It seems that the last couple of years have seen US riders really excel in the Time Trial pursuit. Here are some results lately:

Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré:
Prolog: 4/5 were US riders. Hincapie, Leipheimer, Landis, Armstrong
Stage 3 TT: 4/7 were US. Same group as prolog.

Giro 2005:
Zabriskie 1st and 3rd on the two TT

Tour Georgia (granted not all the big Euro guns were there):
7/9 were US. Same as all listed above plus Danielson and two domestic riders.

Vuelta 2004:
Hamilton 1st

Olympics:
Hamilton Gold, Julich Bronze

And of course Armstrong has pretty much owned TTs in the last 6 TdF. And yea, Hamilton appears to be unclean.

We also have several riders that appear to be pretty strong in this area. Danielson rode pretty well in the first Giro TT. Jason McCartney finished 16th in the TdS TT. Not so sure about Chris Horner, however it doesn't really matter seeing how he is already 33.

So why has the US had so much success in this area? The general consensus is that Americans are overly concerned with personal success. Since Cycling is mostly a team sport, could Americans just practice harder on the Individual side of things? For the glory?

Another thing I was wondering...Generally speaking it seems that TT specialists are never GC contenders, unless they are American. It would seem to me that someone that could hold high wattage for extended periods would generally speaking be the best riders out there. Even climbing should be easy for someone putting out 450 watts for an hour or two. Or more.

I know there exceptions. Jan Ullrich. Heck even Michael Rogers today rode away from most just about everyone on the TdS.

There you have it, some rambling and celebrating of my Countries top riders :D

I'll think out loud with you! Could it be that a good 80% of US cyclist live in a relatively flat area? Having just driven all around Germany, Swiss, Austria, France, and Italy I can say that almost everywhere is only a few hours from some mountains. In Europe "Hey I can do this climb in 50 minutes!" in the US "Hey I can do a 40k in 55 minutes!" Maybe the TT is something that is more approachable to the US therefore something for our riders to excel in? Ask jimmy joe bob to watch a climb... meeeeeh. Now a TT, everyone gets, GO FREAKING FAST!

K

My guess would be that American riders are typically bigger and can produce more total wattage. Since time trialing has little to do with weight, and a lot to do with wattage and frontal area, it helps to have a George Hincapie like physique, compared to a typical Italian like Di Luca or Bettini.

I would also agree that it is a bit of individualism too. You don't see top Belgian or Dutch riders, who clearly have the power, go for top 5s or 10s in these kind of races. It seems as though they'd rather save themselves for a breakaway or sprint.

Silas

I think it's a matter of perspective; the relatively few US riders in Europe are the best US riders, hence it's not surprising that many of them are good time trialists. "Lesser" US riders who might find their niche as breakaway specialists, domestiques or just good racers (maybe not so strong but good race savy) have very little chance to get to race in Europe because it's harder to recognize these talents and well racing in the US how much oppurtunity does a US rider have to shine at these kind of things in the eyes of European DS's.

A better question might be why doesn't the US produce good sprinters? I can't think of a single domestic US sprinter that I would hire if I was going to build a team to go to Europe to race. Fred Rodriguez is really the only guy with a kick and he's definitely not a 1st tier guy.

I'm not sure this is a true trend. Sure, a lot of Americans have gotten a lot of high placings lately, but in many of these races, the differences between placings across the board are seconds or less. If Americans were consistently winning by large margins, I think you could call it a trend.

The race calender, at least in Arizona is completely packed with TTs relative to European amateur race calendars.
It is not uncommen for european non pros to not really TT at all.
So, if many races are TTs you train for TTs if not.....

As for why TT riders dont do well in GC: most of them are impressive diesel engines, they can go on at a rather high pace forever. The price is that when the jumps are made, they suffer.


It seems that the last couple of years have seen US riders really excel in the Time Trial pursuit. Here are some results lately:

Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré:
Prolog: 4/5 were US riders. Hincapie, Leipheimer, Landis, Armstrong
Stage 3 TT: 4/7 were US. Same group as prolog.

