View Full Version : UN responsible for F up of missing weapons!
Live Steam 10-27-2004, 08:45 AM This is just another example of the incompetence of the UN. It is also another example of how the UN is in league with the liberal left here in the US.
Urgent Warning on Iraqi Cache Issued in 1995
BY ELI LAKE - Staff Reporter of the Sun
October 27, 2004
URL: http://www.nysun.com/article/3826
WASHINGTON - Nine years ago, U.N. weapons inspectors urgently called on the International Atomic Energy Agency to demolish powerful plastic explosives in a facility that Iraq's interim government said this month was looted due to poor security.
The chief American weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, told The New York Sun yesterday that in 1995, when he was a member of the U.N. inspections team in Iraq, he urged the United Nations' atomic watchdog to remove tons of explosives that have since been declared missing.
Mr. Duelfer said he was rebuffed at the time by the Vienna-based agency because its officials were not convinced the presence of the HMX, RDX, and PETN explosives was directly related to Saddam Hussein's programs to amass weapons of mass destruction.
Instead of accepting recommendations to destroy the stocks, Mr. Duelfer said, the atomic-energy agency opted to continue to monitor them.
By e-mail, Mr. Duelfer wrote the Sun, "The policy was if acquired for the WMD program and used for it, it should be subject for destruction. The HMX was just that. Nevertheless the IAEA decided to let Iraq keep the stuff, like they needed more explosives."
On Monday a spokesman for the U.N. agency said its director general, Mohammed ElBaradei, was preparing a report on the missing material for the Security Council, concerned lest the explosives, which can be used to detonate a nuclear weapon, fall into the wrong hands. HMX, RDX, and PETN are more commonly used to create C4, an explosive that has both industrial and military uses. Libyan terrorists used a pound of similar plastic explosives in 1988 to destroy the commercial airliner Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland.
In 1995, Mr. ElBaradei was an assistant director of the the atomic-energy agency for external relations. His boss, Hans Blix, eventually took over the U.N. inspections team that was on the ground in Iraq before the war. Mr. Blix argued, in a book published after his retirement, that Iraq lacked the weapons programs American and European intelligence said it had kept concealed. Mr. Duelfer came to a similar conclusion, although he stressed in his report that Mr. Hussein had the intent to restart those programs.
Until this week, the Kerry campaign had used the assessments of the weapons inspectors to bludgeon the Bush administration for failing to substantiate the assertions it presented in March 2003 to justify the war. But yesterday the Kerry campaign launched an advertisement touting the failure to account for the explosives at Al Qaqaa as evidence of the president's incompetence.
The vice president of the American Enterprise Institute for foreign and defense policy studies, Danielle Pletka, told the Sun yesterday, "What is odd to me is that the Kerry campaign is suddenly concerned about WMD in Iraq and Mohammed ElBaradei after years of indifference, is suddenly concerned about conventional explosives in the Middle East." Ms. Pletka is a supporter of Mr. Bush's re-election.
The Bush campaign touted an NBC News report Monday that said the explosives were missing from Al Qaqaa when troops arrived at the facility April 10, 2003. U.N. weapons inspectors visited the facility on March 15 of that year and verified that the seals on the facility protecting the explosives were intact, according to agency's spokeswoman. The absence of the explosives less than four weeks later could suggest that they were gone before coalition troops had a chance to guard them.
NBC issued a corrective report last evening, however, saying the troops who visited the facility on April 10, 2003, did not look for the explosives. The reporter, Lai Ling Jew, who was embedded in the unit that arrived at the scene, said, "There wasn't a search."
"The mission that the brigade had was to get to Baghdad," she said. "That was more of a pit stop there for us. And, you know, the searching, I mean, certainly some of the soldiers headed off on their own, looked through the bunkers just to look at the vast amount of ordnance lying around. But as far as we could tell, there was no move to secure the weapons, nothing to keep looters away."
