A Female club member went to local LBS and was told she needed a custom bike. The LBS told her that the only custom builder available was Serotta. The measured sized her up to purchase a Serotta Colorada with rear carbon seat stay. She is 5'2'' tall, her inseam is 28 (they didn't give her numbers). They suggested a 650cm wheel. She deposited $2000 for the bike.

The LBS called back later and said a carbon rear stay is not available because it would cause severe toe overlap. Her options per Serotta are to upgrade to a Titanium Bike or downgrade to all Steel. Her current bike is an all steel Lemond. She prefers not to go back to all steel.

Would it be wrong to request a refund so she can consult other custom builders?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanx,

If she doesn't want an all steel or titanium bike, she should request and expect a refund. There's no reason for her not to get it; the deposit was for a rear carbon bike and Serotta can't deliver that.

But I can't understand "The LBS called back later and said a carbon rear stay is not available because it would cause severe toe overlap." Something doesn't seem right. What's the connection between rear triangle construction and toe overlap? Does this make any sense to anybody?

A Female club member went to local LBS and was told she needed a custom bike. The LBS told her that the only custom builder available was Serotta.


I'd be a little dubious on both counts. There are plenty o' WSD models available now that come in small sizes like that, and there are TONS of custom builders besides Serrotta. I would definitely get the deposit back and go elsewhere. Something sounds fishy about that LBS - either that or they're a little ignorant

I echo all the sentiments expressed above.

Even with my very limited experience riding experience, the toe overlap explanation didn't make sense to me either. I've asked her to shop around, but she is afraid to offend the LBS owner. She feels she could never go in the shop again if she asks for her money back.

I got the Serotta fitting at a shop not really intending to buy a Serotta but go with another builder. The folks who fit me gave me all the numbers. Odd this store did not give your friend this information, even stranger if she paid for the fitting.

With this many danger signs it is time to go elsewhere.

She feels she could never go in the shop again if she asks for her money back.

Personally, I'd be uncomfortable dealing with an LBS where I felt that way. If your friend is willing to pony up thousands of dollars to get a bike, she deserves to get exactly what she wants and needs. Unless she has $$$ to burn that is.

I don't know if I'd place the LBS owner's feelings above my own needs. Prolly not.

uhh...I think your friend should definately find new shop as Serotta doesn't even list aluminum as a material they use on their website. They have a couple steel frames, a few ti frames, and a couple mixed frames. If the dealer said he could deliver a custom aluminum frame, he wasn't looking at the current catalog, but one from many years ago.

On their website, serotta lists the colorado III as a lugless steel bike with a carbon rear end. So the shop was ordering your friend a steel bike anyways. The aluminum colorados are many years old.

I'd be a little dubious on both counts. There are plenty o' WSD models available now that come in small sizes like that, and there are TONS of custom builders besides Serrotta. I would definitely get the deposit back and go elsewhere. Something sounds fishy about that LBS - either that or they're a little ignorant
I would have thought the toe overlap would have been solved by the 650 wheels. In any event...maybe the rear carbon stay is not designed for the small wheels and can't be custom sized?

FWIW...my wife is about the same size and fit into a 46cm Cannondale WSD with 650s right off the rack. Are you sure she needs custom?

I guess the $2000 deposit was for the bike and the fitting. Maybe you only get the numbers if you specifically pay for the fitting and don't buy a bike?

I've had a Serotta Fitting done at a different LBS. They have a sign that says the fitting is $125...but is applied to the purchase price of the bike.


I got the Serotta fitting at a shop not really intending to buy a Serotta but go with another builder. The folks who fit me gave me all the numbers. Odd this store did not give your friend this information, even stranger if she paid for the fitting.

With this many danger signs it is time to go elsewhere.

Serotta is the only custom builder available???? I think your friend is getting royally.... They must be brand new to the business or have no idea what they are talking about. Get the store to give back her money and find a more reputable dealer. Where does she live? Maybe some folks on this forum could help her find one.
Cheers, Wayne

If she doesn't want an all steel or titanium bike, she should request and expect a refund. There's no reason for her not to get it; the deposit was for a rear carbon bike and Serotta can't deliver that.

