Were you suprised that Lance was riding a new prototype madone? More on cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/tech/?id=/tech/2005/features/tour05/armstrong_light). An all carbon bonty fork too!

At a price of over $7500, Trek can kiss my a$$.

You can get the Scott CR-1 Team which is lighter and stiffer and equipe it with Campy components for way less than that thing. You'll have a bike that is far lighter and looks better and it's not as common as Treks which are everywhere.

You can get the Scott CR-1 Team which is lighter and stiffer and equipe it with Campy components for way less than that thing. You'll have a bike that is far lighter and looks better and it's not as common as Treks which are everywhere.


- Breaks easier too ;)
Try squeezing the TT with your hand. You can compress the Tube with a good squeeze.
Sounds like a safe bike to me. :rolleyes:

- Breaks easier too ;)
Try squeezing the TT with your hand. You can compress the Tube with a good squeeze.
Sounds like a safe bike to me. :rolleyes:

Mine doesn't. Plus it's stiffer and rides better than my Colnago C-50. Besides, the same dumb internet rumor was going around a few years ago about Cannondale forks--- you can squeeze them and make them compress. To my knowledge we have never had an outbreak of broken forks.

Also, I don't think the strength of the carbon tubes is in squeezing a small area. There are plenty of Al bikes that I have seen where you can squeeze the tubes but they still are plenty safe. And I'd be willing to bet that if you squeeze hard enough you can flex the almighty Trek too. But I'll keep my Scott and you can have your Trek with it's wooden hollow ride.

All, I know is, for $7,500, the bike better come with a scantily-clad podium girl.

- Breaks easier too ;)
Try squeezing the TT with your hand. You can compress the Tube with a good squeeze.
Sounds like a safe bike to me. :rolleyes:
I'm with max-q mine feels as solid as anyother bike I've ever ridden aka, no flexing toptube, stiffer than any carbon bike I've ever ridden, and rides nicer than any bike I've ever ridden. I'd take the scott over the madone any day, EVEN if they were the same price. I've had mine for about 6 months now, I'd recommend it to anyone, infact two teammates bought them after I did, one was very skeptical until she rode one, and the other one wanted it instantly.

Mine doesn't. Plus it's stiffer and rides better than my Colnago C-50. Besides, the same dumb internet rumor was going around a few years ago about Cannondale forks--- you can squeeze them and make them compress. To my knowledge we have never had an outbreak of broken forks.

Also, I don't think the strength of the carbon tubes is in squeezing a small area. There are plenty of Al bikes that I have seen where you can squeeze the tubes but they still are plenty safe. And I'd be willing to bet that if you squeeze hard enough you can flex the almighty Trek too. But I'll keep my Scott and you can have your Trek with it's wooden hollow ride.

- Wwwoooaaaa Tiger. Never said I owned a Trek, though I have had a few and they do have a somewhat dead ride. I ride a Look 555, not that it matters. ;)
I posted an observation I made. - True story : Same guy with the CR1 has a Strike MTB from Scott, in a fairly routine, harmless crash an XTR brake lever sliced open his TT like a can of Pepsi. - A 10 year old OCLV Fisher branded Trek I have survived a 100 ft. fall off a cliff, bounced off rocks and had the XT levers take 1/2 moon chips out of the TT on BOTH sides. The bike went to Trek and was given a clean bill of health and is still occaisionally ridden today. So I'd trust the guy's at Trek in making a sub-kilo frame anyday, they have been doing it a long time with some great products and race results.
Now....Who makes that Scott bike??? :D - Relax, it's called sarcasm. ;)

I'm with max-q mine feels as solid as anyother bike I've ever ridden aka, no flexing toptube, stiffer than any carbon bike I've ever ridden, and rides nicer than any bike I've ever ridden. I'd take the scott over the madone any day, EVEN if they were the same price. I've had mine for about 6 months now, I'd recommend it to anyone, infact two teammates bought them after I did, one was very skeptical until she rode one, and the other one wanted it instantly.

- Different strokes for different folks. - Said friend of mine with the CR1 sold it and bought a Calfee.
What's it mean? Nothing.

Trek doesn't have access to some special carbon secret. If that frame is sub 1kg in size 58, it's going to have compromises in wall thickness. Count on it being more susceptible to crash damage compared to a heavier frame.

