comes down to shameless self-promotion. This apparently never hurt anyone, as I've observed the same phenomena in science. There are people who have no problem promoting themselves endlessly and taking credit for accomplishments that are often the result of a team of people while giving the team or even colleagues next to no credit.

From cyclingnews.com:
"I typically see a 2-3 percent increase in Lance's sustainable power between the days prior to the Dauphine and the days immediately prior to the Tour de France," said Carmichael in team diary entry looking back on Armstrong's performance at the Dauphiné. "As a confirmation of his condition, he'll perform one more performance test about 10 days after the Dauphiné. I'll never forget looking at the results of a similar test seven years ago, just four days before the 1999 Tour de France began. He had reached the level where he was capable of winning the Tour de France, and he consistently returned to that level every year since."

"One of the benefits of a long career as a professional cyclist is the ability to rapidly adapt to training stimulus. Where it used to take 5-7 weeks early in his career, I've found that Lance's sustainable power can now move from a relatively under-trained state to race-ready within about three to five weeks."

The final performance test before the Tour will show where Armstrong's form stands, says Carmichael. "With his recent performance at the Dauphiné Libéré as a prelude, I'm confident the results of this last performance test will again show he's 100% ready to pursue a seventh and final Tour de France yellow jersey," he said.

Has anyone ever heard Carmichael mention Ferrari in any of these analyses of Armstrong's training or TdF preparation, not to mention the guys actually doing the data collection/analysis?

I think Carmichael is just the wallpaper. Ferrari is LA's real coach, but I don't think LA wants to attract too much attention to the extent of that relationship. Carmichael serves as a distraction.

Call me a cynic, but we're not getting the whole picture on LA's "adaptation to training stimuli". And, whatever that whole picture is, I'm willing to bet that Carmichael's not anything more that window dressing.

there I did it. You wouldn't use 'illegal training' in the 3-5 weeks leading to the tour as what illicit methods would be highly detectable. I'm no homer but this is bordering on tin foil hat-ism.

there I did it. You wouldn't use 'illegal training' in the 3-5 weeks leading to the tour as what illicit methods would be highly detectable. I'm no homer but this is bordering on tin foil hat-ism.

Cynic means to be "dog like". At least in the origin of the word....ANYWAY, there is a fallacy of any coach who has or claims to have (current Dr F or CC debacle) is that you have to ask the following:

If coach X has a Lance, why do they not have 10 or even 12 Lances since its all coaching right?? You get the "coach" and BOOM. The bottom line is, its all money. Remember we are talking about CC the man who also "trained" Marty Nothstein. (suuuuure)

no coach will have multiple Lance's as athletes with his raw talent, psychotic drive and genetic gifts are rare. Coaches optimize the talent they have and a good coach gets the most out of all their talent. Phil Jackson is a prime example. He can take top performers and get them to the next level. he can't make all of them Jordans but he makes Kobe the best Kobe he can be or Rodman the best Rodman he can be or Kerr or Paxson but he's not going to turn a Kerr or Paxson into an MJ.
also (and not to defend Carmichael whom I agree about his self promoting, but he does have a business to run) no trainer has multiple top level guys in any single discipline as it's a conflict of interest. You're not going to take on a client who comes to you and says "I need your help to beat LA" especially when LA is his meal ticket. I'm sure CTS has other top caliber athletes who swear by him (Alison Dunlap comes to mind first) but he's not going to have 2 marquee clients in competition with each other.
the fallacy is that without him LA wouldn't have won XYZ. I'm sure he would have found another trainer or another coach who'd have figured a program that would have brought him success. So trainers, when lucky enough to hook up with the marquee talent always use that success to build their business. This is just opportunism and good aggressive marketing. It doesn't matter if there are bones in the closet. eddie b does quite a lucrative training biz despite the fact that he earned his fame with the LA Olympic blood packed cycling squad

Back in 1998 when Lance said, "Hey, I'm quitting," he said it to CC. The guy who got him back on the bike and went up into the mountains outside of Boone, North Carolina to try and get his head back into competing was CC. The only guy who was on the road and actually saw the moment that Lance's flame rekindled when it was so close to flickering out all together was CC.

It's easy to discount what he has accomplished with Lance in many aspects. The contribution detailed above is not one of them. He was the only one there when the moment happened that has proven to be as close as cycling came to a much different evolution over the past 6 years. I think that speaks volumes for where his relationship with Lance really lies, and it's to his credit.

[QUOTE=rule]Back in 1998 when Lance said, "Hey, I'm quitting," he said it to CC. The guy who got him back on the bike and went up into the mountains outside of Boone, North Carolina to try and get his head back into competing was CC. The only guy who was on the road and actually saw the moment that Lance's flame rekindled when it was so close to flickering out all together was CC.
/QUOTE]

I think that's incorrect. Maybe I'm totally mixed up but I thought it was Bob Roll who was there riding with him? Was Carmichael there as well? Am I just completely mistaken?

Even if it were CC who helped get LA motivated to go to Boone, I'm not sure that's really relevant to the issue in discussing the aggressive marketing of his coaching ability.

LA has an army of people working on his bike, his wheels, his everything. Carmichael is the most visible. However, the man behind the curtain is still Ferrari, IMO.

Even if it were CC who helped get LA motivated to go to Boone, I'm not sure that's really relevant to the issue in discussing the aggressive marketing of his coaching ability.

LA has an army of people working on his bike, his wheels, his everything. Carmichael is the most visible. However, the man behind the curtain is still Ferrari, IMO.

Any evidence of this? Seeing officially all ties were cut last year after the Italian trial.

As far as all the credible sources go that I have seen, Carmichael did all the day to day coaching, and Ferrari was used as a consultant (by more then a few elite racers and teams actually). Then again, Lance used the so call "F1 team" approach of using a large team of experts as it suited him- his aero positioning and TT bike equipement is one area this is pubicly seen.

:If coach X has a Lance, why do they not have 10 or even 12 Lances since its all coaching right?? You get the "coach" and BOOM. (suuuuure)

That thing about putting out 500watts for an entire hour is one in 100 million

Don't forget about the other athletes at CTS:

George Hincappie, Dave Zabriskie, Mike Creed, Saul Raisin, Niki Gudex(hey..she looks good), Danny Pate, Will Frischkorn, Mari Holden, and whole list of good athletes...THen next year after I start racing CAT 5...you should be hearing of me :rolleyes:

Yeh...Bob rode with him and Carmichael was there also but not sure about him actually riding with him.

Rolle got dropped...the only guy that went with Lance to the top of Beech Mountain was CC. He followed along behind in a car.

And yeah, I think that what he did to help Lance during that time speaks volumes about the guy's coaching ability, for which he should be credited.

tin foil hat-ism.


I like that one. ;)

I need to add that to my repertoire which includes jackassery and crapulent.

or Lance wouldn't "Share the spotlight" with him.

Lance's history is (it seems to me) squashing anyone who uses his relationship to get more than they deserve.....yet he does nothing to discourage Chris's "self promotion" as you call it. I think CC was there for him during the bad times, and adds value now or Lance wouldn't waste his time.

Len

or Lance wouldn't "Share the spotlight" with him.

Lance's history is (it seems to me) squashing anyone who uses his relationship to get more than they deserve.....yet he does nothing to discourage Chris's "self promotion" as you call it. I think CC was there for him during the bad times, and adds value now or Lance wouldn't waste his time.

Len

Isn't Lance co-owner of CTS?

he's all or nothing with his friends. if you are the type 'who'll die for him' I'm sure he'll take good care of ya. CC has always been there so I assume they have that relationship.

Pilots may fly the planes, but air traffic controllers make sure they are working together and avoiding wrecks. Look at T-Mobile in comparison - loads of talent but not as well coached and not living up to their potential on paper.

Pilots may fly the planes, but air traffic controllers make sure they are working together and avoiding wrecks. Look at T-Mobile in comparison - loads of talent but not as well coached and not living up to their potential on paper.

There's a difference between a coach (or trainer) like Carmichael, Ferrari, Askendrup, or Crawford and the director sportifs (or managers) like Bruyneel, Riis, Saiz or Pevenage of cycling teams. I don't think too many DS's double as trainers. I think it's pretty standard for riders to hire their own coach if they have one, the DS's who manage the team don't typically have anything to do with that relationship. Sometimes it seems that the MDs for certain teams also train the team's riders.

There's a difference between a coach (or trainer) like Carmichael, Ferrari, Askendrup, or Crawford and the director sportifs (or managers) like Bruyneel, Riis, Saiz or Pevenage of cycling teams. I don't think too many DS's double as trainers. I think it's pretty standard for riders to hire their own coach if they have one, the DS's who manage the team don't typically have anything to do with that relationship. Sometimes it seems that the MDs for certain teams also train the team's riders.

Excellent points although I do think some of the coaches do offer advice, rightly or wrongly, on strategy to favor their atheletes' strengths and guard against known weaknesses.

Excellent points although I do think some of the coaches do offer advice, rightly or wrongly, on strategy to favor their atheletes' strengths and guard against known weaknesses.

I think trainers/coaches tell riders what to do to get in shape to accomplish whatever goals the rider/DS have laid out for the rider. The DS hires riders, picks riders for races, and determines team strategy for and during the races.

Charmicheal's role is to manage press releases and public relations while giving the appearance of being "Lance's trainer."

There's a huge marketing machine riding along with this team. If there weren't we'd never have coverage on OLN and "Road To The Tour" segments.

You'll note that Charmicheal provides segments on training and performance during each OLN bicyle racing program. It's all public relations and marketing.

I don't begrudge Lance or the team, its sponsors, and the whole crew their vested interests in marketing, advertising, and promotions. I'm rooting for Lance on this seventh Tour, and wish him and the team all the best. I'll put up with the marketing commercialsim, realizing that it's a inescapable aspect of the sport and modern media.

Advertising, marketing, commercial interests drive cycling -- Everywhere you look along the course and on the riders it's logos, names, banners, inflatable tea cups, brand names festooned on team cars, jerseys, bags, bottles . . .

Auto racing, rodeo, and any major league sport is driven the same way.

Charmicheal is just doing his job -- which is to keep the press informed as to Lance's preparation for the Tour. Sure, it could be more transparent . . .

no coach will have multiple Lance's as athletes with his raw talent, psychotic drive and genetic gifts are rare. Coaches optimize the talent they have and a good coach gets the most out of all their talent. Phil Jackson is a prime example. He can take top performers and get them to the next level. he can't make all of them Jordans but he makes Kobe the best Kobe he can be or Rodman the best Rodman he can be or Kerr or Paxson but he's not going to turn a Kerr or Paxson into an MJ.
also (and not to defend Carmichael whom I agree about his self promoting, but he does have a business to run) no trainer has multiple top level guys in any single discipline as it's a conflict of interest. You're not going to take on a client who comes to you and says "I need your help to beat LA" especially when LA is his meal ticket. I'm sure CTS has other top caliber athletes who swear by him (Alison Dunlap comes to mind first) but he's not going to have 2 marquee clients in competition with each other.
the fallacy is that without him LA wouldn't have won XYZ. I'm sure he would have found another trainer or another coach who'd have figured a program that would have brought him success. So trainers, when lucky enough to hook up with the marquee talent always use that success to build their business. This is just opportunism and good aggressive marketing. It doesn't matter if there are bones in the closet. eddie b does quite a lucrative training biz despite the fact that he earned his fame with the LA Olympic blood packed cycling squad

Here's an pretty technical article outlining Lances raw talent and genetic gifts. It appears that Hellen Keller could train Lance and claim success.

Isn't Lance co-owner of CTS?
I do know that he is part owner of the team that is now sponsored by Discovery.......I hadn't hears he was owner of CTS.

Len

I do know that he is part owner of the team that is now sponsored by Discovery.......I hadn't hears he was owner of CTS.

Len

Lance is part owner of CTS, as he provided the start up money for Carmichael to get the business going, so the better CC looks, the more money Lance could probably make from CTS. It's just good business.

He is part owner of the team as well.

no coach will have multiple Lance's as athletes with his raw talent, psychotic drive and genetic gifts are rare.

BS. Dr. Max Testa in Sacramento, CA is one such "coach",

Carmichael doesn't write Lance's program and has very little to do with his success on the bike, IMHO Ferrari still writes the program.

...not to mention the guys actually doing the data collection/analysis?
Huh? Lance is emailing CC the data and CC's doing the analysis.

There is a lot of interesting stuff about CC and Ferrari in Armstrong's War. Ferrari was also involved in testing of hincapie, The Floyd and others on the team. The best quote is when the author took a survery of various people around Lance regarding who was the real coach. The Floyd's response, with incredulous laughter - "you've talked to both of them. Who would you listen to?"

Others were less blunt and more cautious but the message was pretty clear. LA's relationship with CC and CTS is a business partnership, someone to do some of the grunt work of implementing and tracking what Dr. Evil devises, and little else. Reading what little Ferrari has published versus CC's work leads me to the same conclusion as Floyd with the same mocking laughter too. Trademarking every phrase that comes out of your mouth doesn't make any of it valuable.

It appears that Hellen Keller could train Lance and claim success.
Why slight Helen Keller? Given that Helen Keller excelled throughout her life at most things she attempted, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she proved to be an outstanding coach/trainer. She'd have been able to communicate through the internet as well as anyone. Or were you just naming a random dead person?

Trademarking every phrase that comes out of your mouth doesn't make any of it valuable.

When I noticed all the SS(TM) FP(TM), etc.....I was thinking..." that's ridiculous to trademark every single training procedure that uses names we use everyday." The program is good..but that is was just over the top nonsense.

Huh? Lance is emailing CC the data and CC's doing the analysis.

That CC is not LA's "main" trainer. CC and Cheryl Crow had words last year over CC wanting LA to wear his heart rate monitor while he slept to monitor his recovery. I guess she wanted to keep what was under the covers, under the covers. Again I believe that Ferrari was/is a consultant on some technical aspects of LA's training and not primary trainer.

I like that one. ;)

I need to add that to my repertoire which includes jackassery and crapulent.

Just don't use them here.


;)

BS. Dr. Max Testa in Sacramento, CA is one such "coach",

Carmichael doesn't write Lance's program and has very little to do with his success on the bike, IMHO Ferrari still writes the program.

Any proof of this to go against all of the in depth media reports in print and tv from multiple independant sources that directly say differently? Anything that disproves the very public divorce Lance made with him after the Italian trial outcome?

Ferrari was a consultant- very good at what he did, but a mere consultant nevertheless. And he worked with more then Lance. I would put him at the level of Cobb and other experts he has brought in with his budget.

Carmichael is sucessful because he is a good coach, worked with some of the best coaches the US has ever produced (like Eddy B) and has a good business model. He does write Lance's programs, but Lance obviously has a major say in their structure, planning and execution. As does his DS. It is a team approach, with Lance as the CEO and chairman. Carmichael is like an executive officer- important to the company, but replacable if need be. J. Bruneel is much more critical overall to Lance's sucess after his first Tour win.

Why slight Helen Keller? Given that Helen Keller excelled throughout her life at most things she attempted, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she proved to be an outstanding coach/trainer. She'd have been able to communicate through the internet as well as anyone. Or were you just naming a random dead person?

How much cycling experience or other sports training do you imagine Miss Keller had?
I wasn't slighting Miss Keller, I was slighting any coach who takes too much credit for Lances ability. I was going to say a blind chimp could train Lance, but then I'd risk offending Jane Goodall.

spikes in his HR for say about 6-8 minutes at night and 2 times a week it won't say much for his prowess ;o)

[QUOTE=rule]Back in 1998 when Lance said, "Hey, I'm quitting," he said it to CC. The guy who got him back on the bike and went up into the mountains outside of Boone, North Carolina to try and get his head back into competing was CC. The only guy who was on the road and actually saw the moment that Lance's flame rekindled when it was so close to flickering out all together was CC.
/QUOTE]

I think that's incorrect. Maybe I'm totally mixed up but I thought it was Bob Roll who was there riding with him? Was Carmichael there as well? Am I just completely mistaken?

...me. I was there, too. And I was at Woodstock.

Seriously, everyone involved with LA is just trying to ride the gravy train as long as possible. Luckily Lance seems to have more sense than celebrities like Mike Tyson, who basically get sucked dry and then thrown in the gutter...

As for Carmichael, it's kind of like being president during an economic boom. You might not have had all that much to do with it, but you're entitled to take credit for it. And the opposite is equally true.