Not wishing to hijack MarkS's thread, I'll ask the question here: is racism dead? A generation, two generations, after police turned fire hoses on blacks in Birmingham and Selma, 40 years after J Edgar Hoover compiled a dossier on MLK waiting to pounce on him for being a commie revolutionary, white school children get warm and fuzzy with their black classmates over the nice preacher who made righteous speeches, and turned millions of his followers against rioting and violence, over--across the bridge!--to peaceful, turn-the-other-cheek, non-violent protest. And it worked!

Or did it? One observer said the other night on TV he couldn't reconcile himself with the fact that the US prison population is the largest of any country in history, and that one in five black men is now living, or will live when he gets out of prison, a life of a convicted felon.

Why are so many young black men doing drugs and breaking the law, not pulling up their bootstraps, and going out and getting an education or a job? Is racism still alive and well, just gone under the radar, and everyone in denial? Or are these youthful rebels acting out their hostility to an economic system that no longer has a place for them, if they were shut out of that system in the past?

Will the time come, when the decendants of the slaves that built America and gave it it's unique musical contribution to the world, and in turn, gave Americans of all races a spiritual identity unlike any other people, be embraced in a truly color blind America, with the respect and freedom MLK dreamed about, and sacrificed his short life to achieve?

Talk to me, baby. Let it all hang. Write down the truth, as you see it.

racism is alive and well. it's just hidden better.

Whites have evolved in general, and folks more or less get along, but there is an undercurrent of 'we did our part, now do yours' among the whites who worked for civil rights, helped get the laws passed, but find aspects of 21st Century black attitudes and culture tiresome. Gangs, drugs, unmarried baby girls having babies ... you want to say "Just STOP it."

I'm a liberal, worked for civil rights in the 60s, supported even the Black Panthers despite their Maoist tendency, and yet have nothing printable to say to some idiot apolitical gangsta with his his bad attitude and his bad music, crapping all over both MLK's dream and Motown (even worse sin).

I know, I know. Southron white racist. Bring in on, czar.

dunno why, but that just brought some lyrics from Patti Smith's Strange Messengers to mind:

History sends us such strange messengers
They come down through time
To embrace to enrage
And in their arms even stranger fruit
And they swing from the trees
With their vision in flames
Ropes of leather ropes of gold
Men knew it was wrong but they looked away
Messengers swinging from twisted rope
As they turned their necks to a bitter landscape

There has been a lot of positive change since MLK's day. But, there is a lot of racism still out there, too. Back in the day, I think that most people viewed the world as being white and black (like the televisions we were watching). Today's world has a lot more variations. There not only are a lot of other non-white ethnic groups coming into the mainstream of US life, there also will be an increasing number of people from mixed-race unions who will view themselves as having one foot in each camp (or maybe not a foot in either camp). And, there are recently arrived Africans in the US who come from a different historical experience than the African-American slave descendants that began the civil rights movement. I think that the future trend will be positive and I hope that 25 or 50 years from now people will seen that there has been continuing progress in race relations. But, the changes probably will come in unexpected ways and for every few steps forward there probably will be a step or two backwards, too.

I'll end with a story that I think illustrates where we have been, where we are and where we might be going: I know slightly an elderly white woman who was (and is) a member of what had been a racially exclusionary country club, which was the center of her social life. Her son married an African-American woman, much to her "disgust" (her word, not mine). She threatened to cut him out of the will, never to speak to him again, etc. Then he and his wife had children. The kids thawed the matriarch's frozen heart. She took the half-white, half-black children to the club and demanded that they be treated like every other member's progeny. As her grandchildren have grown and hit some glass walls and ceilings, this once racist matriarch has become a civil rights activist in her own way. Although her son and daughter-in-law never sought membership in the club, she now is putting up her oldest grandson, who now is an adult, for membership and has let every influential member of the club's governing body know that she expects him to be treated like every other "legacy member" and admitted without a hitch. And, she also has made it known that she would like to see some non-legacy African American members in the club, too.

Whites have evolved in general, and folks more or less get along, but there is an undercurrent of 'we did our part, now do yours' among the whites who worked for civil rights, helped get the laws passed, but find aspects of 21st Century black attitudes and culture tiresome. Gangs, drugs, unmarried baby girls having babies ... you want to say "Just STOP it."

I'm a liberal, worked for civil rights in the 60s, supported even the Black Panthers despite their Maoist tendency, and yet have nothing printable to say to some idiot apolitical gangsta with his his bad attitude and his bad music, crapping all over both MLK's dream and Motown (even worse sin).

I know, I know. Southron white racist. Bring in on, czar.

I have an old cycling buddy. He came over from India 15 years ago. He can't understand how African-Americans in Dallas, for example, are so hostile to Hispanics, Asians and Indian immigrants, who come into the country, work their way through college, start businesses, and make successes of themselves. This hostility causes the other groups to shun black neighborhoods, and the vicious cycle continues.

There's hope that once a black gets out of the "ghetto" mindset, he starts to feel better, and finds that most of the outside world accepts him as an equal. The black middle class has grown alot since the 60s, although there is still the tendency to segregate. The problem is, the under-class has also grown. That group of unemployable black men, the ex-felons, is psychologically becoming the "lumpen proletariat" Marx spent considerable energy defining, as the springboard for revolutionary fervor. All that's lacking is a dynamic leader. That's what spooked the white establishment about MLK, and indirectly ended up killing him.

These gangsta types are the bright ones who are here to collect their debt from whitey. That's the curse of slavery in America's past. My Indian friend can't relate to that. When his ancestors were "enslaved" by the British 100 years ago, they had a complex cultural identity to hang onto. Not so, American slaves. They had to invent identities as they go, and still are. Their past is what makes them different from any of the immigrant populations, including Africans.

It may never be finished. As long as there are any differences among groups of people, there will be prejudices. Nonetheless, we have come a long, long way.

Ideally, I'd like a color blind society, but groups of all colors are impeding this progress. It troubles, if not angers, some white people to see organizations like the NAACP, UNCF, (and many others: http://www.littleafrica.com/resources/organizations.htm ) continue to promote one race. It appears to be reverse racism (if racism is promoting one race over another, then it is). I think it becomes difficult for some people to strive to be color blind when this continues. It causes a "why bother" attitude.

I think you have a valid point Doug. Racism doesn't just have to be white vs black. It would be nice if we all just considered ourselves Americans instead of some hyphenated version of that.

It may never be finished. As long as there are any differences among groups of people, there will be prejudices. Nonetheless, we have come a long, long way.

Ideally, I'd like a color blind society, but groups of all colors are impeding this progress. It troubles, if not angers, some white people to see organizations like the NAACP, UNCF, (and many others: http://www.littleafrica.com/resources/organizations.htm ) continue to promote one race. It appears to be reverse racism (if racism is promoting one race over another, then it is). I think it becomes difficult for some people to strive to be color blind when this continues. It causes a "why bother" attitude.

Let me get this straight, your implication with your hyperlink is that organizations that call for black unity and professionalism are somehow the promoting reverse racism because after centuries of being called different, less than, unequal to, inferior, given no help, disenfranchised, scourged of their heritage etc. That they should just give up the organizations that give a fighting chance at equality?

I recognize that you often long for the bygone days of the 50's when we could keep our dirty secrets hidden behind curtains, but really, what chance in any climate do you give to a disenfranchised people when you try to limit and denegrate their attempts at fostering equality? I guess it would be better if blacks had to live in Black Bottom in Detroit again...good times I guess.

By the by the history of the NAACP is one of the most fascinating stories in our history it deserves respect not dismissal.

Let me get this straight, your implication with your hyperlink is that organizations that call for black unity and professionalism are somehow the promoting reverse racism because after centuries of being called different, less than, unequal to, inferior, given no help, disenfranchised, scourged of their heritage etc. That they should just give up the organizations that give a fighting chance at equality?

I recognize that you often long for the bygone days of the 50's when we could keep our dirty secrets hidden behind curtains, but really, what chance in any climate do you give to a disenfranchised people when you try to limit and denegrate their attempts at fostering equality? I guess it would be better if blacks had to live in Black Bottom in Detroit again...good times I guess.

By the by the history of the NAACP is one of the most fascinating stories in our history it deserves respect not dismissal.

littleafrica is devoted to promoting black capitalism, not whining and complaining and 'reverse racism.' They're good upwardly mobile colored folks, probably proto-Republicans if not out right Bushites. I think that was a bad link to choose.

Let me get this straight, your implication with your hyperlink is that organizations that call for black unity and professionalism are somehow the promoting reverse racism because after centuries of being called different, less than, unequal to, inferior, given no help, disenfranchised, scourged of their heritage etc. That they should just give up the organizations that give a fighting chance at equality?

I recognize that you often long for the bygone days of the 50's when we could keep our dirty secrets hidden behind curtains, but really, what chance in any climate do you give to a disenfranchised people when you try to limit and denegrate their attempts at fostering equality? I guess it would be better if blacks had to live in Black Bottom in Detroit again...good times I guess.

By the by the history of the NAACP is one of the most fascinating stories in our history it deserves respect not dismissal.

The point of my message and the link is that the mere existence of groups designed to promote one race, regardless of their goals, is racism itself and a factor in continuing racial friction. The link was there solely as a demonstration that there are many such groups.

Instead, why not have groups that promote racial equality or empowerment of *all* minoritiy groups instead of focusing on just one skin colored group? To me, that would preferable.

No, I long for no such days of the '50s, and your implication is offensive. I'd prefer a society that is 100 years advanced from where we are now, where race is not even an issue. Where some differ is how we get there. Denigrating those who would support equal rights and opportunities of every kind, like me, is not the way to get there. If you continue to do that, people like me will just say forget it, and people like you will lose many supporters who otherwise would have been allies.

The point of my message and the link is that the mere existence of groups designed to promote one race, regardless of their goals, is racism itself and a factor in continuing racial friction. The link was there solely as a demonstration that there are many such groups.

Instead, why not have groups that promote racial equality or empowerment of *all* minoritiy groups instead of focusing on just one skin colored group? To me, that would preferable.

No, I long for no such days of the '50s, and your implication is offensive. I'd prefer a society that is 100 years advanced from where we are now, where race is not even an issue. Where some differ is how we get there. Denigrating those who would support equal rights and opportunities of every kind, like me, is not the way to get there. If you continue to do that, people like me will just say forget it, and people like you will lose many supporters who otherwise would have been allies.

Sad that, after all these years, we need groups like this to motivate/help blacks to join the screwed up American middle class is just appalling. And I mean I'm appalled at the lack of progress and self-discipline in the black community itself. I agree with you in principle, but in this case the focus is properly where the need is greatest.

The point of my message and the link is that the mere existence of groups designed to promote one race, regardless of their goals, is racism itself and a factor in continuing racial friction. The link was there solely as a demonstration that there are many such groups.

Instead, why not have groups that promote racial equality or empowerment of *all* minoritiy groups instead of focusing on just one skin colored group? To me, that would preferable.

No, I long for no such days of the '50s, and your implication is offensive. I'd prefer a society that is 100 years advanced from where we are now, where race is not even an issue. Where some differ is how we get there. Denigrating those who would support equal rights and opportunities of every kind, like me, is not the way to get there. If you continue to do that, people like me will just say forget it, and people like you will lose many supporters who otherwise would have been allies.



Just wondering how many other "all" were held in servitude for hundreds of years and then systematically disenfranchised for another one hundred years. Wondering how many "all" were blighted for hundreds of years as being completely and totally inferior amounting to nothing more than servitude as being their "natural place?"

Are you angry that you can't have a White Lawyers association and get away with it. Does it boil down to sandbox analogy? Are you wanting to take your pale and go home?

You can deny the facts of our history and how bad it was and how bad it still is in many places in this country but don't say that denial is the same as colorblindedness.

littleafrica is devoted to promoting black capitalism, not whining and complaining and 'reverse racism.' They're good upwardly mobile colored folks, probably proto-Republicans if not out right Bushites. I think that was a bad link to choose.