- Wwwoooaaaa Tiger. Never said I owned a Trek, though I have had a few and they do have a somewhat dead ride. I ride a Look 555, not that it matters. ;)
I posted an observation I made. - True story : Same guy with the CR1 has a Strike MTB from Scott, in a fairly routine, harmless crash an XTR brake lever sliced open his TT like a can of Pepsi. - A 10 year old OCLV Fisher branded Trek I have survived a 100 ft. fall off a cliff, bounced off rocks and had the XT levers take 1/2 moon chips out of the TT on BOTH sides. The bike went to Trek and was given a clean bill of health and is still occaisionally ridden today. So I'd trust the guy's at Trek in making a sub-kilo frame anyday, they have been doing it a long time with some great products and race results.
Now....Who makes that Scott bike??? :D - Relax, it's called sarcasm. ;) And I've seen a Scott CR-1 ridden at the boulder roubaix.... A race where half the peloton is on cross bikes.

What does it mean, nothing.....

Those were custom and may have had extra layers of carbon for reinforcement as well.

Those were custom and may have had extra layers of carbon for reinforcement as well.
Ummm, the boulder roubaix is a local race, in boulder, colorado. It's part of a three stage race.

http://www.boulderbikerace.com/race/

Sorry.....I thought it was some typo for Paris - Roubaix :) In that race this year they were custom.

Were you suprised that Lance was riding a new prototype madone? More on cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/tech/?id=/tech/2005/features/tour05/armstrong_light). An all carbon bonty fork too!

It's nice to have some light choices that are not sloping top tube, which I personally despise (but different strokes and all that). Plus, a sloping tube bike needs a longer, heavier, seatpost, cancelling out some of the weight savings.

Is the price noted for a complete bike or just the frameset? It does not say.

What you are buying for the $7700 is:

- American design & manufacturing as opposed to Taiwanese. Take it for what it's worth, nothing wrong with Taiwanese design and especially manufacturing but you may want to be patriotic or support the American bike industry

- Ridiculously good warranty, the SSL has Trek's lifetime warranty and it would make sense that the SSLx will as well.

- Supporting the ridiculous tech effort that has gone into Lance Armstrong, USPS, and now Discovery Cycling. It sure looks like they spent more on research, wind tunnel testing, design, etc.. then anyone else over the last few years, the cost of the bike probably reflects this. If you are a Lance/Postal/Discovery fan you may see this as a plus, if not then the Trek is probably not the bike for you.

I would like to have one of these some day, though probably not the climbing bike, maybe not next year, but eventually I hope too. I think I can't stomach the cost of the full bike, I'll just buy the frameset. I have had 2 Trek frames, the first one broke after 5 years and they sent me a more expensive frame as a warranty replacement... that and the "Buy American" thing makes me want the Madone.

You know the bizarre thing, this bike is supposed to be REALLY special. They didn't even give them to the entire Discovery team. I was shocked when I heard they only gave them to Lance and a couple of the other top climbers.

- Supporting the ridiculous tech effort that has gone into Lance Armstrong, USPS, and now Discovery Cycling. It sure looks like they spent more on research, wind tunnel testing, design, etc.. then anyone else over the last few years, the cost of the bike probably reflects this.
Cervelo would probably dispute this, and it's certain they've shared much more of the information from wind tunnel and structural testing than Trek has.

Cervelo would probably dispute this, and it's certain they've shared much more of the information from wind tunnel and structural testing than Trek has.

Why on earth would they share the wind tunnel data just so competitors can use it? If Cervelo actually gave out any real info they'd be idiots. (Saying we made 1% improvement is not giving out real info if that's what you're referring to)

One thing we could say on Cervelo vs. Trek here is Zabriskie was more aero then Lance in the TdF prologue but not enough to overcome the power advantage? But much of that had to do with him being able to deal with a position lance couldn't.

And that is just the TT bikes. Measuring aerodynamic effects on the regular road bikes is probably way more of a gray area, each company could have a different viewpoint and it'd be hard to prove which one was better.

Anyway Cervelo is another big name company spending a lot on R&D and development. I'm sure they are good bikes too. They aren't cheap either are they? The R2.5 sounds like it is about $4000 for the frameset so it is right up there in price.

Why on earth would they share the wind tunnel data just so competitors can use it? If Cervelo actually gave out any real info they'd be idiots. (Saying we made 1% improvement is not giving out real info if that's what you're referring to)
If you want to know why, you'll have to ask them yourself. But why would they be idiots? Now that the P3C is on the market anyone can examine the fork-head tube geometry. Giving some results from wind tunnell testing doesn't help the competition since the results are plainly in view. As to sharing real information, how about qualitative results regarding the interaction of fork, wheel, and front brake. No, they didn't share any quantitative data, but for someone knowledgable in the field, they gave enough information to indicate the nature of the interaction so if someone wanted to develop a more aero fork-brake-wheel configuration they would know at the start how to direct the research. That's an enourmous help.

The R2.5 sounds like it is about $4000 for the frameset so it is right up there in price.
$2000

I am sure they have gigabytes of computer data. Anything we have seen is just marketing. All I see on the Cervelo website is the same old stuff every company has, "Our frame is X% faster at this distance TT", etc..

Even if you are an aero engineer it's still be a lot of work to take one of these frames and reverse engineer it. Maybe you could hope to just shamelessly rip off the shapes of your competitor but even a millimeter difference could kill the bike.

Whoever is better the two bikes are very different. If you are talking about dropping big cash at least Trek "won".

I am sure they have gigabytes of computer data. Anything we have seen is just marketing. All I see on the Cervelo website is the same old stuff every company has, "Our frame is X% faster at this distance TT", etc..

Even if you are an aero engineer it's still be a lot of work to take one of these frames and reverse engineer it. Maybe you could hope to just shamelessly rip off the shapes of your competitor but even a millimeter difference could kill the bike.

Whoever is better the two bikes are very different. If you are talking about dropping big cash at least Trek "won".
Don't drift off topic. The subject was "It sure looks like they [Trek] spent more on research, wind tunnel testing, design, etc.. then anyone else over the last few years, ..." and the point is there is no evidence to support that statement in light of the data Cervelo (as an example, there may be other manufacturers with equal or greater data) has indicated they have. If you're only looking at Cervelo's web site to get a view of their testing results, you're not looking in the right places. Gerard posts on several discussion boards and the Cervelo group at Yahoo. It's through those postings he's shared some of their test results. And while it may be a lot of work to reverse engineer a design, it's still much easier to do that and then understand the underlying principals than to develop a new design from first principals yourself. Look at what Trek did with the F1 project and the narrow bottom bracket shell last year.

I agree the bikes are very different and I'm certainly not saying one is better than the other.

What you are buying for the $7700 is:.

- Supporting the ridiculous tech effort that has gone into Lance Armstrong, USPS, and now Discovery Cycling. It sure looks like they spent more on research, wind tunnel testing, design, etc.. then anyone else over the last few years, the cost of the bike probably reflects this. If you are a Lance/Postal/Discovery fan you may see this as a plus, if not then the Trek is probably not the bike for you.

.

IMHO, paying 8 grand for frame and fork is just silly. What Trek is cashing in on is the incredible marketing windfall it has had for the past 7 years. All power to them. From what I can see, they seem like a great company, who make good products and treat their workers fairly.

But what it really comes down to is they have a ton of cash invested in LA...some of which they really would like to recover. I guess an analogy is when a NBA team jacks up ticket prices when they win the finals or sign LeBron James.

Let's face it, TREK needs to cash in NOW. Their reputation is solidified in the cycling industry. What they really want is to drive that point home further and become THE brand for all those cycling enthusiasts across the world with a bit of disposable income.

Trek, for better or worse, is the Borg of the cycling industry...resistance is futile.

It's currently $7700 for the complete bike with DA and ever crazy Carbon part they can stick on it and some trick wheels.

I don't know, it is just as exotic as all the stupid expensive Fondriests I see, etc.. it's just everyone sh*ts on it cause it's from an American company.

Not that I am saying it is reasonably priced, but at least it isn't $8000 for the frame & fork.

You can get a Giant TCR Advanced complete with D/A and weighs less than the Truk for $5000.00 and put the $2500.00 into a trip to the tour next year. The Advanced frame is lighter than the Truk and they have one that is even lighter the current model. Somewhere in the 870 gram range.

...the Hot wheels paint jobs don't do much to improve their image either.

I can't believe you actually bought the hype. A few years ago, 5900 was so special that only Lance had it, but now 5900 would be their low end carbon frame if it were still in their lineup. It's all marketing, my friend. The perceived specialness, the artificial improvement. Do you think they cannot afford to give one to all the Disco riders (lance's salary is like $5+ million a year, the cost differential of getting everyone a higher end frame is $10K max. You do the math.)? Or do you think they did not want the other Disco guys ride faster?

What you are buying for the $7700 is:
...
You know the bizarre thing, this bike is supposed to be REALLY special. They didn't even give them to the entire Discovery team. I was shocked when I heard they only gave them to Lance and a couple of the other top climbers.

So eager to attack. I didn't buy the hype, it's not like I bought one of them or will buy one of them.

For $7700 you'd better get somrthing else than house brand Bontrager parts. I would expect names like Deda,FSA, Mavic or Campy. The current models don't even have a carbon fork. Even the $10,000 model.

Yeah, last year I heard he earned 19 million...

It's nice to have some light choices that are not sloping top tube, which I personally despise (but different strokes and all that). Plus, a sloping tube bike needs a longer, heavier, seatpost, cancelling out some of the weight savings.

Is the price noted for a complete bike or just the frameset? It does not say.
It depends on the slope. Up to 6 or 7 degrees (which I think looks better anyhow, and I think fits better) a standard post still works.
At 13 degrees, yes, the longer seatpost is then heavier than the frame length it supplants.

As far as the Trek is concerened, for that money I'd pass....

Relax, not trying to attach you here. The point I was getting at was the thing about giving a specific model only to the top rider has more to do with marketing than with the team budget. That's exactly the point, makes you think that even the Giro winner can't get one of those, but you can readily buy one at your LBS for merely $7700.

By the way, you may have noticed Fondriest almost always has them on sale at 60% off. I wonder who really paid $3000+ for a top carbon, for example.

So eager to attack. I didn't buy the hype, it's not like I bought one of them or will buy one of them.

The thing that would keep me from getting a Trek is I can't get a "bro deal".

I could get a Fondriest at a total steal through our team sponsor. But I wouldn't be caught dead on a Fondriest. AFAICT they are far heavier and less proven then this Trek. We talk about the Fondriests all the time here as "doctor bikes". They are gorgeous but they seem unproven and the warranty, etc.. does not reflect the price.

I have a 2300 frameset I got free from Trek. I had a Giant TCR Composite last year that I got a "bro deal" on but I ended up selling that cause it wasn't quite right. If I could get a killer deal on a Madone frameset I'd probably give it a try.

About the only non "foo foo" brand I can get a good deal on is Giant. A lot of the people on this site seem to think anything made or claimed to be made in Europe is automatically better. For example I think it is pretty ridiculous to expect minor components from Bontrager to be inferior to Mavic, FSA, Deda, etc.. as someone pointed out. Bontrager components don't have a reputation for breaking and we know that these Treks can be built up to illegal weights with the Bonty parts.

Besides all the foo foo Euro parts are made in Taiwan anyway. At least with a Trek or Giant the whole thing is honest. I know FSA is just a shell company here in US, the parts are coming out of Taiwan just like everything else. Seeing as Mavic is french maybe they are actually made in France since they have such crazy labor rules.

Yeah, the Treks go pretty quick so no one is discounting them. I have ridden a few treks, including a 5900 for a good 2 years. A great bike. The Bonty parts are a bit rough, and industrial in terms of styling and graphics. Put a set of Race X Lites alongside some Ksyriums and you will know what I am saying. I am sure they will get the job done, but for $7700, come on...

Anyone notice some of the other things on the SSL that surely contribute to the sky high price?

- Wheels are carbon clinchers. Rims and hubs are carbon. This is probably the biggest contributer to the sky high price. The MSRP on these wheels is $2500-2750 depending on which version is actually on the SSL.

- The bike has carbon handlebars ($280), carbon seatpost ($100) , and carbon stem ($250!).

- Saddle is a carbon shell with hollow Ti rails. ($150)

- Whatever Trek pays for a DA 10 speed build kit. ($1000? Less?)

So they may be lowly bontrager components but they are still fairly trick and expensive.

Relax, not trying to attach you here. The point I was getting at was the thing about giving a specific model only to the top rider has more to do with marketing than with the team budget. That's exactly the point, makes you think that even the Giro winner can't get one of those, but you can readily buy one at your LBS for merely $7700.

By the way, you may have noticed Fondriest almost always has them on sale at 60% off. I wonder who really paid $3000+ for a top carbon, for example.[B]

Elviento,

Where can I find these Fondriest discounts?

Thanx,[SIZE=2]

Please, somebody tell me why would you pay $7700 for the Madone when you can get better fot THOUSANDS LESS!!! I'm thinking Record W/ Hyperions for that price and there should not be one Bontrager part on it. I guess some people are bigger suckers than others.

Anyone notice some of the other things on the SSL that surely contribute to the sky high price?

- Wheels are carbon clinchers. Rims and hubs are carbon. This is probably the biggest contributer to the sky high price. The MSRP on these wheels is $2500-2750 depending on which version is actually on the SSL.

- The bike has carbon handlebars ($280), carbon seatpost ($100) , and carbon stem ($250!).

- Saddle is a carbon shell with hollow Ti rails. ($150)

- Whatever Trek pays for a DA 10 speed build kit. ($1000? Less?)

So they may be lowly bontrager components but they are still fairly trick and expensive.



carbon seatpost that their TEAM choose not to use, carbon stem that half their TEAM does not use, carbon seat that NONE of their team uses, carbon hubs that are not the same that lance raced on the tour, and for that price you can get campy bora´s or even lightweigth wheels instead of "bonty".

but trek has done their job right, just build a bike as expensive as you can get so the "rich lance fanboys" can buy one, along with their XXXXXXXXX-LARGE team kit and take a ride on the park sunday afternoon.

Yeah, let me know where I can get a Top Carb frame at 60% off. I'll buy two right away and sell them at a profit to a couple of unsuspecting souls :)

Unproven...not sure what that is supposed to infer? I suggest try riding one first. McEwen sure liked his Lex with fake Merckx MXM decals.

If you pay top $$ for a Fondriest you are just as much of a sucker as someone who pays $7500 for a Madone.

No ifs ands or butts. There is nothing magic about Fondriests. It is AMAZING how the Trek is garbage but the Fondriest is great just cause it's from an Italian company.

God they have some great marketing going on!

Who said the Trek was garbage? I just don't find them interesting nor attractive to look at.

Money is what stands between a product and its potential owner. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't attribute a superior level of quality to it. If you want that specific frame you're going to have to hand over the asking amount. Simply getting what you want doesn't make you a sucker.

But I wouldn't be caught dead on a Fondriest. AFAICT they are far heavier and less proven then this Trek. We talk about the Fondriests all the time here as "doctor bikes". They are gorgeous but they seem unproven and the warranty, etc.. does not reflect the price.

I own 2 Fondriests, a P4 and a Top Level. I'm perfectly happy with both bikes. I have nothing but good things to say about Fondriest. They are far from unproven.

Some of the older frames are on discount. The Top Carbon IS NOT.

You can get the Scott CR-1 Team which is lighter and stiffer and equipe it with Campy components for way less than that thing. You'll have a bike that is far lighter and looks better and it's not as common as Treks which are everywhere.
Is there no frame, size for size, that is lighter than the Scott CR1 Team Issue?

Is there no frame, size for size, that is lighter than the Scott CR1 Team Issue?Not that I am aware of. Perhaps a custom crumpton, spin, parlee.

Not that I am aware of. Perhaps a custom crumpton, spin, parlee.
Thanks for the confirmation.

Is there no frame, size for size, that is lighter than the Scott CR1 Team Issue?
Litespeed Ghisallo 2006 770g in Medium?

Litespeed Ghisallo 2006 770g in Medium?Oh, true true. :D

I like the way the vortex looks too.... Weights a tad more though.

At a price of over $7500, Trek can kiss my a$$.
With a 12cm headtube on a 56cm toptube frame, Trek can kiss MY a$$

According to Trek's website, the Madone SSLx has a MSRP of $9,999 (not including shipping, handling or dealer set up of course). Aside from Robin Williams, does anyone really want to spend that much on one bike? Yeah, I'm sure a lot of folks here have a steed of bikes worth more than $10k but one bike - ouch!Plus it's a trek, now I'm sure it's a nice bike, but if your laying down that kind of cash, it better be something awfully special, and very, very, rare.

According to Trek's website, the Madone SSLx has a MSRP of $9,999 (not including shipping, handling or dealer set up of course). Aside from Robin Williams, does anyone really want to spend that much on one bike? Yeah, I'm sure a lot of folks here have a steed of bikes worth more than $10k but one bike - ouch!

According to Trek's website, the Madone SSLx has a MSRP of $9,999 (not including shipping, handling or dealer set up of course). Aside from Robin Williams, does anyone really want to spend that much on one bike? Yeah, I'm sure a lot of folks here have a steed of bikes worth more than $10k but one bike - ouch!
I have a bike that's over $10,000 but it's a hell of a lot better (and lighter) than that POS. Now that Trek has an all carbon fork do you think in another 5 years they will "invent" carbon dropouts too (to the utter amazement of their Bicycling reader fan base)? Their marketing, and plain old luck, in hitching their wagon to the LA express was genius, but their technology is so far behind the curve you can barely see it from here.

One important question comes to my mind from viewing this thread: what kinda RETARD would ride a scott cr-1 at the boulder roubaix??? must be a coool guy..... :rolleyes: