As I was perusing the news headlines a couple of days ago, I stared in horrific awe at the headline, “Dutch Hospital Begins Mercy Killings Of Infants.” What does this mean to us as a society? I believe this newest killing of innocent human beings brings us ever closer to the complete and utter devaluation of human life. A society that does not value human life is a very dangerous society indeed. We need to look no further than Hitler to see what happens when human life is devalued. As shocking as this immoral practice is, it is actually just the continuation of the current attempts to kill human beings for convenience or beliefs. This irreverent, humanistic, and completely selfish push has gained its strongest foundation in the institution of legalized abortion. We no longer regard a baby in the womb as a life, we no longer give equal value to the life of elderly people, and now in the Netherlands we no longer respect the life of sick infants. This expanding pattern of killing for convenience should disturb even the most pro-choice people. Society had better realize that killing helpless human beings is wrong or we as a society will begin practicing genocide at new and larger levels. This slippery slope starts with killing babies in the womb, proceeds to kill sick elderly and infants, and then this killing for convenience easily becomes extermination at larger and larger levels. Soon we will be sliding towards Hitler’s evil dream, a ‘selected society’ with the unwanted conveniently and easily murdered. Life is precious and sacred, woe to the man or society that devalues human life, because they are just one step away from death.

Have you noticed the conflict in Iraq?

As I was perusing the news headlines a couple of days ago, I stared in horrific awe at the headline, “Dutch Hospital Begins Mercy Killings Of Infants.” What does this mean to us as a society? I believe this newest killing of innocent human beings brings us ever closer to the complete and utter devaluation of human life. A society that does not value human life is a very dangerous society indeed. We need to look no further than Hitler to see what happens when human life is devalued. As shocking as this immoral practice is, it is actually just the continuation of the current attempts to kill human beings for convenience or beliefs. This irreverent, humanistic, and completely selfish push has gained its strongest foundation in the institution of legalized abortion. We no longer regard a baby in the womb as a life, we no longer give equal value to the life of elderly people, and now in the Netherlands we no longer respect the life of sick infants. This expanding pattern of killing for convenience should disturb even the most pro-choice people. Society had better realize that killing helpless human beings is wrong or we as a society will begin practicing genocide at new and larger levels. This slippery slope starts with killing babies in the womb, proceeds to kill sick elderly and infants, and then this killing for convenience easily becomes extermination at larger and larger levels. Soon we will be sliding towards Hitler’s evil dream, a ‘selected society’ with the unwanted conveniently and easily murdered. Life is precious and sacred, woe to the man or society that devalues human life, because they are just one step away from death.

Horsesh!t. Seems like this a ploy to equate abortion with the indiscriminate killing of, well, everybody. Get a cold? Over 90? Ugly? Burn, baby, burn!

This will never happen, at least in America. Americans are not as liberal as the Dutch, and this is reflected by the differences between our social programs and policies. Hell, the Roe v. Wade decision is still creating a debate today. Get over it.

BTW, I love riding past the abortion protesters on the corner of a main intersection and yelling at them. One always has this sign that says she got knocked up and aborted the fetus and now feels guilty about it. Pick your emotional scabs somewhere else, or risk the wrath of a passing cyclist.

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE...PEOPLE!!!!!

The problem with your hypothesis is that you are using Hitler as a straw man or demonic domino theory personified, what you fail to recognize is that millions of people died in order to defeat Hitler's "dehuminization" it was in part our value of the sacredness of "humaness" as we believe it that drove my grandfather's generation to defeat what was essentially a "Mule" according to Asimov's view of the world.

(hoping I scattered enough bizaar and unconnected references in one post!)

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE...PEOPLE!!!!!

The problem with your hypothesis is that you are using Hitler as a straw man or demonic domino theory personified, what you fail to recognize is that millions of people died in order to defeat Hitler's "dehuminization" it was in part our value of the sacredness of "humaness" as we believe it that drove my grandfather's generation to defeat what was essentially a "Mule" according to Asimov's view of the world.

(hoping I scattered enough bizaar and unconnected references in one post!)

wasn't a Nazi thing, it was a Weimar Republic thing. The most democrartic government in Europe at the time. Very socially enlightened. The distinction is worth pondering.

What if we as societies cut a deal? -- no death penalties, no mercy killings, no abortions. Ban all forms of unnecessary (in the strictest form of the word) killing. Deal?

What if we as societies cut a deal? -- no death penalties, no mercy killings, no abortions. Ban all forms of unnecessary (in the strictest form of the word) killing. Deal?

Weimer 'enlightenment' led to Nazi horrors. As Flannery O'Conner wrote: 'Tenderness leads to the gas chambers.'

Acceptance of euthanasia in Weimar Germany paved the way for Nazi barbarism.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/FedererAuschwitz.shtml


Are you saying that you favor the foundation of Nazi Germany?

What if we as societies cut a deal? -- no death penalties, no mercy killings, no abortions. Ban all forms of unnecessary (in the strictest form of the word) killing. Deal?
Would work great.....on paper. Unfortunately the real world is neither black nor white.

Acceptance of euthanasia in Weimar Germany paved the way for Nazi barbarism.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/FedererAuschwitz.shtml


Are you saying that you favor the foundation of Nazi Germany?

same thing, so I'm not sure what your question could possibly mean or imply.

The claim that life is precious, particularly coming from somebody who supports many of Bush's policies and programs (I'm not saying you do, I'm just saying) is offensively specious and facile. Any actuary can tell you to the dollar what a life is worth, and many governments, including some the United States has buttressed for years, don't put much value on it at all. Conservatives have argued for years that some anti-pollution laws are "based on emotion" because they cost too much money per life saved, and it's better for the economy to get rid of them. That's the value THEY place on life.
On this specific issue, though, I think you're letting emotion get in the way of reality. Have you ever seen an infant with the conditions these kids had? Or cared for a terminally ill child? Or watched someone die of cancer? All that crap about "innocent human beings" and comparing physicians to Hitler is kneejerk BS, and calling it "selfish" is about as ignorant a statement as I've ever heard. Listen to one of your parents begging for death, then tell me euthanasia is selfish.

How about we value the life of the mother over a being that doesn't breathe air? It is a fundamental law that no state may be established within the boundaries of another state. How about a law that states that there cannot be a separate human being within another human being?

Anybody see South Park last night?

Jesthusth Christht


As I was perusing the news headlines a couple of days ago, I stared in horrific awe at the headline, ?Dutch Hospital Begins Mercy Killings Of Infants.? What does this mean to us as a society? I believe this newest killing of innocent human beings brings us ever closer to the complete and utter devaluation of human life. A society that does not value human life is a very dangerous society indeed. We need to look no further than Hitler to see what happens when human life is devalued. As shocking as this immoral practice is, it is actually just the continuation of the current attempts to kill human beings for convenience or beliefs. This irreverent, humanistic, and completely selfish push has gained its strongest foundation in the institution of legalized abortion. We no longer regard a baby in the womb as a life, we no longer give equal value to the life of elderly people, and now in the Netherlands we no longer respect the life of sick infants. This expanding pattern of killing for convenience should disturb even the most pro-choice people. Society had better realize that killing helpless human beings is wrong or we as a society will begin practicing genocide at new and larger levels. This slippery slope starts with killing babies in the womb, proceeds to kill sick elderly and infants, and then this killing for convenience easily becomes extermination at larger and larger levels. Soon we will be sliding towards Hitler?s evil dream, a ?selected society? with the unwanted conveniently and easily murdered. Life is precious and sacred, woe to the man or society that devalues human life, because they are just one step away from death.

