Every so often I like to move an old thread forward. This one sure turned into a slugfest.Still, what I first mentioned in this post holds true, the AIDS quilt is quite impressive to see (and thought and discussion provoking too).

The AIDS quilt is on display in town again. Or at least a small part of it is-the whole thing is supposed to cover 48 acres. The last time it was in town it was spread out on the lawn between the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial but since that area is under construction the White House and Secret Service (rather generously I thought) allowed it to be displayed on the Elipse.

I am not sure what makes me sadder, all the folks younger than me who died from AIDS or all the folks older than me who died from AIDS.

It is touring the country, see it if you can.

It is kind of a dumb concept to me. What about everyone who died of heart disease? Where is their quilt? What about the cancer quilt? Where is the quilt for those who have died of old age? Where is it?

Stupid concept.

By the way, this is a sneaky way of posting a political post here, as the AIDS quilt is wholly political for the propagandist movement it supports...

This thread should be moved to the politics forum. :(

I don't think MB said there shouldn't be sorrow for the victoms or concern about the diseases you mentioned. He just posted some pics and thought there would be interest in seeing it. Your post made it political. His was information.

There's really no rational for compassion. Stupid compassionate concepts make us human.

It is kind of a dumb concept to me. What about everyone who died of heart disease? Where is their quilt? What about the cancer quilt? Where is the quilt for those who have died of old age? Where is it?

Stupid concept.

By the way, this is a sneaky way of posting a political post here, as the AIDS quilt is wholly political for the propagandist movement it supports...

This thread should be moved to the politics forum. :(

You just jumped over the line, then kept on running there didn't you. Exactly what kind of propagandist movement does the AIDS quilt support spank? I'm interested to hear this as I put together one of the first patches for a teacher of mine that passed away.

It is kind of a dumb concept to me. What about everyone who died of heart disease? Where is their quilt? What about the cancer quilt? Where is the quilt for those who have died of old age? Where is it?

Stupid concept.

By the way, this is a sneaky way of posting a political post here, as the AIDS quilt is wholly political for the propagandist movement it supports...

This thread should be moved to the politics forum. :(

OK, what about all those heart/cancer centers at hospitals named after wealthy contributors who had family die from those diseases? If you want to start a cancer quilt, go and do it.

As somebody who has 2 friends and a former teacher who have squares on that quilt (not to mention the 6 or 7 my mother quilted for people in the community before she passed away last year) I find your attitude amazingly insensitive.

I'm assuming you have a problem accepting people who have AIDS. Get over it.

You've muffed it this time Spank. I've lost too many friends to AIDS, and I too find your comments insensitive.

Bad dog!

It is kind of a dumb concept to me. What about everyone who died of heart disease? Where is their quilt? What about the cancer quilt? Where is the quilt for those who have died of old age? Where is it?

Stupid concept.

By the way, this is a sneaky way of posting a political post here, as the AIDS quilt is wholly political for the propagandist movement it supports...

This thread should be moved to the politics forum. :(

You've muffed it this time Spank. I've lost too many friends to AIDS, and I too find your comments insensitive.

Bad dog!

Spankdog's quote was a bit over the line, calling the quilt a stupid concept. I am also unsure why he believes this is a political post. But I can understand where he's coming from to some degree. I don't have the CDC stats in front of me, but I thought I read some time ago that AIDS deaths in the US had hit a sort of plateau, while cancer and heart disease deaths continue to rise. Granted, this is an out-of-control epidemic in the developing world.
Someone please fill me in on this (and I'm sure everyone will.) There was also a stat sheet put out by either the American Diabetes Association, Cancer Society or the Heart Association pointing out how US federal research funding per afflicted person is disproportionately tilted toward AIDS and breast cancer. But anyone can make the stats say what they want when it comes to comparing the impact of diseases. Among my family and friends, AIDS has had zero impact, but cancer, heart attacks, and diabetes have hit several. Activists benefit when they can accuse a guy who doesn't get involved in their efforts as a homophobe or misogynist, so I hope that won't be pinned on me now. The quilt has impact. Let's cure HIV/AIDS, but it does seem to me that there are bigger killers out there.

