I vowed to myself to never enter any discussions on this board. Too much like little old ladies discussing National Enquirer articles. But , alas, I caved in...

So is it beyond the realm of possiblity that Boonen might have learned a few more tricks, other than how to ride the classics, from the Lion of Flanders? I wouldn't be surprised if he did. He's still a great racer, either way.

I vowed to myself to never enter any discussions on this board. Too much like little old ladies discussing National Enquirer articles. But , alas, I caved in...

So is it beyond the realm of possiblity that Boonen might have learned a few more tricks, other than how to ride the classics, from the Lion of Flanders? I wouldn't be surprised if he did. He's still a great racer, either way.

Of course it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Boonen dopes, and FWIW it's not the riders who know how to dope it is the MDs, Vets, and soigneurs who know how to do it and not get caught.

And furthermore, if you pay attention, you'll notice that it was the same soigneur's arms that Boonen was wrapped in shedding his tears of joy today as Museeuw was crying tears of disappointment in last year when he had that disastrous flat taking him out of the lead group in Paris-Roubaix in the final 10k.

Of course it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Boonen dopes, and FWIW it's not the riders who know how to dope it is the MDs, Vets, and soigneurs who know how to do it and not get caught.

And furthermore, if you pay attention, you'll notice that it was the same soigneur's arms that Boonen was wrapped in shedding his tears of joy today as Museeuw was crying tears of disappointment in last year when he had that disastrous flat taking him out of the lead group in Paris-Roubaix in the final 10k.

Hopefully, he is riding clean. I imagine the pressure on all of the Belgian riders is tremendous... the papers were all over them last year when Wesemann won while there were two Belgians with him. It is almost like having the Philly press on you all of the time for every race that the Belgians fail to win, especially in Belgium.

If you win, you're a doper. PERIOD!

francois

[QUOTE=francois]If you win, you're a doper. PERIOD!

[QUOTE=francois]If you win, you're a doper. PERIOD!

This is how it is today. While I have serious disdain and hatred of dopers far and wide, if they haven't been busted, they're not dopers in my opinion. I believe in facts, and evidence. Just because someone wins a few races, it must mean he's doping right? Well, if he doesn't test positive for anything, as far as I'm concerned, he's good to go. As soon as someone does test positive, I'll spit venom at them forever. Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.

Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.

Yeah but data exists other than merely testing positive or else we'd have to give Pantani, Museeuw, Millar, Virenque, Zulle, Brochard, Dufaux, Gotti, Jeanson etc. the benefit of the doubt and say they were riding clean. Of course several of those admitted to doping but several of them never failed a drug test and never admitted anything but almost without a doubt were doping.

Yeah but data exists other than merely testing positive or else we'd have to give Pantani, Museeuw, Millar, Virenque, Zulle, Brochard, Dufaux, Gotti, Jeanson etc. the benefit of the doubt and say they were riding clean. Of course several of those admitted to doping but several of them never failed a drug test and never admitted anything but almost without a doubt were doping.

I don't consider some of those people dopers, as they were never sanctioned for doping offenses. Millar was, he admitted his doping use, and was fired. Virenque admitted it later, and was fired as well. Jeanson never tested positive and never admitted anything. Do I think they are all riding clean?? Probably not, but call it a willful suspension of disbelief. I like to watch cycling, and watch the races. When someone gets popped and fired, I say good riddance and move on with it.

You could also add to the list you have above then, Armstrong, Merckx, Anquetil, Hinnault, Lemond, and so on and so forth. You might as well just list out the entire pro peloton past and present, because once again, without proof and evidence, what do you have? Nothing but false accusations and alleged behavior.

I don't consider some of those people dopers, as they were never sanctioned for doping offenses. Millar was, he admitted his doping use, and was fired. Virenque admitted it later, and was fired as well. Jeanson never tested positive and never admitted anything. Do I think they are all riding clean?? Probably not, but call it a willful suspension of disbelief. I like to watch cycling, and watch the races. When someone gets popped and fired, I say good riddance and move on with it.

