Just Built - My New Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel [Archive]

Len J

01-06-2005, 04:14 AM

Please don't take this as a criticism, because it is not intended that way.

What was the fitters thought process in designing the fit with 3 cm of spacers when it would have been easy enough to give you a longer headtube with adequate standover (due to the compact frame), by lengthening the seattube and potentially doing a slight headtube extension? I've noticed many fitters (including the one who did my origianl Legend BTW) go small on the frame and use spacers instead of compensating with frame height. I just don't get it.

Is it because you wanted the ability to lower the Handlebars over time?
Is it because he felt a smaller frame (vertically) is stiffer?

Honestly, that is a beautiful bike and based on what I know of IF I'm sure it rides wonderful. I'm really just trying to understand the thought process of the fitters.

Len

Jed Peters

01-06-2005, 06:34 AM

Honestly, that is a beautiful bike and based on what I know of IF I'm sure it rides wonderful. I'm really just trying to understand the thought process of the fitters.
Len

IF has really been building many many bikes that I've seen lately with too-short of headtubes. They do not appear to be taking into consideration this issue, and are shipping/fitting/building many bikes with a way too short headtube.

They shipped mine with a headtube that was smaller than my spec by 3cm as well. However, they built me a new one and let me return the too short one when the new one was built. Top notch customer service!

Len J

01-06-2005, 06:59 AM

IF has really been building many many bikes that I've seen lately with too-short of headtubes. They do not appear to be taking into consideration this issue, and are shipping/fitting/building many bikes with a way too short headtube.

They shipped mine with a headtube that was smaller than my spec by 3cm as well. However, they built me a new one and let me return the too short one when the new one was built. Top notch customer service!I've seen this repeatedly on custom bikes from most of the well known custom builders. I think some of the reasons are as follows:

1.) The racer bike mentality. I think many fitters/builders design their bikes around much more drop from seat to bars than most buyers will ever be comfortable with. Most of these are, after all "racer bikes" Builders have not caught up to the fact that most of their buyers are not, and will never be, and don't want to be, racers.

2.) The switch from threaded to threadless steerer tubes. If you took the bike above and but a threaded steerer and a Quill stem, it would be sized fine....it wouldn't look bad at all. When the switch from threaded to threadless occured, no compensation was made in headtube length for the change. Most of it is aestetics anyway.

3.) Some other reason, I don't understand related to the performance of the frame........which is why I asked the question.

I have two Serottas.......the only sizing difference between the two is that one has 2 CM of spac and the other ers with a -20 degree stem and the other has .5mm of spacers and a -16 degree stem. Setback, reach and drop to the bars is exactly the same. I accomplished the elimination of spacers by increasing the length of both the seat tube and the head tube by the appropriate amounts (I made the bike "taller" without making it longer). Both bikes handle wonderfully, I can't tell any difference in handling or responsivness arising from the change. I think the no spacer bike looks better without sacrificing anything that iI can detect. I'm really curious if I'm missing anything.

BTW, IF does have great service from what I've heard...great company.

Len

sallen

01-06-2005, 07:07 AM

Len J

01-06-2005, 07:20 AM

To be completely honest, the only thing that bothers me about the spacer stack/short head tube, is the look of it. And you know what? I didn't buy this bike to look good, I bought it to perform and fit well. I put the fit completely in IFs hands, since I am not a pro at fit yet, and I think they nailed it! It does exactly what I want it to and I couldn't be happier.

I'm sure there is ride difference in a taller head tube, I couldn't tell you what it is, since I haven't ridden this frame with a taller head tube. All I can say is that MY frame is GREAT for me.

A couple other things to note... The measurements for this bike were based on my mountain bike (since this is my first road bike in 3 years or so) that has a very large saddle to bar drop, maybe 4 inches. I'm also still toying with the drop to find out what is most comfortable to me (flipping the stem upside down, raising and lowering the stem in the stack). Its hard to tell what will work on the road when riding on a trainer. Better to keep the steerer to long than too short at this point and have the drop be too much! =)
You've left yourself flexibility to change as you ride more...that's smart.