Giro 2005:
Zabriskie 1st and 3rd on the two TT

Tour Georgia (granted not all the big Euro guns were there):
7/9 were US. Same as all listed above plus Danielson and two domestic riders.

Vuelta 2004:
Hamilton 1st

Olympics:
Hamilton Gold, Julich Bronze

And of course Armstrong has pretty much owned TTs in the last 6 TdF. And yea, Hamilton appears to be unclean.

We also have several riders that appear to be pretty strong in this area. Danielson rode pretty well in the first Giro TT. Jason McCartney finished 16th in the TdS TT. Not so sure about Chris Horner, however it doesn't really matter seeing how he is already 33.

So why has the US had so much success in this area? The general consensus is that Americans are overly concerned with personal success. Since Cycling is mostly a team sport, could Americans just practice harder on the Individual side of things? For the glory?

Another thing I was wondering...Generally speaking it seems that TT specialists are never GC contenders, unless they are American. It would seem to me that someone that could hold high wattage for extended periods would generally speaking be the best riders out there. Even climbing should be easy for someone putting out 450 watts for an hour or two. Or more.

I know there exceptions. Jan Ullrich. Heck even Michael Rogers today rode away from most just about everyone on the TdS.

There you have it, some rambling and celebrating of my Countries top riders :D

of GC riders who could TT.
Lemond (still holds a TdF TT record)
Anquetil (climbed to limit losses, TT'd to overall victory)
Indurain (similar to Jaques though he could IMHO climb better, but TT's were his bread and butter)

other GC riders who dominated their eras as TTers but not considered TTers
Merckx

so we can toss that theory. it's mostlt relating to the TdF as the other 2 GT's are less weighted to TT which IMHO doesn't put as much emphasis on overall ability.
I know I beat this horse constantly but having Simoni, Cunego and Heras as overall champions (Giro, Vuelta) shows the climb orientation of these events as all these riders aren't top 5 material (so far) at the Tour.

My guess would be that American riders are typically bigger and can produce more total wattage. Since time trialing has little to do with weight, and a lot to do with wattage and frontal area, it helps to have a George Hincapie like physique, compared to a typical Italian like Di Luca or Bettini.

I would also agree that it is a bit of individualism too. You don't see top Belgian or Dutch riders, who clearly have the power, go for top 5s or 10s in these kind of races. It seems as though they'd rather save themselves for a breakaway or sprint.

Silas

The size argument doesn't hold water, because take a look at Tyler, he's wee... And Julich, he ain't much larger than Tyler. It actually hinders you to have a George Hincapie like physique, he's too tall for the most part. There are exceptions to the rule, Indurain comes to mind, because he was a "monster" in terms of bike racers. There are many other countries that produce top time trialists as well as America. Rodgers, McGhee, Rich, Ullrich, Voigt, and the list could go on and on. I think we just notice the American riders more. Look at the top 10 from the Tour de Suisse's first ITT:

1 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team
2 Bradley McGee (Aus) Française Des Jeux
3 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick Step
4 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Fassa Bortolo
5 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) Domina Vacanze
6 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Team CSC
7 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC
8 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC
9 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo
10 Patrick Sinkewitz (Ger) Quick Step

3 Germans, 2 Australians, 1 Swiss, 1 Ukranian, 1 Russian, 1 Italian, and 1 US. That's a pretty wide range of nationalities there.

Top 10 from the 1st long ITT at the Dauphine (left out the prologue because that's not really an ITT):

1 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems
2 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner
3 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
4 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems
5 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team
6 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems
7 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
8 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Fassa Bortolo
9 Ivan Gutierrez (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
10 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner

Now we have 4 US, 1 Columbian, 1 Kazak, 2 Spainards, 1 Italian, and 1 German. So in this breakdown, we're a little more represented than the Germans were in the ITT at Tour de Suisse, but just by 1 rider.

