Article titled "On the Fall of Empires"

The Fall of the Roman Empire can be traced to the demise of the republican values that created it. In modern terms we can compare this to the death of our middle class. Our country was founded not just on Democratic principles, but the idea that the people were the owners of the country.

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Our founding fathers were idealists. They can rightfully be compared to Caesar, and the early Romans. But though our present leadership uses the same slogans, and shrouds their policies in the same idealism, it is clear they don’t believe in anything. It is said that Nero fiddled while Rome fell, our leadership has fiddled as well, while our country has descended into mediocrity.

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The last vestiges of Christianity in our country can be found predominantly in rural America. There you can still find people who go to church on Sundays and read, or even believe, the Bible. They are the pagans, the rural people holding to the old ways.


http://thepopulist.typepad.com/essays/2003/10/on_the_fall_of_.html

I think the blame goes way beyond the past three administrations though. We lost our way sometime around the Monroe admin. Yet another similarity with Rome -- after Julius Caesar and Augustus the rest pale in comparison. Constantine was pretty bright, however, in that he saw the decay that had come to define Rome and moved to lay the foundations for the Byzantine Empire.

Before any of our zealous fellows from the other side of the aisle chime in....the writer calls Clinton a "*****" so you have that going right there...RTFA.

Not sure about the historical accuracy of "idealists" in our founding fathers may be Jefferson certainly not Madison and Definately not Hamilton. Likening them to Caeser seems a bit off as well although Abigail Adams was fond of thinking of Hamilton as a miniature "Bounaparty" if he had the means.

Okay that word is blocked wow. I did not know that. Huh. Shows how desensitized I am I thought it was part of everyday vernacular ... must be my moral decay. Anyway finish this sentence...The _______ of Babylon.

motherfcuker?

motherfcuker?
Hore...spelled phonetically.

actually more a true parallel is tit for tat. Ancient Romans (Pagan) had more in common cosmologically with our founding fathers whilst the present Admin and it's supporters are more of the Byzantine Ilk. When theology was a background to society Rome functioned fine (under the old gods). When Christianity stepped in (HRE) it split power amongst secular and and sacred, then split sacred into 2 houses and then in it's over ambitious plans at Imperialism collapsed under the weight of "too big a military".
has a familiar ring doesn't it

I think the blame goes way beyond the past three administrations though. We lost our way sometime around the Monroe admin. Yet another similarity with Rome -- after Julius Caesar and Augustus the rest pale in comparison. Constantine was pretty bright, however, in that he saw the decay that had come to define Rome and moved to lay the foundations for the Byzantine Empire.


The 5 good emperors do not pale in comparison to Julius Caesar and Augustus. The real trouble started after Marcus Aurelius, he had a son that was a crazy and a moron. It was all down hill after that.

The 5 good emperors do not pale in comparison to Julius Caesar and Augustus. The real trouble started after Marcus Aurelius, he had a son that was a crazy and a moron. It was all down hill after that.
Tell me about it... it's a good thing Commodus was killed by Maximus in the Colluseum. :rolleyes:

Augustus' reign marked the zenith of the Empire prior to the split between east and west. None of the emperors thereafter, even the successful ones, came close to achieving as much as Caesar and Augustus did.

Tell me about it... it's a good thing Commodus was killed by Maximus in the Colluseum. :rolleyes:

Augustus' reign marked the zenith of the Empire prior to the split between east and west. None of the emperors thereafter, even the successful ones, came close to achieving as much as Caesar and Augustus did.


What about Comicus? We need a miracle...MIRACLE.

Gregory Hines to Oedipus, "Hey what's up Mother fu--er!"

You realise, all you need to do is get the first and last letters correct to be understood, and you can mix the other letters up. That way, you can write the whords worhe and fcuk and siht and even longer words like alosshe.

Tell me about it... it's a good thing Commodus was killed by Maximus in the Colluseum. :rolleyes:

Augustus' reign marked the zenith of the Empire prior to the split between east and west. None of the emperors thereafter, even the successful ones, came close to achieving as much as Caesar and Augustus did.