I think lots of people, myself included, have a difficult time coming to grips with AIDS because, like lung cancer caused by smoking, it's almost 100% preventable. Don't have unprotected sex or share a needle with someone who has it, and you won't get it (with extremely rare exceptions). Mostly the same with lung cancer. It's much harder (not impossible) to sympathize when voluntary, risky conduct largely causes the disease. I have lost several family members to lung cancer from smoking, and it pains me to understand it. Now, they started smoking well before people knew it caused cancer, then learned too late. As of 2004 for either case, though, people now know the risks. I don't want this to sound insensitive or disapproving, but I sure don't understand it.

I also think it's unfortunate that many people seem to disapprove of efforts to curb the conduct that causes the disease, instead focusing on the cure. I just don't get that, either.

This has nothing to do with politics, as far as I know.

I think lots of people, myself included, have a difficult time coming to grips with AIDS because, like lung cancer caused by smoking, it's almost 100% preventable. Don't have unprotected sex or share a needle with someone who has it, and you won't get it (with extremely rare exceptions). Mostly the same with lung cancer. It's much harder (not impossible) to sympathize when voluntary, risky conduct largely causes the disease. I have lost several family members to lung cancer from smoking, and it pains me to understand it. Now, they started smoking well before people knew it caused cancer, then learned too late. As of 2004 for either case, though, people now know the risks. I don't want this to sound insensitive or disapproving, but I sure don't understand it.

I also think it's unfortunate that many people seem to disapprove of efforts to curb the conduct that causes the disease, instead focusing on the cure. I just don't get that, either.

This has nothing to do with politics, as far as I know.

2 words RYAN WHITE

I think lots of people, myself included, have a difficult time coming to grips with AIDS because, like lung cancer caused by smoking, it's almost 100% preventable. Don't have unprotected sex or share a needle with someone who has it, and you won't get it (with extremely rare exceptions). Mostly the same with lung cancer. It's much harder (not impossible) to sympathize when voluntary, risky conduct largely causes the disease. I have lost several family members to lung cancer from smoking, and it pains me to understand it. Now, they started smoking well before people knew it caused cancer, then learned too late. As of 2004 for either case, though, people now know the risks. I don't want this to sound insensitive or disapproving, but I sure don't understand it.

I also think it's unfortunate that many people seem to disapprove of efforts to curb the conduct that causes the disease, instead focusing on the cure. I just don't get that, either.

This has nothing to do with politics, as far as I know.
You make good points Doug, however, I could say the same thing of most heart disease as well as most deaths on our highways........a large percentage are preventable.....by either diet and exercise, or better care. Do you have a difficult time coming to grips with these diseases/causes of death?

I also agree that focus on prevention is one of the key areas that should be focused on with any funds devoted to these diseases.

I have had friends and family die of AIDS.....I have devoted a significant effort to AIDS education as well as raising money for research for a cure. What bothers me the most about reactions to AIDS in general, is that if the people dying were not a high percentage gay or form the African sub-continent, their would be a much larger outcry and devotion of resources towards a solution. This, while it is human nature to not worry until it strikes close to hme, strikes me as wrong. Whole generations are dying in Africa, too many good americans are dying, and while in many cases, it may have been preventable (with today's knowledge), it still is a tradegy. The AIDS quilt is an attempt for some of those left behind to not only remember and honor those they lost, but also remind the rest of us that the threat has not gone away. If one person who views he quilt makes the decision to change their behavior to reduce their risk.....than we should be gladdened by it's presence.

As to Spankdoggie.........if you want to honor someone who died of heart disease.....go ahead, make your own quilt. This quilt reduces the "statistics" of how many died of AIDS to somehting that lets us know that real human beings that someone cared about died from this awful disease. You don't get it, no problem....you probably never will.

As to being political, I don't see it that way, I see it as a poster sharing something that touched them. You don't like it, ignore it.

My .02

Len

A lot of folks went to a lot of effort to do something to remember their loved ones who died of AIDS. The work they did ranges from fine art to grafitti. To see the number of pieces and variety on display was quite moving.

I was really touched and spankdoggie if you visit the quilt you may be too.

Or not. Your loss not mine.

