Look my liberal friends on this board...

Normally, I'm pretty hip to beating down Bush for every little thing that we can, but in this case, the damn levee's breaking NOs, and the subsequent flooding, not Bush's fault. It's not anybody's fault really, it was a seriously bad natural disaster that couldn't be stopped or avoided, unless of course we know a "secret" way in the government that we have developed to change the course of weather, which even the most crazy conspiracy theorists wouldn't even think of. So the flooding, not Bush's fault. We could probably blame Mother Nature, and or God, but I don't think we lay this one at the feet of George W. Bush.

That being said, what we can blame him for is the lack of response that the deep South go in the first hours after the hurricane came through, and the lack of response that came up until the other day, and today, lack of response for some folks continues down there. So I think we can blame the Bush administration for some things like this, but not so much for the flooding.

Look my liberal friends on this board...

Normally, I'm pretty hip to beating down Bush for every little thing that we can, but in this case, the damn levee's breaking NOs, and the subsequent flooding, not Bush's fault. It's not anybody's fault really, it was a seriously bad natural disaster that couldn't be stopped or avoided, unless of course we know a "secret" way in the government that we have developed to change the course of weather, which even the most crazy conspiracy theorists wouldn't even think of. So the flooding, not Bush's fault. We could probably blame Mother Nature, and or God, but I don't think we lay this one at the feet of George W. Bush.

That being said, what we can blame him for is the lack of response that the deep South go in the first hours after the hurricane came through, and the lack of response that came up until the other day, and today, lack of response for some folks continues down there. So I think we can blame the Bush administration for some things like this, but not so much for the flooding.

Your first paragraph was very well put. I am taking your name off my list of known knee jerk Bush haters. Maybe I'll just put it in paratheses. :)

But seriously, the problem we witnessed in NO was due to the fact that so many poor didn't and/or couldn't heed the warning to get out. Everybody in the area was under mandatory evacutation.

Want to lay something at someone's feet. Start with the mayor of NO. He is the guy that was elected to be responsible for the folks in NO. What was the mayor of NO plan to evacuate the poor? Why did he fail to act? The federal government can't do everything for everybody all the time. It's not even legal.

The planet warms and cools, coastlines shift, natural disasters occur. These facts of nature have been occurring for a long long time. Are you (not you magnolialover, but the rhetorical you) going to tell me that Bush caused the warming that the planet went through 30,000 years ago?

I don't know why the response in NO seemed slow. It probably has something to do with this being the worst natural disaster in US history. I doubt it has anything to do with anybody not caring for any race of people or socio-economic class.

Okay, now all you knee jerk Bush haters that are still on the list feel free to tell me what an ape I am. And please be more creative than spouting off it's because of the war in Iraq. Unless we've sent all our buses to Iraq that could have been used to evacuate people from NO it's simply a non-starter.

Your first paragraph was very well put. I am taking your name off my list of known knee jerk Bush haters. Maybe I'll just put it in paratheses. :)

But seriously, the problem we witnessed in NO was due to the fact that so many poor didn't and/or couldn't heed the warning to get out. Everybody in the area was under mandatory evacutation.

Want to lay something at someone's feet. Start with the mayor of NO. He is the guy that was elected to be responsible for the folks in NO. What was the mayor of NO plan to evacuate the poor? Why did he fail to act? The federal government can't do everything for everybody all the time. It's not even legal.

The planet warms and cools, coastlines shift, natural disasters occur. These facts of nature have been occurring for a long long time. Are you (not you magnolialover, but the rhetorical you) going to tell me that Bush caused the warming that the planet went through 30,000 years ago?

I don't know why the response in NO seemed slow. It probably has something to do with this being the worst natural disaster in US history. I doubt it has anything to do with anybody not caring for any race of people or socio-economic class.

Okay, now all you knee jerk Bush haters that are still on the list feel free to tell me what an ape I am. And please be more creative than spouting off it's because of the war in Iraq. Unless we've sent all our buses to Iraq that could have been used to evacuate people from NO it's simply a non-starter.

