Okay, I know this topic has probably been debated ad nausea, but I?d like some input from experienced Seven and Moots riders. I would especially like to hear the opinions of those riders who have experience with both bikes.

I?m a 40-year-old roadie and am closing in on a ?dream frame?. The only problem is that I?ve narrowed down that dream to two frames. I am considering off-the-rack versions (not custom), standard geometry, of the Vamoots SL and Axiom SG. Here?s what I know:

Vamoots SL
Frame Size - 57.5
Effective TT -57
Seat Tube Angle - 73
Standover Height - 81.79
Material 6-4 Ti
Tubes: Reynold's Double Butted - Seamless
Weight: 2.7 lbs
Company Name: dorky
Mrktng Image: Beautiful Welds = Great Build Quality
Decals: hmmmmmmmm?
Geo Factor: Rocky Mountains - CO (Red State)
Sizzle Feature: welded seat post clamp
Company: Great Customer Svc & Approachable Reps
HT Badge: Alligator on a MTB
Build Quality: Phenomenal
Cost: ~$3K

Axiom SG
Frame Size - 57
Effective TT -57.3
Seat Tube Angle - 73
Standover Height - 82.70
Material 3-2.5 Ti
Tubes: Proprietary Butted - Seamless
Weight: 3.1 lbs
Company Name: cool
Mrktng Image: "yuppie poser types who read Outside Mag"
Decals: elegant w/ color
Geo Factor: New England - MA (Blue State)
Sizzle Feature: curved chain stays (s shaped)
Company: Borg mentality and snob appeal
HT Badge: laser cut "7"
Build Quality: Phenomenal
Cost: ~$2.7K

Please, let?s keep the discussion to these two frames?it was hard enough to get to these. Also, because I don?t have any freakishly odd body parts or proportions, at least that I?m aware of, I don?t see much value in going custom for me. Although, if I was considering custom, I feel Seven would be the best choice. Your observations, thoughts, opinions especially on the ride quality and advice are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Tough decision! I went with Moots over Seven, rode both (Compact Moots and wrongly sized Axiom, not a great road test) and didn't feel any difference between the two really, very short rides although I was offered the Moots for an extended period (Moots can send a built bike to your LSB on request). I didn't need custom although with a Seven it is included in the price, I suspect I would have end up with one of their signature sizes anyway. Honestly, one of the deciding factors for me, small detail as it is, was the seat post binder. I like the clean look on the Moots and the Seven in the shop had a huge monstrosity of a binder. The second factor was choice of dealers. I liked the people in the shop selling the Moots better than the ones selling the Seven. Third and maybe most important was the 6/4 Ti rather than the 3/2.5. I am sure there is little difference in ride between the two and very little in weight, but 6/4 is more expensive, so in my mind must be better (tounge firmly in cheek).
I think with both these frames you will get excellent reviews from anyone who has one. If you read the Serotta forum there are people there who have had both brands, perhaps they could give you a direct comparison. But really I think it all depends on some little detail that probably isn't important to most that sways your decision. I love the shopping experience, so take your time. I also considered Serotta, Litespeed, Merlin, Independent Fabrications, Tom Kellogg at Spectrum (but you said you had already narrowed your search). I also looked at Hampsten Moots, that may be a way to go if you like the Moots but want different decals.

Tough decision! I went with Moots over Seven, rode both (Compact Moots and wrongly sized Axiom, not a great road test) and didn't feel any difference between the two really, very short rides although I was offered the Moots for an extended period (Moots can send a built bike to your LSB on request). I didn't need custom although with a Seven it is included in the price, I suspect I would have end up with one of their signature sizes anyway. Honestly, one of the deciding factors for me, small detail as it is, was the seat post binder. I like the clean look on the Moots and the Seven in the shop had a huge monstrosity of a binder. The second factor was choice of dealers. I liked the people in the shop selling the Moots better than the ones selling the Seven. Third and maybe most important was the 6/4 Ti rather than the 3/2.5. I am sure there is little difference in ride between the two and very little in weight, but 6/4 is more expensive, so in my mind must be better (tounge firmly in cheek).
I think with both these frames you will get excellent reviews from anyone who has one. If you read the Serotta forum there are people there who have had both brands, perhaps they could give you a direct comparison. But really I think it all depends on some little detail that probably isn't important to most that sways your decision. I love the shopping experience, so take your time. I also considered Serotta, Litespeed, Merlin, Independent Fabrications, Tom Kellogg at Spectrum (but you said you had already narrowed your search). I also looked at Hampsten Moots, that may be a way to go if you like the Moots but want different decals.

I second the tough decision sentiments. I chose the Vamoots SL over the others, too. Really, my factors were;

1. Dealer issues, the Seven dealer's price was in the stratosphere and other than Custom Geometry, which I didn't need, I didn't want to pay for that feature. Really liked the Moots Dealer, known them for years and I got a discount!

2. I wanted 6/4 Ti because I was used to it from my Litespeed Vortex. Didn't NEED it, just wanted it.

3. Exclusivity...Seven's are almost common here and I wanted something different.

4. Looks, even thought both are cool, and pretty close in looks, I preferred the finish on the Moots.

5. Moots was available now and Seven I had to wait.

I would probably have been happy with either but I just can't wipe the smile off my face when I climb on the Moots! Everyone has something to say about it, too. I have 2 IF's and love those, too. But the Moots is......splendid!

Good luck either way. My dribble is only opinion, yours may vary.

Is the 6/4 ti really seamless? They used to roll and weld it. 6/4 seamless is very new and I was wondering who was using it.

I think it really comes down to which one you like. In reality there will be little performance or ride differences between these two bikes. The truth is you could get a frame for $1000 less that would ride just as nice. Close your eyes, picture yourself riding down the road on each bike. Picture yourself running into your friends and talking about your bike. Which one makes you feel better? That's the one to buy.

Is the 6/4 ti really seamless? They used to roll and weld it. 6/4 seamless is very new and I was wondering who was using it.

Seamless 6/4 tubes are available but only in certain diameters from Reynolds. That is why the seat and chainstays are 3/2.5. The only differences visually between the SL and Standard vamoots are the rear dropouts on the SL are slotted and the Standard Vamoots dropouts are solid, the main tubes are smaller in diameter on the SL and the tubes are not as smooth and silky on the SL as they are on the Standard.

I just finished the same (totally enjoyable) exercise . . . and ended up ordering the Moots Vamoots. My final two were Moots and Roark (http://www.roarkcycles.com/toc.html) (not trying to ignore your request. Just relating my process....).

I found it relatively easy to do the first-pass filtering:

- budget
- kind of riding I'm going to do
- Al/CF/Steel/Ti
- geometry

It became abundantly clear to me that all really serious criteria on which you would select a high-end frame were quite well satisfied once I got it down to, oh, about ten builders. At that point, I felt safe in using criteria like

- customer service experience when talking the builder
- reputation of--and experience with--the local dealer
- will I see myself coming and going everywhere
- what kind of look do I want to convey/who do I want drawn toward my bike
- have I ever had a chance to put my leg over an example of that builder's work
- aesthetics (It's really not that silly ;) )

And when that doesn't work, you say the name out loud 20 or 30 times. For me, I couldn't say "Seven" without picturing Brad Pitt. He's a fine looking fellow, to be sure, but not what I wanna be thinking about coming down Mount Palomar at 45mph.

"Moots," on the other hand, can serve as a mantra to me ("Moots, Moots, Moots, Moots" . . . try it!). It's a meaningless enough, monosyllabic word that I can chant to get me up the aforementioned Palomar (hopefully).

I really have to second the opinions you've received so far: we're in a fortunate place to be selecting from among the best bikes on the planet. I can't imagine there's a real dog in the bunch. At the end of the day, I suspect the concept of buying one of these two builders is just going to feel better to you than the other . . . and it will be tough to explain why.

Good luck!

When I think of moots I think of it as a MTN bike company for some reason, when I think about Seven I think of it as a road bike company. Just my 2 cents.

When I think of moots I think of it as a MTN bike company for some reason, when I think about Seven I think of it as a road bike company. Just my 2 cents.


Well my 2 cents is that they both make incredible Road, Mountain and Cross Bikes, you won't find better. I guess you'd need to ride a Vamoots and see how you like they way they ride and feel and then see if your feelings would still be swayed. It would be a compliment to have anyone compare any mode of two-wheel travel to a Moots Mountain Bike. I understand how you feel but to me it makes no difference really. Just ride baby....

I just bought a Moots Vamoots yesterday - store demo with a pretty decent discount.

I'd considered the big 3 fancy TI builders - Seven, Moots and Serotta. Like you, I don't need custom, a 57 or so will work just fine from any of them. I ruled Serotta out for 2 reasons, first I have no local dealer, and second, I think they're the most overpriced bikes on the planet. Frame cost is not painfully bad (compared to the other two,) but when you start adding $595 Ouzo Pros, well, I look elsewhere.

