since the right has such a great time blaming Clinton I'm gonna try ot out

a) deny Army Corp of Engineers 72 million for Levee repairs, so the failures of said levees and damage and chaos that ensued - W's Fault

b) looting, stop that! send in the Louisiana National Guard,...what they are in Iraq? W's Fault


c) since the hardest areas hit were New Orleans, Biloxi and such that even though these are in Red States when is Pat Robertson gonna say this is God's retribution for all the vice, gambling, drinking, sex and homosexuality?


d) on a more serious note the 72 million denied was on suggestion that 'more research' is needed. Is this a metaphor or hint of the future? are we going to have a global climate catastrophe before folks on the right realize 'more research' isn't needed?

discuss

c) since the hardest areas hit were New Orleans, Biloxi and such that even though these are in Red States when is Pat Robertson gonna say this is God's retribution for all the vice, gambling, drinking, sex and homosexuality?
They say that if they pray together they can change the weather.

I'm saying Pat's or someone is gonna say it within 2 weeks

c) since the hardest areas hit were New Orleans, Biloxi and such that even though these are in Red States when is Pat Robertson gonna say this is God's retribution for all the vice, gambling, drinking, sex and homosexuality?

discuss


It is obvious now that God is punishing the red states for their following of the false prophet. But since those on the right continue to deny science, we will get to witnees the power of prayer to overt natural disasters.....I think we are going to wait awhile before someone from the 700 club bashes their own.....bible belt indeed

since the right has such a great time blaming Clinton I'm gonna try ot out

a) deny Army Corp of Engineers 72 million for Levee repairs, so the failures of said levees and damage and chaos that ensued - W's Fault

b) looting, stop that! send in the Louisiana National Guard,...what they are in Iraq? W's Fault


c) since the hardest areas hit were New Orleans, Biloxi and such that even though these are in Red States when is Pat Robertson gonna say this is God's retribution for all the vice, gambling, drinking, sex and homosexuality?


d) on a more serious note the 72 million denied was on suggestion that 'more research' is needed. Is this a metaphor or hint of the future? are we going to have a global climate catastrophe before folks on the right realize 'more research' isn't needed?

discuss


It's a real shame. In 2001 a final $250,000,000 was needed to complete work started during the Clinton Admin. to shore up the levee. Over the next couple of years Louisiana was denied the bucks because of Homeland Security, the Bush tax cuts, and in later years the war in Iraq. As recently as last September the Bush Admin. denied full funding for the Lake Pontchartrain levee reinforcement, offering only 20% of what the Army Corps of Engineers requested.

Another interesting note - in 1995 FEMA announced that in their estimation the three most devastating disasters that could impact the United States were:

1) A terrorist attack on New York City.
2) A catastrophic earthquake in San Francisco.

and... you guessed it,
3) A major hurricane causing a break in the Lake Pontchartrain levee in New Orleans.

Why doesn't Pat Robertson go to New Orleans and part the waters with his hands?

now what's scary is Katrina was fgeeding on Gulf waters in the 90's. is this common temp for this time of year?

now what's scary is Katrina was fgeeding on Gulf waters in the 90's. is this common temp for this time of year?

No.

Bush had Halliburton create a giant water heater that raised the temps a whopping five degrees over the last few months.

I think Bush also is responsible for that "Rock Star" debacle. I think he also shot J.R. But maybe "the jews" did that one.

I heard Bill Clinton was in New Orleans, he heard some chick named Katrina was blowing.

d) on a more serious note the 72 million denied was on suggestion that 'more research' is needed. Is this a metaphor or hint of the future? are we going to have a global climate catastrophe before folks on the right realize 'more research' isn't needed?

To: people of Florida, Manhattan, and every low oceanic coastal area in America
Cc: people of every low oceanic coastal area on planet earth

Subject: Your future

Take a very close look at New Orleans and see the future.

It's a real shame. In 2001 a final $250,000,000 was needed to complete work started during the Clinton Admin. to shore up the levee. Over the next couple of years Louisiana was denied the bucks because of Homeland Security, the Bush tax cuts, and in later years the war in Iraq. As recently as last September the Bush Admin. denied full funding for the Lake Pontchartrain levee reinforcement, offering only 20% of what the Army Corps of Engineers requested.

Another interesting note - in 1995 FEMA announced that in their estimation the three most devastating disasters that could impact the United States were:

1) A terrorist attack on New York City.
2) A catastrophic earthquake in San Francisco.

and... you guessed it,
3) A major hurricane causing a break in the Lake Pontchartrain levee in New Orleans.