You make good points Doug, however, I could say the same thing of most heart disease as well as most deaths on our highways........a large percentage are preventable.....by either diet and exercise, or better care. Do you have a difficult time coming to grips with these diseases/causes of death?

Yes, I also have difficulty understanding conduct like overeating yourself into disease, risky conduct that is unreasonably likely to kill you in accidents, etc. I don't think it is insensitivity as much as a very strong conviction that people are free to choose their lifestyle, but the result is taking personal responsibility for that conduct, too. That philosophy is the very core of my being. If I hit a rock and blow a tire on a mountain descent tomorrow and wake up dead, I don't want people to get inflamed about it, but rather recognize that I was doing something I loved and fairly well knew the risks. Celebrate that fact and the more general fact of our liberty here to do such things. I think the same applies to all sorts of risky behavior.

By the way, I did not intend any of my comments to detract from MB1's post, but rather an attempt to partially explain some of the insensitivity following; still, it's one thing to be insensitive, but I think most of the time I've found it's better to keep it to yourself. Some of us need a better gatekeeper between the brain and the keyboard.

I was really touched and spankdoggie if you visit the quilt you may be too.



I really was not too interested in the quilt. I initially thought that it was a hokey idea. Then, several years ago, Corigliano's Symphony No. 1 (the "AIDS Symphony) was part of our regular symphony subscription. At the concert, several pieces of the quilt were on display. I was moved by the experience.

Insofar as the disease itself is concerned, blaming the victims is as unfair as blaming the victims of most other diseases. Sure, promiscuous sex may have caused AIDS to spread, but there are lots of AIDS victims whose conduct was no different than that of most of the people who have various "problems" with AIDS. Anyone here who never, ever has had sex without a condom? Anyone here have a blood transfusion in the early 1980s(one of my law school friends, a hemophiliac, died of AIDS that he contracted either from the many transfusions or the blood-derived treatments that he had received)?

What bothers me the most about reactions to AIDS in general, is that if the people dying were not a high percentage gay or form the African sub-continent, their would be a much larger outcry and devotion of resources towards a solution.
Len

I disagree. With a few exceptions, you are painting with a broad brush. It is about personal responsibility. In both those groups cited, the spread of HIV is caused by lack of personal responsibilty. Gay men having unprotected sex and Africans having unprotected sex are what I, and many people have a problem with. Spending 15 Billion American tax dollars in Africa to stop the spread of AIDS when the solution is as simple and as inexpensive as personal responsibility is outrageous.

I look at the quilt and surmise that the great majority of these people would still be alive if they would have practiced some sort of personal responsibility (like abstenence, condoms, or not having sex with strangers then coming home and have sex with your SO).

I disagree. With a few exceptions, you are painting with a broad brush. It is about personal responsibility. In both those groups cited, the spread of HIV is caused by lack of personal responsibilty. Gay men having unprotected sex and Africans having unprotected sex are what I, and many people have a problem with. Spending 15 Billion American tax dollars in Africa to stop the spread of AIDS when the solution is as simple and as inexpensive as personal responsibility is outrageous.

I look at the quilt and surmise that the great majority of these people would still be alive if they would have practiced some sort of personal responsibility (like abstenence, condoms, or not having sex with strangers then coming home and have sex with your SO).
I'm surprised your canvas is large enough.

Let me ask you a few questions, which you can answer or not, think about or not, but which I think frame this a little bit:

1.) Re the Quilt, how many of the people that died were infected before there was general awareness of the risk? How many people that died, died because of tainted blood transfusions? How many people died because they were infected by someone who they didn't know was at risk?

2.) If you are married, in what you think is a committed relationship, do you and your wife both get tested periodically to see if you are HIV free? No? Why not? Oh, because you trust your wife, and she trusts you.........so I assume you have unprotected sex? What happened to personal responsibility? Believe it or not, many (No not all, and admittidly probably not a majority, but more than you probably think) HIV positive individuals are infected by people that they trust, and believe are clean.

