When Al Sharpton shows up the game is over. I'm guessing Jesse Jackson and Barabara Streisand will be down in short order to further muck up this lady's protest.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/28/crawford.sharpton/index.html

I swear, this whole Crawford campout has been like watching an episode of South Park write itself.

When Al Sharpton shows up the game is over. I'm guessing Jesse Jackson and Barabara Streisand will be down in short order to further muck up this lady's protest.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/28/crawford.sharpton/index.html

People you don't want to see...

Kind of like...

You know it is going to be a bad day when Jim Cantore is 3 blocks from your house.

In the news this weekend was a Bush supporter - I didn't get her name - she was one of the "Cindy Sheehan does not speak for me" folks. She is a mom whose son had returned from Iraq in one piece. I'll say Cindy Sheehan doesn't speak for her!

Here is a Mom who lost a son, who stands in the middle of the road.......
.
.Velma Moss, of Houston, isn't about to join Sheehan's protest movement, but she said she understands what moves the grieving mother. She finds herself trying to make sense of the death of her son, Army Sgt. Keelan Moss, 23.

Moss' son was killed along with seven other soldiers when their helicopter was hit by a missile fired from insurgents near Fallujah in November 2003.

"I don't think he died in vain — and I guess I'm contradicting myself — but I don't know why we went over there," said Moss, a medical transcriptionist. "But in order for me to make sense of it, I can't just say he died for nothing. So I have to say he died for a reason, but the reason he went over there in the first place, I fail to understand that."

Moss said she is just trying to deal with her loss as best she can and move on with her life. She can't watch the news about Iraq, she said, because it's still so painful. But she said she can't criticize Sheehan for what she is doing.

"She has the right to say whatever she feels," she said. "She's grieving, and we all grieve differently. So maybe that is what she needs to do to get through the day. Who has the right to say she is wrong? Everybody didn't choose that path, but you do what you have to do. This is America, and she has the right. That's why we live in America."

Here is a Mom who lost a son, who stands in the middle of the road.......
.
.Velma Moss, of Houston, isn't about to join Sheehan's protest movement, but she said she understands what moves the grieving mother. She finds herself trying to make sense of the death of her son, Army Sgt. Keelan Moss, 23.

Moss' son was killed along with seven other soldiers when their helicopter was hit by a missile fired from insurgents near Fallujah in November 2003.

"I don't think he died in vain — and I guess I'm contradicting myself — but I don't know why we went over there," said Moss, a medical transcriptionist. "But in order for me to make sense of it, I can't just say he died for nothing. So I have to say he died for a reason, but the reason he went over there in the first place, I fail to understand that."

Moss said she is just trying to deal with her loss as best she can and move on with her life. She can't watch the news about Iraq, she said, because it's still so painful. But she said she can't criticize Sheehan for what she is doing.

"She has the right to say whatever she feels," she said. "She's grieving, and we all grieve differently. So maybe that is what she needs to do to get through the day. Who has the right to say she is wrong? Everybody didn't choose that path, but you do what you have to do. This is America, and she has the right. That's why we live in America."

I think she sums up how everyone feels. I feel sorry for Cindy Sheehan, but she is being used for political capital just like the other moms who are protesting against her. If something was to happen to me while I was over there, I would hope people would remember who I was and what I believed in and leave it at that. Capitalizing on a mother's grief is wrong on both sides. Al Sharpton is the political equivalent of the fat lady.

When Al Sharpton shows up the game is over. I'm guessing Jesse Jackson and Barabara Streisand will be down in short order to further muck up this lady's protest.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/28/crawford.sharpton/index.html
yea-he and cochrane only show up for lost causes...oh,well...a little fire & brimstone sermon-ing is a 'healthy' thing I 'spose...:rolleyes:

If something was to happen to me while I was over there, I would hope people would remember who I was and what I believed in and leave it at that.

Right-on Bigbill.

If something happened to me over there I'd be dead, and I would no longer have an ego that had to worry about what anyone anywhere thought of me.

Cindy Sheehan has an ego that's being fed by the people in this country that want the United States to fail. They want the US to fail in helping people live in freedom, so that we can live in peace. I personally have a hard time believing anyone could be as stupid and selfish as those that are behind this circus.

Everybody dies. A select few amongst us die so that the remaining can live peaceful and free lives. That select few are the greatest among us. Cindy Sheehan's son was one of those few. Cindy is a fool in the real sense of that word. She is being fooled by the least of us.

Her son has my gratitude. She has my pity. Martin Sheen has my contempt.

When Al Sharpton shows up the game is over. I'm guessing Jesse Jackson and Barabara Streisand will be down in short order to further muck up this lady's protest.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/28/crawford.sharpton/index.html
LOL! I saw the title in the New Posts list and thought, "Hmmm, he must be talking about Al Sharpton." I mean the thought was instantaneous.

Needless to say I spit some Diet Coke on my screen when I clicked on the thread. Thanks for that. :D

LOL! I saw the title in the New Posts list and thought, "Hmmm, he must be talking about Al Sharpton." I mean the thought was instantaneous.

Needless to say I spit some Diet Coke on my screen when I clicked on the thread. Thanks for that. :D

Damn. I thought it was Jesse Jackson when I saw the title.

If Johnny Cochran shows up in Crawford, we all have a problem. He's dead!

Cindy Sheehan has an ego that's being fed by the people in this country that want the United States to fail. They want the US to fail in helping people live in freedom, so that we can live in peace. I personally have a hard time believing anyone could be as stupid and selfish as those that are behind this circus.

What? I thought we went over there to rid Iraq of WMDs? Since none were found it turned into a freedom thing. Now the region is more unstable than it ever was thanks to...well you know. I personally don't think our military people dying for their freedom is worth it and I don't feel any safer now either.

Did anyone see the story on Al's driver being arrested for driving the good reverend at 110 mph on I-35. I guess he was trying to get him to the airport on time and was weaving in and out of traffic while the police were chasing. Having grown up in Ellis County, TX, I am suprised he didn't get shot. The story is pretty good but I saw it on the Fox site and didn't want to link a fox story and then catch crap about fox.

you 2 are under 40. sign up, they are lookin' for a few good men. or are you the "I can help more form here types"

sorry I'd be pissed if my kid signed up to get OBL and Al Qaeda (Noble cause) and went and died for the Oil Industry on a friggin boldfaced chickenhawk lie.

you 2 are under 40. sign up, they are lookin' for a few good men. or are you the "I can help more form here types"

sorry I'd be pissed if my kid signed up to get OBL and Al Qaeda (Noble cause) and went and died for the Oil Industry on a friggin boldfaced chickenhawk lie.

Which two are you talking about? I have been deployed to the ME three times since 9/11. Got the medals and ribbons to prove it. Haven't been shot at, but not really disappointed about that. Still a veteran.

you 2 are under 40. sign up, they are lookin' for a few good men. or are you the "I can help more form here types"

sorry I'd be pissed if my kid signed up to get OBL and Al Qaeda (Noble cause) and went and died for the Oil Industry on a friggin boldfaced chickenhawk lie.

Are you this bitter and judgmenental because you didn't serve? If you ggogle Cindy Sheehans son, the information seems to indicate that she is speaking for herself and not her son. All the bitter hyperpole you use to describe this conflict, the causes and the goals are as far from the truth as her grief has led her. You really should find a way to reconcile your guilt, your country didn't miss you, good men stood up and took your place. Good men always do.

now I can understand the ribbons but what medals? if you haven't been shot at that would pretty much mean no purple heart or any of the 'herosim under fire' medals.
just curious as I'm not up on all the current heraldy and regalia.
are you Navy, Air Force?

Right-on Bigbill.

If something happened to me over there I'd be dead, and I would no longer have an ego that had to worry about what anyone anywhere thought of me.

Cindy Sheehan has an ego that's being fed by the people in this country that want the United States to fail. They want the US to fail in helping people live in freedom, so that we can live in peace. I personally have a hard time believing anyone could be as stupid and selfish as those that are behind this circus.