As I said in a previous response, I can't tell any ride difference with a taller headtube.....but that's me, I may just not be sesitive enough, to each their own.

I learned alot from my first custom bike about what I wanted and what I liked and didn't like......I think that is part of the process. Sounds like that's what is happening for you......perfect. I still love riding the Bike i have with 2 CM of spacers. I certainly don't notice the spacers when I'm riding it. As you say, it's all about looks......somewhat shallow, but real nontheless.

You have a great bike there, I love the color, and I know they made it well.....enjoy it, learn what works for you, and ride the heck out of it. Congratulations on a great choice.

Len

Henry Chinaski

01-06-2005, 07:49 AM

I've seen this repeatedly on custom bikes from most of the well known custom builders. I think some of the reasons are as follows:

1.) The racer bike mentality. I think many fitters/builders design their bikes around much more drop from seat to bars than most buyers will ever be comfortable with. Most of these are, after all "racer bikes" Builders have not caught up to the fact that most of their buyers are not, and will never be, and don't want to be, racers.

2.) The switch from threaded to threadless steerer tubes. If you took the bike above and but a threaded steerer and a Quill stem, it would be sized fine....it wouldn't look bad at all. When the switch from threaded to threadless occured, no compensation was made in headtube length for the change. Most of it is aestetics anyway.

3.) Some other reason, I don't understand related to the performance of the frame........which is why I asked the question.

I have two Serottas.......the only sizing difference between the two is that one has 2 CM of spac and the other ers with a -20 degree stem and the other has .5mm of spacers and a -16 degree stem. Setback, reach and drop to the bars is exactly the same. I accomplished the elimination of spacers by increasing the length of both the seat tube and the head tube by the appropriate amounts (I made the bike "taller" without making it longer). Both bikes handle wonderfully, I can't tell any difference in handling or responsivness arising from the change. I think the no spacer bike looks better without sacrificing anything that iI can detect. I'm really curious if I'm missing anything.

BTW, IF does have great service from what I've heard...great company.

Len

Yeah, I was looking at IF's stock geometry and the head tubes seem very short. I have quite a bit of drop to my bars (a lot more than the bike above) but if I went with the stock IF frame that fit me I'd have a few spacers in there. Kind of weird. I don't see any "performance" issue, though--it's more of an aesthetic issue, and potentially an issue with the carbon steerers.

BTW, nice bike!

jh_on_the_cape

01-06-2005, 08:25 AM

wonderful choice of colors!
The look of the spacers would be improved with black spacers. The silver really draws the eye. it's a little ghetto for such a nice bike, but you can color them in with a black sharpie and it looks fine. carbon spacers, perhaps?

BikeWNC

01-06-2005, 08:52 AM

Yeah, I was looking at IF's stock geometry and the head tubes seem very short. I have quite a bit of drop to my bars (a lot more than the bike above) but if I went with the stock IF frame that fit me I'd have a few spacers in there. Kind of weird. I don't see any "performance" issue, though--it's more of an aesthetic issue, and potentially an issue with the carbon steerers.

BTW, nice bike!

IF will build the bike to whatever specs you want. My Ti CJ has a taller HT and the spacers have been mostly eliminated. I currently use one 5 mm spacer. When I change my pedals to the new Look Keos, then that spacer will come out.

BikeWNC

01-06-2005, 08:54 AM

Ooh, I forgot to say, NICE BIKE! I hope you enjoy yours as much as I do mine.

Henry Chinaski

01-06-2005, 08:58 AM

IF will build the bike to whatever specs you want. My Ti CJ has a taller HT and the spacers have been mostly eliminated. I currently use one 5 mm spacer. When I change my pedals to the new Look Keos, then that spacer will come out.

I realize that. It's just kind of weird that they start with such a short head tube as their starting/reference point.

BikeWNC

01-06-2005, 09:15 AM

I realize that. It's just kind of weird that they start with such a short head tube as their starting/reference point.

I don't know. The 60 cm Ti frame has a HT length of 195 mm. That seems pretty standard to me when used with a standard headset. The one difference I see in the IF geometry is their use of slightly slacker seat tube angles for any given frame size.

Second checking that number I see that the steel CJ has a HT length of 176 mm. I wonder why the difference in HT length in the steel and Ti geometry?

sallen

01-06-2005, 10:33 AM

Their stock frames fit me good.
I like the longer TT's.
I have a long torso and long arms.

I got fit at Crossroads in Los Gatos, CA. We did the best we could based on my current mtn bike. I haven't had a road bike for a few years, but started commuting to work and felt it was time for a road bike since the ride is about an hour each direction.

I'm just like you... longer torso, longer arms. This is fairly close to their standard compact geometry, with just a few tweaks.

C-40

01-07-2005, 09:02 AM

The head tubes seem pretty standard to me. The head tubes are nearly identical to Colnagos before last year's 7mm increase. The Colnago head tube length was the same for traditional lugged steel frames or CF frames (unitl last year). The 52cm c-c size, for example, will produce a total head tube and headset length of 150mm even with the shortest headset. That's what I used on my Colango with no spacers and an 84 degree stem to produce an 8cm saddle to bar height difference.

There really is no excuse for having a shorter than desired HT. Unless the fitter is an idiot, he should know off the top of his head what combination of HT, headset, spacer and stem angle is required to produce a given handlebar height.

A total length of 155mm with an 84 degree stem will produce a bar height of 88cm from the ground. It's a simple process to interpolate just about any desired height from this one set of figures.

Henry Chinaski

01-07-2005, 09:32 AM

The head tubes seem pretty standard to me. The head tubes are nearly identical to Colnagos before last year's 7mm increase. The 52cm c-c size will produce a total head tube and headset length of 150mm even with the shortest headset. That's what I used on my Colango with no spacers and an 84 degree stem to produce an 8cm saddle to bar height difference.

Maybe I'm off, but... I compared the 57 c-c IF numbers to my old 57 c-c lugged/quil bikes and tried to adjust for bb drop and STA (factors when comparing frames with horizontal tts), and it seems that basically IF made no concession/adjustment for these frames being now threadless, which seems odd to me. It seems that their headtubes on the 57 c-c are a bit shorter than many other 57 c-c bikes out there (and I'm not talking about ones designed around the newer integrated headsests). Seems like Serotta, Gunnar and others have adjusted their head tube lengths a bit when they switched from quil to threadless.

OnTheRivet

01-07-2005, 11:29 AM

And I am just not that flexible after years of stretching. When I went shopping for an off the peg race frame I took head tube length into consideration so I could get my bars up high enough without resorting to a bunch of spacers or a rise stem. I purchased a 58cm Titus that ended up being my favorite road frame ever. As an aside I have a Felt cross bike that needed spacers no matter what, luckily Felt sells their frames with a tapered 1" spacer setup that really cleans up that stacked spacer look. Does anybody know if someone makes those for sale seperatley?

colker1

01-07-2005, 02:03 PM

colker1

01-07-2005, 02:08 PM

Frogger

01-07-2005, 03:09 PM

I'm not sure what is Felt's "taper spacer setup", but Serotta and Aerolite makes 1" diameter titanium head tube extender. The head extender fit on the head tube effectively making the head tube longer/taller. Then the headset is installed to the tube extender. They help to eliminate/reduce spacers between headset and threadless stem.

Frogger

And I am just not that flexible after years of stretching. When I went shopping for an off the peg race frame I took head tube length into consideration so I could get my bars up high enough without resorting to a bunch of spacers or a rise stem. I purchased a 58cm Titus that ended up being my favorite road frame ever. As an aside I have a Felt cross bike that needed spacers no matter what, luckily Felt sells their frames with a tapered 1" spacer setup that really cleans up that stacked spacer look. Does anybody know if someone makes those for sale seperatley?

blurry

01-07-2005, 03:48 PM

hey i think i saw that bike in san diego, it was in a shop in hillcrest, was that yours? looked just like it. well anyhow very nice

sallen

01-07-2005, 03:58 PM

hey i think i saw that bike in san diego, it was in a shop in hillcrest, was that yours? looked just like it. well anyhow very nice

Nope... Wasn't my bike. Funny that it had a similar paint job. I thought no one would want these colors but me (besides eddy merckx). This frame should have only been in MA and the SF bay area. Anyway, thanks for the compliment!

sallen

01-07-2005, 04:02 PM

on a second look.. his stem is set way too high. i have mine 3in below my saddle height and i'm old, slow, tired, creakybla bla bla. a few yrs ago, i would be riding with 4 in diff. from saddle to bar. his headtube length is spot on...

