"no one ever imagined that they would use airplanes as missiles".


the more things change, the more they stay the same.

GWB: "No one anticipated these levees would be breached" Just heard this quote on NPR's hourly news. Right George. The NO Times is of course disputing that, saying that millions that were supposed to go to Levee repairs instead went to "Homeland Security" and the Iraq War.

There goes the liberal media again. My idiot neighbor calls them NPLR, National Liberal Public Radio.

a) ignore expert opinion, even when it's on the hair on fire level

b) have a crisis

c) react slowly, wait a day or 2

d) don't semd enough support

e) claim 'whoda thunk?'


uh George that's what the Army Corp was askin fer money for. that's what those contractors working for free werer worried about.....

Yep, FEMA deemed the condition of the levees to be a matter of national importance back in 1995. The Clinton Administration layed the groundwork for the improvements to the levees. The responsibility for the completion of the upgrades were passed onto George W. Bush's Administration when he was elected in 2000.

The Army Corps of Engineers requested the money from the Bush II Administration in 2001. Year after year they have been denied funding because they had other more pressing things on the Bush agenda like a tax cut for the richest 1% of Americans, homeland security and the war in Iraq. Isn't it ironic that this catastrophe is now being managed under the auspices of the Dept. of Homeland Security.

While it is the liberal and mainstream media that are reporting on the "budgetary lapses" of the Bush Administration, I wouldn't exactly call FEMA or the Army Corps of Engingeers liberal organizations.

guess he does not read scientific american then. no surprise though.


http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?ITEMIDCHAR=D58B96E1-60BC-4C0F-BCE2-8C9B8A05275&methodnameCHAR=&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&sequencenameCHAR=itemP

GWB: "No one anticipated these levees would be breached" Just heard this quote on NPR's hourly news. Right George. The NO Times is of course disputing that, saying that millions that were supposed to go to Levee repairs instead went to "Homeland Security" and the Iraq War.

There goes the liberal media again. My idiot neighbor calls them NPLR, National Liberal Public Radio.

That's funny that your neighbor calls NPR National Liberal Public Radio, because as far as just plain old news coverage, they are about as unbiased a source as I've ever listened to. A lot of times, they present 2 sides of every story (if applicable). Like I remember when they were doing some coverage of the Tom Delay fiasco. They talked to a Dem, and then gave the last word to a Republican. I'm sure if you can be more balanced than that, and the person giving the interviews did not interject their own view, just asked the basic question of do you think he did something wrong and why or why not? I'm sure your neighbor LOVES FoxNews though doesn't he/she? And a lot of times, NPR doesn't even have "news" coverage on. Instead they have shows like Car Talk, Prairie Home Companion, Back Porch Music, Thistle and Shamrock, Fresh Air, and other stuff that lots of times has absolutely NOTHING to do with politics or news at all. Fresh Air does sometimes, but lots of times she's talking to movie stars or musicians, or other celebrities, and very seldom does politics enter into her conversations, unless of course she's talking to a politician or pundit of some sort.

Anyway, I have a couple of friends from New Orleans who don't even live there anymore, and THEY knew about the levee problems, and we're supposed to believe that the President of the US didn't know about these problems? Yeah, OK... Whatever. Didn't New Orleans have a very close call with another hurricane last year, that had it not shifted direction, they would have gotten waylaid then? How come it takes 3 days for FEMA and other federal and state organizations to respond to this diasaster? It's not like they didn't know it was coming. You only had to turn on the weather channel to see that monster rolling towards the Gulf Coast. Wouldn't it have been prudent to have stuff lined up, ready to roll BEFORE the hurricane came ashore?

GWB: "No one anticipated these levees would be breached" Just heard this quote on NPR's hourly news. Right George. The NO Times is of course disputing that, saying that millions that were supposed to go to Levee repairs instead went to "Homeland Security" and the Iraq War.

There goes the liberal media again. My idiot neighbor calls them NPLR, National Liberal Public Radio.


It's really sad what America has come to. I listen to NPR and Rush Limbaugh with equal disdain. Party politics will be the end of a great nation. We can't even get through a natural disaster without pundits on both sides pointing fingers. It's truely sad.

That's funny that your neighbor calls NPR National Liberal Public Radio, because as far as just plain old news coverage, they are about as unbiased a source as I've ever listened to. A lot of times, they present 2 sides of every story (if applicable). Like I remember when they were doing some coverage of the Tom Delay fiasco. They talked to a Dem, and then gave the last word to a Republican. I'm sure if you can be more balanced than that, and the person giving the interviews did not interject their own view, just asked the basic question of do you think he did something wrong and why or why not? I'm sure your neighbor LOVES FoxNews though doesn't he/she? And a lot of times, NPR doesn't even have "news" coverage on. Instead they have shows like Car Talk, Prairie Home Companion, Back Porch Music, Thistle and Shamrock, Fresh Air, and other stuff that lots of times has absolutely NOTHING to do with politics or news at all. Fresh Air does sometimes, but lots of times she's talking to movie stars or musicians, or other celebrities, and very seldom does politics enter into her conversations, unless of course she's talking to a politician or pundit of some sort.

Anyway, I have a couple of friends from New Orleans who don't even live there anymore, and THEY knew about the levee problems, and we're supposed to believe that the President of the US didn't know about these problems? Yeah, OK... Whatever. Didn't New Orleans have a very close call with another hurricane last year, that had it not shifted direction, they would have gotten waylaid then? How come it takes 3 days for FEMA and other federal and state organizations to respond to this diasaster? It's not like they didn't know it was coming. You only had to turn on the weather channel to see that monster rolling towards the Gulf Coast. Wouldn't it have been prudent to have stuff lined up, ready to roll BEFORE the hurricane came ashore?