Everybody dies. A select few amongst us die so that the remaining can live peaceful and free lives. That select few are the greatest among us. Cindy Sheehan's son was one of those few. Cindy is a fool in the real sense of that word. She is being fooled by the least of us.

Her son has my gratitude. She has my pity. Martin Sheen has my contempt.

I beg to differ that Sheehan has an "ego" as you assert. She doesn't like the war, her son is dead because of it, and now she has turned herself into an anti war person. What's wrong with that? Do you actually LIKE war? If so, as someone else mentioned, and if you're not signed up already, the military are looking for some good men to serve, and from what I hear, the enrollment is down. So sign on up chum. You're welcome to it. Cindy Sheehan doesn't want to US to fail, at the war on terror. She doesn't want the US to fail at all, and neither do I just because I'm against the war in Iraq and everything that it stands for. It's funny that Bush calls this the war on terror, since there really weren't large numbers of terrorists in Iraq to begin with, but now, damn, it's terrorist training 101 and advanced classes over there. There are a lot better ways to fight the war on terrorism, and invading a country that really had no ties to Islamic fundamentalists is not one of them. Just because Bush, and his former PNAC cronies were now in power, they were aching to take out Iraq so they could get their hands on the goods. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as planned, and now we're ****ing in a quagmire over there, and won't be coming back anytime soon. I'm betting that we will have permanent US bases in Iraq by the time this is all over.

The one thing that you are right about is that everyone dies. Tell me how Iraq was threatening the soveireignty of the United States again when we invaded them in a war of choice?? I'm curious as to how you think the nation of Iraq was seriously a threat to the freedom of people within the United States.. This should be interesting to hear... Cindy Sheehan is protesting for what SHE believes in, and yeah, other people have made her a political tool, but I think she is using them to get her word out, and her protest out as well, and she's doing a damn fine job of it.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time, if it hasn't happened yet, for people like you and your ilk to start calling anti war protesters un-patriotic and traitors, and other stupid things you can come up with that make absolutely no sense at all. So just throw on that blindfold my friend, and follow the fearless leader AKA George W. Bush until he puts this country into the gutter. Oops, too late, we're already there.

Take care Mr. Sheep.

Are you this bitter and judgmenental because you didn't serve? If you ggogle Cindy Sheehans son, the information seems to indicate that she is speaking for herself and not her son. All the bitter hyperpole you use to describe this conflict, the causes and the goals are as far from the truth as her grief has led her. You really should find a way to reconcile your guilt, your country didn't miss you, good men stood up and took your place. Good men always do.
As much as I think the Sheehan thing has turned into a 3 ring circus, I still think we were lied to about the reasons we went to Iraq, how long the conflict would take, and what it would accomplish. As good as the spin on this war has been from the GWB camp it still can't turn a pig into a supermodel. The war was a big mistake and we need to come up with a viable exit strategy yesterday. Not saying we need to get out tomorrow, but for gods sake--let's figure out how to get out of this mess as soon as possible and bring our troops home from that godforsaken desert.

now I can understand the ribbons but what medals? if you haven't been shot at that would pretty much mean no purple heart or any of the 'herosim under fire' medals.
just curious as I'm not up on all the current heraldy and regalia.
are you Navy, Air Force?

I have been in the Navy for 20 years. I have medals and ribbons for heroism, I just had them all before the wars. I spent 15 years in submarines and did lots of stuff during and after the cold war. Stuff that has to stay in my head forever. In OEF and OIF, I was stationed on a carrier launching airstrikes. I stood Officer of the Deck and pretty much kept the ship pointed into the wind for 4 hours at a time. Plenty of peril on the high seas without being shot at.

Are you this bitter and judgmenental because you didn't serve? If you ggogle Cindy Sheehans son, the information seems to indicate that she is speaking for herself and not her son. All the bitter hyperpole you use to describe this conflict, the causes and the goals are as far from the truth as her grief has led her. You really should find a way to reconcile your guilt, your country didn't miss you, good men stood up and took your place. Good men always do.

Not sure I got that from his post, OK, maybe bitter... I think he comes by this from people talking about how "just" this war is, and they can't stand behind it completely. They don't want to serve, they just want to tote the party line. And yeah, I think we all have a right to be bitter about this war of CHOICE. Remember, choice being the operative word. We can go back and forth between everyone here, but it really boils down to we didn't NEED to go to war, but we CHOSE to go to war in this case. Don't pull this patriotic BS out of the bag either because someone didn't serve in the military. I'm sick of idiots (not so much you but there are others) hiding behind the flag and wrapping themselves in the Bush administration fiasco that Iraq has become.

If you think other people in the world know Cindy Sheehan's son better than she did, I'll just have to laugh in your face. She is speaking for herself, and for her son, who unfortunately because of Bush the Murderer, can no longer speak for himself.

when the Air Force Academy Recruiters lied through their teeth to me at 17 and I called them on it my future serving the country in such a way was pretty much done.

and you can deny it all ya want, Iraq was fought over a frickin lie. everything points to it and I'm bummed everytime we lose a good man to a lie. sorry I have more respect for our fighting men and women to wish them to sacrifice themselves for the United States of Halliburton.

and as far as using someones death to forward a political cause

uh Terry Schiavo

uh 9/11. sorry those folks died due to Al Q which we went after in Afghanistan (which I support). Iraq had nothing to do with it. We're never gonna move this debate forward (I agree) as you still believe the fantasy that was perped in 2002-2003.

As much as I think the Sheehan thing has turned into a 3 ring circus, I still think we were lied to about the reasons we went to Iraq, how long the conflict would take, and what it would accomplish. As good as the spin on this war has been from the GWB camp it still can't turn a pig into a supermodel. The war was a big mistake and we need to come up with a viable exit strategy yesterday. Not saying we need to get out tomorrow, but for gods sake--let's figure out how to get out of this mess as soon as possible and bring our troops home from that godforsaken desert.

I want out of it as badly as you do. I just don't believe the quick solution or clean disengagement is reality. Sadly, we are here for a long time to come. I believe completely that this war was coming now or later. I believe it is a regional conflict and this is only one phase of it. To my mind, now is too late but much better than a few years later.

[QUOTE=Snakebit]I want out of it as badly as you do. I just don't believe the quick solution or clean disengagement is reality.

I actually am leaning to send more and get it over with. but it doesn't change the fact that the leader of personal accountability refuses to be accountable. his refusal to listen to the experts, the advancement of line toers, the firing of the general who said 'send me 300K"
(and of course who's not going to think 130K was enough after that?) this entire quagmire
was caused by his arrogance and overconfidence which is usually the downfall of every despot.

[QUOTE=Snakebit]I want out of it as badly as you do. I just don't believe the quick solution or clean disengagement is reality.

I actually am leaning to send more and get it over with. but it doesn't change the fact that the leader of personal accountability refuses to be accountable. his refusal to listen to the experts, the advancement of line toers, the firing of the general who said 'send me 300K"
(and of course who's not going to think 130K was enough after that?) this entire quagmire
was caused by his arrogance and overconfidence which is usually the downfall of every despot.

He has more than one expert and we may not hear the input he is listening to. I have no idea how many people we need in theater or whether it would do any good to flood the country with American soldiers. For better or worse, this has entered the political stage and is going forward on that basis. I have seen the criticism here of the new Constitution and also listened to comentators with a more optimistic view. The President places a great deal of importance on it so I think I will wait a while and see how it plays out.

Bush has received criticism for firing people who disagree with him, I believe Colin Powel was the highest ranking of that group. Still, he has a plan and he has a right to put in place people who will execute his orders and follow that plan. That seems to be what he has done. Lets all hope he is right and you are very far off in your conclusions and opinions.

Well, I guess the war mongers have my pity. They are so deluded on this subject I don't know if there's any hope for them. They have been so frightened by 9/11 that they are running like lemmings in whatever direction GWB points them to and are willing to sacrifice America's finest in a war justified with lies.

jbrumm, you must get all your news from that "fair and balanced" channel because they are the only ones I can think of who would characterize the anti war movement as a pro failure movement. No one, I'm sure not even you, wants a single US soldier to have died in a cause deemed unworthy.