Whatever the cost would have been to build a levee system on par with what the Dutch have built is a pittance compaired to the cost of this flood.

doesn't it seem like there are more, and more nasty hurricanes in the last decade or so?
hell it ain't even 'season' yet and we're already up to K. and we've already had a few bad ones. how many bad ones last year? temporary trend? or are warmer Atlantic climes to blame. who's the armchair meteorologist?

I heard Bill Clinton was in New Orleans, he heard some chick named Katrina was blowing.

I heard Katrina is mother.

Whatever the cost would have been to build a levee system on par with what the Dutch have built is a pittance compaired to the cost of this flood.

Amen to that.

doesn't it seem like there are more, and more nasty hurricanes in the last decade or so?
hell it ain't even 'season' yet and we're already up to K. and we've already had a few bad ones. how many bad ones last year? temporary trend? or are warmer Atlantic climes to blame. who's the armchair meteorologist?

There's data that clearly indicates a natural cyclical pattern regarding the severity of hurricanes and hurricane seasons. We are obviously entering a severe period but I think it is quite naive to believe that the effects of human activities on the planet's systems have not contributed to the severity of this disaster and the natural cycle.

This is the future. We've made our bed and we have to lay in it. It's ironically interesting that the center of much of America's petrochemical industry has been hobbled by this disaster. Meanwhile the likes of John Thune are attempting to use this diaster as an argument for why drilling for oil in ANWAR and other such areas is sound policy.

doesn't it seem like there are more, and more nasty hurricanes in the last decade or so?
hell it ain't even 'season' yet and we're already up to K. and we've already had a few bad ones. how many bad ones last year? temporary trend? or are warmer Atlantic climes to blame. who's the armchair meteorologist?
I think we have been seeing more.

Open Question (maybe it deserves it's own thread):

Why in the world do people repeatedly build in hurricane prone areas? Not with respect to N.O.-but Florida/Carolinas---a few summers ago didn't they get pounded by 4 of 5 major storms in one season (IIRC)?

I think we have been seeing more.

Open Question (maybe it deserves it's own thread):

Why in the world do people repeatedly build in hurricane prone areas? Not with respect to N.O.-but Florida/Carolinas---a few summers ago didn't they get pounded by 4 of 5 major storms in one season (IIRC)?

maybe cause they're among the areas of the country with the fastest economic growth, and better jobs?

There's data that clearly indicates a natural cyclical pattern regarding the severity of hurricanes and hurricane seasons. We are obviously entering a severe period but I think it is quite naive to believe that the effects of human activities on the planet's systems have not contributed to the severity of this disaster and the natural cycle.
.

I heard something to this effect on the radio today. The '60's and '70's were heavy hurricane periods. The '80's and '90's were relatively light. Climatology models indicate that the next 15 years or so are going to be heavy hurricane years. FL, MS, AL and LA coastal residents need to hang on to their hats.

maybe cause they're among the areas of the country with the fastest economic growth, and better jobs?

I'm sure he's talking about coastal areas in particular. Other than all the reconstruction and repair work from all the hurricane damage does Florida really have a job market that trends strong? In these coastal areas the job market is dominated by the service and hospitality industries. Are these really better jobs?

It is obvious now that God is punishing the red states for their following of the false prophet. But since those on the right continue to deny science, we will get to witnees the power of prayer to overt natural disasters.....I think we are going to wait awhile before someone from the 700 club bashes their own.....bible belt indeed

Columbia Christians for Life...(Fringe group)...the Hurricane looked like a six week old aborted fetus. Clearly this is vengeance wrought by god and against those that have had or performed abortions. (Feel free to Goggle for more information).

I'm sure he's talking about coastal areas in particular. Other than all the reconstruction and repair work from all the hurricane damage does Florida really have a job market that trends strong? In these coastal areas the job market is dominated by the service and hospitality industries. Are these really better jobs?

This brings up the hard question. Should they really rebuilt New Orleans? Should be really be so determined to rebuilt just for the sake of rebuilding, just to take on the challenge? Sure there's a lot of history and memories, but wasn't history and those memories built on impractical ground.

The Govt. moved entire towns in the midwest during the floods of 93. "your town is built on a flood plain, that's not smart, so we are going to not let you live there..." I fail to see the difference about NO. Sure, there are more people, but same concept.