Bingo. My OTHER neighbor has stated that they only watch Fox News. She is a strict Catholic and he is converting. She said she could not sleep and was crying when the Terri Schiavo thing was in the news. She said Terri was responding and could recover. Right out of the Fox News playbook. The neighbor that calls it NLPR is a bible thumper that nearly started spouting out quotes when I told him that I believe homosexuality is genetic. They don’t read the newspaper and I don’t know where they get their news but they seem pretty ignorant of world events, but very intolerant of others but they sure love Jesus. THEY just threatened their next door neighbors with a lawsuit if they didn’t keep their sweet playful golden retriever out of their yard. I CANNOT wait for one of their three young boys to come out of the closet 10 years from now. These people aren't some dumb old rednecks either. They are educated and in their 30's. One wife doesn't work (they have three kids), the Catholic wife does. The Catholic husband is a financial planner and the bible thumper is a graphic designer.

In the interest of full disclosure, I used to be much more conservative than I am now. I also thought NPR was very liberal (and they were) but now I think it’s an excellent news source.

The state of our nation is truely sad on all levels not just any one specific aspect.


....and Bush is a liar. Disgraceful. Period.

Did you all here Bush muttering on defending the response? Something about it taking time to float all the boats....

Did you all here Scott McCellan dodge a question about the lack of funding for the levees by saying know is not the time for politics and finger pointing?

These guys are phonies all the way.

Did you all here Bush muttering on defending the response? Something about it taking time to float all the boats....

Did you all here Scott McCellan dodge a question about the lack of funding for the levees by saying know is not the time for politics and finger pointing?

These guys are phonies all the way.

"phonies?" More like dumb criminals.

"phonies?" More like dumb criminals.

OK OK.... you don't have to twist my arm.;)

GWB: "No one anticipated these levees would be breached"

Levys break. Why wouldn't anybody who has any sense anticipate that might happen? In 1993 we had a record flood here in the Mississippi valley. We had two major levy breaks plus one or two additional close calls in the St. Louis area. Neither was overtopped, both just broke from the pressure of the water. So guess what we've done since that time. Our local governmental bodies can't wait to build more levy's and to promote more flood plain development. I can't express how incredably dumb that sounds to me.

Levys break. Why wouldn't anybody who has any sense anticipate that might happen? In 1993 we had a record flood here in the Mississippi valley. We had two major levy breaks plus one or two additional close calls in the St. Louis area. Neither was overtopped, both just broke from the pressure of the water. So guess what we've done since that time. Our local governmental bodies can't wait to build more levy's and to promote more flood plain development. I can't express how incredably dumb that sounds to me.

In St. Louis we got the longest stipmall in the country after repairing the damaged Monarch levy. The Hummer dealership has a 50 acre playground where prospective buyers can test out future purchases. If an older weaker levy somewhere else breaks I guess it's just tough luck for those poor suckers. :(

Yep, FEMA deemed the condition of the levees to be a matter of national importance back in 1995. The Clinton Administration layed the groundwork for the improvements to the levees. The responsibility for the completion of the upgrades were passed onto George W. Bush's Administration when he was elected in 2000.

The Army Corps of Engineers requested the money from the Bush II Administration in 2001. Year after year they have been denied funding because they had other more pressing things on the Bush agenda like a tax cut for the richest 1% of Americans, homeland security and the war in Iraq. Isn't it ironic that this catastrophe is now being managed under the auspices of the Dept. of Homeland Security.

While it is the liberal and mainstream media that are reporting on the "budgetary lapses" of the Bush Administration, I wouldn't exactly call FEMA or the Army Corps of Engingeers liberal organizations.


For Gods sake I saw an hour long program on the Discovery channel this spring that delt specifically with what would happen to New Orleans if a hurricane were to hit the city. How f@cking willfully ignorent can you be!

MALVEAUX: Let me ask you this: There are some people at the New Orleans Convention Center who say that they have been living like animals -- no food, no water, no power. And they are the ones who are saying: Where are the buses? Where are the planes? Why did it take three days to see a real federal response here? Mr. Bush, you, whether it's fair or not, had gone through some administration criticism about your handling of Hurricane Andrew. G.H.W. BUSH: I sure did.

MALVEAUX: Do you believe that this is legitimate?

G.H.W. BUSH: Yes, I do. What happened? We all sighed with -- not legitimate. I believe that they ought not to be as upset, but I can understand why they are. We thought, a lot of people thought, that when the hurricane went to the right a little bit, New Orleans was going to be spared. And it was only the next day that, you know, there were these horrible problems with the levee. But, look, if I were sitting there with no shower, no ability to use bathroom facilities, worried about my family, not knowing where they were, I'd blame anybody and so you have to expect that.

MALVEAUX: But do you think this administration responded quickly enough?

G.H.W. BUSH: Of course I do.

CLINTON: Let me answer this. The people in the Superdome are in a special position. And let me say, I've been going to New Orleans for over 50 years. There's no place on earth I love more. They went into the Superdome, not because of the flooding, but because we thought the hurricane was going to hit New Orleans smack dab and they'd be safe in there if they didn't leave town.

What happened was, when the levee broke and the town flooded, what did it do? It knocked out the electricity and it knocked out the sewage. They're living in hellacious conditions. They would be better off under a tree than being stuck there. You can't even breathe in that place now.

So I understand why they're so anxiety-ridden. But they have to understand, by the time it became obvious that they were in the fix they were in, there were a lot of other problems, too. There were people -- they were worried about people drowning that had to be taken off roofs.

MALVEAUX: So you two believe that the federal response was fast enough?

CLINTON: All I'm saying is what I know the facts are today. There are hundreds of buses now engaged in the act of taking people from New Orleans to the Astrodome in Houston. And you and I are not in a position to make any judgment because we weren't there.

All I'm saying is the way they got stuck there, I see why they feel the way they do. But the people that put them there did it because they thought they were saving their lives. And then when the problems showed up, they had a lot of other people to save. Now they've got hundreds of buses. We just need to get them out. I think they'll all be out by tomorrow. Didn't they say they would all be out by tomorrow morning?