I guess the crux of the matter is whether we consider it worthwhile to sacrifice American lives in this war. Many citizens are up in arms over this war because it's really looking like our soldiers have died so that companies like Bechtel and Halliburton as well as the oil companies could score beaucoup bucks.

As far as Mrs. Sheehan's ego goes, it looks like the folks who engage in cutting this grieving mother to pieces are the ones with the ego problem. The pro war people just can't get over the fact that no one, be it a news organization, or a blogger or whatever, can speak for this dead soldier better than his family.

You say that Mrs. Sheehan has been fooled by the least of us? To more and more Americans it is looking like the pro war set are the ones that have been fooled by the least of us. They are the ones that have lined up blindly behind the Bush Administration, willing to believe anything that W tosses their way and are happy to forget everything W wants them to forget. Were you guys so threatened by Saddam Hussein that you thought that by invading Iraq we would put an end to Saddam's plans for invading the US and disrupting our "peaceful and free lives" (your words, jbrumm).

Oh and you've got a lot of nerve referring to the mother of a dead soldier as a fool and no matter which side of this war you are on; it is disrespectful plain and simple. Take a good look in the mirror, jbrumm. Just because Mrs. Sheehan has gotten out of the jack-booted line headed straight off the cliff and stood up for her beliefs doesn't mean that she is the fool. Indeed, she is awake. If you disagree with the Sheehan Family's stance on this war you are free to respectfully disagree with them but there's no need to disrespect them.

I beg to differ that Sheehan has an "ego" as you assert. She doesn't like the war, her son is dead because of it, and now she has turned herself into an anti war person. What's wrong with that? Do you actually LIKE war? If so, as someone else mentioned, and if you're not signed up already, the military are looking for some good men to serve, and from what I hear, the enrollment is down. So sign on up chum. You're welcome to it. Cindy Sheehan doesn't want to US to fail, at the war on terror. She doesn't want the US to fail at all, and neither do I just because I'm against the war in Iraq and everything that it stands for. It's funny that Bush calls this the war on terror, since there really weren't large numbers of terrorists in Iraq to begin with, but now, damn, it's terrorist training 101 and advanced classes over there. There are a lot better ways to fight the war on terrorism, and invading a country that really had no ties to Islamic fundamentalists is not one of them. Just because Bush, and his former PNAC cronies were now in power, they were aching to take out Iraq so they could get their hands on the goods. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as planned, and now we're ****ing in a quagmire over there, and won't be coming back anytime soon. I'm betting that we will have permanent US bases in Iraq by the time this is all over.

The one thing that you are right about is that everyone dies. Tell me how Iraq was threatening the soveireignty of the United States again when we invaded them in a war of choice?? I'm curious as to how you think the nation of Iraq was seriously a threat to the freedom of people within the United States.. This should be interesting to hear... Cindy Sheehan is protesting for what SHE believes in, and yeah, other people have made her a political tool, but I think she is using them to get her word out, and her protest out as well, and she's doing a damn fine job of it.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time, if it hasn't happened yet, for people like you and your ilk to start calling anti war protesters un-patriotic and traitors, and other stupid things you can come up with that make absolutely no sense at all. So just throw on that blindfold my friend, and follow the fearless leader AKA George W. Bush until he puts this country into the gutter. Oops, too late, we're already there.

Take care Mr. Sheep.

...and was rejected for age. Did you apply? I appreciate you rolling out the ol' tried and true "cotcha line" whenever anyone that seems to be pro-war writes something that ruffles your feathers. There isn't much in the way for you to go on the subject.

You're angry because Bush is doing something about the problem instead of talking about it. The worse possible scenario for you is for a republican president to actually get something done. Cindy is being used. She's being used because there are so many people that all so easily led by the popular media. Everybody dies. Everybody. Some do so in a cause bigger than themselves. Too bad you can't see things as they are not in the way that someone else has couched things for you. It's all over your language, Halliburton, quagmire? Waht the hell do you know about Halliburton? The answer is nothing or you're a complete fool. Cindy's family isn't behind her either, but that's okay as she's got Al Sharpton and Martin Sheen. What a joke.

Keep thinking this whole problem is about Bush, Saddam, WMD, and what you call lies. Keep thinking that, but you'll miss the real point of it all.

Everybody dies. A select few amongst us die so that the remaining can live peaceful and free lives. That select few are the greatest among us. Cindy Sheehan's son was one of those few. Cindy is a fool in the real sense of that word. She is being fooled by the least of us.
.

I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands and thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. (General Sherman)

Is the war so far away that you cannot see that it is made up of people with very human faces?

"The goal is not to die for your country it is to make the bastard die for his." (Patton)

It is up to the living to extoll the virtues of war...because the dead cannot speak. Perhaps if the living did not think it so glorious to die in war...there would be fewer of them.

"Men love war, if they didn't they would have stopped long ago." (Reds)

I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands and thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. (General Sherman)

Is the war so far away that you cannot see that it is made up of people with very human faces?

"The goal is not to die for your country it is to make the bastard die for his." (Patton)

It is up to the living to extoll the virtues of war...because the dead cannot speak. Perhaps if the living did not think it so glorious to die in war...there would be fewer of them.

"Men love war, if they didn't they would have stopped long ago." (Reds)

My hunch is that you identify with the least of us. Feel free to do so in your own words next time.

"A select few amongst us die so that the remaining can live peaceful and free lives."
.
How many more years and how many more American lives will this take exactly ? 5 years ?........3,000 more American deaths ?.......
A select few amongst us change their reasons for this war every time the wind changes directions. A select few amongst us believe that is an honor for others to die for our country no matter how lame the reason is.

You're angry because Bush is doing something about the problem instead of talking about it.
LOL!!!!

Ummm..Hmmmm....people commit acts of terrorism b/c they're p*ssed off @ someone or something--yes????

-How many thousands of reasons has President Bozo the Clown given most every country in the world some reason to (@ the very least ask 'what the f*ck is his problem?) want to kill people? usually US citizens/troops?

LOL!!!!

Ummm..Hmmmm....people commit acts of terrorism b/c they're p*ssed off @ someone or something--yes????

-How many thousands of reasons has President Bozo the Clown given most every country in the world some reason to (@ the very least ask 'what the f*ck is his problem?) want to kill people? usually US citizens/troops?

The fight in Iraq is not about the American presence. It is about control and preventing a strong government to grow from the seeds planted. The targets are more often Iraqi citizens than Americans. They are paying a horrible price for the chance to have the freedom and choice that liberals keep saying they don't understand or deserve. Still, they keep stepping up and paying. I suspect they understand the value better than some of us.

The fight in Iraq is not about the American presence. It is about control and preventing a strong government to grow from the seeds planted. The targets are more often Iraqi citizens than Americans. They are paying a horrible price for the chance to have the freedom and choice that liberals keep saying they don't understand or deserve. Still, they keep stepping up and paying. I suspect they understand the value better than some of us.
Considering that no one (even warm-hearted conservative types:rolleyes: ) has been even trying to keep track of the number of Iraqi casualties...only the IRC/RC has estimates, and they've been condemned as being anti-American for not running along and not saying anything about human rights abuses....well-no one gets out of this clean-do they?

.....and it is about an American occupation when many parts of Baghdad (IIRC) still don't have running water/reliable electricity/safety from being blown up/hospital care/etc....----when the occupiers(us), can't even fund their own body armor--let alone the some $9 billion that 'disappeared' and has not been seen.

This is a half-@$$ed micro managed war methinks


Oh-FYFR, in Russia people are getting nostalgic over the USSR-under tyranny everyone was guarranteed a job and a living; vs. living in fear of being killed/extorted by the mob and not enough food to cook with.

Considering that no one (even warm-hearted conservative types:rolleyes: ) has been even trying to keep track of the number of Iraqi casualties...only the IRC/RC has estimates, and they've been condemned as being anti-American for not running along and not saying anything about human rights abuses....well-no one gets out of this clean-do they?

.....and it is about an American occupation when many parts of Baghdad (IIRC) still don't have running water/reliable electricity/safety from being blown up/hospital care/etc....----when the occupiers(us), can't even fund their own body armor--let alone the some $9 billion that 'disappeared' and has not been seen.