Those NAACP meetings of well-dressed, disciplined pillars of their communities, are an exaggeration of politeness and respect. You won't find any radicals in that group.

The issue touches the affirmative action debate: non-"African-Americans" were crying foul about blacks getting preferential treatment with state owned college admissions, while their kids were not getting admitted. But affirmative action has arguably swelled the black middle class by leaps and bounds since the 60's, and that has significantly benefitted the society as a whole. Middle class whites can accept middle class blacks, who themselves want to shed their old habits grown up over generations of enforced poverty. They do everything the white society would expect of them, to a fault. So prejudice and discrimination can no longer be based on skin color, only on behavior patterns, economic or social class.

The more these self-help black institutions do to empower these basically handicapped people on the bottom, the less they're going to go after whitey for free handouts, and the less whitey is going to discriminate against them. If some of these groups receive government handouts, whitey really doesn't have the right to complain, because he hasn't been there. Affirmative action is a means to correct a wrong and it has worked.

I think we can all see progress on the front of overt racism. King was the right person at the right time to fight the racism of the early 20th century ilk. Today we deal with a more covert type and probably need a new kind of visionary. I say "we" because I think racism is harmful to all parties concerned.

This issue is sort of like the discussion of poverty and if it can be remedied. Truthfully, I don't know if a solution exists. On one hand I think racism will always be with us, but I also think we have an obligation to minimize it.

Just wondering how many other "all" were held in servitude for hundreds of years and then systematically disenfranchised for another one hundred years. Wondering how many "all" were blighted for hundreds of years as being completely and totally inferior amounting to nothing more than servitude as being their "natural place?"

Are you angry that you can't have a White Lawyers association and get away with it. Does it boil down to sandbox analogy? Are you wanting to take your pale and go home?

You can deny the facts of our history and how bad it was and how bad it still is in many places in this country but don't say that denial is the same as colorblindedness.

I want nothing like a white organization of any type.

I'm not denying any facts. I don't know why you would make any such accusation. Rather then denial, my belief is that there needs to be more progress toward racial neutrality, rather than fostering racial differences. Even if blacks have been discriminated against more than any other group for the last 300 years, I'm saying that the better way to solve the problem is not continuing to emphasize the differences, but instead promote equality and opportunities for all. Focus on all disenfranchised or poor, regardless of what atrocities were committed upon their ancestors.

To me, some attitudes such as yours appear to be motivated more by retribution and revenge, rather than equality and fairness; at least that's how it sounds. That doesn't help.

I think the implication that "Gangs, drugs, unmarried baby girls having babies", "idiot apolitical gangsta(s)" etc. is inextricably linked to Blacks or "black attitudes and culture" is itself tiresome and indeed racist. In my experience, these behaviors proliferate among people of all colors when they are subjected to a certain standard of living disproportionately suffered by Blacks in America.

That does not mean that I don't want to say "Just STOP it", mind you.

I want nothing like a white organization of any type.

I'm not denying any facts. I don't know why you would make any such accusation. Rather then denial, my belief is that there needs to be more progress toward racial neutrality, rather than fostering racial differences. Even if blacks have been discriminated against more than any other group for the last 300 years, I'm saying that the better way to solve the problem is not continuing to emphasize the differences, but instead promote equality and opportunities for all. Focus on all disenfranchised or poor, regardless of what atrocities were committed upon their ancestors.

To me, some attitudes such as yours appear to be motivated more by retribution and revenge, rather than equality and fairness; at least that's how it sounds. That doesn't help.

That's what whitey doesn't want to hear, and what drives him into his gated communities. That's what makes his blood run cold, when he hears cop killing lyrics on the rap stations, and sees the reports of drive-by shootings on the news. Fear has always been a root cause of racism. Right now, it's probably the main one.

To create equality and opportunites for all, we need to level the playing field. This means elevating economicallly disenfranchised blacks. I have yet to meet any, who, once relatively secure in a decent paying job, feels any sense of entitilement or wants any kind of preferential treatment based on his skin color. He wants to forget he's black. It's the have-nots who cry for help. They need it, and deserve it.