Once I get some more miles on the bike, I will know where I want the stem. For now its where it is in the picture. My first ride, the stem was at a positive angle, that was too high, so I flipped it upside down. I am going to want to be VERY sure before I cut the steerer.

Also... look at the online IF catalog (www.ifbikes.com)... all the bikes pictured have at least 2 cm of spacers under the stem.

Jed Peters

01-07-2005, 07:33 PM

Also... look at the online IF catalog all the bikes pictured have at least 2 cm of spacers under the stem.

Hence my point about them making bikes with too short of headtubes.

sallen

01-07-2005, 07:47 PM

Hence my point about them making bikes with too short of headtubes.

Jed,

Do you have any experience that would tell you that this would affect anything other than aesthetics? I would love to know, just for my information.

Thanks.

peterpen

01-07-2005, 08:52 PM

While I have a similar knee-jerk aesthetic reaction to lots of spacers, it is interesting to note that many, if not most, professionals also use plenty of spacers. A quick glance through the newest Cycle Sport (lots of Molteni orange in there!) will show very few pro rigs with a stem face less than 1cm above the HT, which, given common stem angles, requires 1-3cm of spacers. I suspect this is because many started out with quill stems, but it would seem to contra-indicate any performance drawbacks.
Just because the pro's do it doesn't mean it's 'right,' but hey, if anyone is going to worry about performance, it should be them, right? I don't think Deda is pushing anyone to use more spacers, but maybe I'm naive. :rolleyes:
Anyway, regardless of any spacers vs. longer HT debate, that is one sweet ride! enjoy, and remember that no matter what kind of ride you post, someone will find a reason to dis it. :p

divve

01-08-2005, 03:54 AM

Hence my point about them making bikes with too short of headtubes.

I don't think catalog pictures should be taken too seriously. Their stock Crown Jewel for instance in 57 would be the closest fit for me, and comes with a 167mm head tube. Add the 31.4mm stack height of a CK HS and you have a total of 198.4mm of head tube. Reference that with what I normally ride including an 80deg. 120mm stem and the head tube of the their stock CJ is 3.4mm too long.

That's basically by the same amount their stock 57 is too large for me so a custom 56.5 would fit me nicely :)

Len J

01-08-2005, 06:00 AM

Jed,

Do you have any experience that would tell you that this would affect anything other than aesthetics? I would love to know, just for my information.

Thanks.
It is why I brought it up in the first place.

I can't detect any performance difference when I ride similar bikes, with similar tires, wheels, seat, position and reach where the only difference is the number of spacers, but I "Only" ride 5,000 miles/yr and never race.

I suspect, that for most(if not all of us) this is purly an aestetics issue. My legend, with 2 cm of spacers rides great, I never notice the spacers when I'm riding it, My Ottrott with .5 cm of spacers (and the exact same fit) rides great, I never notice the spacers when I'm riding it, but I do notice it when I look at the bikes, my eye is drawn to it. For me (and I can only speak for me and my choice in my bike) I have learned that I like a taller frame with less spacers. I'm sure It's shallow, but I am what I am. That being said, if someone wanted to give me your bike (assuming it fit) for a lang hard ride, I'd take it in a minute.

You have a beautiful, well functioning bike that has the flexibility over time to lower the seat to bar drop (if you want it to) as you gain flexibility. I say ride it, enjoy it, and as importantly, learn about what works for you realative to fit and aestetics. It will inform your next bike purchase..........and as great as that bike is, there will be another bike purchase.....there always is.

Len
.

divve

01-08-2005, 06:38 AM

It will depend on the fork steerer. Some become noticeably more flexible with a high spacer stack.

Jed Peters

01-08-2005, 10:47 AM

Jed,

Do you have any experience that would tell you that this would affect anything other than aesthetics? I would love to know, just for my information.