This is a half-@$$ed micro managed war methinks


Oh-FYFR, in Russia people are getting nostalgic over the USSR-under tyranny everyone was guarranteed a job and a living; vs. living in fear of being killed/extorted by the mob and not enough food to cook with.

One doesn't need an accurate tally to listen to the reports on a daily basis. Even Fox tells you how namy Iraqi civillians and American soldiers wre killed or injured in the bomb blasts. They also give
locations and some of them are just civilian targets.

This fight is not about the American occupation, it is simply about control. We are the resisting force to their takeover. The pace of rebuilding is effected by the bombs and murders. Which hospitals are not operating? there are said to be more schools and hospitals operating now than under Saddam.

I heared the same Russian complaints all my life while communism was the way of life. Ask the Hungarians or the Poles if they want to go back. How many of the sattelite countries are nostalgic?

...and was rejected for age. Did you apply? I appreciate you rolling out the ol' tried and true "cotcha line" whenever anyone that seems to be pro-war writes something that ruffles your feathers. There isn't much in the way for you to go on the subject.

You're angry because Bush is doing something about the problem instead of talking about it. The worse possible scenario for you is for a republican president to actually get something done. Cindy is being used. She's being used because there are so many people that all so easily led by the popular media. Everybody dies. Everybody. Some do so in a cause bigger than themselves. Too bad you can't see things as they are not in the way that someone else has couched things for you. It's all over your language, Halliburton, quagmire? Waht the hell do you know about Halliburton? The answer is nothing or you're a complete fool. Cindy's family isn't behind her either, but that's okay as she's got Al Sharpton and Martin Sheen. What a joke.

Keep thinking this whole problem is about Bush, Saddam, WMD, and what you call lies. Keep thinking that, but you'll miss the real point of it all.

Haven't you read Magnolia's post? Why should he in enlist when he is against the war? You are amongst those on this board that are blindly gung ho for this disaster so he's asking you.

And exactly what is the problem that Bush is doing something about? Osama? Wake up, buddy. I don't know how to break the news to you but he's NOT in Iraq. WMD's? Hate to be the one to break the news to you again, but there are no WMDs there. Freedom for the Iraqi people? Gimme a break, they couldn't get up the nerve to take the yoke of Saddam's rule off of their own necks and fight for it themselves. Terrorism? It is our presence in Iraq that has turned the place into a suicide bomber's convention.

I ask again, exactly what is the problem that Bush is as you say, "doing something about". I would really like to know, because then we might get to the bottom of what Cindy Sheehan wants to know and that is: Exactly what is the noble cause her son and so many other soldiers died for? Well jbrumm, what it is?

And while we're at it why don't we ask the other question Cindy Sheehan wants to ask GWB: If this cause is so noble why aren't his twins in Iraq fighting for that oh, so noble cause? Methinks it’s because the cause ain’t that noble. I mean why send those two little darlin’s off to fight a war for daddy’s fat cat friends when they can be at home gettin’ drunk in a trailer park.

If you're so wise to all of this why don't you enlighten the rest of us? Why don't you undo all the so-called lies that our puppetmasters have been feeding us. Please jbrumm I beg of you, save our wretched liberal souls!

I want out of it as badly as you do. I just don't believe the quick solution or clean disengagement is reality. Sadly, we are here for a long time to come. I believe completely that this war was coming now or later. ............

You know, snake, I'm just old enough to remember when LBJ said the exact same thing about Vietnam. So we wasted another 5 years on that stupid war, and in the end, we abandoned them as well.

We've lost this war. We need to get out now.

Does anyone want some more stuffing?

"A select few amongst us die so that the remaining can live peaceful and free lives."
.
How many more years and how many more American lives will this take exactly ? 5 years ?........3,000 more American deaths ?.......
A select few amongst us change their reasons for this war every time the wind changes directions. A select few amongst us believe that is an honor for others to die for our country no matter how lame the reason is.

Another question is how many more human lives, American and others, are at risk 5 to 10 years down the road if the Middle East doesn't change? How many lives have been lost to mad men with political designs fed by religious fervor already. We lost over 3000 in one day to these people you feel should be left to their own designs. Because you underestimate the threat and danger doesn't make it any less.

My hunch is that you identify with the least of us. Feel free to do so in your own words next time.


My hunch is that you stepped over the line with your comments about a mother of a dead soldier...

I often feel free to use my own words...but having not participated in wars, I thought it best to quote from a couple that had...and they seem to disagree with your glorification of the battlefield.

You keep using that metaphor of the least of us...but really what the hell are you trying to say exactly...disagree and you shall be diminished by decree? "I disagree"...well..."you are now the least of us." (with pointed finger outstretched from on high I can only presume) I tell you what maybe you should quote more not less, because your metaphor is certainly not, "it was the best of times it was the worst of times."

Another question is how many more human lives, American and others, are at risk 5 to 10 years down the road if the Middle East doesn't change? How many lives have been lost to mad men with political designs fed by religious fervor already. We lost over 3000 in one day to these people you feel should be left to their own designs. Because you underestimate the threat and danger doesn't make it any less.
Snake, as I've said B4 (w/no intent to mock those who died), more people die on a daily basis from both car accidents, or food poisoning, or lung cancer-than died in 911. All of these are a h^ll of alot easier to prevent than any terrorist attack

There are many things this admin has demonstrated it cares alot more about than your personal safety.

I want out of it as badly as you do. I just don't believe the quick solution or clean disengagement is reality. Sadly, we are here for a long time to come. I believe completely that this war was coming now or later. I believe it is a regional conflict and this is only one phase of it. To my mind, now is too late but much better than a few years later.
Do you think most of the people that support the war believe as you do? That we are over there for much more than Iraq? That next it will be Iran, Venezuela...whatever? Do you think GWB would have gotten near as much support if he had levelled with the public from the start and told them his real agenda?

My hunch is that you stepped over the line with your comments about a mother of a dead soldier...

I often feel free to use my own words...but having not participated in wars, I thought it best to quote from a couple that had...and they seem to disagree with your glorification of the battlefield.

You keep using that metaphor of the least of us...but really what the hell are you trying to say exactly...disagree and you shall be diminished by decree? "I disagree"...well..."you are now the least of us." (with pointed finger outstretched from on high I can only presume) I tell you what maybe you should quote more not less, because your metaphor is certainly not, "it was the best of times it was the worst of times."

The least of us are the ones that benefit from those that give their lives while they whine about everything under the sun. You are prolific whiner

Do you think most of the people that support the war believe as you do? That we are over there for much more than Iraq? That next it will be Iran, Venezuela...whatever? Do you think GWB would have gotten near as much support if he had levelled with the public from the start and told them his real agenda?

It is no longer possible to level with the American people or any people really. We are no longer a serious population with the resolve to accomplish hard tasks without a pretext for doing so. Not that our current situation is different for many other times in history when the leaders used a pretext for action. Many times those actions where terrible slaughters like WWII etc. This situation is different. This is self defense.

I don't expect you to see this for yourself. You are too biased to see the big picture.

It is no longer possible to level with the American people or any people really. We are no longer a serious population with the resolve to accomplish hard tasks without a pretext for doing so. Not that our current situation is different for many other times in history when the leaders used a pretext for action. Many times those actions where terrible slaughters like WWII etc. This situation is different. This is self defense.

I don't expect you to see this for yourself. You are too biased to see the big picture.



Why do you hate Americans so?

"Not that our current situation is different for many other times in history..."
followed by "This situation is different."...

Okay. Nice doublespeak...time to drink our Victory Gin.

. You are prolific whiner


Can I still be angry? Just wondering, in case I have to change my avatar tagline...again.

/thanks for the insult...by the way.

It is no longer possible to level with the American people or any people really. We are no longer a serious population with the resolve to accomplish hard tasks without a pretext for doing so. Not that our current situation is different for many other times in history when the leaders used a pretext for action. Many times those actions where terrible slaughters like WWII etc. This situation is different. This is self defense.

I don't expect you to see this for yourself. You are too biased to see the big picture.
And you really think the GWB administration sees the big picture? George W doesn't even read anything except maybe the Bible and the rest of his advisors I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them. If you're asking me to just trust the government is doing the right thing while ignoring the reality of what is actually happening then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No way that is happening. Maybe war in the mideast was an eventuality, but the Iraq war was optional.

and counting.

how's this?

WHY DON"T WE GIT THE F OFF THE T!T! LOOK WE"RE GROWNUPS, WE SHOULDN"T NEED YEARS TO WEEN OURSELVES FREE. We could reduce their GDP's to about zero and once they have no $ they ahve no $ for funding terrorism.
send them back 300 frickin years and have internal chaos of mass unemployment and then they'd have to quell the unrest of their own hungry masses.

oh but that would take national backbone and every citizen to pull their weight.

Another question is how many more human lives, American and others, are at risk 5 to 10 years down the road if the Middle East doesn't change? How many lives have been lost to mad men with political designs fed by religious fervor already. We lost over 3000 in one day to these people you feel should be left to their own designs. Because you underestimate the threat and danger doesn't make it any less.

How is the middle east going to change when we only pay lip service to freedom but in reality support the status quo ie all the other despots who aren't really 'despots' because they are our friends (currently). Remember when Rumsfield met with Saddam and we were selling him arms?

Iraq has become a terrorist graduate school thanks to the folly of the neo-con greed and blood lust. If King George had listened and sent 300,000+ troops in to secure the munition depots and the borders I can tell you this mess would not be nearly so bad. Arrogance and hubris are what lead to fall of the mighty, it is sad that so many of our own are paying the ultimate price for this administrations incompetence.

Can I still be angry? Just wondering, in case I have to change my avatar tagline...again.

/thanks for the insult...by the way.

...by all means be angery. This is not an easy time. Especially for people that take care to inform themselves of the world around them. We all want answers, we want to know the meaning of it all, and when we are unable to reconcile all the bs that is out there we get frustrated and angry. Anger is simply the reaction to not getting your way.

The current global conflict in our lives is more subtle than we are historically used to. Therefore it becomes harder and harder to read, so there is more indecision, more viable perspectives. Or at least it seems that way.

My point is there is only one real way to end this conflict. We, meaning the West, can change, or the Middle East can change. As we have more power, we will attempt to change the ME. The attempt at change will work or it won't, but there is no choice in the matter. It is not a pleasure for me to write that. I have children, a wife, and other family that I want to live in peace. I don't want war, but this mess must be fixed now before we blow up the entire planet by waiting too long. Perhaps that's what we will do anyway.

In the end, the Earth will keep spinning and evolution will conitnue to move forward as it has since the big bang. Everybody and everything dies to make way for what comes next. Perhaps you can take solace knowing that is true. It works for me.

Concerning your appreciation for the insult. you're welcome. :)

Remember when Rumsfield met with Saddam and we were selling him arms?

You might want to do a little more research into this one. Militaries the world over require huge amounts of logistical equipment (cables, chains, tires, pots, pans, boots, fabrics, solvents) defensive systems (radars, razor wire), and a bajillion other mundane items like fuel tanks and camp stoves.

Looking at the Iraqi arsenal, it's safe to say the "we armed him" chant is pure bunk. (Much like the "CIA trained Bin Laden" chant.) US armories have NEVER produced Scuds, Kalashnikovs, T-62s, Exocets, Migs, etc., etc., etc.

And you really think the GWB administration sees the big picture? George W doesn't even read anything except maybe the Bible and the rest of his advisors I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them. If you're asking me to just trust the government is doing the right thing while ignoring the reality of what is actually happening then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No way that is happening. Maybe war in the mideast was an eventuality, but the Iraq war was optional.

You asked about the administration leveling with the people, and I merely replied that leveling with the people is no longer possible. You might be prepared for such honesty but the population in general is not.

Used car salesmen lie. Statesmen create a pretext.

I'm not saying I think this is a good thing. I'm not making any judgements on it at all. I am simply stating the facts. Who wouldn't want to live in a world where we're all honest with each other and we all got along? Do you think that is our world? Do you think there is a politician alive that can get everybody on the same page in order to do change the world?

Think whatever you like. Do whatever you like. It does not matter to me.

Snake, as I've said B4 (w/no intent to mock those who died), more people die on a daily basis from both car accidents, or food poisoning, or lung cancer-than died in 911. All of these are a h^ll of alot easier to prevent than any terrorist attack

There are many things this admin has demonstrated it cares alot more about than your personal safety.

The deaths you are describing are life. The deaths on 9/11 were an attack on our country, it's citizens and our way of life. It was not the end, only the beginning. What does it take to wake you up, a mushroom cloud? Do you really think these people have some noble objective in mind? What they want is power and control and they wish to exert that control over our lives. I would as soon not.

who yesterday was saying "How dare you" to me for saying what the American people want?
Pot Meet Kettle I guess.

is this like "You can't handle the truth" and that makes the lies okay?

see like I've always said "elitism on both sides" one just seems to do a better job at helping folks out.

You might want to do a little more research into this one. Militaries the world over require huge amounts of logistical equipment (cables, chains, tires, pots, pans, boots, fabrics, solvents) defensive systems (radars, razor wire), and a bajillion other mundane items like fuel tanks and camp stoves.

Looking at the Iraqi arsenal, it's safe to say the "we armed him" chant is pure bunk. (Much like the "CIA trained Bin Laden" chant.) US armories have NEVER produced Scuds, Kalashnikovs, T-62s, Exocets, Migs, etc., etc., etc.


OK. fair enough, I stand corrected. He was mostly " armed " by the Eastern Bloc. However, we sure were cozy with him during the 80's and as you said a military requires much more than just munitions to function so your little semantical rant hold little water. Hypocrisy is the neo-con modus operandi.

who yesterday was saying "How dare you" to me for saying what the American people want?
Pot Meet Kettle I guess.

is this like "You can't handle the truth" and that makes the lies okay?

see like I've always said "elitism on both sides" one just seems to do a better job at helping folks out.

No. I was the guy that demonstrated that the liberals are not acting in my self interests.

Yes. It is exactly like "you can't handle the truth." We are a shining example of that. Like I wrote in a previous post. Used car salesmen lie, Statesmen create pretexts.

Is it a lie when a mother tells her child that the stork brings the babies from the clouds? Of course not, it is simply the explanation that the child is prepared to accept at the time.

And before you waste your valuable time posting the question let me answer you now. Yes, I am saying that the American people are childlike in this matter. If you disagree with that all you have to do is turn on the TV and witness the level of discourse for yourself.

I didn't make this world. This world is not the ideal any of us would have hoped for. This world is the result of 10,000 years of human selfishness. Democrats or Republicans or anyone else for that matter has the power to stop the inertia of the last 10,000 years.

Nobody is interested in hearing about it anyway. Too busy watching tv, getting drunk, going to the mall, or posting to message boards.

Only the individual who can see things for what they are has any hope of seperating from the mind numbingness of it all. At that point one realizes the only thing to do is enjoy the time you have left before you die. Please enjoy responsibly.

OK. fair enough, I stand corrected. He was mostly " armed " by the Eastern Bloc. However, we sure were cozy with him during the 80's and as you said a military requires much more than just munitions to function so your little semantical rant hold little water. Hypocrisy is the neo-con modus operandi.

Dude, what's with the ad hominem attack? I'm a fact checker, not a political hack. Chill the F out, will ya?

The deaths you are describing are life. The deaths on 9/11 were an attack on our country, it's citizens and our way of life. It was not the end, only the beginning. What does it take to wake you up, a mushroom cloud? Do you really think these people have some noble objective in mind? What they want is power and control and they wish to exert that control over our lives. I would as soon not.
The 'deaths that are life'-are easily preventable, thx to tech we had 30 years ago-the only reason they still happen is because chikensh*t politicians who are controlled by corporate interests are elected thanks to they're ability to make you feel fear for the terrorists living under you pillow.

Do they have an objective? well? Do you think our fear-full leaders have an answer to that one-one that is actually believable?
-what I do know is that these people want to kill someone, because they feel wronged, @some level.....

And going in shooting our bazzooo off in the M.E. is a surefire way doing all of their recruitment for them. We're creating more enemies every day-and it's only going to get worse.

Your odds of dying in a car accident/bike accident are far greater than getting caught in a turrist attack.

No. I was the guy that demonstrated that the liberals are not acting in my self interests.

Yes. It is exactly like "you can't handle the truth." We are a shining example of that. Like I wrote in a previous post. Used car salesmen lie, Statesmen create pretexts.

Is it a lie when a mother tells her child that the stork brings the babies from the clouds? Of course not, it is simply the explanation that the child is prepared to accept at the time.

And before you waste your valuable time posting the question let me answer you now. Yes, I am saying that the American people are childlike in this matter. If you disagree with that all you have to do is turn on the TV and witness the level of discourse for yourself.

I didn't make this world. This world is not the ideal any of us would have hoped for. This world is the result of 10,000 years of human selfishness. Democrats or Republicans or anyone else for that matter has the power to stop the inertia of the last 10,000 years.

Nobody is interested in hearing about it anyway. Too busy watching tv, getting drunk, going to the mall, or posting to message boards.

Only the individual who can see things for what they are has any hope of seperating from the mind numbingness of it all. At that point one realizes the only thing to do is enjoy the time you have left before you die. Please enjoy responsibly.
standard Ken 'New Rules forthe 21 cent' topic change: Ergo Game, set, match.

thank you for playing.

Dude, what's with the ad hominem attack? I'm a fact checker, not a political hack. Chill the F out, will ya?


No attack. See the big picture, if you're going to call bunk on a detail make sure the substance of the point is invalid as well. Hence the rank odor of hypocrisy.

The deaths you are describing are life. The deaths on 9/11 were an attack on our country, it's citizens and our way of life. It was not the end, only the beginning. What does it take to wake you up, a mushroom cloud? Do you really think these people have some noble objective in mind? What they want is power and control and they wish to exert that control over our lives. I would as soon not.

A mushroom cloud? OMG don't scare me like that! I'd go running to the nearest church to pray except my President wants me to gather up my courage and go shopping. Ah, Snakey if only the Bush administration would take the war on terror as seriously as we do, maybe they would realize 130,000 of our troops are in the wrong country.

I have to disagree with you on the control issue. Yes, I agree the people of the Middle East want power and control but I believe the people of the Middle East don't give a rat's pattootie about controlling us. I think they want us to get the hell out of their land so they can have control over their own lives. They want to be able to live in peace in their own countries without American big business interests propping up their “democratically elected” dictators (Mubarek) or their irrelevant royal families. I think they feel culturally threatened by our presence their and are sick and tired of seeing MacDonald’s and Kenny Rogers’ Roasters across the street from their temples.

If we were off of the oil t!t like Junkie just posted maybe everyone - them, us, ... maybe even pouty ole jbrumm would be happy.

No attack. See the big picture, if you're going to call bunk on a detail make sure the substance of the point is invalid as well. Hence the rank odor of hypocrisy.

Wait, I merely pointed out that Rumsfeld did not sell Iraq weapons. I tried my best to arm you with facts -- to help your argument. Here's a link to some very interesting and factual details on Rumsfeld's meetings with Saddam: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

So, how exactly do I reek of hypocrisy? Cite specific examples.

Using misinformation and blatant falsehoods to paint your "big picture" is doubly hypocritical. I don't like being misinformed by anyone, regardless of their politics.

Seriously, dude. Why are you trying to make me your enemy?

have you noticed in our lifetimes the conservatives have always had a war with someone?
Communism 50's McCarthy to the Fall
Drugs Fall to the 90's
Islam 90's to now

all with a tad of crossover , Venezuela being the new one.

do ya remeber what W told Americans to do?

shop

do you think it's unrelated?

liminal existence produces consumerism

consumerism produces spiritual vacuums

so they up sales and the vacuum is filled by their #1 support mechanism the religious right

quite a clever little system

Communism 50's McCarthy to the Fall
Drugs Fall to the 90's
Islam 90's to now

For a second I thought your were talking about drugs and the band called The Fall. I had a bit of a flashback there. :)

And you really think the GWB administration sees the big picture? George W doesn't even read anything except maybe the Bible and the rest of his advisors I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them. If you're asking me to just trust the government is doing the right thing while ignoring the reality of what is actually happening then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No way that is happening. Maybe war in the mideast was an eventuality, but the Iraq war was optional.

and if a war in the middle east was truly inevitable, would it be too much to ask that those in charge of it have a plan, and are competent enough to execute that plan effectively? so that the outcome achieves the desired result of a peaceful, democratic, stable, middle east, instead of a middle east becoming even more of a terrorist breeding ground, and an iraq on the verge of civil war?

It is no longer possible to level with the American people or any people really. We are no longer a serious population with the resolve to accomplish hard tasks without a pretext for doing so. Not that our current situation is different for many other times in history when the leaders used a pretext for action. Many times those actions where terrible slaughters like WWII etc. This situation is different. This is self defense.

I don't expect you to see this for yourself. You are too biased to see the big picture.

we can resolve hard tasks just fine. the question is, and both you and boy george continue to fail to answer, is whether this particular course of action will result in the solution desired, or whether it is failing due to the incompetence and mismanagement of its architects.

and if it is failing, as so readily appears to be(our troops can't provide the iraqi people security or safety, we are not establishing a democracy, but an islamic theocracy instead, the numbers of terrorist attacks around the world is increasing, not decreasing, etc), should we instead look at other options and other courses of action that could be more effective at achieving the desired goals? or do we stupidly and blindly continue doing what we've been doing?

as boy george says, "we need to continue fighting so that those who have died will not have died in vain". just great. more people have to die because other people already have. it's a perpetuating cycle, with no end or goal in sight. just unending war and death.

one of the great secret jewels of the era. and good lefties.

The 'deaths that are life'-are easily preventable, thx to tech we had 30 years ago-the only reason they still happen is because chikensh*t politicians who are controlled by corporate interests are elected thanks to they're ability to make you feel fear for the terrorists living under you pillow.

Do they have an objective? well? Do you think our fear-full leaders have an answer to that one-one that is actually believable?
-what I do know is that these people want to kill someone, because they feel wronged, @some level.....

And going in shooting our bazzooo off in the M.E. is a surefire way doing all of their recruitment for them. We're creating more enemies every day-and it's only going to get worse.

Your odds of dying in a car accident/bike accident are far greater than getting caught in a turrist attack.

You're talking like a madman. 9/11 was an act of war and war is what resulted. Your constant complaints of being lied to, which is untrue in itself, and your claims that we can spare a few buildings and people if it means not antagonizing anyone seems completely irrational. Do you call the police when your house is burglarized or just say "Oh well'

There is an objective, it is that terrorism should no longer be used as a political weapon by governments who then try to deny responsibility. That is what is happening now, responsibility and accountability.

A mushroom cloud? OMG don't scare me like that! I'd go running to the nearest church to pray except my President wants me to gather up my courage and go shopping. Ah, Snakey if only the Bush administration would take the war on terror as seriously as we do, maybe they would realize 130,000 of our troops are in the wrong country.

I have to disagree with you on the control issue. Yes, I agree the people of the Middle East want power and control but I believe the people of the Middle East don't give a rat's pattootie about controlling us. I think they want us to get the hell out of their land so they can have control over their own lives. They want to be able to live in peace in their own countries without American big business interests propping up their ?democratically elected? dictators (Mubarek) or their irrelevant royal families. I think they feel culturally threatened by our presence their and are sick and tired of seeing MacDonald?s and Kenny Rogers? Roasters across the street from their temples.

If we were off of the oil t!t like Junkie just posted maybe everyone - them, us, ... maybe even pouty ole jbrumm would be happy.

Which country in the ME do they live in peace in. I can't think of onne that isn't shaken on a regular basis by feuds and political murder. The only semblance of the peace you mention would be Iran and they live under an oppressive government. It would not be difficult to find those who would prefer change and more freedom but it may be hharder to get them to say so.