I can sort of agree with this, it was the lower socio economic group of people in the deep South that failed to get out of the way of the hurricane, and there was a good reason, they really couldn't get out. They had no way to get out. I don't think that the Mayor of NO had the manpower, and or the transportation to get those people out of town. They didn't have enough transport to evacuate everyone. This is where the feds should have stepped in, meaning they should have gotten as many buses as they could down there to load people up, and get them away to some sort of "refugee camps" and such. They were calling for evacuations the Thursday before the storm came.

As I mentioned before, this storm is obviously not Bush's fault. But the federal response time was slow, and it was indeed a very horrible natural disaster, but I still think that the response could have been a heck of a lot faster. I don't know why the response time wasn't faster either, we probably won't know. It's not because the Bush administration didn't care about the people down there, but I have a feeling that it has something to do with Bush being out of DC when the storm came through.

There are some things that the Bush administration has done, unrelated to this storm that could have impacted the response time. The fact that Rumsfeld has sold out most of military transport to private contractors is one thing. We don't have as much military transport capability as we've had before in past times, mostly because Rumsfeld has privatized so much of it. About the only thing that Rumsfeld hasn't privatized and bidded out to contractors in the military is direct combat roles, the fighting.

I'm not a knee jerk Bush hater for the most part, it's just that there are so many things that he has done over the last 5 years or so that I don't like, the majority of things that he has done, I don't like. It just seems like a knee jerk Bush hating mantra because there are SO MANY things he's done that I don't like. But that's just me. What can I say?

I can sort of agree with this, it was the lower socio economic group of people in the deep South that failed to get out of the way of the hurricane, and there was a good reason, they really couldn't get out. They had no way to get out. I don't think that the Mayor of NO had the manpower, and or the transportation to get those people out of town. They didn't have enough transport to evacuate everyone.
They could have started with these...
Digital Globe (http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/katrina/new_orleans_msi_aug31_2005_dg.jpg)
Find the Superdome, then go northeast on the freeway about 3 miles to the edge of page, see all the yellow, those are 200+ buses sitting in the water. The mayor of NO should be in jail.

They could have started with these...
Digital Globe (http://www.digitalglobe.com/images/katrina/new_orleans_msi_aug31_2005_dg.jpg)
Find the Superdome, then go northeast on the freeway about 3 miles to the edge of page, see all the yellow, those are 200+ buses sitting in the water. The mayor of NO should be in jail.

If those are school buses, then yeah why weren't they used? I don't think those are school buses. They're not the right size or shape. And if those are school buses, there isn't 200 of them there, that would be a fairly high estimate on what those "things" are. Even if there were 200 buses there, let's assume you can fit 50 people onto them, best case, with their stuff (and this would be traveling sardine style), that would be what? 10,000 people max?? So what would you do with the other 100,000 or so that are still in the deep South? That's a pretty weak argument. If you want to start throwing people into jail, don't know if the mayor of NO is the right place to start.

If those are school buses, then yeah why weren't they used? I don't think those are school buses. They're not the right size or shape. And if those are school buses, there isn't 200 of them there, that would be a fairly high estimate on what those "things" are. Even if there were 200 buses there, let's assume you can fit 50 people onto them, best case, with their stuff (and this would be traveling sardine style), that would be what? 10,000 people max?? So what would you do with the other 100,000 or so that are still in the deep South? That's a pretty weak argument. If you want to start throwing people into jail, don't know if the mayor of NO is the right place to start.

Making an attempt with what you have cuz you actually want to get something would have been "the glorious achievment" in this story. Cramming as many people as possible onton buses that relayed people to the closest possible safety, which I assume would have been Baron Rouge, would have made a huge difference in getting people to safety.

That would have made the Mayor's argument that he was doing everything possible with what he had versus Bush doing nothing. The fact is the Mayor did nothing. He didn't stay cool and do the best with what was at hand. It seem that he panicked and complained afterwards. He failed his people. He was the authority in charge of NO. It was his judgement to preparedness that mattered most.

Bush and the federal government can't be expected to have a realistic excutable plan for every municipality in the US. The commander on the ground has to get it done.