3.) Why do you think the solution in Africa is "as simple as safe sex"? You are assuming that the awareness level is the same as yours, is it? The truth is that hundreds of thousands are dying and very few of them are officially being attributed to AIDS, the disease, in many parts of Africa, is the 900 pound Gorilla that no one wants to talk about. Much of the Aid money is going to education programs to raise the awareness level. In the meantime, the virus is spreading and resulting in a tradgedy.......Should we ignore this because some don't practice personal responsibility? Sounds like a "they are getting what they deserve" attitude.

4.) Have you ever made a mistake in your life? Should we take the same approach you are reccomending to teenage pregnancy? You know, "well, that person practiced unprotected sex, it's not my problem". Meanwhile, a human being, a child, is put at risk. Same with AIDS....how many kids are parentless because of this disease......As I said, whole generations are dying.

And then there is the issue of comapssion........oh yeah, I forgaot, they didn't exercise personal responsibility so they can just........never mind.

Len

Right on. This disease is not just a gay disease or a indication of lack of morals or personal responsibility. Would you say that all people who get lung cancer didn't take responsibility for their health and deserve what they get too?

I'm surprised your canvas is large enough.

Let me ask you a few questions, which you can answer or not, think about or not, but which I think frame this a little bit:

1.) Re the Quilt, how many of the people that died were infected before there was general awareness of the risk? How many people that died, died because of tainted blood transfusions? How many people died because they were infected by someone who they didn't know was at risk?

2.) If you are married, in what you think is a committed relationship, do you and your wife both get tested periodically to see if you are HIV free? No? Why not? Oh, because you trust your wife, and she trusts you.........so I assume you have unprotected sex? What happened to personal responsibility? Believe it or not, many (No not all, and admittidly probably not a majority, but more than you probably think) HIV positive individuals are infected by people that they trust, and believe are clean.

3.) Why do you think the solution in Africa is "as simple as safe sex"? You are assuming that the awareness level is the same as yours, is it? The truth is that hundreds of thousands are dying and very few of them are officially being attributed to AIDS, the disease, in many parts of Africa, is the 900 pound Gorilla that no one wants to talk about. Much of the Aid money is going to education programs to raise the awareness level. In the meantime, the virus is spreading and resulting in a tradgedy.......Should we ignore this because some don't practice personal responsibility? Sounds like a "they are getting what they deserve" attitude.

4.) Have you ever made a mistake in your life? Should we take the same approach you are reccomending to teenage pregnancy? You know, "well, that person practiced unprotected sex, it's not my problem". Meanwhile, a human being, a child, is put at risk. Same with AIDS....how many kids are parentless because of this disease......As I said, whole generations are dying.

And then there is the issue of comapssion........oh yeah, I forgaot, they didn't exercise personal responsibility so they can just........never mind.

Len


#1) Regarding general awareness of the disease. What difference does it make, really. Before there was "general awareness" of HIV, there was general awareness that the same irresponsible practices spread hepititus, ghonera, herpes, clamydia, etc etc etc. Yep. died of tainted blood tranfusions. But once again, those diseases were passed on to innocents by irresponsible behavior.

#2) Regarding my sexual practices, I have been with the same woman for over 20 years and she with me ALONE. Perhpas your wife, or your girlfriends, or you are a ***** and you want to attribute your values or lackthereof to me and others.

#3) Regarding Africa. There is awareness in Africa. The problem is the culture that inhibits monogamy foolishness and condems as unmanly. All the money in the world thrown at the AIDS problem is not going to solve it until they keep their Cheney in their pants, stay monogomas and/or use condems. As far as your assertion that I am saying "they get what they deserve" is not correct. A more appropriate sentiment would be, "they reap what they sow." Why does a certain segment of our society always fell the need to reward illegal, illicit, or imoral behabior?

#4) Have I ever made a mistake in my life? What do my mistakes (Yes, mistakes, I have made plenty) have to do with anything other than your attempts to shift the focus from the real problem- lack of personal responsibility. Your statement that children are dying because of AIDS reinforces my point. If Mom or Dad acted with personal responsibility their kids would not be inflicted.

#1) Regarding general awareness of the disease. What difference does it make, really. Before there was "general awareness" of HIV, there was general awareness that the same irresponsible practices spread hepititus, ghonera, herpes, clamydia, etc etc etc. Yep. died of tainted blood tranfusions. But once again, those diseases were passed on to innocents by irresponsible behavior.