Which left me with the two you've chosen. Ruled out the SL immediately, again for cost reasons. While I am an amateur weight-weenie, $800 to take off 150g didn't make sense to me. That plus being a complete philistine when it comes to high end bikes and their mythical ride properties, I can't tell any difference between any of them. So, the 6/4 vs. 3/2 argument makes no difference to me. The extra cost for me would've been nothing more than the bragging rights associated with having SL on the top tube.

Now I'm down to the Axiom vs. the Compact/Vamoots. Well, now cost factors in. But I was still attracted to the Seven so I called them. The only dealer I have in town is one that will never se another dollar from me. The next closest is 450 miles to the north. Seven's response to a request for a signature frame was a chipper form letter to the effect of "Please keep checking our dealer registry regularly, we're expanding all the time." If they don't want my money, oh well.

Which left me with Moots. Really wanted a Compact as I like the looks of a sloping top tube. But then this Vamoots came along. Decision made.

What about the Davidson?

I have been doing alot of thinking.
I think I am going to get a Moots as well.
The frames are just so damn beautiful.

if it's a dream frame, get whichever floats your boat. it's fine if folks here vote one way or another but if you're forking over the dough who cares?

i think no matter which ti you get, most roadies will know it's a dream bike of some sort... that's just the way ti is. it's expensive compared to steel and aluminum. if you ride a moots/seven instead of a litespeed/airborne people just know you've got a lot of extra cash.

i just got my "dream" bike a merlin agilis with campy chorus just a few weeks ago off ebay ($2k). my gunnar roadie with 105/ultegra (also an ebay find $1k) is still my daily ride and i love it. i've put in thousands of miles already on it and it fits like a glove. the merlin is 2lbs lighter, climbs like anything... i love it and i feel damn fast on it. as long as my fitness stays up i won't feel too much like a poser. but i know it cost a lot but it was a present to myself.

let us know what you decide and how the first ride is!

john

Okay, I know this topic has probably been debated ad nausea, but I?d like some input from experienced Seven and Moots riders. I would especially like to hear the opinions of those riders who have experience with both bikes.

I?m a 40-year-old roadie and am closing in on a ?dream frame?. The only problem is that I?ve narrowed down that dream to two frames. I am considering off-the-rack versions (not custom), standard geometry, of the Vamoots SL and Axiom SG. Here?s what I know:

Vamoots SL
Frame Size - 57.5
Effective TT -57
Seat Tube Angle - 73
Standover Height - 81.79
Material 6-4 Ti
Tubes: Reynold's Double Butted - Seamless
Weight: 2.7 lbs
Company Name: dorky
Mrktng Image: Beautiful Welds = Great Build Quality
Decals: hmmmmmmmm?
Geo Factor: Rocky Mountains - CO (Red State)
Sizzle Feature: welded seat post clamp
Company: Great Customer Svc & Approachable Reps
HT Badge: Alligator on a MTB
Build Quality: Phenomenal
Cost: ~$3K

Axiom SG
Frame Size - 57
Effective TT -57.3
Seat Tube Angle - 73
Standover Height - 82.70
Material 3-2.5 Ti
Tubes: Proprietary Butted - Seamless
Weight: 3.1 lbs
Company Name: cool
Mrktng Image: "yuppie poser types who read Outside Mag"
Decals: elegant w/ color
Geo Factor: New England - MA (Blue State)
Sizzle Feature: curved chain stays (s shaped)
Company: Borg mentality and snob appeal
HT Badge: laser cut "7"
Build Quality: Phenomenal
Cost: ~$2.7K

Please, let?s keep the discussion to these two frames?it was hard enough to get to these. Also, because I don?t have any freakishly odd body parts or proportions, at least that I?m aware of, I don?t see much value in going custom for me. Although, if I was considering custom, I feel Seven would be the best choice. Your observations, thoughts, opinions especially on the ride quality and advice are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I've never really liked the "S" shape of the Seven's chain stays. Too bulky for my taste.

That Davidson will show up one of these days, I got tired of waiting and needed to buy something right now.

That great.

Can Anyone speak about the Roark. I am on the fence for a Moots/Merlin extralight/Roark with S&S couplings.
I called Roark who said that 80% of their bikes are made with couplings, and when they do it for you they set you up with everything you need, tools case etc... And of course they are fully custom. But you have to go to Indiana, and you don't have LBS support.
Moots will do the couplings, however, i am worried that their integrated seat clamp will get stripped from repeated disassembly and assembly. As well as, the custom build is thrown in with the cost of the couplings yet when my LBS got out a ruler and fitting sheet i was embarrassed to watch them fumble. In addition to the questionnaire from Moots which looked highly irrelevant. Seems like they just build the bike they want????
Merlin's Extralight just rode really nice... I don't know much about adding the couplings too them though...
Comments, thoughts advise please....
Thanks.