You could also add to the list you have above then, Armstrong, Merckx, Anquetil, Hinnault, Lemond, and so on and so forth. You might as well just list out the entire pro peloton past and present, because once again, without proof and evidence, what do you have? Nothing but false accusations and alleged behavior.

I agree (with the intent, not content)

1 spectacular exception: Virenque.

He is a father, admitted doping on his own, (despite the MINOR scandal at that time) and oh yeah NEVER tested positive. BONUS he even got weepy and looked mournfully at the cameras as he wondered what would happen to his body and the future with his family.....

NEVER MIND that he is cheered while WINNING Ventoux in 2002 and the KOM I believe in 04?

yes, We all have opinions. :rolleyes:

I don't consider some of those people dopers, as they were never sanctioned for doping offenses.

Pantani - Crashed, messed up his leg, and had his hematocrit was measured at 55. In '99 he was tossed from the Giro with a hematocrit of 52.

Museeuw - Suspended for two years when his SMS messages talking about NESP were discovered.

Millar - Ratted out by Gaumont. Confessed.

Virenque - Festina. Confessed.

Zulle - Festina. Confessed.

Brochard - Festina. Confessed.

Dufaux - Festina. Ratted out by Voet. Confessed I think.

Gotti - Dr. Ferrari's siezed medical dossiers showed him with a hematocrit of 58 when he was on the infamous Gewiss team.

Jeanson - Decided it would be best to not take a dope test. Surely innocent

Hey, don't be dissin' my man Virenque. He always won with style.

a guy such as yourself with such a history of anti doping can't be a Virenque fan without a huge dosage of shall we say Cognitive Dissonance.

I vowed to myself to never enter any discussions on this board. Too much like little old ladies discussing National Enquirer articles. But , alas, I caved in...

So is it beyond the realm of possiblity that Boonen might have learned a few more tricks, other than how to ride the classics, from the Lion of Flanders? I wouldn't be surprised if he did. He's still a great racer, either way.


It is just a matter of time. Riders in the NRC are getting nailed. It seems like every week someone new in the UCI is getting hit. I think it is just a matter of time until they all get caught.

Huge Virenque fan. Also Pantani, Chiappucci, and Hampsten. Only one of the four wasn't doping.

everytime you point a finger (Armstrong)
there are 3 pointing back at you
(Virenque, Pantani, Chiapucci)

this really kills your credibility you realize. since 2 of your faves (marco and richard)
had their careers overshadowed by the man you hate, all your claiming comes off as sour grapes from a very sore loser.

FYI - I liked Marco (my glass house, why I avoid throwing stones)
agree with Van Impe and the Eagle about Virenque. Not a true climber and made the battle for the Polka Dot far more boring than Lance's Domination of the Yellow.

this really kills your credibility you realize

There he goes again, practicing psychoanalysis over the Internet without a license. After the blatant malpractice shown with your analysis of BG's motives I thought you would have taken down your shingle by now.

Grow out of your black and white view of doping and realize the whole sport is dirty. Then you won't feel so bad when riders get popped. I've never used the word "cheat" when referring to doping because I don't feel that it fits the situation. It doesn't detract from the riders' accomplishments when the rest of the contenders are also doping.

If your anti-French bias made it impossible to enjoy Virenque's solo victories in pursuit of the KOM title, you missed out on some great racing.

I'm aware of the problems in the peloton. I throw no stones until rider is convicted, sorry it's a justice thing for me. Like I said loved Pantani regardless of his faults.

as for Virenque not anti-French. watching him on a one day escape, getting enough pts to take the KOM and losing 20 minutes never impressed me much.

Lucien Van Impe said it best, and I paraphrase "when I went or the eagle went, no one stayed with us, not Merckx, not Gimondi, no one, Virenque escaps with 4 guys on his wheel and the next day he is done, no true climber loses 20 minutes on a Mtn stage"

there's been plenty of French riders I have liked and like (Voekler the newest) but Virenque and the rules made the KOM laughable and boring.

The KOM contest is not a contest to see who is the best climber. It is a game. It has a set of rules and the racer who scores the most points under those rules wins. It's designed to make the race more interesting by giving fans something to watch other than the G.C. If you wanted to award the best climber in the race then LA would have one four out the last five and Mayo would have won one.