#2) Regarding my sexual practices, I have been with the same woman for over 20 years and she with me ALONE. Perhpas your wife, or your girlfriends, or you are a ***** and you want to attribute your values or lackthereof to me and others.

#3) Regarding Africa. There is awareness in Africa. The problem is the culture that inhibits monogamy foolishness and condems as unmanly. All the money in the world thrown at the AIDS problem is not going to solve it until they keep their Cheney in their pants, stay monogomas and/or use condems. As far as your assertion that I am saying "they get what they deserve" is not correct. A more appropriate sentiment would be, "they reap what they sow." Why does a certain segment of our society always fell the need to reward illegal, illicit, or imoral behabior?

#4) Have I ever made a mistake in my life? What do my mistakes (Yes, mistakes, I have made plenty) have to do with anything other than your attempts to shift the focus from the real problem- lack of personal responsibility. Your statement that children are dying because of AIDS reinforces my point. If Mom or Dad acted with personal responsibility their kids would not be inflicted.
What self-righteous twaddle. I hope that you never have to see a close freind or relative die of this horrible disease.

#1) Regarding general awareness of the disease. What difference does it make, really. Before there was "general awareness" of HIV, there was general awareness that the same irresponsible practices spread hepititus, ghonera, herpes, clamydia, etc etc etc. Yep. died of tainted blood tranfusions. But once again, those diseases were passed on to innocents by irresponsible behavior.

#2) Regarding my sexual practices, I have been with the same woman for over 20 years and she with me ALONE. Perhpas your wife, or your girlfriends, or you are a ***** and you want to attribute your values or lackthereof to me and others.

#3) Regarding Africa. There is awareness in Africa. The problem is the culture that inhibits monogamy foolishness and condems as unmanly. All the money in the world thrown at the AIDS problem is not going to solve it until they keep their Cheney in their pants, stay monogomas and/or use condems. As far as your assertion that I am saying "they get what they deserve" is not correct. A more appropriate sentiment would be, "they reap what they sow." Why does a certain segment of our society always fell the need to reward illegal, illicit, or imoral behabior?

#4) Have I ever made a mistake in my life? What do my mistakes (Yes, mistakes, I have made plenty) have to do with anything other than your attempts to shift the focus from the real problem- lack of personal responsibility. Your statement that children are dying because of AIDS reinforces my point. If Mom or Dad acted with personal responsibility their kids would not be inflicted.

In all sincerity, I think that the callous and cruel attitude reflected in this post is a much greater problem than AIDS, and more difficult to solve. Please reflect on what your own words mean. I feel more sorrow and frustration than anger at your philosophy.

What self-righteous twaddle. I hope that you never have to see a close freind or relative die of this horrible disease.


I've had several close relatives die from lung cancer from smoking (lung cancer than turns into bone cancer is pretty ugly). Yes, I pretty much hate smoking and tobacco companies. Analogously, I would not know what to think if a close relative died of aids. Not that we have to *blame* something or someone, but there must be link in the chain of events that got them there that can be broken. What is that link?

In all sincerity, I think that the callous and cruel attitude reflected in this post is a much greater problem than AIDS, and more difficult to solve. Please reflect on what your own words mean. I feel more sorrow and frustration than anger at your philosophy.


In all sincerity, your attitude that rewards and coddles irresponsible behavior is what leads to more suffering; it makes the AIDS problem grow. Get rid of your elitist attitude that I need to "reflect" more, in essence saying you have done all the reflecting.

The solution to AIDS is simple. Stop sharing needles and sex partners. Your one comeback of AIDS through blood transfusions is a non-issue due to screening. ( Unless of course, some degenerate went from a prostitute, bathhouse, or back alley IV drug session right in to the Red Cross to donate blood 15 years ago for a couple of bucks and you were the unlucky recepient.)

What self-righteous twaddle. I hope that you never have to see a close freind or relative die of this horrible disease.

With the company I keep and my family, I doubt it.

Right on. This disease is not just a gay disease or a indication of lack of morals or personal responsibility. Would you say that all people who get lung cancer didn't take responsibility for their health and deserve what they get too?Would you say that all people who get lung cancer were world class marathoners? :(

the best thing to do with a bad argument is to ignore it. Ithink I'll take his advice.