Augustus was a great emperor, I agree. But the 5 good emperors had many more problems to deal with. A great leader succeeds during the bad times as well as the good. The 5 good Emperors had more problems to deal with and did a great job to preserve the Pax Romana. The empire started to fall apart before the 5 good emperors but they kept it together. It was after, when his moron of a son and his horrible successors took power, that the empire was done for.

The real trouble started after Marcus Aurelius, he had a son that was a crazy and a moron. It was all down hill after that.

One can't help but draw some comparisons to the Bush dynasty!

One can't help but draw some comparisons to the Bush dynasty!
It's not just the Bush dynasty. I agree with the notion in the article that we're following Rome's path rather closely (I'll add: and have been since Monroe.) Like TMB, I disagree with the comparison of the emperors and our framers, but for the most part, other than that, I think the author is mostly correct.

The grand experiment is close to coming to an end, IMO. The far left and far right are doing their damndest to tear this nation apart and have been pretty successful so far.

That's silly. This country was *founded* by Christians. Jefferson, as superintendent of Washington schools, required reading of the Bible in the public schools. While the founders sought to avoid the country requiring adherence to any particular religion, they were not atheists and never envisioned a country devoid of religion. The country has become less religous during it's existence, sure, but the vast majority of Americans still think of themselves as Christians.

If the argument is that this country started out atheistic and is now turning Christian, to its detriment, and that the country will fall because of it, that's completely backwards and untrue. It completely ignores reality, even if the construct better matches the "fall of the Roman Empire" theme.

I think what we are seeing is a backlash from Christians who believe that their rights have been trampled upon for the last 50 years by those who would seek to eliminate public mention of religion. There may be a little overcompensation, but it's just plain silly to claim that it will be the demise of the country.

Article titled "On the Fall of Empires"

The Fall of the Roman Empire can be traced to the demise of the republican values that created it. In modern terms we can compare this to the death of our middle class. Our country was founded not just on Democratic principles, but the idea that the people were the owners of the country.

.................................................. ................................................

Our founding fathers were idealists. They can rightfully be compared to Caesar, and the early Romans. But though our present leadership uses the same slogans, and shrouds their policies in the same idealism, it is clear they don’t believe in anything. It is said that Nero fiddled while Rome fell, our leadership has fiddled as well, while our country has descended into mediocrity.

.................................................. ..................................................

The last vestiges of Christianity in our country can be found predominantly in rural America. There you can still find people who go to church on Sundays and read, or even believe, the Bible. They are the pagans, the rural people holding to the old ways.


http://thepopulist.typepad.com/essays/2003/10/on_the_fall_of_.html

To claim the "middle class" is disappearing is a false premise for the "fall of the empire" argument, too. Where the heck does this guy live?

"Last vestiges of Christianity"? About 77% of Americans identify themselves as Christian, and 81% with some religion. They can't all be "rural people holding to their ways." Again, this article overstates things and lies, really, to shoehorn it's thesis into the Roman Empire construct. It's really not even worth discussing.

actually more a true parallel is tit for tat. Ancient Romans (Pagan) had more in common cosmologically with our founding fathers whilst the present Admin and it's supporters are more of the Byzantine Ilk. When theology was a background to society Rome functioned fine (under the old gods). When Christianity stepped in (HRE) it split power amongst secular and and sacred, then split sacred into 2 houses and then in it's over ambitious plans at Imperialism collapsed under the weight of "too big a military".
has a familiar ring doesn't it

This is OT, but it's funny you can't type "wh0re" but "tit" in the above is OK. Over on Slowtwitch they cuss as much as they want. Why not here?

was far closer to Paganism than today's mass of BA's. They were far less literal, far more of the Unitarian ilk which would be considered Anti-Christian by today's fundamentalist, literalist masses. This country has, as far as Christian Cosmology goes, gone from a liberal faith base to a neo-orthodoxy bordering on Taliban-esque fanaticism.
that is the antithesis of progress, that's heading to a new dark age which is what happened to the HRE.

