUSH HARDER, PUSH HARDER....

Its hard to make your feet , push down, send you feet around the pottom (scuff mud off), pull up, push over the top and back to push down.... and consequently do the OPPOSITE command for the other foot...

For me the power cranks appear to be just what I'm looking for.... Its just a matter of time when I see them at a good price....
Unfortunately my aquisition list for THIS winter only included the krietler alloys and a kurt kinnetic for this winter....

I disagree as well. Although I don't think that you need powercranks. In fact, I know that there are several really good drills that can help you improve your pedal stroke. And I know that they work. They did extensive tests on a bunch of us at the OTC some years ago.

... with the Powercranks nonsense??! You are giving the Sherpa ideas. Believe you me that man does not need any help at all to make my life hell.

Dude, I lowered my saddle. News at 11. I'm going to Excel this week to see if they can shim up my right leg properly without blowing out my hip flexors again. All this cadence crap is antagonising my LLD issues.

I disagree as well. Although I don't think that you need powercranks. In fact, I know that there are several really good drills that can help you improve your pedal stroke. And I know that they work. They did extensive tests on a bunch of us at the OTC some years ago.

So how did it improve?
Increased max power? Over what time period?
Improved time to exhaustion at a given power output?
Increased efficiency?

IOW, what was the definition of "improved" pedaling technique, how was it measured and was it correlated with some improvement in performance? And did they have a control group that was doing the same training except for the pedaling technique work, that failed to show improvement in performance?

I've got a really, really simple way to help you with the smoothing out the cadence thing.

Ride a fixed gear bike all winter.

By spring, you'll have a much smoother spin over all RPM ranges.

When yer not riding the FG, ride rollers. They help too.

M

already been thru that with the Sherpa, and he's mentioned it here elsewhere. FG is only good for certain things. Ride it all winter and what you will get is a bunch of bad habits. The gear helps you too much. Same with too much Spinning class.

Rollers suck, bigtime. Especially when a lot of winter days here are 55-60 degrees and sunny.

Here is the bottom line for me...

I've done the one legged thing... Although it would eventually strengthen my legs , its is awkward and I never really FEEL like I got the rythm when both feet are clicked in...

I've done the heavy gear and slow mental riding... but when I get to my normal gears its back to push push push....

And looking at a chart or graph or output does NOT give you the feedback that will tell you when you are doing it wrong.... Its kinda like shooting Skeet or trap... When you miss there is no target to let you know where you missed... I miss a lot...

I also BELIEVE in the smoothe cadence concept... I'm not a pro nor will I ever be... (I'm 48) but there are some things that I think are valid in reading Lance armstrongs performance program book...

1: Spin to win.... If you can develop you pulmonary system this is the way to go faster...

2: An even cadence... There is plenty of energy being waisted at the pedals... I'm just trying to recoupe some of it.... As evidence of this , from the articles that I have read on the power cranks, it takes a good 3 months to get use to the cranks.... Evidence enough that we need a lot of time to get the push, pull cadence without thinking about it...

3: weight managent - key to winning.... The laws of physics RULE!

So
I am going to get the pedals...
I am going to give it three months, (what better time than now - the off season)...
I can afford to do so...
And at 48 ... when you wan to try something , tomorrow is not always there....


Thanks for all the help fellas.... I love you guys...
Signing off from this thread!
JR

already been thru that with the Sherpa, and he's mentioned it here elsewhere. FG is only good for certain things. Ride it all winter and what you will get is a bunch of bad habits. The gear helps you too much. Same with too much Spinning class.

Rollers suck, bigtime. Especially when a lot of winter days here are 55-60 degrees and sunny.

LFR is correct. A fixed gear does much of hte work for you leading to some holes in the pedal stroke. Do it for a whole winter and then to a high rpm sprint and you'll what I mean. Your feet won't want to pick up at the bottom of the stroke.

All a FG is good for is making a 2 hour ride a two hour ride as you have to pedal the whole thing. The reason that it can be useful is that is forces you to pedal the entire ride and after an offseason, that's not always something the body loves to do. Therefore, it helps it to get back into the pedalling way of life.

LFR, I got the PM. Stay tuned.