And one last one. The ITTs at the Giro top 10's:

1st ITT:
1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC
2 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC
3 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel-Pro Cycling Team
4 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Fassa Bortolo
5 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) Domina Vacanze
6 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears
7 Markus Fothen (Ger) Gerolsteiner
8 Thomas Dekker (Ned) Rabobank
9 Jan Hruska (Cze) Liberty Seguros-Wurth Team
10 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi

1 American, 3 Italians, 1 Ukranian, 1 Russian, 1 German, 1 Dutch, and 1 Czech. Not overly represented at the ITT in this one. Although the US guy did win this particular ITT.

2nd ITT:
1 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC
2 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears
3 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC
4 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel-Pro Cycling Team
5 Dario David Cioni (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi
6 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) Domina Vacanze
7 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Fassa Bortolo
8 Juan Manuel Garate (Spa) Saunier Duval-Prodir
9 Paolo Bettini (Ita) Quick.Step
10 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita

Once again, 1 American, 6 Italians, 1 Russian, 1 Ukranian, and 1 Spainard. Not overly represented once again.

So overall from the results listed above, Americans only appear 7 times in the top 10 of the above listed races out of 40 places. That's 17.5% of the time.

Italians appear 11 times out of 40 or 27.5% of the time.

Russians appear 3 out of 40. So 7.5%.

Ukranians appear 3 out of 40. So 7.5%.

Spainards appear 3 out of 40 so 7.5%.

So I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is that by the stats so far this year, Americans are not the best TTers, going by top 10 finishes. The Italians are.

I know I beat this horse constantly but having Simoni, Cunego and Heras as overall champions (Giro, Vuelta) shows the climb orientation of these events as all these riders aren't top 5 material (so far) at the Tour.

I'm going to have to disagree a little bit here. First, for every Simoni and Heras there is a Savoldelli and Aitor Gonzalez. Riders who are strong in the TT's can still win these races over climbing specialists. Second, the reason these guys can win the Vuelta or Giro and not the Tour is because they haven't had to beat LA, Ullrich, Beloki, etc. to win. I think it is more about the level of competition than about an emphasis on climbing.

are truly more all rounders, and yes it falls into level of competition, neither are yet up to the caliber of LA, Jan, etc... but just the fact that a 'pure climber' with low TT skills has a shot at winning shows the climb centricity.

but just the fact that a 'pure climber' with low TT skills has a shot at winning shows the climb centricity.

Or maybe it just shows the imbalance the Tour gives to the long TT. Aside from last year's Giro, the Giro and the Vuelta have been close, exciting races for the last several years.

So I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is that by the stats so far this year, Americans are not the best TTers, going by top 10 finishes. The Italians are.

Nice try, but you should probably consider sample sizes. How many Americans participated in those time trials? How many Italians participated in those time trials? In the Giro, Italians made up about 33% of the entire field that finished the race; Americans were 2.6% of the finishers.

While the numbers probably aren't as skewed in the other races, there are still far more Italians competing in the Pro Tour than Americans.

Nice try, but you should probably consider sample sizes. How many Americans participated in those time trials? How many Italians participated in those time trials? In the Giro, Italians made up about 33% of the entire field that finished the race; Americans were 2.6% of the finishers.

While the numbers probably aren't as skewed in the other races, there are still far more Italians competing in the Pro Tour than Americans.

The percentages still hold true. I just looked at the ProTour events, most recent ones, that were considered more indicative of the overall teams racing at that level. We can look at it again after le Tour if you'd like. The percentages are still the same though, even though the overall American make up is smaller no doubt than that of the Italians, but I would say that the top riders, or the elite of the elite, would probably be the same. Essentially I think there are a lot more shlubs/domestiques from other countries than there are from America.