But then I fail to see why people live in Califonia....besides the shortage of water, earthquakes, mudslides and wildfires. What about a govt "we'll bail you out once, after that you are on your own..."

(I know too simplistic, but I can hope for rational thought, right?)

mm
(hey, what am I doing in PO? I must be really bored...)

Several reasons:

1. The "hurricane prone areas" include most of the entire east coast, most of the west coast, and all of the south coast. Plus the inland areas. So, roughly 50% of the usable land in the nation.

2. Hurricanes striking land and causing major damage are rare.

3. There is no reason why we can't build buildings and entire cities that can survive a cat 5 hurricane with minimal damage and loss of life.

3. There is no reason why we can't build buildings and entire cities that can survive a cat 5 hurricane with minimal damage and loss of life.
Actually I was intendeing to mean areas that say...got run over by 4 hurricanes in one season...but oh well-

In terms of technology, no....but considering most of the houses that usually get washed/blown away are made as cheaply as possible(the lot already costing a fortune), it ain't gonna happen (soon, at least without a kick in the pants) methinks

Several reasons:

1. The "hurricane prone areas" include most of the entire east coast, most of the west coast, and all of the south coast. Plus the inland areas. So, roughly 50% of the usable land in the nation.

2. Hurricanes striking land and causing major damage are rare.

3. There is no reason why we can't build buildings and entire cities that can survive a cat 5 hurricane with minimal damage and loss of life.

and if our wonderful government had allocated the resources needed for new orleans to complete their hurricane/flood protections, instead of using the money for the iraq conflict, the damage and loss of life would presumably have been much less.

maybe cause they're among the areas of the country with the fastest economic growth, and better jobs?

From what? Casinos and tourism?

Real wealth is created where it gets cold.

a) deny Army Corp of Engineers 72 million for Levee repairs, so the failures of said levees and damage and chaos that ensued - W's Fault
That's almost exactly half the daily cost of the war in Iraq, which is costing taxpayers one billion dollars a week!

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/07/15/gao_investigator_rips_pentagon_on_iraq_war_finance s/

and if our wonderful government had allocated the resources needed for new orleans to complete their hurricane/flood protections, instead of using the money for the iraq conflict, the damage and loss of life would presumably have been much less.

Ah, but you forget about all the American lives the war in Iraq has saved. You fail to see the big picture. Had we not gone to war with Iraq, there would have been countless catastrophic terrorist attacks on the US that make Katrina's damage pale in comparison. We have thwarted countless attacks... I can't even begin to calculate the benefits of the war.

From what? Casinos and tourism?

Real wealth is created where it gets cold.

i was thinking mostly the carolinas and that region. maybe the fastest growing economic region in the country.

This brings up the hard question. Should they really rebuilt New Orleans? Should be really be so determined to rebuilt just for the sake of rebuilding, just to take on the challenge? Sure there's a lot of history and memories, but wasn't history and those memories built on impractical ground.

That's a good question. It will be interesting to see how many people take their FEMA money and insurance settlements and never come back. Often people will tend to just rebuild in the same location but with shear horror of this disaster which will easily surpass 9/11 I'd expect some people to take the little bit of money they get and run. They could also sell their N.O. land at a later date. Perhaps in some cases the Federal government will buy their property if it's in a certain location.

To answer your question I would first off say yes. Here's why, New Orleans is the home of the busiest throughput port in the country. It's the home of a vast portion of the American petrochemical industry which isn't going to move any time soon. It's one of the oldest and most historic cities in America with significant cultural value. Yes it also can be trashy too but it's still significant. We just don't abandon a major city if we don't have to.

This city could have, should have and can be better prepaired. There is no reason why a Dutch style levee system can not be built around New Orleans that can save it from such a disaster. No the hurricanes and the distruction they usual bring will not go away but the flooding aspect is what has and is really magnifying this disaster not just for that city but for this country. We've only just begun to see the ramifications on a political, social, humanitarian, economical, public health and environmental level just from the flood alone.

The bottom line is the existing system is an old outdated patch work that may have held up to a fast moving cat. 3 hurricane at best. Enough of us knew it was a disaster waiting to happen and our leaders failed to invest in a system that could have protected New Orleans in a very significant way but they foolishly chose not to. Hell, even Bill Oreilly on the "fair and balanced channel" is understanding and questioning the folly of this failure of our government to do it's job. He basically said that we're taxed up to our ears, we have enormous debt and we're at war but this is arguably a national security level issue that should have been addressed.