Personally I don't think pointing fingers at anyone is helpful. Pointing fingers at Bush is far sighted to the highest degree. Who cares whose fault it was. Disasters happen. Responses to disasters take longer than anyone would like. Deal!!!!

If those are school buses, then yeah why weren't they used? I don't think those are school buses. They're not the right size or shape. And if those are school buses, there isn't 200 of them there, that would be a fairly high estimate on what those "things" are.

They are school busses. Using Google Earth a similar amount of busses are in the yard and you can easily count about 220 of them.
From the ground (http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/007188.html)

Personally I don't think pointing fingers at anyone is helpful. Pointing fingers at Bush is far sighted to the highest degree. Who cares whose fault it was. Disasters happen. Responses to disasters take longer than anyone would like. Deal!!!!

this after you spend two paragraphs pointing the finger at the mayor of new orleans.

Making an attempt with what you have cuz you actually want to get something would have been "the glorious achievment" in this story. Cramming as many people as possible onton buses that relayed people to the closest possible safety, which I assume would have been Baron Rouge, would have made a huge difference in getting people to safety.

That would have made the Mayor's argument that he was doing everything possible with what he had versus Bush doing nothing. The fact is the Mayor did nothing. He didn't stay cool and do the best with what was at hand. It seem that he panicked and complained afterwards. He failed his people. He was the authority in charge of NO. It was his judgement to preparedness that mattered most.

Bush and the federal government can't be expected to have a realistic excutable plan for every municipality in the US. The commander on the ground has to get it done.

Personally I don't think pointing fingers at anyone is helpful. Pointing fingers at Bush is far sighted to the highest degree. Who cares whose fault it was. Disasters happen. Responses to disasters take longer than anyone would like. Deal!!!!

I think we can point fingers directly at FEMA and the Bush administration for its slow response time in this situation, and in this disaster. I would imagine, that if you have an agency worth anything at all, and considering that the chances of New Orleans getting hit with a large hurricane and incurring severe damage as it and other locations around it have been, that FEMA would have a plan for this. As mentioned before, it's not like we didn't know that something this bad could happen fairly easily. They should have had a plan for THIS. I wouldn't think that they'd have a plan for every municipality within the United States, but damn man, this was well known knowledge that New Orleans and other areas around there had a very good chance for getting wiped out, or almost wiped out just like what happened.

Response time was poor, and the response was unacceptable. Even BUSH said so.

I think we can point fingers directly at FEMA and the Bush administration for its slow response time in this situation, and in this disaster. I would imagine, that if you have an agency worth anything at all, and considering that the chances of New Orleans getting hit with a large hurricane and incurring severe damage as it and other locations around it have been, that FEMA would have a plan for this. As mentioned before, it's not like we didn't know that something this bad could happen fairly easily. They should have had a plan for THIS. I wouldn't think that they'd have a plan for every municipality within the United States, but damn man, this was well known knowledge that New Orleans and other areas around there had a very good chance for getting wiped out, or almost wiped out just like what happened.

Response time was poor, and the response was unacceptable. Even BUSH said so.

...of my post from last night that you're responding to. I have a policy of not posting after more than 4 beers, and I should have followed it last night.

Anyway, I've no doubt there were plans on many levels in place for just such a situation. My hunch is that most of them relied on the the local command getting things done first. Mobilizing the entire federal government wasn't necessary to get the poor out of harms way.

On the subject of plans. Plans are wonderful things, but they have to be executed. Most times when the executing gets under way you find out that the plan you're working with isn't worth the paper it's printed on. From what I can see fromt he TV and print reports, it was a real mess in the gulf coast, and getting anything done must have been a real b@tch.

Bush's fault, mayor's fault, Pat Robertson's fault, God's fault, or my fault. Blame whomever you feel most comfortable with. It doesn't matter to me.

Your math or data is a bit off. NO has a population of 500K. It was stated that about 80% evacuated. That leaves 100k or so. I am pretty confident that, in the entire city of NO there are enough buses to trasnport that many people. Probably many more times that many people. The Superdome holds how many? I bet a good amount of the people going to games use public transport down there. I bet there are enough buses that each of the 100k could have had their own bus.

The mayor of NO and the local government should have had a better plan. This flood was hanging over that city for 100 years. They just didn't take it seriously enough. The projects should have been vacated on order from the mayor. The mayor should have made prior arrangements with other cities to accept his people.

I would really like to know what his and their plan was for this type of event. I hope there are formal inquiries into this. The govenor of LA should be held accountable too.

Would those busses have driven them selves? Most states have License requirements to be a bus driver. Most likely, the regular drivers of those busses were in part, evacuees before the storm hit & heeded the order to flee. Some (a few at least) were also too poor to afford to leave. In addition, some were among those who believed they should stay & guard/hold on to their homes. So I'll bet that the available # of legit drivers would have been rather inadequate, but the busses would have been good to use either way.

The problem still remains is where the $ would come from to pay for the gas & driver wages in that N.O. seems to (we find out) a poor city. Assuming that all of the 220 busses were in working order.

I'll bet that here in San Diego, if we were faced with an analogous situation there would be nearly identical barriers to 'proper' evacuation inspite ofwhat is supposed to have been learned from the fires ~2 years ago.
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...of my post from last night that you're responding to. I have a policy of not posting after more than 4 beers, and I should have followed it last night.

Bush's fault, mayor's fault, Pat Robertson's fault, God's fault, or my fault. Blame whomever you feel most comfortable with. It doesn't matter to me.No posting after 4 beers: agreed.

BTW tis the Bush administration that took away 90% of the fund for the New Orleans/ LA Wetland Recovery program and 50% from City of NO's water Pump station improvement fund (the pumps could only handle something like 2" of rain per day or something at the time) that was alotted from the 2002 LA/ New Orleans Catastrophic Disaster meeting (where Parties from Republicans, Democrats, State, city, scientists participated they've predicted exactly this kinda thing would happen). Bush also cut 80% of funds aloted to the Army Corps of Engeering for fortifying the levees so they can handle storms greater than catagory 3 hurricane. Unlike how Bush remarked to Diane Sawyer "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees" he was well aware of it.

Would those busses have driven them selves? Most states have License requirements to be a bus driver. Most likely, the regular drivers of those busses were in part, evacuees before the storm hit & heeded the order to flee. Some (a few at least) were also too poor to afford to leave. In addition, some were among those who believed they should stay & guard/hold on to their homes. So I'll bet that the available # of legit drivers would have been rather inadequate, but the busses would have been good to use either way.

The problem still remains is where the $ would come from to pay for the gas & driver wages in that N.O. seems to (we find out) a poor city. Assuming that all of the 220 busses were in working order.

I'll bet that here in San Diego, if we were faced with an analogous situation there would be nearly identical barriers to 'proper' evacuation inspite ofwhat is supposed to have been learned from the fires ~2 years ago.
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Look. I don't blame the Mayor anymore than I blame Bush. This is a prime example of being overcome by events that no planning could have prevented.

But are you suggesting that the reason people weren't evacuated is because of state Licensing requirements and gas money. LOL! I think it is safe to assume that these considerations were part of the cities evacuation plan. But then again maybe they don't know as much as you. After all you are a super computer.

Clearly I am not programed as well as you are. That said, what I was aiming at is that all evacuation transpotation, personal & 'public' will be paid for/incur costs. Part of those costs are the personal needed to operate & implement the Evac transpo.

It seem rather clear to me that the cities evac plan did not take into account the inability of a (large) part of the population to afford personal, private transpo. Private transpo appears to have been the only evac planned for.

Clearly I am not programed as well as you are. That said, what I was aiming at is that all evacuation transpotation, personal & 'public' will be paid for/incur costs. Part of those costs are the personal needed to operate & implement the Evac transpo.

It seem rather clear to me that the cities evac plan did not take into account the inability of a (large) part of the population to afford personal, private transpo. Private transpo appears to have been the only evac planned for.