Have you ever seen an infant with the conditions these kids had? Or cared for a terminally ill child? Or watched someone die of cancer? All that crap about "innocent human beings" and comparing physicians to Hitler is kneejerk BS, and calling it "selfish" is about as ignorant a statement as I've ever heard. Listen to one of your parents begging for death, then tell me euthanasia is selfish.
Totally agree...gotta get that living will written. I don't want to end up lying in a hospital bed a vegetable and just exist if I have a choice. And the majority of the late term abortions that the fundies are so against are performed only on kids that have little to no chance of surviving outside the womb anyway. The only thing that allowing them to be born "naturally" does is prolong the agony as they die a horrible death anyway.

This topic is so ridiculous that I didn't deem it worthy of much of a response. After all, someone this stupid is beyond reasonable discourse, IMO. (Getting to be a disease around here, no?)

HOWEVER, humor is good for us. Good one, tmb! :D
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How about we value the life of the mother over a being that doesn't breathe air? It is a fundamental law that no state may be established within the boundaries of another state. How about a law that states that there cannot be a separate human being within another human being?

Anybody see South Park last night?

Jesthusth Christht


The Vatican is within the boundaries of Italy; there are one or two other countries within South Africa. There's no such "fundamental law," and therefore, the analogy doesn't hold up, even assuming it makes any sense at all to analogize between countries and humans.

I don't know why "breathing air" would be relevant, either. Seems a little result-oriented.

Sorry, wasn't clear that I was referring to the US.

Also, since fundies are always looking to show the similarities between fetus and adults, I thought I'd take a moment to show how one is not equal to the other.


The Vatican is within the boundaries of Italy; there are one or two other countries within South Africa. There's no such "fundamental law," and therefore, the analogy doesn't hold up, even assuming it makes any sense at all to analogize between countries and humans.

I don't know why "breathing air" would be relevant, either. Seems a little result-oriented.

I am finishing medical school and have seen hospitals full of what you people call 'vegetables" and have seen plenty of the suffering and death you speak of. I have watched as both of my grandparents have been ravaged by end stage dementia and Alzheimer's disease. I have watched people suffer and die, families suffer, and tears shed. Life is unfair.....but this unfairness builds character, turns people toward or away from God, teaches us how to love one another, shows us how precious life really is, and value the time that we or others do have. To decide who lives and who dies is to take what is not ours to take. Once people begin to dictate with that stolen authority you end up with a society that starts with the mercy killings in Weimar Germany and ends in the Nazi death camps. I was simply warning that when society experiments a little they can just as easily experiment alot.

I am finishing medical school and have seen hospitals full of what you people call 'vegetables" and have seen plenty of the suffering and death you speak of. I have watched as both of my grandparents have been ravaged by end stage dementia and Alzheimer's disease. I have watched people suffer and die, families suffer, and tears shed. Life is unfair.....but this unfairness builds character, turns people toward or away from God, teaches us how to love one another, shows us how precious life really is, and value the time that we or others do have. To decide who lives and who dies is to take what is not ours to take. Once people begin to dictate with that stolen authority you end up with a society that starts with the mercy killings in Weimar Germany and ends in the Nazi death camps. I was simply warning that when society experiments a little they can just as easily experiment alot.
Can I decide when I can die then? I don't want to end up like that. Can't say I agree with you. Builds character? Hogwash. I'll find other ways to build it other than through the suffering of the ones I love if I have anything to do with it. How exactly does bringing a severely damaged baby into the world knowing they will die a horrible death hours later instead of ending that suffering as quickly as possible contribute to anyone's character? Finally, I don't believe in your God so that argument doesn't do much for me either. If an omnipresent, omnipotent God were real he'd have to be the sickest SOB ever to allow people we love to suffer in order for us to learn something from it. Far from benevolent anyway.

Seems to me, and from what was written, the original poster made it sound like they were just killing children off in the Netherlands, which is actually not the case. They are reviewing their euthanasia laws to see if they want to include adding in terminally ill children, who can't make this decision on their own (babies).