Watch out because we're headed for another body blow to our economy. Gas prices are going up, up and up at the pump by the hour and a major portion of America's industry and economy is going to be out operation for months. It's going to reveal some very ugly truths about our country. I'm ashamed and embarassed for this country right now.

Real wealth is created where it gets cold.

Not completely true anymore if ever.

The Govt. moved entire towns in the midwest during the floods of 93. "your town is built on a flood plain, that's not smart, so we are going to not let you live there..." I fail to see the difference about NO. Sure, there are more people, but same concept.

But then I fail to see why people live in Califonia....besides the shortage of water, earthquakes, mudslides and wildfires. What about a govt "we'll bail you out once, after that you are on your own..."

(I know too simplistic, but I can hope for rational thought, right?)

mm
(hey, what am I doing in PO? I must be really bored...)

Prudent choices should be made regarding some specific locations but think about how places in United States are not prone to disaster. There aren't many. North America has a fairly unique profile in terms of meteorological and geological characteristics when they are all summed up.

Not completely true anymore if ever.

Sure it is... it just gets spent where it is warm ;)

Several reasons:

1. The "hurricane prone areas" include most of the entire east coast, most of the west coast, and all of the south coast. Plus the inland areas. So, roughly 50% of the usable land in the nation.

No hurricane has hit the west coast of the U.S. since records have been kept, although a tropical storm (50 mph winds) did hit Long Beach in 1939. If you want to scare people away from California, you need to say "earthquakes".

Ah, but you forget about all the American lives the war in Iraq has saved. You fail to see the big picture. Had we not gone to war with Iraq, there would have been countless catastrophic terrorist attacks on the US that make Katrina's damage pale in comparison. We have thwarted countless attacks... I can't even begin to calculate the benefits of the war.

Are you kidding? Only a dirty bomb could have pho-ked up N.O. worse. This is worse than 9/11. People from N.O. are probably thinking Iraq would probably be a better place to be right now and over 1,000 people died there in one day alone just yesterday! Saving lives! Are you on dope? Can't calculate the Benefits of the war? Are you seriously nuts? You can't because there are none. Cracker please!

Sure it is... it just gets spent where it is warm ;)

California alone is one of the largest economies in the world. South Pasadena - Today: Mostly sunny. High 84F. Winds SSW at 5 to 10 mph.

This brings up the hard question. Should they really rebuilt New Orleans? Should be really be so determined to rebuilt just for the sake of rebuilding, just to take on the challenge? Sure there's a lot of history and memories, but wasn't history and those memories built on impractical ground.

I've been on the fence on this one but I'm leaning toward rebuilding. New Orleans is an important historic American city. It is/was picturesque and is/was as ancient a settlement you can still find in this country. As long as it is rebuilt with the upgraded levees they have been denied over the last few years.

upgraded levees they have been denied over the last few years.

Actually try about 40 or 50 years to be truthful. Holland got their act together with their levees back in to 1950's. Why not this country?

Defending the homeland is one thing but maybe we've spent too much money on fighting too many foolish wars since WWII.

west coast hurricane ain't gonna happen until the water off Northern Baja gets over 70 degrees. since I've never seen it above the lo 60's we have little to worry about. talking about the cost of what it takes (the 72 million in Iraq war dollars to time). We spend in 8hrs in Iraq the TOTAL national budget for protecting ALL forms of rail traffic. So the entire annual budget for rail, subway etc... which includes LARGE volumes of citizens and sometimes highly flammable and/or toxic substances is equivalent to 8 hrs of War.

west coast hurricane ain't gonna happen until the water off Northern Baja gets over 70 degrees. since I've never seen it above the lo 60's we have little to worry about. talking about the cost of what it takes (the 72 million in Iraq war dollars to time). We spend in 8hrs in Iraq the TOTAL national budget for protecting ALL forms of rail traffic. So the entire annual budget for rail, subway etc... which includes LARGE volumes of citizens and sometimes highly flammable and/or toxic substances is equivalent to 8 hrs of War.

don't put facts out like that, makes the admin seem myopic and stupid like....oh wait, never mind

don't put facts out like that, makes the admin seem myopic and stupid like....oh wait, never mind

Here's a piece from March 7, 2002 from the Clarion-Ledger on the circumstances of Mike Parker's firing. Parker was the former Republican congressman from Mississippi who briefly served as head of the Army Corps of Engineers from late 2001 to early 2002. Here are the first several grafs ...

* The assistant secretary of the Army, Mississippi's former U.S. Rep. Mike Parker, was forced out Wednesday after he criticized the Bush administration's proposed spending cuts on Army Corps of Engineers' water projects, members of Congress said.
"Apparently he was asked to resign," said U.S. Rep. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., a member of the House Appropriations Committee's energy and water development subcommittee that oversees the corps' budget.

* Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, also said Parker was dismissed.

* Parker's nomination to head the corps drew heavy criticism last year from environmental groups pushing to downsize the agency, calling its flood control projects too costly and destructive.

* Parker earned the ire of administration officials when he questioned Bush's planned budget cuts for the corps, including two controversial Mississippi projects.

* "I think he was fired for being too honest and not loyal enough to the president," said lobbyist Colin Bell, who represents communities with corps-funded projects.

* Bell said Parker resigned about noon after being given about 30 minutes to choose between resigning or being fired.


And there's more...Much was made at the time and since about the fact that James Lee Witt was the first head of FEMA who had a professional background in emergency and disaster management.

No one seems to dispute the fact that prior to 1993, the agency was a dumping ground for patronage hires. (The change was also furthered by a devastating 1992 GAO report.)

President Bush replaced Witt with Joe Allbaugh, whose main qualification was that he was one of the president's main political fixers from Texas.

When Allbaugh left FEMA in 2003 to cash in on the Iraqi contracts bonanza, he was replaced by Michael Brown. Allbaugh originally brought Brown to FEMA as General Counsel. His qualification was that they were college buddies.

When Allbaugh bailed, he apparently gave the top job to Brown.

from What a Friggin Liar

a) ignore expert opinion, even when it's on the hair on fire level

NEW INSERT b) Fire anyone with a contrary opinion and replace with patronage policy yes man with little actual 'real time' knowledge or experience

c) have a crisis

d) react slowly, wait a day or 2

e) don't send enough support

f) claim 'whoda thunk?'

Are you kidding? Only a dirty bomb could have pho-ked up N.O. worse. This is worse than 9/11. People from N.O. are probably thinking Iraq would probably be a better place to be right now and over 1,000 people died there in one day alone just yesterday! Saving lives! Are you on dope? Can't calculate the Benefits of the war? Are you seriously nuts? You can't because there are none. Cracker please!

I am very kidding... you must be new around here ;)

I am very kidding... you must be new around here ;)

Sorry... Not new, just very fired up.

a suitcase size dirty bomb most likely would have done less damage in NO than the Hurricane, let alone the Gulf Coast.

a suitcase size dirty bomb most likely would have done less damage in NO than the Hurricane, let alone the Gulf Coast.


Maybe... it depends on how dirty the bomb would be.

Every time I hear the word dirty bomb I imagine Dirty Love by Zappa in my head only he's singing....

Give me
Your dirty bomb
Like you might surrender
To some dragon in your dreams

Give me
Your dirty bomb
Like a pink donation
To the dragon in your dreams


...well, you get the picture.

. People from N.O. are probably thinking Iraq would probably be a better place to be right now

some of the national guard guys interviewed, who've spent time in iraq over the past couple years, say they'd rather be back there than in NO. that says a lot, right there.

some of the national guard guys interviewed, who've spent time in iraq over the past couple years, say they'd rather be back there than in NO. that says a lot, right there.


Watch out you might offend someones sensibilities about troops or something. ;)

No one seems to dispute the fact that prior to 1993, the agency was a dumping ground for patronage hires. (The change was also furthered by a devastating 1992 GAO report.)

President Bush replaced Witt with Joe Allbaugh, whose main qualification was that he was one of the president's main political fixers from Texas.

When Allbaugh left FEMA in 2003 to cash in on the Iraqi contracts bonanza, he was replaced by Michael Brown. Allbaugh originally brought Brown to FEMA as General Counsel. His qualification was that they were college buddies.


...perfect.

Whatever the cost would have been to build a levee system on par with what the Dutch have built is a pittance compaired to the cost of this flood.
Being a Dutchman I can say this: We had some (minor) floods in the nineties and the government decided to crank up the standard so there's a statsitical likelihood of flooding once in 10,000 years for densely populated areas and once every 1,250 years for rural areas. A 2002 survey in the US showed an average statistical likelihood of flooding once in 230 years. It takes a lot of money though, and taxraises never seem to pull the votes....