If you want to judge current riders by the standards of history, then none of them are going to fare very well. Different eras. Is Binda going to climb out of the grave and start dissing Mario's Giro record?

Totally putting aside the seven KOM titles, Virenque has the best set of heroic stage victories of anyone in the last decade.

What is it with Virenque that enrages Americans? Has Bush linked him with with Sadam and Osama?

Yeah sure . . . win a significant race and get slaped with the "DOPER" label.

Hey! I'm a doper! Sure! Now maybe I can start winning some significant races?

:D :D :D

The KOM contest is not a contest to see who is the best climber. It is a game. It has a set of rules and the racer who scores the most points under those rules wins. It's designed to make the race more interesting by giving fans something to watch other than the G.C. If you wanted to award the best climber in the race then LA would have one four out the last five and Mayo would have won one.

If you want to judge current riders by the standards of history, then none of them are going to fare very well. Different eras. Is Binda going to climb out of the grave and start dissing Mario's Giro record?

Totally putting aside the seven KOM titles, Virenque has the best set of heroic stage victories of anyone in the last decade.

What is it with Virenque that enrages Americans? Has Bush linked him with with Sadam and Osama?

Its that finger he kisses when he wins a stage. I have fantasies of breaking that finger off of his hand, strapping it on my waist as a phallus and use it to hump a hole in that thin puny skull of his. GOD I HATE THAT MAN. Virenque, that is, personally, I dont give a toss for George either.

If you have any strong feelings for or against a racer ATP will label you a "homer" or a "super hater". Apparently we are all supposed to be like him, the anti-tifosi, who loves his fellow man equally and has no passion for the sport.

You could also add to the list you have above then, Armstrong, Merckx, Anquetil, Hinnault, Lemond, and so on and so forth.
But Merckx did fail a drug test and was sanctioned (1969 Giro), so he meets your standard.

As to Anquetil, in 1966 he admitted drug use, saying, "You think you can race Bordeaux-Paris on mineral water? ... You go crazy, you're doped to the eyeballs." On another occasion he said, "Everyone's doing it, no exceptions." When doping tests were instituted, Anquetil refused to participate and led a protest against the Tour's demanding a urine sample from Poulidor. [Quotations from Graeme Fife, "Tour de France," p. 166]

but not to the level that I'll slam and slander a rider I dislike. I could never get behind Mapei even though I'm a Belgiaphile, I could never get over their kits and riding Colnago's for most part in my area is the bastion of Rich Fred's. I was a huge Museeuw fan regardless, just had an easier time after the split. I didn't love Lemond but I'll go to my grave thinking Hinault (whom I also like) is a welcher. Doesn't diminish my respect for ther Badger as a rider. Now if you came on the site and said I hate Armstrong cause he's an arrogant pr!ck, I'd be okay, but to say "He's on drugs" would be akin to me screamiong Boonen is on drugs cause he beat Magnus Backstedt at P-R. Would be especially lame if I had a long list of convicted druggies in my stable of 'heroes'.
I'm still trying to remember a huge Virenque win. Nobody in real GC hopes pays any attention to him, they let him go as he loses 20 the following day. So he beats a bunch of so-sos for one stage, where's the drama in that? Pantani's drubbing of Ullrich was drama, LA's drumming of everybody after the mussette was drama, please help me remember one of Virenque's Heroic victories. last one I can think of is where he broke his promise to Axel Merckx.

Huge Virenque fan. Also Pantani, Chiappucci, and Hampsten. Only one of the four wasn't doping.

I love all four of these guys. Yeah, Chiappucci would never resort to doping.

Virenque looked especially stylish when he won in that bright Polti jersey. He also looked good in Yellow in '04.

So what do you think about Mr. 60%? Alot of riders seem to be meeing with success after joining CSC. Say, didn't Tyler ride for Riis?

I don't care if Genevieve Jeanson dopes. I saw her in AZ at Valley of the Sun in February and she has a dang nice body.

If you win, you're a doper. PERIOD!

francois

That sums up the mentality in this forum. :rolleyes: