I was in my LSB looking to buy a new bike, Fondriest or Orbea carbon. Thats when the told me about titianium. They made it seem as if was the be all end all.

They told me the following about titanium:
Does not fatigue
Better ride than steel
As stiff as aluminium

I understand carbon and aluminum, but I must confess that I know very little about titanium.

Does any one now about the reality of a titanium bicycle, life span, stiffness, ride quality. Can you compare ti to alu.

Thanks

In terms of ride quality, it think it's more about the design than the material. By that I mean there can be very stiff steel frames and very compliant aluminum frames depending on tube diameters and thicknesses.

Titanium does not fatigue. Moots even has a road frame with a rear shock but no hinge at the pivot point. The tubes just bend up and down.

I've got a Klein aluminum mountain bike and a Spectrum titanium road bike. It's not a fair comparison, but the Spectrum is a joy to ride. It feels like it has suspension when going over bumps, but it's rock solid and extremely stable. That's as it should be since the frame was custom made, with the tubes chosen for my weight and desired ride quality.

The Klein is a rain only bike. I have none of the joy while riding it that I do on the Spectrum, but it's heavy and comparatively uncomfortable. Even with a front shock, its ride is harsher than my road bike.

According to frame builder Tom Kellogg of Spectrum, nothing rides quite like steel. But steel has a finite life. He tells his customers that his steel frames will last about 25,000 miles. At about that point, there will be a change in how the bike feels. Something akin to the life going out of it. I bought a steel frame from him but haven't built it up yet, so I can't comment on his claim. His titanium frames should last forever.

Anyway, I absolutely love my titanium bike just the way owners of aluminum, carbon and steel frames love theirs. As long as the frame fits you and your style of riding (don't get racing geometry if you want comfort on long rides), any material will make you happy.

If the guys at the bike shop tell you one material is clearly superior to all the others, they're just salesmen. Don't believe the hype.

I was in my LSB looking to buy a new bike, Fondriest or Orbea carbon. Thats when the told me about titianium. They made it seem as if was the be all end all.

They told me the following about titanium:
Does not fatigue
Better ride than steel
As stiff as aluminium

I understand carbon and aluminum, but I must confess that I know very little about titanium.

Does any one now about the reality of a titanium bicycle, life span, stiffness, ride quality. Can you compare ti to alu.

Thanks

I have owned a Trek 2300, a Litspeed Tuscany, and a Seven Axiom. I currently own a Cervelo Soloist and a Klein Quantam compact. My favorite and best riding of all of them is the Klein. Even though it has only 105/Tiagra mix and the others were Ultegra or Dura-Ace! So the myth of harsh aluminum is just that, a myth.

Also my Seven broke almost in half in a very low speed crash so the indesctructiblity of titanium is also over rated my opinion. Don't get me wrong I am not against Titanium, my Litespeed was my second favorite bike out of all that I mentioned and a great bike,(it survived a 30 mph crash with only a scratch on the hood). I had 20,000 miles on it and it was great bike.

I guess this is my long winded way of saying I agree with the above poster completely. It is the way a bike is built not the material. Also speaking from experience fit is by far the most important thing.

the previous replies are right on, material is a starting point, frame design gives the finished product. another thing to ask yourself is,"what are YOU looking for in a frame". Personally, one of the best things about Ti is low maintenance. I spend alot of time racing/training, when I'm done, I don't like to spend alot of time baby-ing the frame. heck, most of them don't even have paint to scratch! won't rust like steel, dent as easily as aluminium, or be as succeptable(sp) to failure from scratches as carbon.

Thanks, for your help. My LBS suggested a Seven. And said that the bike would last forever (forever as I am concerned) and would have a life time warranty. Any wat he made it seem as if the Seven could even wash my dishes and do the lawn.

Could any one recommendation other custome frame builders that work in Ti, Alu, or Carbon?

Thanks again

Of all the bikes I've gotten rid of the one I miss most is a 2001 titanium Dean El Diente. Should have kept it.

...go Ti.

For a custom bike, I'd probably stay away from an aluminum bike due to durability issues. Is there anyone who makes custom bikes in carbon (since the mfg. process there lends itself more to mass production?).

If you're looking for outright performance in a custom bike, Ti is probably the best choice since it will take the edge off the bumps but is still plenty stiff for sprinting and keeping the power down over the bumps. My ~ 59 cm Ti bike comes in at ~ 17.5 lbs.in race trim, but I could probably get that down close to the 15 lbs. minimum if I was willing to go stupid light (replace by 1,500 gram Kysriums with 1,000 gram carbon wheels, lighter tires, carbon bars, swap Chorus components for Record.

Steel would still be an excellent choice though. Durability will not be as good, but my fitter told me that fit often changes over time so if you're only expecting to get 25,000 miles out of the frame, chances are it may not fit you at the end of that anyway. You're not going to to have as much "feel for the road" with steel as aluminum or Ti, but feeling every bump is not necessarily a good thing. I know lots of guys much better than me that ride steel. Also, when you're figuring how much more the steel bike will weigh than Ti, don't forget to take into account how much heavier your wallet will be with steel. :)

Serotta (www.serotta.com) is a well-known and reputable custom frame builder. They work in Ti and Steel. Read about their fit philosopy, it is different from Seven's.

Good Luck!!

steel has a finite life. He tells his customers that his steel frames will last about 25,000 miles. At about that point, there will be a change in how the bike feels. Something akin to the life going out of it.

Any metalurgist will tell you that the statement above is pure bunk. Steel AND Ti have essentially infinite fatigue life if you don't exceed the fatigue limit. A frame with very thin tubes, poorly mitered joints, and other questionable construction methods will run the risk of going flat, but that is an uncommon occurance in well-built frames. Steel's two limitations are weight and corrosion, not fatigue failure. I rode a steel bike for 90K miles over 16 years, and when I replaced it, I could not really feel any difference (old bike = Columbus SL tubes, new frame = Columbus SLX tubes). I rode the SLX bike 55K miles and when I replaced it with an LS Vortex, again I felt no differences that could possibly be attributable to metal fatigue. When I go to the Spectrum Cycles web site, I find no such claims.

I agree with the other posters. More stuff to think about.

Factors make rides vary. Tubes can be butted, shaped and tapered.
All this can drive you nuts! The good news is most of the better frames made today all ride great!

BTW, I am shocked to hear that steel "wears" out at 25,000 miles! I am sure it may not ride like new (when the paint is not shiny and new it looses what I call "look down factor"), but "wearing out", hmm... Does it get softer??? Maybe this could be considered, "breaking in"! Does it just not absorb the road or vibrate the same? I would like to hear a more specific answer on this one. I have old steel frames that still ride great. I think this is hype. Where do they get this from?
Ti is great I think it rides very nice. Remember, there are different grades of Ti.

I have ridden the newer Aluminum frames and they are nice too! Some even ride like a "worn out" steel bike! :)

Carbon rides nice as well. Personally it is not my thing though.

Another thing to keep in mind is the wheelset that is on the bike you are test riding will have a very large play on how the bike feels as you are pedaling it around.

I think fit and value are more important. Spend time looking for a bike you feel comfortable on that you can afford and you should be happy!

Not just bunk!

Pure bunk!!

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Lol! 4 times and then sum!
Thats a instant classic!

Yes, probably should have kept my mouth shut on that one as Tom told it to me during a casual conversation that may have had conditions I no longer recall. He certainly didn't say that the frame would fall apart, just that it would feel different.


Any metalurgist will tell you that the statement above is pure bunk. Steel AND Ti have essentially infinite fatigue life if you don't exceed the fatigue limit. A frame with very thin tubes, poorly mitered joints, and other questionable construction methods will run the risk of going flat, but that is an uncommon occurance in well-built frames. Steel's two limitations are weight and corrosion, not fatigue failure. I rode a steel bike for 90K miles over 16 years, and when I replaced it, I could not really feel any difference (old bike = Columbus SL tubes, new frame = Columbus SLX tubes). I rode the SLX bike 55K miles and when I replaced it with an LS Vortex, again I felt no differences that could possibly be attributable to metal fatigue. When I go to the Spectrum Cycles web site, I find no such claims.

Titanium is an excellent frame material and Seven is widely considered among the best of Ti frame builders. They are expensive though, and as others have mentioned there are plenty of great frames made from other materials, including the carbon frames you named in your original post. Try to test ride as many different frames as you can to get a feel for different materials and designs. Sevens I believe, are all custom, so you might not be able to test ride one that really fits you. Also, if you fit OK on a stock frame from another builder, it might not be worth the $$$ for a custom frame from Seven or anyone else.

What I found is that I could get a custom Spectrum for about the same, or even a little less than a stock Merlin. So, why not go custom?

Titanium is an excellent frame material and Seven is widely considered among the best of Ti frame builders. They are expensive though, and as others have mentioned there are plenty of great frames made from other materials, including the carbon frames you named in your original post. Try to test ride as many different frames as you can to get a feel for different materials and designs. Sevens I believe, are all custom, so you might not be able to test ride one that really fits you. Also, if you fit OK on a stock frame from another builder, it might not be worth the $$$ for a custom frame from Seven or anyone else.

Yes, probably should have kept my mouth shut on that one as Tom told it to me during a casual conversation that may have had conditions I no longer recall. He certainly didn't say that the frame would fall apart, just that it would feel different.

if it's true , it's one of the best kept secret of metallurgy and general physics. according to our present science, there's no reason for a steel frame to ride different after 25000 mile. a bicycle is made of three triangular forms. steel doesn't become anymore brittle with age. i could whisper in your ear that titanium will ride softer after 20000 miles and it would make more sense, since ti is more of an unknown factor in cycling than steel. but what do i know compared to tom kellog? though suddenly all my years in school on chemistry and physics class seem a waste of time.

After welding a Aluminium bike you have to heat treat it. I forget why, but one of you will. Does welding Al make it weaker and heat-treating helps to restore some of the original properties that the metal started with before it was welded?

Does Ti react the same way to welding as Al?

Are the "off the shelf" frames built for around a specific weight? Are there any that can take the day-to-day punishment of a 197 pound person?

Sorry for all of the questions, but bike now cost more than my first car! I want to make sure that I send my money wisely. This bike will be used for racing (non crits), training (this includes being put on the trainer), and just long fun rides.

I want something that is stiff, does not have a harsh ride, and durable. My current frame (Fondriest Madonna) flexes a bit in the bb area and creeks when I hammer. I keep thinking that the frame will break.

I've discovered the answer!!!

It's what you say to your wife to justify getting a new bike.

Must not have seen Tom winking, nudge, nudge.

if it's true , it's one of the best kept secret of metallurgy and general physics. according to our present science, there's no reason for a steel frame to ride different after 25000 mile. a bicycle is made of three triangular forms. steel doesn't become anymore brittle with age. i could whisper in your ear that titanium will ride softer after 20000 miles and it would make more sense, since ti is more of an unknown factor in cycling than steel. but what do i know compared to tom kellog? though suddenly all my years in school on chemistry and physics class seem a waste of time.

It's hard to imagine that your frame will break. Creaking could come from just about anywhere and not be a sign of trouble (though it's still annoying as all get out).

Titanium is much harder to weld than aluminum. It must be done totally isolated from air. I don't know if welding weakens it, but that is not a concern if it is done correctly.

Your question regarding the weight that a specific frame is made for is a good one. One would expect larger frames to be made with larger diameter tubes and perhaps thicker walls, but I don't know if manufacturers of stock frames publish numbers in any meaningful way for you to figure out which one would suit you best.

That's why, if you're sinking a ton of money into a frame, you might want to talk with a custom builder. They will select the tubing according to your weight and desired riding characteristics. If you want a jaw jarringly stiff ride, that can be done. If you want cushy comfort, no problem. Want a combination? That's where a custom builder's skill and experience will make all the difference.

I wanted a really comfortable ride and that's what I got. I couldn't tell you if the BB flexes a lot or not because I have no idea what that feels like. But if that were important to me, I'd make sure the builder knows it.

If you want custom, but don't want to pay absolute top dollar, there are builders who work with aluminum. Very thin walled aluminum would concern me, but any good builder should be able to make you a frame that feels great and lasts a really long time.


After welding a Aluminium bike you have to heat treat it. I forget why, but one of you will. Does welding Al make it weaker and heat-treating helps to restore some of the original properties that the metal started with before it was welded?

Does Ti react the same way to welding as Al?

Are the "off the shelf" frames built for around a specific weight? Are there any that can take the day-to-day punishment of a 197 pound person?

Sorry for all of the questions, but bike now cost more than my first car! I want to make sure that I send my money wisely. This bike will be used for racing (non crits), training (this includes being put on the trainer), and just long fun rides.

I want something that is stiff, does not have a harsh ride, and durable. My current frame (Fondriest Madonna) flexes a bit in the bb area and creeks when I hammer. I keep thinking that the frame will break.

I was in my LSB looking to buy a new bike, Fondriest or Orbea carbon. Thats when the told me about titianium. They made it seem as if was the be all end all.

They told me the following about titanium:
Does not fatigue
Better ride than steel
As stiff as aluminium

I understand carbon and aluminum, but I must confess that I know very little about titanium.

Does any one now about the reality of a titanium bicycle, life span, stiffness, ride quality. Can you compare ti to alu.

Thanks
Avoid a ti bike at all costs if you are married. After telling your wife how Ti will last forever and is worth the cost as it will save you money in the long run...blah,blah,blah
How on earth will you ever get a new bike again? Get a good Italian frame with the great paint. Its a work of art. You then have the option of buying a new bike to "protect" your work of art from the slings and arrows of .........!

For custom Ti there are many options;

Seven
Serotta
Independant Fabrications
Dean
Strong
etc...

+ Some of the 'bigger' guys will do custom also;

Litespeed
Merlin

Most of these manu's will do steel also.

For custom carbon your best bet would parlee cycles. Although note that a ti/carbon mix is also available from seven, serotta, If etc...

I own 2 custom sevens (one road one MTB) and have been very happy with both the quality of the frames and response from 7 during the custom process. Delivery times were short (10 days from signing to receiving a frame) and the fit excellent.

Thanks, for your help. My LBS suggested a Seven. And said that the bike would last forever (forever as I am concerned) and would have a life time warranty. Any wat he made it seem as if the Seven could even wash my dishes and do the lawn.

Could any one recommendation other custome frame builders that work in Ti, Alu, or Carbon?

Thanks again

For custom Ti there are many options;

Seven
Serotta
Independant Fabrications
Dean
Strong
etc...

+ Some of the 'bigger' guys will do custom also;

Litespeed
Merlin

Most of these manu's will do steel also.

For custom carbon your best bet would parlee cycles. Although note that a ti/carbon mix is also available from seven, serotta, If etc...

I own 2 custom sevens (one road one MTB) and have been very happy with both the quality of the frames and response from 7 during the custom process. Delivery times were short (10 days from signing to receiving a frame) and the fit excellent.


Dean is fine for a stock geometry frame, but I wouldn't suggest you go custom with Dean.