Thanks.

My IF felt sooooo much better with the longer headtube. The bike had more control, didn't feel at all like I was "pontooning" way away from the frame, and the bike was definately laterally stiffer, as there was not all that steerer to keep me "on top" of the frame instead of feeling connected to it.

It was a HUGE difference.

Jed Peters

01-08-2005, 10:48 AM

It will depend on the fork steerer. Some become noticeably more flexible with a high spacer stack.

Yeah, this was with the Ouzo Pro fork that IF uses.

sallen

01-08-2005, 02:40 PM

My IF felt sooooo much better with the longer headtube. The bike had more control, didn't feel at all like I was "pontooning" way away from the frame, and the bike was definately laterally stiffer, as there was not all that steerer to keep me "on top" of the frame instead of feeling connected to it.

It was a HUGE difference.

Thanks for the info... now i feel like a real idiot. I WAS really psyched about my bike.

Jed Peters

01-08-2005, 02:49 PM

Thanks for the info... now i feel like a real idiot. I WAS really psyched about my bike.

I actually TOTALLY being in your shoes, defending my bike...I was big time defensive, not wanting to be wrong.

Well, They went and basically just made the headtube longer, and sloped the top tube down. So essentially, I just had a more sloping TT. Doesn't look lame at all.

But I'll tell you this...with 1cm of spacers, I am MUCH happier in terms of how the bike handles.

Henry Chinaski

01-08-2005, 02:51 PM

Thanks for the info... now i feel like a real idiot. I WAS really psyched about my bike.

Don't sweat it. If you want to reduce the number of spacers just get a stem with more rise. No big deal. Unless it's causing problems with the carbon steerer, it really is only an aesthetic issue. There is almost no way to post a pic of a bike here without being murdered by the stem police. You're certainly not the first...

peterpen

01-08-2005, 03:50 PM

I submit the following exhibits:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/tech/?id=usps_stage3/CN-TDF04-Tech35_LA_trek
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/features/georgia04/CEB85F6664
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/features/roubaix/1/fassabortolo
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/worlds03/emrr/worldsbikes/JulichsPinarello
and finally
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2003/probikes/?id=PrinceLSNardello

I'd wager that if there was a real performance difference, these cats would have long head tubes on there, instead of a few spacers. While I'm sure Mr. Peters' race results will reflect the lateral superiority of long head tubes, I myself wouldn't lose any sleep over a few spacers. Doesn't seem to hold back the guys who ride these bikes. :rolleyes:

Len J

01-08-2005, 04:13 PM

Thanks for the info... now i feel like a real idiot. I WAS really psyched about my bike.
I'd not worry to much......I got into a discussion on another board about differences in bike handling with shorter or longer Head tubes with non other than the master himself, Richard Sachs, and he indicated that "my bicycle has 18mm of spacers and i like how it
looks. ". You have (smartly) left yourself adjustment as you get more flexible. I suspect that you will end up in the range Richard likes.......The important thing is Do you like it?

I'm sorry if my inadvertant personal quest to understand Head tube length difference effect on handling has caused people to take shots.......I certainly was not intending this. You started this thread excited by your bike. There is no reason not to continue to enjoy it. It's a great bike that many on this board would love to have.

Ride the hell out of it, play around with different Bar heights and find the one where your body is happy........once you find it, every bike you get from now on will be bought with that much more confidence.

Ride on.

Len

Jed Peters

01-08-2005, 04:37 PM

divve

01-08-2005, 04:42 PM

Show us some pictures of sprinters who really yank on those bars. Petacchi, Cipo, McEwen, Zabel, Freire, all have low stacks or none at all. See how easy you can prove the opposite through leaps in logic :)

colker1

01-08-2005, 04:51 PM

it's his first road bike and a custom IF at it! if there's any wrong here is this.. how do you fit someone w/ no road under?? how can you blame IF on this?. he is not used to drops and steady riding on them. i bet that bar will drop, the saddle will move back and that stem will grow 1 cm, maybe 2.. . that bar is almost level to the saddle!
btw... how do you flex a 1 1/8 steerer, even if carbon? i corner w/hips, i climb w/ legs.. i'm not pushing my bar that much to flex a steerer. maybe i'm too weak..

colker1

01-08-2005, 05:02 PM

peterpen

01-08-2005, 05:11 PM

Easy, killer. All of those bikes appear to me to have at least 20mm of spacers - Fancy Lance-y looks to have 30mm.
Of course, you can also look at other bikes and find people who have no spacers and 75 degree stems. I just don't think there is a right or wrong way to do it. If Sallen's bike had 2cm of spacers instead of 3 would it be 'right?'