Buried within one of the other threads is some talk about the cities plan. It even includes some cut and pastes from the document (assuming the post are legit). It clearly talks about using city buses and vehicles to evacuate people who could not get out on their own. The city did use some of the transit service buses to transport people to the super dome. While the plan was not posted in it's entirety it is reasonable to assume that fuel and drivers are addressed in there. Now getting the drivers to show up is a different story.

Again, I want to stress that I would not want to put the blame on the Mayor and I certainly would not have wanted to be in his position. Clearly he made some mistakes (as I assume GW and FIMA did as well) but that is the way things work in the real world. Does it suck for the people who suffer because of them? Yes, put they made a bad choice when they stayed. For whatever reason.

It is a very sad situation but probably not preventable.

Only the human suffreing (scale wise) was preventable. Choices by individuals.

Short of the massive Dutch dikes holding the north sea back, New Orleans was going to be swamped, sooner or later.

Aid response time, even basic recognition of the expanding problem was arguably slow. The size of the area of inundation notwithstanding, this is the USA. Supposedly the most powerfull, advanced country on the planet.

this is the USA. Supposedly the most powerfull, advanced country on the planet.

IMO your statement above represents one of the greatest human failings. The USA is the most powerfull, advanced country on the planet. That does not mean that we are capable of over coming all things.

Many people have in one way or another compared this to a terrorist attack and more specifically a nuclear attack.

I'm in no position to quote the figures but at some point you will be able to find a figure that compares the force of this storm after it made to landfall to a WW#2 Nuclear bomb. The comparison will not even be close. The force of this storm is many magnitudes great than the force of one of those bombs. Lets guess very, very low and say 10. With a couple of days notice do you think we as a country are prepared to respond to 10 atomic weapons exploding at the same time but spread out across two states?

Not a chance. This pre event evacuation and relief effort would look stellar in comparison yet the force and destruction are much greater.

IMO your statement above represents one of the greatest human failings. The USA is the most powerfull, advanced country on the planet. That does not mean that we are capable of over coming all things.
....
The thing about hurricanes, these days is that 'we' see them comming. kinda falls into that warning area and prepare your self mindset, one would think.

So, getting out of the way, when you see something comming at you sorta seems prudent and reasonable. But then I may not have the most complete programing so I may be missing something here.

In any event, it seemed to be no secret that -some- folks would be left behind for various reasons and preperations taken to...look after them when the fog clears.

Well that some # was reasonably known (well) before zero hour and yet the key wasn't even in the ignition much less was the engine warmed up.

Bliss is a wonderfull state to live in 'till the willfull ignorance bill come due.

I think there was a lot of the latter all around.

But are you suggesting that the reason people weren't evacuated is because of state Licensing requirements and gas money. LOL! .

yeah, that's almost as hilarious as the bush administration saying how they couldn't do anything cause the local officials failed to dot every i or cross every t of the required paperwork authorizing them to do so.

The thing about hurricanes, these days is that 'we' see them comming. kinda falls into that warning area and prepare your self mindset, one would think.

So, getting out of the way, when you see something comming at you sorta seems prudent and reasonable. But then I may not have the most complete programing so I may be missing something here.

In any event, it seemed to be no secret that -some- folks would be left behind for various reasons and preperations taken to...look after them when the fog clears.

Well that some # was reasonably known (well) before zero hour and yet the key wasn't even in the ignition much less was the engine warmed up.

Bliss is a wonderfull state to live in 'till the willfull ignorance bill come due.

I think there was a lot of the latter all around.

...(here comes the but), but from what I've heard NO has been the bullseye so many times and then the storm turns east that most folks in the area were suffereing from evacuation fatigue. The other point that should not go unsaid is that this storm was unprecedented in intensity/size.

I watched the storm coverage Sat and Sun and was thinking, "wow this is gonna be really bad." I woke up Mon morning and it seemed like another false alarm and an overblown by the media event. Tues morning changed all that as I began to realize as we all did that the worst was coming true.

yeah, that's almost as hilarious as the bush administration saying how they couldn't do anything cause the local officials failed to dot every i or cross every t of the required paperwork authorizing them to do so.

