http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1034711-1,00.html

Legislators possibly withholding funding for college campuses because they are teaching things they don't agree with?? Something like that. Read on, and comment as required.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1034711-1,00.html

Legislators possibly withholding funding for college campuses because they are teaching things they don't agree with?? Something like that. Read on, and comment as required.

I live in MN- where apparently conservative students are persecuted for their beliefs
:confused: :rolleyes:

Actually, the most conservative students are all home schooled ;)

I'm amused at this so-called "liberal bias." In college, I thought they were called "liberal arts" for a reason. ;)

BTW- is there such thing as a liberal economist? Or a liberal school of business?

I attended a private university where the faculty was clearly more liberal than the young republican coke head frat/sorority kid student body. Conservative? More like the off-spring of millionaires or trust-fund babies. I highly doubt the faculty liberalized anyone... and frankly, what is so wrong with being schooled by a bunch of agnostic communists? ;)


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I've used up my smilie quota for the month

BTW- is there such thing as a liberal economist? Or a liberal school of business?


I have a degree in economics from one of the schools in question, and I can tell you, there are plenty of liberal economists. Paul Krugman is just the tip of the iceberg. The top-level classes (all the small classes, beyond the intro stuff) for me were: Environmental Economics; The Economics of Inequality and Discrimination; Economics of the Public Sector; etc. etc.

Economics is not a knee-jerk right-wing field. In fact, it's sort of the liberal equivilent to studying business.

I have a degree in economics from one of the schools in question, and I can tell you, there are plenty of liberal economists. Paul Krugman is just the tip of the iceberg. The top-level classes (all the small classes, beyond the intro stuff) for me were: Environmental Economics; The Economics of Inequality and Discrimination; Economics of the Public Sector; etc. etc.

Economics is not a knee-jerk right-wing field. In fact, it's sort of the liberal equivilent to studying business.


Marx and Engels based much of their writing on scientific and verifiable economic inevitablity.

How much more left wing is there than that?

the young republican coke head frat/sorority kid student body. Conservative? More like the off-spring of millionaires or trust-fund babies.

Nice that you have such an open-minded view of a diverse student body. I'm sure all Republican students were like that.

So the right wing students get pissed because a professor does not agree with their world view and they complain. So now we need a law? Sure big government can solve this! Remember you can't flunk little johnny just because he doesn't believe in the holocaust or that there was any reason for any of the new deal programs or that all life wasn't created in six days. Besides what do those ivory tower types know about anything? Just because they have spent years researching a subject doesn't mean they know jack squat about it. Rush knows more about every subject ever conceived, that's why he's paid the big bucks.

So the right wing students get pissed because a professor does not agree with their world view and they complain. So now we need a law? Sure big government can solve this! Remember you can't flunk little johnny just because he doesn't believe in the holocaust or that there was any reason for any of the new deal programs or that all life wasn't created in six days. Besides what do those ivory tower types know about anything? Just because they have spent years researching a subject doesn't mean they know jack squat about it. Rush knows more about every subject ever conceived, that's why he's paid the big bucks.

I would argue that, except where the issue has direct relevance to the topic being studied, politics has no business in the classroom. And I can vouch for the fact that conservative students are made to feel uncomfortable at some universities. I had a Calculus 3 class that took a "field trip" to an anti-globalisation rally that was occurring on campus. If it were a PoliSci class, it may have been topical, but for Calculus? And when I complained to the department head, he told me that the Professor had the right to set the curriculum as he saw fit, and that the entire department had been cleared to take their classes to the rally. For math?

I am fundamentally opposed to curtailing academic freedom, but you should at least get to learn what you signed up for.

I would argue that, except where the issue has direct relevance to the topic being studied, politics has no business in the classroom. And I can vouch for the fact that conservative students are made to feel uncomfortable at some universities. I had a Calculus 3 class that took a "field trip" to an anti-globalisation rally that was occurring on campus. If it were a PoliSci class, it may have been topical, but for Calculus? And when I complained to the department head, he told me that the Professor had the right to set the curriculum as he saw fit, and that the entire department had been cleared to take their classes to the rally. For math?

I am fundamentally opposed to curtailing academic freedom, but you should at least get to learn what you signed up for.
I would agree that the example you cited shouldn't happen. What was the justification for attending the event given that the subject matter didn't seem to have anything to do with it?

I would agree that the example you cited shouldn't happen. What was the justification for attending the event given that the subject matter didn't seem to have anything to do with it?

It was an "important" thing to be involved in, because it was going to shape our lives for the next 60 years.

It was an "important" thing to be involved in, because it was going to shape our lives for the next 60 years.

Man, if it were that important, you'd think you would have just skipped class and gone on your own...

I was an engineering student, so pretty much, there isn't much you can do to politicize math and physics, at least I didn't think so before your post. That seems a little silly to me. And I'm a liberal. Although for me any good reason to skip out on calc is reason enough for me.

I would argue that, except where the issue has direct relevance to the topic being studied, politics has no business in the classroom.

I am fundamentally opposed to curtailing academic freedom, but you should at least get to learn what you signed up for.

I agree with you. I don't see where politics has anything to do with Calculus. But, sometimes the lines are hard to draw between what is relevant and what is not. This was a perennial issue when I was in law school. One of my classmates challenged our real property professor as to wisdom of private ownership of real property. The professor quickly put an end to the discussion by saying that the wisdom of private ownership was a given in the class and let's get to the law. However, another professor let a group of people interject political issues into every class discussion. My pet peeve was not that people were expressing views different than my own (I actually agreed with a lot of what they were saying), but that they were using up valuable class time on subjects far afield from what we were supposed to be learning.

It has been over 20 years since I last sat in a classroom as a student. From what I hear, classrooms have become more politically charged since my days in school. As long as students get what they sign up for -- like a Calculus class -- I don't worry about whatever else is thrown in. But, when the politics squeezes out the content of the course, then I have a problem.

I live in MN- where apparently conservative students are persecuted for their beliefs
:confused: :rolleyes:

Actually, the most conservative students are all home schooled ;)

I'm amused at this so-called "liberal bias." In college, I thought they were called "liberal arts" for a reason. ;)

BTW- is there such thing as a liberal economist? Or a liberal school of business?

I attended a private university where the faculty was clearly more liberal than the young republican coke head frat/sorority kid student body. Conservative? More like the off-spring of millionaires or trust-fund babies. I highly doubt the faculty liberalized anyone... and frankly, what is so wrong with being schooled by a bunch of agnostic communists? ;)


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I've used up my smilie quota for the month

Most profs are more interested in deparmental poltics than they are in "real" politics, and most students are more interested in getting laid and landing a good internship. Ah college...

So the right wing students get pissed because a professor does not agree with their world view and they complain. So now we need a law? Sure big government can solve this! Remember you can't flunk little johnny just because he doesn't believe in the holocaust or that there was any reason for any of the new deal programs or that all life wasn't created in six days. Besides what do those ivory tower types know about anything? Just because they have spent years researching a subject doesn't mean they know jack squat about it. Rush knows more about every subject ever conceived, that's why he's paid the big bucks.

Had to do with filtersweep's characterization of Republican students, not with their "persecution", as you put it. Diverse views ADD to knowledge, even conservative views. The problem is that those views are in the minority on campuses in the US and are often squelched by the majority. We don't need laws to regulate this. We just need responsible faculty members and adminstration.

Marx and Engels based much of their writing on scientific and verifiable economic inevitablity.

How much more left wing is there than that?

I consider them more philosophers or sociologists. They are hardly contemporary examples. I don't believe either were ever employed as an economist?

Nice that you have such an open-minded view of a diverse student body. I'm sure all Republican students were like that.

It wasn't a diverse student body- very WASPy- unbelieveable the amount of anti-semitism and racism (Jews and Blacks "couldn't" belong to regular frats or sororities- not that there were more than maybe 3% minorities or international students).

You are right- not all republican students were like that... I'm sure many people thought I was a rich privileged republican for even being there.

*Should* such a law be necessary?-I say no (why cant we get double underscore?)

But considering the extent to which certain (hmmm hmmm-)s will go to silence things that they see as 'un-patriotic'....I'd say yes it is necessary; fortunately with the anti-'frivolous' lawsuit law possibly getting passed Profs can't get sued for a few million for 'emotional damage' for saying that a students idea is not rationally founded (regardless of whether it was or wasn;t).

[QUOTE=MarkS]I agree with you. I don't see where politics has anything to do with Calculus.

You go to the big rally and then in a loud Count Dracula voice you say "Von libby commie, ah, ah, ah; two libby commies, ah, ah ,ah; three libby commies ah, ah, ah, and so on. See, perfectly suited for a math class.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1034711-1,00.html

Legislators possibly withholding funding for college campuses because they are teaching things they don't agree with?? Something like that. Read on, and comment as required.

What's absolutely fascinating about this topic right now is that it is cutting both ways with tremendous irony. Check out this article from todays Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/10/nyregion/10paddle.html?pagewanted=1

We have Larry Summers at Harvard; Ward Churchill at Colorado.

Actually, at CU right now, there are two instructers who have been dismissed, one of whom is claiming it is because he is too far right, the other because she is too far left. It seems that "academic freedom" only counts when everybody likes what they hear.

turns college to 'average median' with no extremists, no debate, no intellectual growth. no exchange of free and sometimes heated ideas.
it's all about turning the country into luke warm consumers. better serves the powers that be.

were economists and historians. The whole idea of communism is based on social and economic evolution from feudal states to democratic capitalism to... ?. They were following the emergence of the middle class in society and making predictions of the future based on the changing economic world. 'Here's where we were, here's where we are, this is maybe where we're heading'. why else would we have a book called "Das Kapital"? that's economics folks in a macro sense, not in that puny micro, how to make a buck quick that kids study nowadays.
it's amazing how so many on the right think they 'know' the far left and they've never actually read any of their writings. it's why I think their writing should be mandatory in schools. How are you supposed to have an intelligent debate if one side of the arguement is completely ignorant of the issues?