On Monday, a spokesman for the American mission at the United Nations questioned the timing of the release of the material on the part of Mr. ElBaradei. Rick Grenell told the Sun's Benny Avni the "timing seems puzzling."
After a behind-the-scenes battle inside the State Department this summer, the Bush administration opted to reject Mr. ElBaradei's bid for a third term as director general of the atomic energy agency.
At the time, Washington was collecting intelligence - disputed by some agencies - that Mr. ElBaradei was providing advice to Iran on how to avoid sanction from his organization for its previously undisclosed uranium enrichment programs.
Mr. al-Baradei has publicly urged the Iranians to heed an earlier pledge to suspend enrichment, but he has also opposed America's policy of taking Iranian violations to the U.N. Security Council. Mr. al-Baradei has announced he will nonetheless seek a third term. Nominations for the director general position close on December 31.
Bocephus Jones II 10-27-2004, 08:49 AM Bush's puppet Allawi is blaming the US. Didn't you hear that yesterday? Keep up Steam.
velocity 10-27-2004, 08:51 AM It must feel good to always find evidence that this administration really isn't incompetent. After every f*ck up Steam spends all his free time searching for any shred of evidence that the buck doesn't stop in the Oval Office. What would happen if Steam faced the truth? That they don't know what the f*ck they're doing.
Henry Chinaski 10-27-2004, 08:55 AM It's actually Sean Penn's fault.
MR_GRUMPY 10-27-2004, 08:55 AM What is really scary, is if they DO know what they are doing.
Bocephus Jones II 10-27-2004, 08:57 AM It must feel good to always find evidence that this administration really isn't incompetent. After every f*ck up Steam spends all his free time searching for any shred of evidence that the buck doesn't stop in the Oval Office. What would happen if Steam faced the truth? That they don't know what the f*ck they're doing.
It's like a challenge to Steams world. He would just implode if he had to admit he was wrong about Bush. See what happened to Doug? Steam is grasping at straws now. Newsmax is his last source of refuge.
Live Steam 10-27-2004, 09:06 AM No I don't have a simple mind and simple understanding of the facts like amny fo you do. I look at the whole story before jumping to conclusions. Let's look at this in reality. Estimates have been conducted to determine what it would take to "loot" 380 tons of explosives while the US military was monitoring every movement of people in and around these facilities.
Calculations:
-380 tons / [((12hrs/dayX60min/hr) / (5 min per load)) X (25 lbs per load) X 14 days] = 15 loaders X 2 = 30 loaders/unloaders
-30 loaders/unloaders times 200% for breaks, rest, inefficiency, etc. = 60 loaders and unloaders.
-380 tons / [(12hrs/day / 1 hr/round trip,load,unload) X (.25 tons per trip) X 14 days] = 10 trucks and drivers X 1.5 (contingency) = 15 trucks and drivers.
-4 trucks + 10-15 men to supply water, food and other logistical
requirements
Total = 19-20 trucks, 90 men working continuously for two weeks to "loot" facility.
Bottom line this operation would take the resources of AN ENTIRE COMPANY (approx. 100 men) OVER TWO WEEKS, good Intel to know exactly where the "right" explosives were hidden and a means of breaching huge steel doors and concrete of an ASP.
Gripped 10-27-2004, 09:24 AM I don't know how you can blame the UN for the fact that the US didn't guard know caches of munitions. You can make a bullet proof case that the UN inspectors should have pressured the IAEA to remove those dual use explosives ingredients. Fine. I'll grant you that. However, the Administration KNEW about that stuff but didn't adequately secure it as part of the invasion.
Suppose, for a moment, that I lived on your street and I noticed that a manhole cover was missing. Being a good citizen, I called the muni DOT and reported the missing cover. The next day I noticed that the cover still had not been replaced. I then see you pulling out of your driveway. I call out to you and let you know that the manhole cover is missing. Then you merrily drive your passenger side front wheel right into the gaping hole and do massive damage to you shiny car. Are you saying that it is the city's fault that you screwed up your car? If you say yes, then I claim you are a hypocrite because you have been a proponent of personal responsibility on this board.