They made it legal for assisted suicide if someone is terminally ill with no hope of recovery instead of letting them rot away until nature took its due course. Personally, like others have said on here, I'd rather go out like that. If I knew that I was going to die, and my quality if life degraded, take me out, please. Don't let me suffer and lie there.

Check out the link to the story on cnn.com.

You weren't telling the whole story, just your silly little interpretation of it.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/12/01/netherlands.mercykill/index.html

...You weren't telling the whole story, just your silly little interpretation of it.

Figures. :rolleyes: Why am I not surprised??

Figures. :rolleyes: Why am I not surprised??

I was surprised, when I found the original story, that this guy "made" it sound like they were putting children and others to death just for giggles. Then I found the original story, and lo and behold, it was about letting people die gracefully when they were terminally ill. What this had in relation to Hitler and the Nazi regime from WWII and previous to that; I really don't know? If the original poster is/was against assisted suicide, why not say that?

What this had in relation to Hitler and the Nazi regime from WWII and previous to that; I really don't know? ------- Acceptance of euthanasia in Weimar Germany paved the way for Nazi barbarism. see: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/FedererAuschwitz.shtml


that this guy "made" it sound like they were putting children and others to death just for giggles. -------- I made it quite clear that I was refering to euthanasia killing of elderly and now 'sick infants'. I never said that the killing was indiscriminant, but if you read up on Weimar Germany neither was theirs (also neither was Hitler's)

Seems to me that people on this board feel that they can justify murder as long as there is a reason....the fact about the slippery slope of euthanasia is that that reason can change. Just remember the first step is always the hardest!

Assisted suicide? Does the baby ask to be killed, does the baby want to be killed, does the baby deserve to be killed......I guess you all feel that you can answer those questions, but somehow I dont think you can.

What this had in relation to Hitler and the Nazi regime from WWII and previous to that; I really don't know? ------- Acceptance of euthanasia in Weimar Germany paved the way for Nazi barbarism. see: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/FedererAuschwitz.shtml


that this guy "made" it sound like they were putting children and others to death just for giggles. -------- I made it quite clear that I was refering to euthanasia killing of elderly and now 'sick infants'. I never said that the killing was indiscriminant, but if you read up on Weimar Germany neither was theirs (also neither was Hitler's)

Seems to me that people on this board feel that they can justify murder as long as there is a reason....the fact about the slippery slope of euthanasia is that that reason can change. Just remember the first step is always the hardest!

Assisted suicide? Does the baby ask to be killed, does the baby want to be killed, does the baby deserve to be killed......I guess you all feel that you can answer those questions, but somehow I dont think you can.

I guess the main question I have for you is did you actually READ the news article about the euthanasia laws that are currently in place in the Netherlands. If you did, you should re-read it, and if you didn't, you should read it.

From what I read and posted here, it's obvious to me that right now, they give the terminally ill ADULTS the choice as to whether or not they want to die peacefully and or gracefully, or die a horrible and prolonged death. This is the right of adults within that country.

What they are debating, and might be proposing, is that they give the same rights to terminally ill children. These are not just "sick" children, these are children and adults, who have no chance of a meaningful recovery, and or have no chance to live. They are TERMINALLY ill, which if you are in med school as you suggest, you'd know this means they are going to die. It's not like it's a healthy baby, or even a sick infant, this is a child who might be in severe pain and suffering.

Personally, and from what I've seen with my grandparents, the choice between dying a prolonged death, withering away to nothing, while my quality of life declines, I'd rather take the Kevorkian approach, and die peacefully rather than let myself be in pain and suffering for an extended time.

This isn't murder that they're talking about in the Netherlands, it is assisted suicide. There's a very distinct difference.

I'm not worried about Weimar Germany and or what they did. Hitler destroyed Jews and his enemies indiscriminantly, and it had nothing to do with euthanasia, but had everything to do with what or who he thought should be the master race. This was Hitler's final solution. And it was developed by his advisors and himself to rid themselves of the Jewish "problem".

jackstulip should be more worried about the facsist state that the U.S. has become.