McDonalds and Kenny Rogers are not part of the American government, they can be banned by those governments where the people find them to be abhorant. What you are describing is people choosing to eat there and the only threat they pose is to the theocratic control of those people. their very existance and success points to the truth of the idea that people want less control in their lives and more freedom to choose and the oppressive nature of those governments.

The mushroom cloud allusion was not to promote fear, it was a question. What level of destruction and invasion does it take to anger you? If billions of dollars in damage and thousands of innocent lives aren't worthy of national anger and retribution, what does lit take in your world?

There is an objective, it is that terrorism should no longer be used as a political weapon by governments who then try to deny responsibility. That is what is happening now, responsibility and accountability.


and what does this have to do with the war in iraq?

The white meat came out very juicy. Who wants more stuffing?

Wait, I merely pointed out that Rumsfeld did not sell Iraq weapons. I tried my best to arm you with facts -- to help your argument. Here's a link to some very interesting and factual details on Rumsfeld's meetings with Saddam: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

So, how exactly do I reek of hypocrisy? Cite specific examples.

Using misinformation and blatant falsehoods to paint your "big picture" is doubly hypocritical. I don't like being misinformed by anyone, regardless of their politics.

Seriously, dude. Why are you trying to make me your enemy?

Fair enough. My tolerance is at all time lows so I retract my sarcasm. I wasn't using blatant falsehoods to paint my big picture, but was trying to make the point that the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. Fact: We once supported Saddam.
Fact: We once supported what are now the Taliban

A huge failure of US foreign policy is that myopic world view that gets us into these quagmires.

your position.

I'll file you under "Paternalistic elitist totalitarian"

I'm glad we have such 'smart folks' making such sound decisions for we huddled masses.

sorry pal, America can handle the truth far better than you realize (though I agree loads are numb and uninterested, but I think it's part of the plan"

sorry to say will be hard enjoying time when I watch the fall of the empire and all it stood for.

lack of intelligent political discourse and paternalistic plutocrats is the sign on the wall,
"Hardhats Only"

You're talking like a madman. 9/11 was an act of war and war is what resulted. Your constant complaints of being lied to, which is untrue in itself, and your claims that we can spare a few buildings and people if it means not antagonizing anyone seems completely irrational. Do you call the police when your house is burglarized or just say "Oh well'

There is an objective, it is that terrorism should no longer be used as a political weapon by governments who then try to deny responsibility. That is what is happening now, responsibility and accountability.
All right Snake-a metaphorical situation

Someone in your county has gone and egged your house.

-in response do you go out and smash everyone's windows who *might* have had something to do with it in retaliation?-guess what-whoever was pissed enough to do it in the 1st place will only be more p&ssed with you afterwards.

got it? Over-simplification? maybe-but aren't the ethics similar?


*all these poli-tickians are out to do is get elected-they do so by making you afraid of your own shadow, and by making the other guy look incapable of defending your country (of which they only care for the showmanship-not the actual defense thereof).

All right Snake-a metaphorical situation

Someone in your county has gone and egged your house.

-in response do you go out and smash everyone's windows who *might* have had something to do with it in retaliation?-guess what-whoever was pissed enough to do it in the 1st place will only be more p&ssed with you afterwards.

got it? Over-simplification? maybe-but aren't the ethics similar?


*all these poli-tickians are out to do is get elected-they do so by making you afraid of your own shadow, and by making the other guy look incapable of defending your country (of which they only care for the showmanship-not the actual defense thereof).

Son, they didn't egg oru house. They crashed three aircraft full of people into three buildings that were also full of people. Yes, lets break out their windows.

Son, they didn't egg our house. They crashed three aircraft full of people into three buildings that were also full of people. Yes, lets break out their windows. what he wrote

what he meant
"they are all a bunch of dirt worshippin, towel heads and the only good one is a dead one"

whose they? last I checked there wasn't an Iraqi involved in 9-11. You keep that myth alive Snake. W thanx ya for it.

Son, they didn't egg oru house. They crashed three aircraft full of people into three buildings that were also full of people. Yes, lets break out their windows.
Thanks Snake-

Ergo-you're just as loony as the turrists you are so fond of going on about

-not that there's anything wrong with that.

with many compliments,

~1201

Son, they didn't egg oru house. They crashed three aircraft full of people into three buildings that were also full of people. Yes, lets break out their windows.

who is this "they" of which you speak? certainly not iraqis, and certainly not saddam hussein.

if on Christmas Day you were debating with a 4 year old about who ate the cookies you could never win as they 'believe' Santa exists therefore "Santa ate them". as long as the myth still holds, so does their arguement

when the foundation of ones arguement is based on lies, mistruths, myths, etc... it kinda kills any forward progress.
That's silly...everyone knows Santa was in bed badly hungover and Hannukah Harry actually ate those cookies while delivering presents for him.

if on Christmas Day you were debating with a 4 year old about who ate the cookies you could never win as they 'believe' Santa exists therefore "Santa ate them". as long as the myth still holds, so does their arguement

when the foundation of ones arguement is based on lies, mistruths, myths, etc... it kinda kills any forward progress.

if on Christmas Day you were debating with a 4 year old about who ate the cookies you could never win as they 'believe' Santa exists therefore "Santa ate them". as long as the myth still holds, so does their arguement

when the foundation of ones arguement is based on lies, mistruths, myths, etc... it kinda kills any forward progress.

what are you implying here....that Santa does NOT exist.....get real, he lives near the North Pole.

see it must be easy from that side.

who is this "they" of which you speak? certainly not iraqis, and certainly not saddam hussein.

Why, "THEY" must have been santas little elves, you know, the ones who egged our house and killed 3000 innocent people. Put some cookies out and stick your head....er...under the covers and "They" will go away and leave you alone to live happily ever after. Don't piss them off, whatever you do, 3000 is a small price to pay for a month or two of peace.

hoiw is killing 100,000 Iraqi's who had nothing to do with 9-11 going to stop something like it happening again?
clearly it stopped them from attacking our allies in England.

What was FDR thinking? He should have attacked Australia, they are close to Japan right?

You're hard headed, ain'tcha ;)

hoiw is killing 100,000 Iraqi's who had nothing to do with 9-11 going to stop something like it happening again?
clearly it stopped them from attacking our allies in England.

What was FDR thinking? He should have attacked Australia, they are close to Japan right?

ignorant and in denial

we're still waiting on the "How was Saddamist Iraq a threat" considering our own intelligence proved he wasn't.

personally in retrospect I'd rather have him there keeping lid on the fanatics.

Which country in the ME do they live in peace in. I can't think of onne that isn't shaken on a regular basis by feuds and political murder. The only semblance of the peace you mention would be Iran and they live under an oppressive government. It would not be difficult to find those who would prefer change and more freedom but it may be hharder to get them to say so.

McDonalds and Kenny Rogers are not part of the American government, they can be banned by those governments where the people find them to be abhorant. What you are describing is people choosing to eat there and the only threat they pose is to the theocratic control of those people. their very existance and success points to the truth of the idea that people want less control in their lives and more freedom to choose and the oppressive nature of those governments.

The mushroom cloud allusion was not to promote fear, it was a question. What level of destruction and invasion does it take to anger you? If billions of dollars in damage and thousands of innocent lives aren't worthy of national anger and retribution, what does lit take in your world?

Yes Snakey, Iran. They elect their own political leaders without interference from us. Oppressive? Some might think we live under an oppressive regime here in the US. I guess no matter which way you look at it, things are always more oppressive on the other side of the pond.

Can you name the only city in the Middle East where 10,000 citizens gathered in the town square for a candlelight vigil to honor the the victims on the evening of September 11, 2001? Tel Aviv? No. Cairo? Nope. Riyadh? C'mon you got to be kidding me. Tehran??? Yesss.

Ever since we got the heck outta there they have developed a certain - shall we say affection for us. Wouldn't it be nice if Egypt and Saudi Arabia could be as U.S. meddle free as Iran is? Maybe then their citizens won't want to crash airplanes into our buildings.