BTW, if you drill down the article you might notice:
NBC issued a corrective report last evening, however, saying the troops who visited the facility on April 10, 2003, did not look for the explosives. The reporter, Lai Ling Jew, who was embedded in the unit that arrived at the scene, said, "There wasn't a search."
In fact, CBS talked to the commander of the unit that visited al Qaqaa with that NBC reporter:
The commander of the first unit into the area told CBS he did not search it for explosives or secure it from looters. "We were still in a fight," he said. "our focus was killing bad guys." He added he would have needed four times more troops to search and secure all the ammo dumps he came across.
Not enough troops. Inadaquate planning. Incompetance.
Live Steam 10-27-2004, 09:29 AM Do you like being so wrong? They inspected that facility and found no such explosives when they arrived. They were missing before they arrived. Note the date of the article and what they found there. Please see the following:
U.S. Searches 'Suspicious' Iraqi Site
NEAR BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 4, 2003
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(Photo: CBS)
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"It is clearly a suspicious site."
Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rd Infantry Division
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(CBS) U.S. troops found thousands of boxes of white powder, nerve agent antidote and Arabic documents on how to engage in chemical warfare at an industrial site south of Baghdad. But a senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the materials were believed to be explosives.
Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, said the materials were found Friday at the Latifiyah industrial complex just south of Baghdad.
"It is clearly a suspicious site," Peabody said.
CBS News National Security Correspondent David Martin reports that the hunt for weapons of mass destruction continues at sites where the U.S. thought chemicals weapons might be hidden.
"And although there are no reports of actual weapons being found, there are constant finds of suspicious material," Martin said. "It obviously will take laboratory testing to find out exactly what that powder is."
The senior U.S. official, based in Washington and speaking on condition of anonymity, said the material was under further study. The site is enormous and U.S. troops are still investigating it for potential weapons of mass destruction, the official said.
"Initial reports are that the material is probably just explosives, but we're still going through the place," the official said.
Peabody said troops found thousands of boxes, each of which contained three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare.
He also said they discovered atropine, used to counter the effects of nerve agents.
The facility had been identified by the International Atomic Energy Agency as a suspected chemical, biological and nuclear weapons site. U.N. inspectors visited the plant at least nine times, including as recently as Feb. 18.
The facility is part of a larger complex known as the Latifiyah Explosives and Ammunition Plant al Qa Qaa.
During the 1991 Gulf War, U.S. jets bombed the plant.
Troops also discovered what they believe is a training center for nuclear, chemical and biological warfare in Iraq's western desert, Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said Friday.
One bottle found at the site was labeled "tabun" — a nerve agent that the U.S. government says may have been used during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. The soldiers found only a small amount of the chemical, indicating the site was meant for training, not storing or deploying chemical weapons, Brooks said.
"In that particular site, we believe that was the only sample," Brooks said. "That's why we believe it was a training site. Our conclusion is that this was not a (weapons of mass destruction) site ... it proved to be far less than that."
Photos of the site showed shelves of brown bottles with yellow labels. Brooks said troops did not understand some of the labels and were collecting the bottles for examination by experts.
On April 1, Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan, in a statement on Iraqi television, repeated Baghdad's position that it had no weapons of mass destruction. Referring to reports that gas masks and other chemical gear had been found elsewhere in the country, he said the coalition might plant weapons of mass destruction to implicate Iraq.
"Let me say one more time that Iraq is free of weapons of mass destruction," he said.
"The aggressors may themselves intend to bring those materials to plant them here and say those are weapons of mass destruction," he said
Gripped 10-27-2004, 09:31 AM Total = 19-20 trucks, 90 men working continuously for two weeks to "loot" facility.
Bottom line this operation would take the resources of AN ENTIRE COMPANY (approx. 100 men) OVER TWO WEEKS, good Intel to know exactly where the "right" explosives were hidden and a means of breaching huge steel doors and concrete of an ASP.
I've heard estimates of something like 40 trucks to cart the ~300 tons of explosives making materials out of the facility. The UN had inspected the facility (March 8) shorty before the onset of hostilities and the stuff was there. al Qaqaa was a known location with potential WMD materials. Don't you think that the US was paying attention to that dump? Do you think that Sadam could have moved ~300 tons of stuff out of there without our satellites and recon aircraft seeing it? I think not. It got moved after the start of hostilities by some organized folks.
Live Steam 10-27-2004, 09:35 AM Very good Sherlock! Yes the stuff was moved after hostilities started, but we did not have any military in the area to prevent their removal. They were moved prior to the US securing the site. Not while we were in control of it as the original story alleged!
velocity 10-27-2004, 09:38 AM Very good Sherlock! Yes the stuff was moved after hostilities started, but we did not have any military in the area to prevent their removal. They were moved prior to the US securing the site. Not while we were in control of it as the original story alleged!
The White House didn't know that it was missing until ten days ago though?
Gripped 10-27-2004, 09:43 AM Do you like being so wrong?
Well, that article doesn't actually prove me wrong. Since the NY Sun article mentioned the April 10 visit, I thought I would shed some more light on that visit. As the article you pointed to states, the first visit by US tropps was on the 4th. The powder they found that they suspected was expolsives actually turned out to be ... explosives. In fact, the thousands of boxes of the stuff is what turned out to be missing.
The point is, the US knew there were munitions at al Qaqaa. Yet they didn't secure those munitions. Those munitions were subsequently looted. Don't cha think that maybe we might ought'a guarded that stuff?
I mean, the articles you keep on pointing to and the points you keep on making lead me to conclude that you agree with me.
Gripped 10-27-2004, 09:48 AM The White House didn't know that it was missing until ten days ago though?
Wrong. The Iraqis told Bremer about this in May of this year. So the administration has know about this since at least then. Also, since that stuff was IAEA inspected material, they were supposed to report the fact that it was missing to the IAEA but instead they covered it up until it came out now.
BTW, Bremer is mum. Won't talk about this at all. Says that his publisher has advised him not to talk since he's writing a book. What a joke.
velocity 10-27-2004, 10:01 AM Wrong. The Iraqis told Bremer about this in May of this year. So the administration has know about this since at least then. Also, since that stuff was IAEA inspected material, they were supposed to report the fact that it was missing to the IAEA but instead they covered it up until it came out now.
BTW, Bremer is mum. Won't talk about this at all. Says that his publisher has advised him not to talk since he's writing a book. What a joke.
Interesting! He's also one of a number of people who should have been listened to who wanted more troops deployed in Iraq.
The White House press secretary Scott McClellan was quoted in the media on 10/25 as saying... ...the Iraqi government reported the missing weaponry to the IAEA in a letter dated October 10, and the IAEA informed the U.S. mission in Vienna on October 15. National security adviser Condoleezza Rice was told a few days later, then informed the president.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/25/iraq.explosives/
almccm 10-27-2004, 11:19 AM Steam reads every word that agrees with his position. He just can't see the words that show he's wrong. You must be a dangerous person if you can see those words. You probably think the emperor has no clothes :-)
mohair_chair 10-27-2004, 11:47 AM Very good Sherlock! Yes the stuff was moved after hostilities started, but we did not have any military in the area to prevent their removal. They were moved prior to the US securing the site. Not while we were in control of it as the original story alleged!
Ever heard of the Air Force? The Navy? They fly planes, planes carry bombs, bombs can fall where you don't have troops. Wouldn't you think trucks leaving this facility would make a high value target? Or was the Bush Administration so desperate to find even a shred of evidence that would "prove" that saddam was hiding WMDs that they refused to bomb the facility? Considering the past history of this place, there is no way they weren't watching it. And if they weren't, that's even more incompetant.