But I can't understand "The LBS called back later and said a carbon rear stay is not available because it would cause severe toe overlap." Something doesn't seem right. What's the connection between rear triangle construction and toe overlap? Does this make any sense to anybody?

maybe cause they only have rear carbon triangles designed for 700c compatible frames, not 650c?

maybe cause they only have rear carbon triangles designed for 700c compatible frames, not 650c?
I understand there may be many reasons why carbon stays are unavailable. What I don't understand is the connection to toe overlap. It seems no one else here does either. If carbon stays are only available for 700c frames, why not just say so?

I guess the $2000 deposit was for the bike and the fitting. Maybe you only get the numbers if you specifically pay for the fitting and don't buy a bike?

I've had a Serotta Fitting done at a different LBS. They have a sign that says the fitting is $125...but is applied to the purchase price of the bike.

either way, she paid for a certain product that the LBS can't deliver. a refund does not sound out of line. if she wants to continue with said LBS, have her ask them if they could order a custom frame from (insert name of favorite custom builder) who could make what she wants. just because serotta can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.

I would think that getting her deposit back would be quite reasonable.
1. She paid the deposit for a certain bike which Serotta has indicated they are unable to make.
2. Nobody has any out-of-pocket costs yet. It's not like Serotta has completed a frame that doesn't fit anybody else and now it's junk because she decided she doesn't want it either.

Incidentally, I can understand the bike shop's attitude about recommending only one builder. How many custom frame orders do they process? If they have a good relationship with one builder, I can see that they might not want to take a chance with somebody they don't know as well. Building lead time issues, unacceptability of the finished product, people wanting their deposits back, all those things happen and the bike shop gets caught in the middle.

Here are a few framebuilders I would recommend:



http://www.landsharkbicycles.com/
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/
http://chainwheel.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=363

I would have thought the toe overlap would have been solved by the 650 wheels. In any event...maybe the rear carbon stay is not designed for the small wheels and can't be custom sized?


Sounds like that is what the LBS told her but translation to third party then forum confuses the matter. Toe overlap with 700 so go to 650's but they dont make the carbon rear in 650's.

I think it is obvious. If she has to have carbon rear, get money back and get something else. My .02.

I echo all the sentiments expressed above.

Even with my very limited experience riding experience, the toe overlap explanation didn't make sense to me either. I've asked her to shop around, but she is afraid to offend the LBS owner. She feels she could never go in the shop again if she asks for her money back.

Why would she want to go back into a shop that screwed her, anyway?

It sounds like they're screwing her. First, they talked her into buying a custom bike when she probably doesn't need one. Second, they sold her on a Serotta by telling her that was her only option when it isn't. Third, something is fishy about the "severe toe overlap" and carbon stays. Fourth, who in their right mind sells a 650c wheel bike to ANY serious adult rider? But maybe your friend isn't that serious. We have short women on my team with 700c bikes, so it can be done.

I wouldn't shop there.

Fourth, who in their right mind sells a 650c wheel bike to ANY serious adult rider?

I wouldn't shop there.

I'm gonna guess the Ironman competitors might beg to differ...

Plus, aren;t MTB wheels roughly 650c?

I'm gonna guess the Ironman competitors might beg to differ...

Plus, aren;t MTB wheels roughly 650c?

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I meant racers when I said "serious adult rider". Ironman competitors, though they can probably kick my butt around a course, don't race in a pack. General consensus in my neck of the woods is go with 700c unless it's absolutely necessary.

I edited my statement above to include the fact that short women (5'2") can ride bikes with 700c wheels. Especially if it's a custom bike, I don't know why they'd have talked the woman into 650c wheels.

I've also heard that once there was a belief that 650c wheels were "faster", and that's why triathletes use them. That's since been proven untrue.

Why would she want to go back into a shop that screwed her, anyway?

It sounds like they're screwing her. First, they talked her into buying a custom bike when she probably doesn't need one. Second, they sold her on a Serotta by telling her that was her only option when it isn't. Third, something is fishy about the "severe toe overlap" and carbon stays. Fourth, who in their right mind sells a 650c wheel bike to ANY serious adult rider? But maybe your friend isn't that serious. We have short women on my team with 700c bikes, so it can be done.