Level of destruction...make me angry? Don't get me started. For brevity's sake I'll just say 100,000 Iraqi lives and the lives of a couple of thousand American soldiers are doing the job fine for now.

Oh, and the mushroon cloud allusion? Sorry if I misunderstood you. I still wake up with the midnight sweats over Condi Rice's "smoking gun, mushroom cloud, blah blah blah" statement.

Why, "THEY" must have been santas little elves, you know, the ones who egged our house and killed 3000 innocent people. Put some cookies out and stick your head....er...under the covers and "They" will go away and leave you alone to live happily ever after. Don't piss them off, whatever you do, 3000 is a small price to pay for a month or two of peace.

answer the friggin' question, or STFU. who is this "they" who crashed three airplanes into three buildings? was it saddam and his band of iraqi terrorists? andif it wasn't, then why did we start a war with them?

answer the friggin' question, or STFU. who is this "they" who crashed three airplanes into three buildings? was it saddam and his band of iraqi terrorists? andif it wasn't, then why did we start a war with them?

It was Islamic terrorists from the middle east. They were from the Al Qeada group and there were ties to Saddam even though you deny it. There is no evidence to link him to that attack but there is evidence that he was supportive of terrorists and terrorism. STFU? Lets try to stay civil or you can GFYS.

ignorant and in denial

we're still waiting on the "How was Saddamist Iraq a threat" considering our own intelligence proved he wasn't.

personally in retrospect I'd rather have him there keeping lid on the fanatics.

yeah, torturing and killing islamic terrorists. you know, the kind of things we do now.

It was Islamic terrorists from the middle east. They were from the Al Qeada group and there were ties to Saddam even though you deny it. There is no evidence to link him to that attack but there is evidence that he was supportive of terrorists and terrorism. STFU? Lets try to stay civil or you can GFYS.

Uh, Snakey, ever hear of the 9/11 Commission? Well they filed a report a little while ago. Quite a bit of fanfare when it came out and - are you sititng down? They concluded that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Sorry to break the news to you like this.

-sogno

Uh, Snakey, ever hear of the 9/11 Commission? Well they filed a report a little while ago. Quite a bit of fanfare when it came out and - are you sititng down? They concluded that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Sorry to break the news to you like this.

-sogno
I see nuthink...nuthiink! Must be tough for Snake to wear those blinders all the time.

It was Islamic terrorists from the middle east. They were from the Al Qeada group and there were ties to Saddam even though you deny it. There is no evidence to link him to that attack but there is evidence that he was supportive of terrorists and terrorism. STFU? Lets try to stay civil or you can GFYS.

The house of Saud supports the schools that spawn the terrorists, why didn't we take them out. If all that was needed for a reason was support why are they still in power. Oh, maybe because Bush is in their back pocket. Answer that one satisfactorily and I'll STFU and maybe GFMS while I'm at it. This administration seems rather selective in who it deems a supporter of terrorism, facts be damned.

What's a lost cause?

What's a lost cause?

King George and his myopic band of jesters

"BUT THERE WERE PRESENTS UNDER THE TREE! THIS PROVES SANTA EXISTS"

don't let the facts get in your way. I mean it's 2000 and friggin 5 and a half plus.

hasn't read the 9-11 commision, hasn't read Downingstreet, doesn't see the connections between these and the outing of Plame. Must be hard living in the dark. maybe the snakebite blinded him.

says it's true doesn't make it so

The house of Saud supports the schools that spawn the terrorists, why didn't we take them out. If all that was needed for a reason was support why are they still in power. Oh, maybe because Bush is in their back pocket. Answer that one satisfactorily and I'll STFU and maybe GFMS while I'm at it. This administration seems rather selective in who it deems a supporter of terrorism, facts be damned.

Like you, I believe the House of Saud has a lot to answer for. Unlike you, I believe the reasons have to do with politics of the oil supply this country depends on, not the personal enrichment of the Bush family or Halliburton. By bringing down Saddam, we establish a foothold and a base of operations in the region if the politics don't work out. None of the other powers in the region need to fall, what they need is change. Destroying the regiem in Iraq removed a tyrant who had twice destabalized the entire region, no loss to anyone. it proves that there are consequences. Now we work for political change and that process is just beginning. that is what is at stake here with the Iraqi Constitution and elections. Failing that, well, we have a launching point that is central to the region to project force should it be necessary. That's basically what I believe. Nobody is getting a pass over there. We just put a big Question mark right in the middle of the region and started demanding answers. It remains to be seen just what answers we will get. I lean toward optimism, cautious optimism.

Hey guys,

It's Thanks Giving... Don't spoil it. The Christmas stuff starts tomorrow.

Have some more stuffing.

Like you, I believe the House of Saud has a lot to answer for. Unlike you, I believe the reasons have to do with politics of the oil supply this country depends on, not the personal enrichment of the Bush family or Halliburton. By bringing down Saddam, we establish a foothold and a base of operations in the region if the politics don't work out. None of the other powers in the region need to fall, what they need is change. Destroying the regiem in Iraq removed a tyrant who had twice destabalized the entire region, no loss to anyone. it proves that there are consequences. Now we work for political change and that process is just beginning. that is what is at stake here with the Iraqi Constitution and elections. Failing that, well, we have a launching point that is central to the region to project force should it be necessary. That's basically what I believe. Nobody is getting a pass over there. We just put a big Question mark right in the middle of the region and started demanding answers. It remains to be seen just what answers we will get. I lean toward optimism, cautious optimism.

I also believe in accountability and leadership. Two things this admin has failed miserably in.

Accountability: No heads have rolled from a gross underestimation of the problems we would face on the ground. None, in fact, tho I seem to be getting those wrong today, didn't some of those responsible get promoted? We totally F'ed up the occupation. Not enough troops to secure munition depots which are now being used against us and no real attempt made to seal the borders which allowed how many to escape into Syria. I could go on and on but my point has been made..

Leadership: Platitudes about freedom and 9/11 ring more and more hollow as king georges approval ratings sink. Why are we subjected to this? A true leader could have initiated a manhattan project to get the US economy off its dependence of oil. A 15 year phase out would not be unreasonable if the powers that be made it so, but instead they continue to do the bidding of big oil. Why is that? Quid pro quo is why.

I see nuthink...nuthiink! Must be tough for Snake to wear those blinders all the time.

snake don't care what any 9/11 commission, or Iraqi weapons group reports have to say. he knows for a fact that saddam had WMD's and was behind 9/11. he just knows it. anyone who doesn't is either blind or a moron.

i think snake is really laurie mhylroie

so, not iraqis? not saddam hussein? then why did we start a war with iraq? why didn't we start a war with saudi arabia, who provided 15 of the men who attacked us, and who fund the schools that create islamic terrorists? why didn't we start a war with pakistan, who supported and trained al qaeda, as well as operated the largest nuclear weapons technology smuggling operation to terrorists and rogue states the world has ever seen. why iraq?

How do you run a hundred yards?

It was Islamic terrorists from the middle east. They were from the Al Qeada group and there were ties to Saddam even though you deny it. There is no evidence to link him to that attack but there is evidence that he was supportive of terrorists and terrorism. STFU? Lets try to stay civil or you can GFYS.

so, not iraqis? not saddam hussein? then why did we start a war with iraq? why didn't we start a war with saudi arabia, who provided 15 of the men who attacked us, and who fund the schools that create islamic terrorists? why didn't we start a war with pakistan, who supported and trained al qaeda, as well as operated the largest nuclear weapons technology smuggling operation to terrorists and rogue states the world has ever seen. why iraq?

It is no longer possible to level with the American people or any people really. We are no longer a serious population with the resolve to accomplish hard tasks without a pretext for doing so. Not that our current situation is different for many other times in history when the leaders used a pretext for action. Many times those actions where terrible slaughters like WWII etc. This situation is different. This is self defense.

I don't expect you to see this for yourself. You are too biased to see the big picture.

Self defense? When did they attack us or threaten to attack us? Why didn't we attack North Korea in self defense? They seemed like a much bigger threat than Iraq.