FWIW, I find enlarged HT's perhaps even more aesthetically challenged than lots of spacers. They look a little dopey in a hammerhead shark sorta way - like it got built wrong the first time and somebody tried to fix it. Why not just have more slope to the top tube? Or a longer ST, with a correspondingly higher TT?
But to each his own.
Can't wait to throw my own new bike to the lions when I build it in a few weeks. :D

divve

01-09-2005, 02:21 AM

....just don't show up with this:

JTS628

01-09-2005, 08:05 AM

Thanks for the info... now i feel like a real idiot. I WAS really psyched about my bike.

I love the Internet. You have a custom fitted IF that you admit fits you to a T. You shouldn't let an offhand comment detract from your ownership experience.

For some reason stems and spacers seem to really get under people's skins. There was a post on the 'cross board from a guy whose bike shop insisted he have a long steerer and a mass of spacers because any stem was wasn't parallel to the ground was "wrong." And god forbid someone is so stupid as to have spacers on TOP of his/her stem. . .

It's your bike. It fits you and you like the ride. Enjoy it, don't extrapolate from others' experiences.

FWIW, I don't really care for the way "too few" spacers look.

jcthomasjr

01-11-2005, 07:56 AM

on a second look.. his stem is set way too high. i have mine 3in below my saddle height and i'm old, slow, tired, creakybla bla bla. a few yrs ago, i would be riding with 4 in diff. from saddle to bar. his headtube length is spot on...

Maybe his stem is set to where he wants it. ;) Your stem height has not relevance on where he has his positioned.

jcthomasjr

01-11-2005, 07:59 AM

Congratulations on the new bicycle. That is a very nice looking bike and I hope that it rides as well as it looks. I wish you many years of enjoyable riding and getting whatever you want out of cycling.

Cheers!

jcthomasjr

01-11-2005, 08:07 AM

Thanks for the info... now i feel like a real idiot. I WAS really psyched about my bike.

You should enjoy your bike and don't feel like an idiot. It is a very nice bike and should provide many miles of great riding. Don't get too wrapped up in what others think of your bike. Everybody has opinions on the way bikes should be built and designed but rarely is a bike perfect. You can tweek the setup whenever you want.

In your original post you sounded very optimistic and psyched about the ride. Let your thoughts dictate what you think about the sizing and setup. You can always purchase another bike one day after you have rode this one and got a taste for what the positives and negatives are after having rode it for a while. Just remember that when others size you or give you advice, it is just that, advice. You still have to go out and ride and trust your feeling because you are the one who will be turning the pedals and have to sit on your bike for however long your rides last. Just get out there and ride and enjoy it.

Indyfan

01-11-2005, 09:43 AM

Of course, my screen name should indicate that before you read anything else. I like the choice of colors too.

I wouldn't let anybody's comments on this board change how you feel about your bike. They are opinions, and like the old saying goes they are like a certain part of the anatomy, everyone has one.

I regularly fit people at the shop I work part-time at. And while I don't profess to be the ultimate bike-fit-specialist, I haven't had very many come back for another session (as long as the frame is the right size). I wouldn't make comment on your fit until I saw you riding the bike. As for the spacers on a custom fit, I think it's quite wise, considering the info you presented us with - you had been away from road bikes for a while in the land of MTB's. I would recommend setting you up with the max height your steerer tube would allow (in the case of an all carbon fork like the Ouzo Pro, 25MM). That way, once you've "adjusted" to riding your first roadie in a while, your position can be adjusted to what suits you and your riding.

Bottom line - as others have said - enjoy that beautiful bike. I certainly would. Let the "pros" argue your position all they want.

Bob