G.H.W. BUSH: Yes.

MALVEAUX: OK. Well, thank you very much. I'm sorry. We've run out of time. Thank you.

G.H.W. BUSH: Let me -- I just to want finish. I believe the administration is doing the right thing, and I believe they have acted in a timely fashion. And I understand people being critical. That happens all the time. And I understand some people wanted to make, you know, a little difficulty by criticizing the president and the team. But I don't want to sit here and not defend the administration which, in my view, has taken all the right steps. And they're facing problems that nobody could foresee: breaking of the levees and the whole dome thing over in New Orleans coming apart. People couldn't foresee that.

CLINTON: Yes, I think that's important to point out. Because when you say that they should have done this, that or the other thing first, you can look at that problem in isolation, and you can say that.

But look at all the other things they had to deal with. I'm telling you, nobody thought this was going to happen like this. But what happened here is they escaped -- New Orleans escaped Katrina. But it brought all the water up the Mississippi River and all in the Pontchartrain, and then when it started running and that levee broke, they had problems they never could have foreseen.

And so I just think that we need to recognize right now there's a confident effort under way. People are doing the best they can. And I just don't think it's the time to worry about that. We need to keep people alive and get them back to life -- normal life.

Steam, the problem is that is WAS foreseen. Hell, it was predicted. Has been for decades. Pretty much by the same people who are predicting problems with the environment. How many catastrophes do they need to be right about before people start heeding their warnings?

I find it amusing what we place importance on. I wonder how many people who lost everything in NO support the war that diverted funds away from the levies they needed.

Side Note: Many of same folks that were predicting the destruction of New Orleans have also been screaming about our oil dependency.

This was a response to how what Bush said, was perceived. He did not mean that no one ever thought the levees would not break given the right circumstances. He meant exaxtly what Clinton said, that once the storm passed, everyone thought NO was out of the woods. That was obviously a miscalculation.

Also, the idea that the upgrading of the levees should fall on Bush's shoulders is BS. To begin with the upgrading of the levee system has been knocked down by Congress for at least two decades. Second, the section of the levee that was breached was one that was most recently upgraded. So evidently the CoE did not do something right.

This is from the NY Times
The 17th Street levee that gave way and led to the flooding of New Orleans was part of an intricate, aging system of barriers and pumps that was so chronically underfinanced that senior regional officials of the Army Corps of Engineers complained about it publicly for years. Often leading the chorus was Alfred C. Naomi, a senior project manager for the corps and a 30-year veteran of efforts to waterproof a city built on slowly sinking mud, surrounded by water and periodically a target of great storms. ...

"A breach under these conditions was ultimately not surprising," he said last night. "I had hoped that we had overdesigned it to a point that it would not fail. But you can overdesign only so much, and then a failure has to come."

No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls.

Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded."

"It did not have an earthen levee," Dr. Penland said. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick."

This was a response to how what Bush said, was perceived. Always a GWB apologist.

And would you care to explain his lazy response to the hurricane and the flood. He hasn't exactly been Noah or Rudy or Presidential. Why didn't he immediately lead the charge to get people out and get in food, etc.?

and thats not the worst of it. according to the weather forecast bush is going to make it rain there next week to punish the refugees still left in the city. they've gotten his ire up and he's pissed.

what a frikkin circle jerk of blame this forum has become. you guys are priceless.
Yeah, right. If a Democratic President behaved the way GWB has, you'd be the first to call for his impeachment.

Always a GWB apologist.

And would you care to explain his lazy response to the hurricane and the flood. He hasn't exactly been Noah or Rudy or Presidential. Why didn't he immediately lead the charge to get people out and get in food, etc.?


and thats not the worst of it. according to the weather forecast bush is going to make it rain there next week to punish the refugees still left in the city. they've gotten his ire up and he's pissed.

what a frikkin circle jerk of blame this forum has become. you guys are priceless.

This was a response to how what Bush said, was perceived. He did not mean that no one ever thought the levees would not break given the right circumstances. He meant exaxtly what Clinton said, that once the storm passed, everyone thought NO was out of the woods. That was obviously a miscalculation.

Also, the idea that the upgrading of the levees should fall on Bush's shoulders is BS. To begin with the upgrading of the levee system has been knocked down by Congress for at least two decades. Second, the section of the levee that was breached was one that was most recently upgraded. So evidently the CoE did not do something right.

This is from the NY Times
The attitude that led to the situation in NO has been prevalent for decades. This was a known issue for decades. Hell, I remember watching a show about it years ago. That people can know this and vote against funding the fix is beyond me. I don't blame Bush's policies for the situation as Congress has been under Republican control for how long now? No, I blame the voters who support policies that run contrary to their best interests. Let them reap what they've sown.

no, but my dad can whip your dad. blame on!
To quote GWB: "whatever."

Yeah, right. If a Democratic President behaved the way GWB has, you'd be the first to call for his impeachment.

no, but my dad can whip your dad. blame on!

FEMA, before the storm hit, had relief supplies and personnel in place ahead of what would normally be expected. Bush sign an order to allow for this. However, the circumstances changes so quickly and drastically, that the preplanning was worthless. Also, no one expect that our own US citizens would be shooting at those trying to rescue them.

You want to blame Bush, go right ahead. I expect nothing less than the ankle-biting that is taking place among you libs.

This was a response to how what Bush said, was perceived. He did not mean that no one ever thought the levees would not break given the right circumstances. He meant exaxtly what Clinton said, that once the storm passed, everyone thought NO was out of the woods. That was obviously a miscalculation.
So are you saying that if the levees had been breached on Monday during the storm, FEMA had a plan in place to get food and water to the refugees quickly, but that because the levees didn't break until Tuesday, this plan couldn't be implemented?

I agree with much of what you say. If the Corps of Engineers had been fully funded, they wouldn't have completed their floodproofing until 2010 at the earliest. The problems date back to bad flood management policy that hasn't fundamentally changed since around 1900 so it's unfair to blame Bush for bad decisions that have enjoyed broad bipartisan support for over 100 years.

However, it is fair to blame Bush for failing to have a workable response plan in place for what his administration had previously deemed one of the three greatest threats to homeland security.

Here's what the Times Picayune predicted three years ago (http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/thebigone_1.html):

"As the eye impacts the Mississippi coastline, the winds are now blowing south across the lake, maybe at 50, 80, 100 mph, and all that water starts to move south," he said. "It's moving like a big army advancing toward the lake's hurricane-protection system. And then the winds themselves are generating waves, 5 to 10 feet high, on top of all that water. They'll be breaking and crashing along the sea wall."

Soon waves will start breaking over the levee.

"All of a sudden you'll start seeing flowing water. It'll look like a weir, water just pouring over the top," Suhayda said. The water will flood the lakefront, filling up low-lying areas first, and continue its march south toward the river. There would be no stopping or slowing it; pumping systems would be overwhelmed and submerged in a matter of hours.

"Another scenario is that some part of the levee would fail," Suhayda said. "It's not something that's expected. But erosion occurs, and as levees broke, the break will get wider and wider. The water will flow through the city and stop only when it reaches the next higher thing. The most continuous barrier is the south levee, along the river. That's 25 feet high, so you'll see the water pile up on the river levee."

As the floodwaters invade and submerge neighborhoods, the wind will be blowing at speeds of at least 155 mph, accompanied by shorter gusts of as much as 200 mph, meteorologists say, enough to overturn cars, uproot trees and toss people around like dollhouse toys.

The wind will blow out windows and explode many homes, even those built to the existing 110-mph building-code standards. People seeking refuge from the floodwaters in high-rise buildings won't be very safe, recent research indicates, because wind speed in a hurricane gets greater with height. If the winds are 155 mph at ground level, scientists say, they may be 50 mph stronger 100 feet above street level.

Buildings also will have to withstand pummeling by debris picked up by water surging from the lakefront toward downtown, with larger pieces acting like battering rams.

Ninety percent of the structures in the city are likely to be destroyed by the combination of water and wind accompanying a Category 5 storm, said Robert Eichorn, former director of the New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness. The LSU Hurricane Center surveyed numerous large public buildings in Jefferson Parish in hopes of identifying those that might withstand such catastrophic winds. They found none.

Amid this maelstrom, the estimated 200,000 or more people left behind in an evacuation will be struggling to survive. Some will be housed at the Superdome, the designated shelter in New Orleans for people too sick or infirm to leave the city. Others will end up in last-minute emergency refuges that will offer minimal safety. But many will simply be on their own, in homes or looking for high ground.

Thousands will drown while trapped in homes or cars by rising water. Others will be washed away or crushed by debris. Survivors will end up trapped on roofs, in buildings or on high ground surrounded by water, with no means of escape and little food or fresh water, perhaps for several days.

"If you look at the World Trade Center collapsing, it'll be like that, but add water," Eichorn said. "There will be debris flying around, and you're going to be in the water with snakes, rodents, nutria and fish from the lake. It's not going to be nice."

Mobilized by FEMA, search and rescue teams from across the nation will converge on the city. Volunteer teams of doctors, nurses and emergency medical technicians that were pre-positioned in Monroe or Shreveport before the storm will move to the area, said Henry Delgado, regional emergency coordinator for the U.S. Public Health Service.

But just getting into the city will be a problem for rescuers. Approaches by road may be washed out.

"Whether or not the Airline Highway bridge across the Bonnet Carre Spillway survives, we don't know," said Jay Combe, a coastal hydraulic engineer with the corps. "The I-10 bridge (west of Kenner) is designed to withstand a surge from a Category 3 storm, but it may be that water gets under the spans, and we don't know if it will survive." Other bridges over waterways and canals throughout the city may also be washed away or made unsafe, he said. In a place where cars may be useless, small boats and helicopters will be used to move survivors to central pickup areas, where they can be moved out of the city. Teams of disaster mortuary volunteers, meanwhile, will start collecting bodies. Other teams will bring in temporary equipment and goods, including sanitation facilities, water, ice and generators. Food, water and medical supplies will be airdropped to some areas and delivered to others.

Stranded survivors will have a dangerous wait even after the storm passes. Emergency officials worry that energized electrical wires could pose a threat of electrocution and that the floodwater could become contaminated with sewage and with toxic chemicals from industrial plants and backyard sheds. Gasoline, diesel fuel and oil leaking from underground storage tanks at service stations may also become a problem, corps officials say

steam, you oughtta be grateful that clinton has enough class to cover for your boy george's ass, and not lay this utter show of incompetence straight on his ass, where it belongs. this administratiuon's response has been woefully inadequate, and far too late in coming. but bill's taking the high road, and being diplomatic about it.

you ought to be thanking him.


i think its more about clintons reluctance to pass up a free trip to the big easy and drink and cavort with hoochies who havent had any in a week or so.

steam, you oughtta be grateful that clinton has enough class to cover for your boy george's ass, and not lay this utter show of incompetence straight on his ass, where it belongs. this administratiuon's response has been woefully inadequate, and far too late in coming. but bill's taking the high road, and being diplomatic about it.

you ought to be thanking him.

So are you saying that if the levees had been breached on Monday during the storm, FEMA had a plan in place to get food and water to the refugees quickly, but that because the levees didn't break until Tuesday, this plan couldn't be implemented?

I agree with much of what you say. If the Corps of Engineers had been fully funded, they wouldn't have completed their floodproofing until 2010 at the earliest. The problems date back to bad flood management policy that hasn't fundamentally changed since around 1900 so it's unfair to blame Bush for bad decisions that have enjoyed broad bipartisan support for over 100 years.

However, it is fair to blame Bush for failing to have a workable response plan in place for what his administration had previously deemed one of the three greatest threats to homeland security.

Here's what the Times Picayune predicted three years ago (http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf?/washingaway/thebigone_1.html):

"As the eye impacts the Mississippi coastline, the winds are now blowing south across the lake, maybe at 50, 80, 100 mph, and all that water starts to move south," he said. "It's moving like a big army advancing toward the lake's hurricane-protection system. And then the winds themselves are generating waves, 5 to 10 feet high, on top of all that water. They'll be breaking and crashing along the sea wall."

Soon waves will start breaking over the levee.

"All of a sudden you'll start seeing flowing water. It'll look like a weir, water just pouring over the top," Suhayda said. The water will flood the lakefront, filling up low-lying areas first, and continue its march south toward the river. There would be no stopping or slowing it; pumping systems would be overwhelmed and submerged in a matter of hours.

"Another scenario is that some part of the levee would fail," Suhayda said. "It's not something that's expected. But erosion occurs, and as levees broke, the break will get wider and wider. The water will flow through the city and stop only when it reaches the next higher thing. The most continuous barrier is the south levee, along the river. That's 25 feet high, so you'll see the water pile up on the river levee."

As the floodwaters invade and submerge neighborhoods, the wind will be blowing at speeds of at least 155 mph, accompanied by shorter gusts of as much as 200 mph, meteorologists say, enough to overturn cars, uproot trees and toss people around like dollhouse toys.

The wind will blow out windows and explode many homes, even those built to the existing 110-mph building-code standards. People seeking refuge from the floodwaters in high-rise buildings won't be very safe, recent research indicates, because wind speed in a hurricane gets greater with height. If the winds are 155 mph at ground level, scientists say, they may be 50 mph stronger 100 feet above street level.

Buildings also will have to withstand pummeling by debris picked up by water surging from the lakefront toward downtown, with larger pieces acting like battering rams.

Ninety percent of the structures in the city are likely to be destroyed by the combination of water and wind accompanying a Category 5 storm, said Robert Eichorn, former director of the New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness. The LSU Hurricane Center surveyed numerous large public buildings in Jefferson Parish in hopes of identifying those that might withstand such catastrophic winds. They found none.

Amid this maelstrom, the estimated 200,000 or more people left behind in an evacuation will be struggling to survive. Some will be housed at the Superdome, the designated shelter in New Orleans for people too sick or infirm to leave the city. Others will end up in last-minute emergency refuges that will offer minimal safety. But many will simply be on their own, in homes or looking for high ground.

Thousands will drown while trapped in homes or cars by rising water. Others will be washed away or crushed by debris. Survivors will end up trapped on roofs, in buildings or on high ground surrounded by water, with no means of escape and little food or fresh water, perhaps for several days.

"If you look at the World Trade Center collapsing, it'll be like that, but add water," Eichorn said. "There will be debris flying around, and you're going to be in the water with snakes, rodents, nutria and fish from the lake. It's not going to be nice."

Mobilized by FEMA, search and rescue teams from across the nation will converge on the city. Volunteer teams of doctors, nurses and emergency medical technicians that were pre-positioned in Monroe or Shreveport before the storm will move to the area, said Henry Delgado, regional emergency coordinator for the U.S. Public Health Service.

But just getting into the city will be a problem for rescuers. Approaches by road may be washed out.

"Whether or not the Airline Highway bridge across the Bonnet Carre Spillway survives, we don't know," said Jay Combe, a coastal hydraulic engineer with the corps. "The I-10 bridge (west of Kenner) is designed to withstand a surge from a Category 3 storm, but it may be that water gets under the spans, and we don't know if it will survive." Other bridges over waterways and canals throughout the city may also be washed away or made unsafe, he said. In a place where cars may be useless, small boats and helicopters will be used to move survivors to central pickup areas, where they can be moved out of the city. Teams of disaster mortuary volunteers, meanwhile, will start collecting bodies. Other teams will bring in temporary equipment and goods, including sanitation facilities, water, ice and generators. Food, water and medical supplies will be airdropped to some areas and delivered to others.

Stranded survivors will have a dangerous wait even after the storm passes. Emergency officials worry that energized electrical wires could pose a threat of electrocution and that the floodwater could become contaminated with sewage and with toxic chemicals from industrial plants and backyard sheds. Gasoline, diesel fuel and oil leaking from underground storage tanks at service stations may also become a problem, corps officials say

From the mouth of Bush himself, I believe that he said that the response so far has been unacceptable...

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- President Bush told reporters on Friday that millions of tons of food and water are on the way to the people stranded in the wake of Hurricane Katrina -- but he said the results of the relief effort "are not acceptable."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html

So can you still apologize for the administrations response when Bush even says that their response thus far has been unacceptable??

i think its more about clintons reluctance to pass up a free trip to the big easy and drink and cavort with hoochies who havent had any in a week or so.
bill's proof that "I think, therefore I am" isn't true for everyone.

Pound O' Cure. since how many times has he passed up the 'ounce of prevention'

granted fully funded the levees wouldn't have been done. but with 40,000 homes detroyed in NO think what a 10% reduction in total damage by having some of the levees done./ how about 25% reduction, that's 10,000 homes.

the 72,000,000 he cut is spent in about 2-3 hrs in Iraq. I'm sure his tax cuts alone would have covered this. but oh well it's only Po' folks I guess.

From the mouth of Bush himself, I believe that he said that the response so far has been unacceptable...

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- President Bush told reporters on Friday that millions of tons of food and water are on the way to the people stranded in the wake of Hurricane Katrina -- but he said the results of the relief effort "are not acceptable."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html

So can you still apologize for the administrations response when Bush even says that their response thus far has been unacceptable??

course, he's not saying that his response to the disaster has been unacceptable. it's all those nameless, faceless, bureaucrats who've been dropping the ball.

course, he's not saying that his response to the disaster has been unacceptable. it's all those nameless, faceless, bureaucrats who've been dropping the ball.
It's never his fault is it?

Also, no one expect that our own US citizens would be shooting at those trying to rescue them.
Why not? I see it as the expected reaction of those who have finally realized that they've been screwed. I don't feel for them nor do I sympathize or agree with them, but it is what it is. The rest of the nation should take note.

No one 'screwed' them. Their actions are deplorable. First they raped the city. Then they raped their neighbors. They did not evacuate because they figured there would be good pickin's once everyone else left. Homes that were left by those that evacuated were broken into. Cars that were parked had their windows smashed. This all happened in dry areas. Now these loosers are shooting at those who are trying to rescue them. Police and other emergency workers have abandoned their jobs because they fear for their lives. So I guess the military has to clean up. However, if this were the first response, you can bet that the libs would have been shouting from the highest tree limbs that we were treating these people like the criminals they obviously are.

Hey Einstein, it doesn't work that way. All that needed to be breached was one levee, to do all of this destruction. You know water seeking it's own level and all! :rolleyes:

No one 'screwed' them. Their actions are deplorable. First they raped the city. Then they raped their neighbors. They did not evacuate because they figured there would be good pickin's once everyone else left. Homes that were left by those that evacuated were broken into. Cars that were parked had their windows smashed. This all happened in dry areas. Now these loosers are shooting at those who are trying to rescue them. Police and other emergency workers have abandoned their jobs because they fear for their lives. So I guess the military has to clean up. However, if this were the first response, you can bet that the libs would have been shouting from the highest tree limbs that we were treating these people like the criminals they obviously are.
*sigh* Had they only voted in their best interest in the first place, NO would be a little battered but mostly dry and mostly secure.

I'd have declared martial law before the storm hit and forceably evacuated the city. I have no problems with the shooting of looters, thugs and theives under these circumstances. Come to think of it, I have no problems with shooting theives under any circumstances.

Anyone who relies upon our government to serve their best interest is severly brain damaged, IMO.

and thats not the worst of it. according to the weather forecast bush is going to make it rain there next week to punish the refugees still left in the city. they've gotten his ire up and he's pissed.

what a frikkin circle jerk of blame this forum has become. you guys are priceless.

You really must be totally out of the loop on all the facts on this thing. Hell even Fox, O'Reilly, CNN an etc. have at the very least said those levees should have been fixed and upgraded and have at very least inferred the recovery effort has been insufficient. Speaking of pricless, a little of you go a long way. You've come into the wrong salon to pick a fight. Get a clue foo.

Steam, the problem is that is WAS foreseen. Hell, it was predicted. Has been for decades. Pretty much by the same people who are predicting problems with the environment. How many catastrophes do they need to be right about before people start heeding their warnings?

I find it amusing what we place importance on. I wonder how many people who lost everything in NO support the war that diverted funds away from the levies they needed.

Side Note: Many of same folks that were predicting the destruction of New Orleans have also been screaming about our oil dependency.

Clearly the Bush clan and Clinton were telling a bit of an old boy's fib in some regard.

Clearly the Bush clan and Clinton were telling a bit of an old boy's fib in some regard.
Clearly. NO is the direct result of politics as usual. People are pretty stupid.

granted fully funded the levees wouldn't have been done. but with 40,000 homes detroyed in NO think what a 10% reduction in total damage by having some of the levees done./ how about 25% reduction, that's 10,000 homes.
Actually the major levees that failed were not affected by the funding cuts. They had already been improved. Nothing about the Bush funding cuts made the levee breaches or flooding worse. Moreover, the Corps was underfunded for NO flood control under Clinton and Bush 41 as well.

The only thing I can see fairly blaming Bush for here was the failure to do adequate advance planning at FEMA/Homeland Security for what FEMA itself had identified several years before as the third greatest disaster risk the US faced.

The only sensible thing would not be to build more levees, but to do what Dennis Hastert recommended: bulldoze what's left of NO and rebuild somewhere above sea level. I'm a bleeding heart liberal and proud of it, but Hastert is right and it's too damned bad that everyone else is being so politically correct about it.

Clearly. NO is the direct result of politics as usual. People are pretty stupid.
The politics as usual goes back a hundred years. The problem is that the Corps of Engineers started trying to do control floods and navigability on the Mississippi using levees in the first place. It's a self-defeating strategy, trading off a reduction in common minor floods for greatly increased risks of rare but catastrophic ones. They should have learned from the 1927 floods, but they did not.

Blame for NO flooding is clearly bipartisan, but the responsibility for FEMA's clusterf*** in the aftermath lies squarely with the current commander in chief.

They did not evacuate because they figured there would be good pickin's once everyone else left.

WRONG STEAM! (pardon my caps)-

in N.O. (I've been listening to sat. radio reporting from BBC,CNN, et al)...most people there who can't afford cars-rely on public transit (which is apparently quite good-or was good enough).

Except when the evac order came---no one---gave any thought to these folks who had NO way to get out. They were caught--some of them have gone to looting (I heard something about hostage taking from someone 'round here...haven't heard anything like that on sat. radio news). All the public ways out were shut down, grey hound et al ditched town, etc....Most of these people also have no home insurance (at the least).


So the big question-doth ye conservative 'personal responsibilty' apply? They couldn't afford to get out-it's their own fault isn't it? Yes I'm being a sarcastic @$$ here-but it's for a point (which might make it ethically reasonable).

Except when the evac order came---no one---gave any thought to these folks who had NO way to get out. They were caught--some of them have gone to looting (I heard something about hostage taking from someone 'round here...haven't heard anything like that on sat. radio news). All the public ways out were shut down, grey hound et al ditched town, etc....Most of these people also have no home insurance (at the least).
Wasn't it the Democratic mayor who is responsible for waiting until the last minute to issue a mandatory evacuation order? The local government has a lot more responsibility than the President for the screw-up in delaying the evacuation order and failing to provide transportation for the poor!