Nice try, but you should probably consider sample sizes. How many Americans participated in those time trials? How many Italians participated in those time trials? In the Giro, Italians made up about 33% of the entire field that finished the race; Americans were 2.6% of the finishers.

While the numbers probably aren't as skewed in the other races, there are still far more Italians competing in the Pro Tour than Americans.


That would have been by response. I think the first reply has a good point too..most of the US is flat compared to the terrain on the GTs, therefore TT type training is probably quite prevalent.

when the same guys winning the TT's are in the tops of the climbing stages as well?
I'm sorry but Simoni, Cunego and Heras are not 'all around cyclists' (as much as I like them) and as much as I like the Giro and Vuelta which yes have produced great high drama, they have not produced winners in most cases one would classify as an all-rounder of the top level.

The percentages still hold true.

Of course the percentages hold true, but they don't tell you anything.

For example, did you know that in a recent ProTour race, every American rider finished in the top ten of the final time trial. Isn't that crazy? Does it mean anything? The Italians had 24 races, and only 1 finished in the top ten. So Americans have a 100% success rate (top-ten finishes), and the Italians have a 4.2% success rate. What kind of crazy race was that? It certainly couldn't have been a race that anyone takes seriously.

And for what it's worth, 25% of those Americans were lowly domestiques. And another 50% were former lowly domestiques.

The Tour is imbalanced because the time trial lengths are stuck in the past when mountain stages produced very large time gaps. That no longer occurs, and the end result has been a boring race year after year. The Giro and Vuelta have the mix right. In the last five years, the 2004 Giro is the only one that sucked, and that was more due to no one showing up than anything else.

Sure, probably if the Tour shortened their TTs and/or used less flat courses, maybe added more difficult climbs, the same people would be at the front and the margins would be even greater. But as it is now, there are a whole bunch of Spanish and Italian riders who don't show up or don't show up in form because they know they'll be killed in the 55-60K flat time trial. The tactics of Postal have made the Tour even worse because now even the so called mountain stages amount to everyone being dragged to a few kilometers from the finish, followed by a sprint up to the line.

The organizers of the Vuelta and Giro have spent the last few years searching out more difficult climbs to add to their races. The Tour organizers have done nothing. They are content to let first mountain stage take place half way though the race. They've been coasting on their reputation and media focus while the other GTs have concentrated on making exciting races. The Tour has become like Formula 1; the most money, the most media exposure, but a compelling race is rare and happens by accident.

when sub 140 lb climbing specialist take overall GC that isn't balanced. I agree the Giro and Vuelta have been more exciting but more balanced is a lie. Jan, LA, Basso, Kloden are all more complete riders than heras, cunego, simoni.

as for postal, yes they've killed the long mountain assault, not their fault they ride so fast.

when sub 140 lb climbing specialist take overall GC that isn't balanced. I agree the Giro and Vuelta have been more exciting but more balanced is a lie. Jan, LA, Basso, Kloden are all more complete riders than heras, cunego, simoni.

as for postal, yes they've killed the long mountain assault, not their fault they ride so fast.

I am with atpjunkie here - the "race of truth" is just as important as climbing and a reasonable "all-rounder" type race should give TT specialist as much of an opportunity to get some time on climbers as it gives climbers to get ahead of TT guys. In that sense I think Tour is fairly well ballanced. Sometimes I wish there were greater time bonuses for sprints (including intermediates) and agressive riding (read: breakaways) to give people like Dekker or O'Grady some help in overall standings.

Sometimes I wish there were greater time bonuses for sprints (including intermediates) and agressive riding (read: breakaways) to give people like Dekker or O'Grady some help in overall standings.

For sure - reading today about Merckx's TdF breakway where he put 8 minutes into the field. Can you imagine that happening today? (There's dominance, and there's dominance done with panache.) Not sure how you could rig the bonuses to award aggressive riding, though. Even if you had big time bonuses for an intermediate point, the big teams would just shut down every breakaway attempt. It might even neutralize the race further.