This is probably the wrong forum but I wanted to ask this where it would
get maximum viewing.

With all the hysteria over doping and talk of minimum two year bans up
to lifetime bans then what does everybody think of Eddie Merckx? The
greatest cyclist of all time who was kicked out of the 1969 Giro for a
positive dope test? ( I know he denied and still denies it vehemently,
sound familar?)

The fact still is he tested postivive by the rules of the time.
By todays standards he should have been banned for at least two years
if not life.

Does that take away from some or all of his accomplishments?

Just food for thought

It belongs in the Pro-cycling Forum.

Does that take away from some or all of his accomplishments?

IMO... no.
His testing was conducted with a press release and there was almost no methodology documented on how Giro officials reached their conclusion. The two best Italians of the day, Adorni and Gimondi were thrashed by Merckx in the '68 Giro by 5 and 9 minutes and there is much speculation of a setup.

Italy wasn't too keen on getting whupped by that pesky Belgian. By his 69 TdF performance (where he was tested clean) it's clear he'd have doubled.

We've had similar discussions on here before if you do a search (though it's definately a good time to bring it back up). Anyways, the B sample of Merckx's positive dope test in the '69 Giro disappeared mysteriously before it could be analyzed.

Some of them don't have any/many facts to back 'em but this is a pretty comprehensive list of riders (pro and amateur) that have tested positive for performance enhancing drugs, with the date and drug used:

http://cyclisme.dopage.free.fr/annuaire.htm#

There are too many grey areas in testing and guilt IMO. For instance, Ullrich's out of competition test for recreational drugs, Garzelli's weird positive for Probenicide, or Simoni's positive for cocaine that was traced to throat lozenges. Also there is the possibility of lab error or intentional contamination of a water bottle or accidental contamination of a legal supplement. Should a rider caught with EPO in his hotel room and then testing positive be treated the same as a rider that accidently takes a cold medicine with psuedo-ephidrine? You could justify a lifetime ban in the first case but certainly not in the second.

More needs to be done to change the culture within the teams and support staff as well as sanctioning of the riders, and I think this is starting to happen.

BAi, thanks for the link to doper list, that was interesting.

and agreed Merckx's missing B is most likely the Italians covering their tracks.
As for Simoni's test, I'm calling BS on the losenge (wasn't that excuse #2 after the dentist stuff wasn't flying?). Most likely was recreational like JU. Agree needs grey area as Rec. usage shouldn't DQ for life. Problem being Rec. used stims vs Perf. Used Stims...how to distinguish? Rec if discovered between Nov and Jan for roadies?

As for Simoni's test, I'm calling BS on the losenge (wasn't that excuse #2 after the dentist stuff wasn't flying?). Most likely was recreational like JU.

If memory serves me right, Simoni was caught twice. The first time it was because of a visit to the dentist. The second time it was magic candies from Peru. He may very well have a recreational drug problem. On the other hand, it might be his version of pot belge he uses at the end of some races.

UCI has to have a ban on drugs that have perf. enh / recreational usages. (ie Cocaine)
how are they to determine rider/users intent? (No I did the coke after the race at a victory party). I think Simoni's 'double' was in reference to the same bust. I'd have to look it up.

I personally think its all a lip service gig with doping. I mean seriously, its a team sport, you get caught dopin' then the team gets whacked by being excluded from the next 3 CdM (ok, pro tour) races. then charge the sponsors with fines. it would clear things up quickly.

tc

Here's a case to muddy the waters:

18 year old Shane Perkins will lose his Keirin world gold medal after a positive drugs test. He bought an over the counter nasal spray - same kind he always used - but the US variety contains a product on the banned list and, bingo, he tests positive.

US over the counter medicines can be blamed for several positives - Alan Baxter the British bronze medallist skier comes to mind.

But then, shouldn't all athletes check any over the counter medicaments with their team doctor?

But it seems like it would be mighty unfair to condemn him to a life ban...

Here's a case to muddy the waters:

18 year old Shane Perkins will lose his Keirin world gold medal after a positive drugs test. He bought an over the counter nasal spray - same kind he always used - but the US variety contains a product on the banned list and, bingo, he tests positive.

US over the counter medicines can be blamed for several positives - Alan Baxter the British bronze medallist skier comes to mind.

But then, shouldn't all athletes check any over the counter medicaments with their team doctor?

But it seems like it would be mighty unfair to condemn him to a life ban...


exactly. i would reserve a life ban for a big deal like Millar and possibly Tyler once that gets sorted out clearly. Intentional, planned doping should be heavily penalized. OTC drug components as you describe would fall under a different situation...one in which a warcning should be issued, but no "criminal" offense. Remember Jonathon Vaughters and his bee sting? Surely he should have been able to get antihistamines to permit him to continue. The problem seems to me that the rules are archaic and not set up to cope with reality. Would JV have rocketed to the maillot jaune becuase of that???????? that incident took one of the classiest riders out of the tour for a completely stupid application of the rule.

tc

is akin to 3 strikes rule. leaves no room for judge(s) to look for grey areas (see above posts). I think they need to get more strict but they need room to fit penalty to crime

Why doesn't the governing body create an approved list. Just enumerate all the things that athletes are allowed to put in or on their bodies. Then this would help deal with the grey areas.

The problem with tampering is a little scary, so it would be nice if somehow they can create a testing system that eliminates as many possible problems with testing as possible.

How often do riders get tested? I wonder if increasing the testing and imposing 2-year bans would be enough to clean up the sport?

The benefits of winning a big race probably outweighs the risks still. Also there are no tests for Autologous blood transfusions (taking your own blood).

Coot!