As to the looting, it's hard to improve on the comment from Sri Lanka which I heard quoted on NPR this morning: "After the tsunami, we didn't have widespread mugging and raping. Now we know where the civilized world is, and it's not the United States."

Why don't we just change the name of this forum to the "I hate Bush" forum and be done with it? That's all it is any more, and I, for one, have really grown tired of it.

Actually the major levees that failed were not affected by the funding cuts. They had already been improved. Nothing about the Bush funding cuts made the levee breaches or flooding worse. Moreover, the Corps was underfunded for NO flood control under Clinton and Bush 41 as well.

.

no. from what i understand, the one that failed at 17th street(?) was one of the sections due to be upgraded and heightened.

no, but my dad can whip your dad. blame on!

Truth be told, my dad could make your dad a greasy pool of blood on the concrete. LOL

the idea that the upgrading of the levees should fall on Bush's shoulders is BS. To begin with the upgrading of the levee system has been knocked down by Congress for at least two decades. Second, the section of the levee that was breached was one that was most recently upgraded. So evidently the CoE did not do something right.

This is from the NY Times

It's fact that the building of a state of the art levee system should have been built decades ago. The current upgrade/repair project got the green light when Clinton was in office and when the Corps needed full funding in 2001 they didn't get what they needed to finish on schedule. That happened under the leadership of Bush and Congress which is controled by the Republicans. Is it possible the Corps may have had to cut corners on the repairs because they didn't have the funds they needed?

post 1 thing ole goat booker has done for us to love. then we can bake cookies and sing his praise. sorry, no matter how bad we get we'll never be as bad as the "I hate Clinton Years" the only time IMHO we'll ever speak of W after he's gone is when we're talking about the economic crisis, our national debt and our ME policy and it's repercussions.

so why don't we start now. "Boy, I think that doing a P-R Tour and Tossing in a little golf with a National disaster looming and in progress is very good leadership. It shows the American people to stay cool and calm and not to rush into anything" discuss

You love to be wrong. Courtesy of the NY Times
No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls. Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded."

"It did not have an earthen levee," Dr. Penland said. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick."

So whose fault is it? Do you think the Mayor of NO or the govenor of LA deserve blame? Planning for disaters starts at the local level. The mayor of NO dropped the ball big time on many fronts. Now he is trying to deflect blame to GW and all the libs and lib media are piling on. That is partisanship at it's worst.

NO never should have been allowed to develop the way it did. It is a city that sinks into the Earth 1 inch per year, no matter how big the levees are that protect it. As a matter of fact, there are experts that claim the levees and the pumping of ground water contribute to the sinking. So are we to spend billions trying to fix something that cannot be fixed?

No one 'screwed' them. Their actions are deplorable. First they raped the city. Then they raped their neighbors. They did not evacuate because they figured there would be good pickin's once everyone else left. Homes that were left by those that evacuated were broken into. Cars that were parked had their windows smashed. This all happened in dry areas. Now these loosers are shooting at those who are trying to rescue them. Police and other emergency workers have abandoned their jobs because they fear for their lives. So I guess the military has to clean up. However, if this were the first response, you can bet that the libs would have been shouting from the highest tree limbs that we were treating these people like the criminals they obviously are.

Always be a little wary of statements that us "they", "these", "those" and "them" so many times.

First off Steam, not all of the theys, these, those and thems were doing these truely deplorable acts. Law and order vanished and the few authorities on the ground could not effectively operate. Hell, there are even reports that I saw on Fox almost two days ago saying that some cops had also resorted to looting. No one here has excused any of the animals, many of which by the way were freed from the local jail, for what they're doing.
Here's a question I haven't heard asked yet on this forum, where did the N.O. Chief of Police go?

What we want to know is why has it taken so long for help to arrive on the scene in adequate numbers to reestablish order?

About the only thing of merit you posted was asking where the local authorities have gone. The local government in NO really dropped the ball. They did not get the city evacuated and obviously did not have a plan for this type of event, where everyone agrees was a disatser waiting to happen.

So blame the mayor and govenor. Blame the police chief. FEMA can only help when the local infrastructure is in place and ready to receive help. They were not because the local bureaucrats bungled this terribly.

Wasn't it the Democratic mayor who is responsible for waiting until the last minute to issue a mandatory evacuation order? The local government has a lot more responsibility than the President for the screw-up in delaying the evacuation order and failing to provide transportation for the poor!

As to the looting, it's hard to improve on the comment from Sri Lanka which I heard quoted on NPR this morning: "After the tsunami, we didn't have widespread mugging and raping. Now we know where the civilized world is, and it's not the United States."

Truth is that they seriously screwed the pooch too. I'm guessing after they ran their little hurricane Pam exercise a while back the folks at the top figured "Oh ****" and either gave up real hope of controlling things a little better. They were totally unprepaired. It makes me wonder whether they had the budget to be at all prepaired and if they did what did they do with the money? I would bet truth is that the city and parish didn't have the funding and the inefficiency and maybe even corruption of their operations where all a factor.

I want to know where the N.O. Chief of Police is?

The deplorable behavior of some of the locals, many of which had been sprung from the local jail is one part of a disgraceful situation on a vast scale.

How much can we really expect the local authorities to handle such a massive situation? Isn't this a top example of why we need an effective Federal goverment? Who all here has any faith that the local authorities could handle a disaster of this magnitude over an all-encompassing area where they live?

This is a national disgrace.

FEMA can only provide assistance to local authorities if the local authorities have a plan and have acted upon it. It is quite clear that NO and it's mayor had no plan.