I wouldn't shop there.
My wife has a freind who is an inch shorter than her that insists on riding 700c wheels with her small framed bike. It looks like a circus bike and the toe overlap is awful. Don't know how she rides the thing. Sure the gear ranges are affected by using smaller wheels, but for truly short women I think 650s are a good choice. Why ride something that is too big?

My wife has a freind who is an inch shorter than her that insists on riding 700c wheels with her small framed bike. It looks like a circus bike and the toe overlap is awful. Don't know how she rides the thing. Sure the gear ranges are affected by using smaller wheels, but for truly short women I think 650s are a good choice. Why ride something that is too big?

Not sure how tall your wife is, but I have a teammate who is also 5'2" and rides a 700c bike (custom). Very little toe overlap as far as I know and the bike looks normal. I used to call her old bike a "pony bike". I liked riding it around for sheeps and giggles, because it looked like a toy circus bike!

Now if you want to see something funny, I can point out the guy on an opposing team that's 6'4". His bike is so big it makes his 700c wheels look crazy tiny.

I understand there may be many reasons why carbon stays are unavailable. What I don't understand is the connection to toe overlap. It seems no one else here does either. If carbon stays are only available for 700c frames, why not just say so?

the 650c wheels solve the toe overlap problem. if you can't build the frame with 650c wheels because you don't have a carbon rear for them, then there would probably be toe overlap problems.

maybe they didn't know that they couldn't get the carbon rear when they first told her. in any case, a shop that seems this uninformed about what they're selling probably wouldn't get my business. go elsewhere.

Not sure how tall your wife is, but I have a teammate who is also 5'2" and rides a 700c bike (custom). Very little toe overlap as far as I know and the bike looks normal. I used to call her old bike a "pony bike". I liked riding it around for sheeps and giggles, because it looked like a toy circus bike!

Now if you want to see something funny, I can point out the guy on an opposing team that's 6'4". His bike is so big it makes his 700c wheels look crazy tiny.
I'm 6'2 and she's around 5'1". We do look pretty funny when we ride together. Still I think her bike looks like it fits her proportions better than her freinds' bike does. I can see the problem in racing of getting a wheel if you flat and such, but for general riding I think 650s make tons of sense for short women (and men!). The other deciding factor was that she doesn't ride all that much so no need spending a bundle on a bike. We found this one at the local VeloSwap for a really cheap price.

Here are a few framebuilders I would recommend:



http://www.landsharkbicycles.com/
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/
http://chainwheel.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=363

Terry Bicycles. Made for women specifically.

Terry Bicycles. Made for women specifically.
I looked at Terry for my wife, but don't like the idea of having 2 different size wheels. Talk about looking like a circus bike. ;) That means you have to carry 2 tubes instead of one.

Here's a bike for a 5'1" woman. It's got 700c wheels.

Yes, she's a racer, yes, she's fairly good and flexible, so she has no spacers and a 100mm stem.

However, with an 80mm stem flipped and some spacers, the Orbea Dama Race would be VERY nice, NOT custom, and WAY cheaper than a Serotta.

Here's a bike for a 5'1" woman. It's got 700c wheels.

Yes, she's a racer, yes, she's fairly good and flexible, so she has no spacers and a 100mm stem.

However, with an 80mm stem flipped and some spacers, the Orbea Dama Race would be VERY nice, NOT custom, and WAY cheaper than a Serotta.
That looks like a nice bike, but appears to have terrible toe overlap. Not really a huge deal for an experienced rider at normal speeds, but you'd have to get used to it when tooling around the parking lot so you didn't smack your foot with the tire.

Toe overlap isn't a real big deal. I ride a 53cm Look 481sl, which is a very common size in that bike. It has about an inch of toe overlap. The only time I notice it is when I stand at a stop light and happen to hit it for some reason. As for the 650c wheels and racing...another reason you don't see a bunch of racers use them is neutral support vehicles rarely have that size.

That looks like a nice bike, but appears to have terrible toe overlap. Not really a huge deal for an experienced rider at normal speeds, but you'd have to get used to it when tooling around the parking lot so you didn't smack your foot with the tire.

Not really bad overlap. And a bit is acceptable.

Remember that a 5'2" woman has REALLY tiny feet!

Not really bad overlap. And a bit is acceptable.

Remember that a 5'2" woman has REALLY tiny feet!

toe overlap would be a concern on a cyclocross or mountain bike, but not on a road bike. you barely turn the handlebars when you steer, unless you're going very slow. I'm 5'4", and ride a 48cm Redline Conquest. with 700c wheels and large tires there's a fair bit of toe overlap to deal with, but I deal with it. I've even ridden singletrack on it.

Luna cycles, built for females by a female frame builder.

I never heard the term "toe overlap" but I am assuming that is when the toe hits the front wheel? If this is the case my Specialized Tarmac has it, and I use for races, crits etc and have never had a problem.

Since they dont have the product she put the deposit on, I think it is reasonable for her to get her deposit back.

nathan

I never heard the term "toe overlap" but I am assuming that is when the toe hits the front wheel? If this is the case my Specialized Tarmac has it, and I use for races, crits etc and have never had a problem.

It's true on most frame sizes 54cm and under. Other than increasing the fork rake or going to smaller wheels, you'll have toe overlap. I'm 5'9 and ride 53-55cm frames. It's part of life although I rarely even think about it. Some folks seem to think it's a poorly designed bike or something when they're usually riding large frame sizes.

Toe overlap is exactly as you suspect, the toe of your foot hitting the front wheel when you turn the wheel. It only matters at ultra slow speed.

at least her deposit less a fitting fee. If they're mulling over the choice of steel (CIII) or ti (legend or concourse), then it sure sounds like the shop has not yet ordered any particular bike from Serotta (or committed any funds to Serotta), so I don't know why they wouldn't refund the deposit.

Now, it is possible that your friend would do better with a custom frame and it is possible that she'd do better with 650 wheels. Beats me, but it's possible. I frankly don't know whether Serotta offers a CF rear on small bikes with 650 wheels, but you sure could call Serotta to find out. They have actual folks over there who answer the telephone and they're perfectly pleasant to talk to. There's also a Serotta chat board, with some longtime enthusiasts, whose opinions you could seek.

As for the "downgrade" to all steel: Serotta makes a darn nice steel frame and I'm not sure it's at all inferior to the steel frame with carbon stays, despite the sizeable upcharge for the carbon stays. If there's a weight difference, it's likely to be negligible, especially with a small frame like that. Ti costs lots more, although Serotta's ti bikes have their ardent fans despite the extra $ (as does Serotta's way pricey Ottrot CF/Ti frame).

As for the claim that Serotta is the only custom option: well, I don't know exactly what they said in response to exactly what question. Serotta can design and build a frame--no doubt about it. But certainly there are other custom frame builders out there with good reputations and references. Spectrum, IF, Seven, Strong, Kirk, Vanilla, Curtlo, Rex, (Sachs, if you can wait a few years), etc., etc.--the list goes on and on. Serotta isn't the only shop with a good reputation for custom frames, although Serotta certainly is one such shop. How good depends in part on the quality of the fitting ... which may be another can of worms. If you want to start looking into different builders, talking to them, etc., that's another project entirely, although one you might enjoy.

Good luck.

There's been a new development!

The young lady received a call from the LBS yesterday indicating that after much deliberation between LBS and Serotta, a carbon rear seat stay will be made for her custom Colorado model with the 650c wheels.

I wonder if this thread got back to somebody?

Thanx,

There's been a new development!

The young lady received a call from the LBS yesterday indicating that after much deliberation between LBS and Serotta, a carbon rear seat stay will be made for her custom Colorado model with the 650c wheels.

I wonder if this thread got back to somebody?

Thanx,

I hope she really wanted a Serotta. from your original post it almost sounded like she was a relatively new rider who didn't know what she was getting into and who got screwed by the LBS. I take it this is not the shop that sponsors your club.