I just bought a Moots Vamoots yesterday - store demo with a pretty decent discount.

I'd considered the big 3 fancy TI builders - Seven, Moots and Serotta. Like you, I don't need custom, a 57 or so will work just fine from any of them. I ruled Serotta out for 2 reasons, first I have no local dealer, and second, I think they're the most overpriced bikes on the planet. Frame cost is not painfully bad (compared to the other two,) but when you start adding $595 Ouzo Pros, well, I look elsewhere.

Which left me with the two you've chosen. Ruled out the SL immediately, again for cost reasons. While I am an amateur weight-weenie, $800 to take off 150g didn't make sense to me. That plus being a complete philistine when it comes to high end bikes and their mythical ride properties, I can't tell any difference between any of them. So, the 6/4 vs. 3/2 argument makes no difference to me. The extra cost for me would've been nothing more than the bragging rights associated with having SL on the top tube.

Now I'm down to the Axiom vs. the Compact/Vamoots. Well, now cost factors in. But I was still attracted to the Seven so I called them. The only dealer I have in town is one that will never se another dollar from me. The next closest is 450 miles to the north. Seven's response to a request for a signature frame was a chipper form letter to the effect of "Please keep checking our dealer registry regularly, we're expanding all the time." If they don't want my money, oh well.

Which left me with Moots. Really wanted a Compact as I like the looks of a sloping top tube. But then this Vamoots came along. Decision made.


This post has the most logic. I considered getting a 7 Axion or Moots a few years ago, but went with a carbon instead. But between the Moots or 7, it would be a tough call. My next frame maybe one of the two. I think you have narrowed it down between two great frames, but I couldn't see myself paying extra to get the SL.

Hey fillmore, any thoughts on the last post/ comment?

I've seen a Roark, they look nice. They guy that owned it has a TT as well as his road bike.

Or, for the money, if you just need a stock geo, buy that particular frame used and then add S+S.

For example, I've got a small Merlin Agilis for sale, someone could buy it and have the S+S added and still come out $$$ ahead of starting new. But to do that you need to find the right size used frame.

A number of builders do retrofit: http://www.sandsmachine.com/fbplist.htm
Ti couplers have gotten real expensive this year though. But if you're looking at a S+S Roark...you've seen the price tag.

Check with some of the listed S+S builders who retrofit. Some will only do their own frames. But it seems you'd find someone who would do an existing frame they didn't build.

For another custom option, check out http://kenteriksen.com (Kent E, founder of Moots), he'll make you a sweet custom ti and can add the couplers.

- Anne

Can Anyone speak about the Roark. I am on the fence for a Moots/Merlin extralight/Roark with S&S couplings.
I called Roark who said that 80% of their bikes are made with couplings, and when they do it for you they set you up with everything you need, tools case etc... And of course they are fully custom. But you have to go to Indiana, and you don't have LBS support.
Moots will do the couplings, however, i am worried that their integrated seat clamp will get stripped from repeated disassembly and assembly. As well as, the custom build is thrown in with the cost of the couplings yet when my LBS got out a ruler and fitting sheet i was embarrassed to watch them fumble. In addition to the questionnaire from Moots which looked highly irrelevant. Seems like they just build the bike they want????
Merlin's Extralight just rode really nice... I don't know much about adding the couplings too them though...
Comments, thoughts advise please....
Thanks.

Kramer, you need to respect people's thread. Open your own, don't hijack. It's the third time.

I apologize, I was unaware of thread etiquite.
New found respect for all...

My two cents may not be worth much, I am a roadie and all my bikes are steel, I am thinking of getting a ti, since my twin brother has one.
The other day I was at a park in St George, UT and I say a lot of riders taking a break, I went and looked at all the set ups and frames, the best one I saw was the Moots, just looking the workmanship even looked better than the Seven. And, I like Seven, but Moots just seems to be a notch up.

My two cents may not be worth much, I am a roadie and all my bikes are steel, I am thinking of getting a ti, since my twin brother has one.
The other day I was at a park in St George, UT and I say a lot of riders taking a break, I went and looked at all the set ups and frames, the best one I saw was the Moots, just looking the workmanship even looked better than the Seven. And, I like Seven, but Moots just seems to be a notch up.

Yep, I'd agree. I've had 4 Ti Sevens, but when I saw my first Moots in person, wow! I'm now down to one Seven Ti and will be getting a new Moots!