So whose fault is it? Do you think the Mayor of NO or the govenor of LA deserve blame? Planning for disaters starts at the local level. The mayor of NO dropped the ball big time on many fronts. Now he is trying to deflect blame to GW and all the libs and lib media are piling on. That is partisanship at it's worst.

NO never should have been allowed to develop the way it did. It is a city that sinks into the Earth 1 inch per year, no matter how big the levees are that protect it. As a matter of fact, there are experts that claim the levees and the pumping of ground water contribute to the sinking. So are we to spend billions trying to fix something that cannot be fixed?

The blame should go from top to the bottom and bottom to the top.

It's way too late to rue and question the development of N.O. It's one of the oldest settlements and cities in America. Disrupting the natural flood process was not a wise choice but it goes way back in history of this country and the Mississippi River (hope I didn't miss an i). The levee issue not only relates to N.O. but the whole length of the river from the top down. Wow a top down theme is developing here. Is this an allegory?

Anyway, no doubt the levees and pumps do contribute to the sinking. However, it's way too late to go back and N.O. is truely too significant to this country to abandon. N.O. is the center of the American petrochemical industry and has the largest port in America just for starters. The problem can be fixed with engineering to the same extent that the Dutch have. This country spends billions all day long trying to "fix" external problems so spending billions on conserving N.O. is not a big deal. I hope I'm not being too conservative. ;)

About the only thing of merit you posted was asking where the local authorities have gone. The local government in NO really dropped the ball. They did not get the city evacuated and obviously did not have a plan for this type of event, where everyone agrees was a disatser waiting to happen.

So blame the mayor and govenor. Blame the police chief. FEMA can only help when the local infrastructure is in place and ready to receive help. They were not because the local bureaucrats bungled this terribly.
Steam, Steam, Steam...the hurricane destroyed the local infrastructure...plus isn't FEMA supposed to help in times of disaster? This wasn't your typical fire drill here. It was the real thing and FEMA looks like a bunch of pencil pushers with their thumbs in their butts rather than the feet on the street that is needed in this situation.

WRONG STEAM! (pardon my caps)-

in N.O. (I've been listening to sat. radio reporting from BBC,CNN, et al)...most people there who can't afford cars-rely on public transit (which is apparently quite good-or was good enough).

Except when the evac order came---no one---gave any thought to these folks who had NO way to get out. They were caught--some of them have gone to looting (I heard something about hostage taking from someone 'round here...haven't heard anything like that on sat. radio news). All the public ways out were shut down, grey hound et al ditched town, etc....Most of these people also have no home insurance (at the least).


So the big question-doth ye conservative 'personal responsibilty' apply? They couldn't afford to get out-it's their own fault isn't it? Yes I'm being a sarcastic @$$ here-but it's for a point (which might make it ethically reasonable).


More than 100,000 people according to the last census.

FEMA can only help when the local infrastructure is in place and ready to receive help.

LOL... FEMA is precisely for when the local infrastructure has been decimated. If the locals can't or fail to make ready for help the National Guard and in this immense case the military to some extent need to come in swiftly to restore order and prepair the ground for FEMA.

Steam, Steam, Steam...the hurricane destroyed the local infrastructure...plus isn't FEMA supposed to help in times of disaster? This wasn't your typical fire drill here. It was the real thing and FEMA looks like a bunch of pencil pushers with their thumbs in their butts rather than the feet on the street that is needed in this situation.

Love the London Calling pic. and your point is dead on.

Hey Einstein, it doesn't work that way. All that needed to be breached was one levee, to do all of this destruction. You know water seeking it's own level and all! :rolleyes:

There are higher, three-tier systems which the Dutch have been using with great success to keep out the North Sea since the 1950's. Don't call me Encyclopedia Brown.;)

FEMA can only provide assistance to local authorities if the local authorities have a plan and have acted upon it. It is quite clear that NO and it's mayor had no plan.


LOL... not even worth responding too that turd.

Why don't we just change the name of this forum to the "I hate Bush" forum and be done with it? That's all it is any more, and I, for one, have really grown tired of it.

OK... Bush is friggin liar and we hate him. Happy?

about another President who had an "Act of God" (Sandstorm) foil a rescue attempt. I also remember him suffering huge political fallout for it, so don't try to take a "we don't politicize tradgedy crap". Both sides always have and most likely always will.

Clearly. NO is the direct result of politics as usual. People are pretty stupid.


Perhaps another allegory?

about another President who had an "Act of God" (Sandstorm) foil a rescue attempt. I also remember him suffering huge political fallout for it, so don't try to take a "we don't politicize tradgedy crap". Both sides always have and most likely always will.

This is unfortunately true, and just speaks volumes as to Bush's handlers and how stupid they are.

It's not like we didn't know this hurricane was coming right? If Bush's handlers had been smart, they would have brought W back into DC last week, well before the storm hit the shores, and McClellan could have mentioned things like President Bush is busy taking meetings and helping to plan out the relief aid that is sure to come because of this impending storm. Nope, instead, he hung out in Texas until AFTER the storm had blown through, therefore negating any positive impact on his numbers that could have come from this situation. They blew it...

But for the dems, this is a great thing, because now we can proclaim how inept the Bush administration is at handling things, tragedies, and the like. We'll take potshots at him and so on and so forth, and most of it will be true, and his numbers will take a nosedive again. I'm betting there are going to be opportunities for democrats to take some House and or Senate seats in LA and MS when the voting comes again.

That's the downside to tragedy. There are going to be people who use it to gain.

the most proactive president. seems always to be reacting to bad decisions based on bad intel. he should listen to the experts instead of the idealogue yes men.

http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html#004749

Perhaps another allegory?
Nah, that pretty much sums it up I think.

so why don't we start now. "Boy, I think that doing a P-R Tour and Tossing in a little golf with a National disaster looming and in progress is very good leadership. It shows the American people to stay cool and calm and not to rush into anything" discuss
GWB sure is a proactive, visionary leader. ;)