I hope you never need compassion, if there is any karma, you will be in sad shape.

May you somehow get an open mind.

Len

the best thing to do with a bad argument is to ignore it. Ithink I'll take his advice.

I hope you never need compassion, if there is any karma, you will be in sad shape.

May you somehow get an open mind.

Len

If compassion is taking billions and billions of tax payer money to enable promiscuity and immoral behavior, then count me out.

If a human is suffering an enlightened person will have compassion and provide comfort. To claim that comforting someone with AIDS rewards and coddles irresponsible behaviour and makes the AIDS problem grow is absurd. The AIDS problem is worst where there is the least compassion for those with AIDS (sub-Saharan Africa, Haiti), and the AIDS problem has improved the most where compassion for those with AIDS has increased the most (U.S. gay community).

You can change your attitude. Just try to see things from another perspective. You can have compassion for people with AIDS and still abhor IV drug use and free sex.

If compassion is taking billions and billions of tax payer money to enable promiscuity and immoral behavior, then count me out.
I don't see the cause and effect here. So money spent on AIDS research makes people MORE promiscuous and immoral? How does that work? I thought it was spent to find a cure to an awful disease. If you think gays and junkies deserve what they get then at least say so and don't be disingenous about it. You'll be in good company with the likes of Fred Phelps then who pickets AIDS funerals with signs proclaiming "Fags must die". .

I don't see the cause and effect here. So money spent on AIDS research makes people MORE promiscuous and immoral? How does that work? I thought it was spent to find a cure to an awful disease. If you think gays and junkies deserve what they get then at least say so and don't be disingenous about it. You'll be in good company with the likes of Fred Phelps then who pickets AIDS funerals with signs proclaiming "Fags must die". .

Obviously, he's bought into all this neo-con bullsh!t completely. Of course, he hasn't actually known anybody who has or died of AIDS, so whatever Rush says must be ok.....

BTW, what do you expect from somebody who calls himself "pyg", anyway?

Obviously, he's bought into all this neo-con bullsh!t completely. Of course, he hasn't actually known anybody who has or died of AIDS, so whatever Rush says must be ok.....

BTW, what do you expect from somebody who calls himself "pyg", anyway?


HEY!!! I proudly attach myself to the "neo-con" title and I still feel compassion for people with AIDS or any other deadly disease. As conservative as I am, I have no problem with tax money being spent on AIDS research, I look at it as money well spent. I think to take the stance that its 100% preventable is a little off base. Sure most people contract the desease through unprotected sex or sharing of needles. But, people working in the medical field, public safety can be at risk. Condoms can break, rubber gloves can too. Why not work to eliminate a horible disease for everyone regardless of their risk.

I think it would help more people if they divided that huge quilt up into a bunch of quilts, and handed them out to homeless people. Making quilts for the homeless is much more productive than getting all teary eyed over the dead.

There is a time for grieving, then we all move on with our lives.
Chop that quilt up and help the homeless; shoot they can be gay homeless people, but there are a lot of homeless people that will go cold this winter because of that darned quilt...

I have read a few of the quilts and they can be sad, but take some pictures of them and make a book out of it. It would make a good Coffee Table book. Then give the quilts to the homeless...

I find it shameful that so many blankets are selfishly kept in storage when so many homeless people could use them.

Kinda makes you nuts, doesn't it MB1? Can't even post a (seemingly) innocent post without it turning into a free-for-all. Too bad. I'll bet the quilt is a moving display.

C'mon, you know as well as I do that a lot of the homeless have chronic drug and alcohol problems. Problems, I might add of their own making, due to their complete lack of willpower!!! They should just get their sh*t together and quit bugging me as they hobble about at intersections. I mean seriously, dude, if you weren't injecting heroin between your toes then mayyyybe you wouldn't have had your gangrenous leg cut off....

"No quilt for you, crazy alkie!"

Kinda makes you nuts, doesn't it MB1? Can't even post a (seemingly) innocent post without it turning into a free-for-all. Too bad. I'll bet the quilt is a moving display.

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cool post there MB....at least until the first reply