How many American troops have died because this stuff got out?
mohair_chair 10-27-2004, 11:50 AM Ah, the irony. You quoting CBS news after you trashed them and suggested they be shut down for incompetance and "willful smearing."
Gripped 10-27-2004, 01:16 PM Ever heard of the Air Force? The Navy? They fly planes, planes carry bombs, bombs can fall where you don't have troops. Wouldn't you think trucks leaving this facility would make a high value target? Or was the Bush Administration so desperate to find even a shred of evidence that would "prove" that saddam was hiding WMDs that they refused to bomb the facility? Considering the past history of this place, there is no way they weren't watching it. And if they weren't, that's even more incompetant.
Exactly. The US was watching everything moving on the ground. During hostilities, don't you think that the US would be looking for heavy truck convoys moving to and from a weapons depot? HVT, baby. watch 'em burn.
How many American troops have died because this stuff got out?
Interesting you should ask. Check out this article by Chi Trib reporter Rick Jervis with a posting date of Oct. 4, 2004:
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/world/9849036.htm
I'll quote an interesting section:
Later that night, a six-vehicle convoy was returning from a mission in central Latifiyah when an IED exploded under one of the armored Humvees. The bomb disintegrated the Humvee's front end. Its transmission and engine parts rained down on the vehicles behind it, and the grenade launcher mounted on its roof was found in a field 30 feet away, according to a witness.
Officials blamed insurgents who they described as Baath Party loyalists and an assortment of common criminals.
All five passengers survived, saved by the Humvee's armor. With two weeks in Iraq, three members from the 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines have been recommended for Purple Hearts.
Sgt. Eliasard Alcauter, a vehicle commander, was in the back seat.
"I saw a bright flash but didn't even hear the bang," said Alcauter, who suffered a mild back sprain. "Next thing I know, it was like I was riding a rodeo horse. The vehicle was bouncing up and down. It was crazy."
The insurgents probably are using weapons and ammunition looted from the nearby Qa-Qaa complex, a 3-mile by 3-mile weapons-storage facility about 25 miles southwest of Baghdad, said Maj. Brian Neil, operations officer for the 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, which initially patrolled the area.
The facility was bombed during last year's invasion and then left unguarded, Neil said. "There's definitely no shortage of weapons around here," he said.
rufus 10-27-2004, 03:29 PM according to steam, the explosives have been missing since mar/april 2003, before US forces even got to the site. so the US knew in mar/april 2003 that the explosives were missing.
according to white house spokesman scott mcclellan, the US was only informed that these explosives were missing ten days ago.
according to iraq, paul bremer was informed of the missing explosives in may of 2004.
ok, who's lying? what did the president know, and when did he know it? which is worse; knowing they've been missing for over a year and not saying anything about it, or having them missing for a year and not knowing about it. incompetence or ignorance? your choice.
as for steam and his sources. one group of US troops enters al qaqaa on april 4th, discover explosives, and are said to be investigating. and yet, the site is not secured, nor US forces present when a second group arrives less than a week later. this second group says they see no sign of explosives, though they didn't investigate thoroughly, nor any signs of looting. are the explosives still there or not? how could steam's force of 100 men working for two weeks around the clock, and their convoy of 20 trucks, escape detection by military satellite or air reconnaisence? especially when this was a known possible WMD site, and certain to be heavily watched? again, ignorance or incompetence?
Dave_Stohler 10-27-2004, 09:31 PM The mising munitions total 377 tons. That's about 20 tractor-trailer loads of explosives. One would assume that satellite surveillance would've seen the fleet of trucks and/or cars looting this stuff. This would certainly be seen by satellite surveillance. No question about it.
If the theft happened before the fall of SH, don't you think the administration would be showing us the photos right now?? Of course they would. But they aren't. Why? Because they know that it happened during the anarchy ensuing our "liberation" of Iraq, that's why.
Gotcha!!!
BTW, I think Goss will have to do a lot of explaining to President Kerry in January....
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