"(T)heir rights have been trampled upon for the last 50 years" may be how many Christians frame it. But what "rights" are being trampled? AFAIK, no Christian has the right to see his or her personal superstitions vindicated by our government.

I think that this backlash is really against the inevitable and accelerating demise of religion's direct influence on public policy. (Creationism!? Talk about silly, irrelevant and doomed to "flat Earth" status. Evolution may fall to newer, better science but Creationism will ain't coming back, not matter how many people believe in it.) Many of the universal and self-evidently positive principles that religion has adopted (or co-opted) will survive as the cornerstones of our civilization. But as long as these can not be separated from the backwards, harmful and discredited facets of Religion it is destined to the personal and perhaps ceremonial spheres.

You are correct to note that our society did not start atheistic and become Christian. It started Christian and is becoming atheistic. Members of our society are compensating for this shift by becoming more Christian in their personal lives. The question is whether they will realize and accept this as the preferable arrangement, or try leverage a renaissance of "popular" Christianty to create de facto public Christianity.

what christian rights are being trampled? cause they can't pray in schools? at least they're still allowed to pray. can they worship and practice their religion? certainly. is anyone advocating that they shouldn't be allowed to? not that i know of. does it harm their religion to see two queers walking down the street hand in hand? does it violate their rights?

whereas banning abortion, or a constitutional admendment prohibiting gay marriage does harm the legally protected rights of those involved.

just tell us what rights they've had trampled on. as was argued in the recent gay marriage appeal to the supreme court, just because a party has an interest in the outcome of a decision does not mean that they have been harmed by that decision.

force their dogma on everyone.
oh poor us, we're going to have to pray in our homes, places of worship, etc...
but it's never enough. It's funny how a group that wields enormous political power and influence can try to act like an oppressed group.

but it's never enough. It's funny how a group that wields enormous political power and influence can try to act like an oppressed group.The "victim" mentality.

what christian rights are being trampled? cause they can't pray in schools? at least they're still allowed to pray. can they worship and practice their religion? certainly. is anyone advocating that they shouldn't be allowed to? not that i know of. does it harm their religion to see two queers walking down the street hand in hand? does it violate their rights?

whereas banning abortion, or a constitutional admendment prohibiting gay marriage does harm the legally protected rights of those involved.

just tell us what rights they've had trampled on. as was argued in the recent gay marriage appeal to the supreme court, just because a party has an interest in the outcome of a decision does not mean that they have been harmed by that decision.
One of the basic MOs of Christianity is making more Christians through converting the masses. It logically follows that they (the fanatics) will see anything contradicting their beliefs as a threat to their entire way of life and must be erradicated.

You know, it's posts like yours and czar's in this thread that really make me wonder how we can possibly disagree so strongly in the other one.

It logically follows that they (the fanatics) will see anything contradicting their beliefs as a threat to their entire way of life and must be erradicated.


That pretty much sums up the reason we are at war with Iraq.

That pretty much sums up the reason we are at war with Iraq.
I think that's the icing on the cake for them. The real reason is and always has been oil. If they can help knock a competing ideology out in the process of securing our primary energy supply and enriching themselves even further it's only bonus points for them.

What is really scary to me is that there are a lot of people out there who honestly believe the whole 'liberation' lie. These aren't bad people in any way, only gullable. That doesn't bode well for our kid's and grandkids.

You know, it's posts like yours and czar's in this thread that really make me wonder how we can possibly disagree so strongly in the other one.

hey, i'm a free-thinker. :D

What is really scary to me is that there are a lot of people out there who honestly believe the whole 'liberation' lie. These aren't bad people in any way, only gullable. That doesn't bode well for our kid's and grandkids.
The same people that got GW re-elected I'd say. Only two reasons to vote for GW. Selfishness or ignorance.