I agree with you. I don't see where politics has anything to do with Calculus. But, sometimes the lines are hard to draw between what is relevant and what is not. This was a perennial issue when I was in law school. One of my classmates challenged our real property professor as to wisdom of private ownership of real property. The professor quickly put an end to the discussion by saying that the wisdom of private ownership was a given in the class and let's get to the law. However, another professor let a group of people interject political issues into every class discussion. My pet peeve was not that people were expressing views different than my own (I actually agreed with a lot of what they were saying), but that they were using up valuable class time on subjects far afield from what we were supposed to be learning.

It has been over 20 years since I last sat in a classroom as a student. From what I hear, classrooms have become more politically charged since my days in school. As long as students get what they sign up for -- like a Calculus class -- I don't worry about whatever else is thrown in. But, when the politics squeezes out the content of the course, then I have a problem.

What you're describing sounds a lot like my high school Humanities course. It is run like a college course; it is very rigorous- heavy primary source readings and very discussion oriented during class. We generally have very in depth discussions about thoughts, ideas, concepts, and the like. Lately we have been focusing on Locke, Kant, Hume, Rousseau, and Berkely so the conversation will naturally have at least some political content, but there is one student who, regardless of the subject matter, seems to turn it to modern politics. This student is very intelligent and happens to hold a liberal viewpoint which, although I may not agree with, I respect him holding it. My issue with him is that he always seems to find a way to work in his hatred of Bush and Republicans into the conversation and steer us away from the desired discussion. Since Day One of class he has been interjecting everything- Socrates to Thomas Aquinas to Dante to Milton- with his intentionally incendiary and antagonistic comments on modern politics which always seems to sidetrack our discussion for at least a few minutes. I just think that there is a time and place for political discussion and a classroom where a discussion of a different topic is taking place is neither that time nor that place.

and you have Grateful Dead avatars. Jerry has to be rolling. When you study such folks it is easy to see how much of what is going on presently is in direct contrast to some of the enlightened thinkers you are reading. I can see where it raises someones ire. Be glad you have such a cool class in high school. engage him in debate, force him to connect his bile to the lesson, make him articulate the connections and have an intelligent discussion / debate. Sounds like a great class.

and you have Grateful Dead avatars. Jerry has to be rolling. When you study such folks it is easy to see how much of what is going on presently is in direct contrast to some of the enlightened thinkers you are reading. I can see where it raises someones ire. Be glad you have such a cool class in high school. engage him in debate, force him to connect his bile to the lesson, make him articulate the connections and have an intelligent discussion / debate. Sounds like a great class.

I'm really not a Conservative by the definition we see in politics today, I'm really not spoken for by either party. I have some ideals and thoughts, but they don't really line up with much of modern political partisanship as we see in action today.

It's not what this kid is saying, I have no problem with that, it's the way he says it that bothers me. It's clearly trying to get a rise out of people and that bothers me. He's not trying to have a legitimate discussion, I think he would do well with that, he's just trying to get some of the more Conservative members of my classroom a little riled up. I enjoy some real political debate, not pointless sniping across a class room.

The class really is amazing as are the teachers. I'm really lucky ot be taking it. It really is crazy to see how much these men influenced the formation and founders of our society and how far we are from what they envisioned. I can't wait for college so I can study it more in-depth and maybe someday go out in the world and make some changes or come up with some new theory of politics. It's funny how against political parties that Rousseau and many of our founding fathers were and how tied up in them we all are now.

It's not what this kid is saying, I have no problem with that, it's the way he says it that bothers me. It's clearly trying to get a rise out of people and that bothers me. He's not trying to have a legitimate discussion, I think he would do well with that, he's just trying to get some of the more Conservative members of my classroom a little riled up. I enjoy some real political debate, not pointless sniping across a class room.

.

You will just love it on RBR then we never snipe. As Bill O'reilly likes to say this a "no snipe zone."

I'm really not a Conservative by the definition we see in politics today, I'm really not spoken for by either party. I have some ideals and thoughts, but they don't really line up with much of modern political partisanship as we see in action today.

It's not what this kid is saying, I have no problem with that, it's the way he says it that bothers me. It's clearly trying to get a rise out of people and that bothers me. He's not trying to have a legitimate discussion, I think he would do well with that, he's just trying to get some of the more Conservative members of my classroom a little riled up. I enjoy some real political debate, not pointless sniping across a class room.

The class really is amazing as are the teachers. I'm really lucky ot be taking it. It really is crazy to see how much these men influenced the formation and founders of our society and how far we are from what they envisioned. I can't wait for college so I can study it more in-depth and maybe someday go out in the world and make some changes or come up with some new theory of politics. It's funny how against political parties that Rousseau and many of our founding fathers were and how tied up in them we all are now.

i warn you join our movement now. those who wont take a side will be the first to be marginalized. sit on the fringes at your own peril!