Source?

haven't been paying attention, have you?

although it's clear that GWB didn't cause the hurricane, some environmentalists might find a way to argue that point. One can't ignore the fact that two of the worst disasters have struck this country while GWB held the presidency.

FEMA, and the city, had ample time to plan and prepare for an evacuation of the poor. Although, I might suspect that most of the people resisted the idea of evacuation and took the "I'll ride it out" stance. Unfortunately for them, this was the worst possible scenario of a natural disaster. A Cat 4/5 hurricane, levees breaking, 20 ft below sea level...etc. Why are we so surprised?

It's also clear that GWB dramatically reduced the funding for Army Corp of Engineers for the last few years. Congress is also culpable here, but who was the president?

When the prosecutors decided to hold Enron responsible for their misdeeds, did he prosecute the traders and the janitors? No, he prosecuted the PRESIDENT.

It's also clear that a LOT of life was lost due to the lack of timely response. That clearly leaves FEMA holding the bag. Who appoints the man in charge of FEMA?

This is not GWB bashing, it's holding the man accountable and responsible for his many failures as president.

haven't been paying attention, have you?

Not to the BS.

although it's clear that GWB didn't cause the hurricane, some environmentalists might find a way to argue that point. One can't ignore the fact that two of the worst disasters have struck this country while GWB held the presidency.

FEMA, and the city, had ample time to plan and prepare for an evacuation of the poor. Although, I might suspect that most of the people resisted the idea of evacuation and took the "I'll ride it out" stance. Unfortunately for them, this was the worst possible scenario of a natural disaster. A Cat 4/5 hurricane, levees breaking, 20 ft below sea level...etc. Why are we so surprised?

It's also clear that GWB dramatically reduced the funding for Army Corp of Engineers for the last few years. Congress is also culpable here, but who was the president?

When the prosecutors decided to hold Enron responsible for their misdeeds, did he prosecute the traders and the janitors? No, he prosecuted the PRESIDENT.

It's also clear that a LOT of life was lost due to the lack of timely response. That clearly leaves FEMA holding the bag. Who appoints the man in charge of FEMA?

This is not GWB bashing, it's holding the man accountable and responsible for his many failures as president.

However the answer will become more clear with time. Might hurt him or it might help him.

We shall see

yeah, that's almost as hilarious as the bush administration saying how they couldn't do anything cause the local officials failed to dot every i or cross every t of the required paperwork authorizing them to do so.

sorry I don't have a ready link for you, but it is true that the governor of a state must formally request help from the federal government and paperwork is involved. The federal government has to go through a lot of hoops if it wants to just pull in to town and start operations without the state requesting it.

Not taking sides, just sharing what I know.

Deek

sorry I don't have a ready link for you, but it is true that the governor of a state must formally request help from the federal government and paperwork is involved. The federal government has to go through a lot of hoops if it wants to just pull in to town and start operations without the state requesting it.

Not taking sides, just sharing what I know.

Deek

yeah, and the administration's own National Response Plan, implemented just last December, allows the federal government to take pro-active measures to respond to catastrophic events, without having to wait for local and state requests or formal channels to be followed. you can see the entire plan here:

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf

The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions. A catastrophic event could result in sustained national impacts over a prolonged period of time; almost immediately exceeds resources normally available to State, local, tribal, and private-sector authorities in the impacted area; and significantly interrupts governmental operations and emergency services to such an extent that national security could be threatened. All catastrophic events are Incidents of National Significance.

but since the federal government didn't bother to classify this as an "incident of National Significance" until wednesday, you can see why federal response was so late. they just dropped the ball completely.

Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response
Guiding principles for proactive Federal response include the following:
¦ The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national security.
¦ Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
¦ Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
¦ Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
¦ State and local governments are encouraged to conduct collaborative planning with the Federal Government as a part of "steady-state" preparedness for catastrophic incidents.

all this talk about how the local governments didn't formally request the national guard, or FEMA relief, or anything else from the feds, is just the bush administration shifting the blame and smearing the locals to take the heat off themselves for their complete indifference to this catastreophe. they didn't even follow their own response plan that they drew up in response to 9/11. this is criminal behavior on their part, just obscene for them to be more concerned about covering their asses in the aftermath, than it was to get a relief response in motion.

and anyone who buys into their smears, who comes on here regurgitationg their talking points about how it was all the locals fault, is just as criminal and obscene. sure, the locals made mistakes, they were right there int he thick of things, trying to deal with it as everything was collapsing all around them. meanwhile, bush, cheney, condi, chief of staff andy card, and a bunch of others were on vacation.for two days after the hurricane hit, they were still on vacation, while people were dying in NO. two days after the hurricane hit, bush went back to washington to, in his own words, beginmeetings of his hurricane disaster task force. federal aid didn't start rolling in to the area until friday, four days after the hurricane struck.

how many lives would have been saved if they'd even had a partial response by tuesday?

If Bush is going to take all the glory for "his" response to 9/11, he gets to take all the heat for "his" lack of response for Katrina.

Those are the rules of the game.

You obviously have severe emotional problems. Seek help soon!

If Bush is going to take all the glory for "his" response to 9/11, he gets to take all the heat for "his" lack of response for Katrina.

Those are the rules of the game.

Of course there is going to be finger pointing from both sides.

I heard that they (whomever "they" are) are looking at compiling a 9/11 type commission to see what's what, and who's who in this disaster and to see what the responsibilities were, and why the response times were so slow...

Here are a few things that I've pulled from this, just my own opinions:

• Bush was at the old ranch when we all knew the storm was coming, and the outcome was going to be bad when it hit land. It was a cat. 5 fer cryin' out loud. I don't know about you guys, but when my country is facing an almost immediate crisis and disaster, I kind of want my President off vacation and back in DC making plans, turning screws, and seeing that things are getting done. I'm not saying that he couldn't completely do this from Texas, but once again, DC is the seat of power, he needed to be there, and he wasn't.

• A lot of people in NO and other areas have ridden out storms before, and they chose to do so this time, not knowing how bad it was going to be. Also, a lot of these folks had no other way to do this. They didn't have a choice to evacuate, because they had no way out of the city. Unfortunately, this was the lower socio economic sector of these areas that were most affected.

• Major aid didn't start flowing into the area until what? Thursday at the earliest? That's way too late when the storm came through on Monday. Way too late, and there was no need of it. Who was at fault for that? I think FEMA and the Bush administration. They're running the show, as they like to tell us so many times, and now they should be held accountable for it. Why is it when they do "good" things, they want to step forward and take full credit for such actions. But when they do "bad" things, or don't do so well, the first thing they do is start sending out discrediting stories about the people who are criticizing them, instead of fixing the problems. This happens time and again with this administration, and it's sickening.

What is sickening is the partisan response to this tragedy. If it were a libby president in office, the reports from the media would have been "Rescuers are having immense difficulty getting to the survivors of this disaster because of the magnitude of the storm and the size of the area effected, which is thousands of square miles larger than the state of Ohio!"

Not one media outlet would have questioned the response because it was reasonable to see that this was something we (the US) had not encountered, ever, and the shear size of the area effected. It also would have been noted that the storm passed NO and the low laying Gulf areas, leaving them relatively undamaged in many respects. It wasn't until a day later that the floods occured and the real disaster happened. It also would have been noted that the Mayor of NO sent tens of thousands of residents to the Superdome not knowing what was to come. He sent them there without provisions. This would have been pointed out by the libby media in order to protect the libby president. That is the way the story would have been reported had a libby been in office.

I am waiting to hear what Bill Clinton has to say. Yesterday he made an off-hand remark that he would have a lot to say about the levees in the near future. I hope that anything he has to say would be constructive and not devisive. My fear is that any hearing on the Katrina response would turn into a "who did the worst job" as opposed to root causes and short and long term corrective actions. I sound like a nuclear engineer because I am one. As the leader of the country, every president for the last 30 years has some responsibility for this. I know, 18 of those years had a Bush in the White House. What needs to come of this is that NO cannot be rebuilt like before. The waterways, seawall, and dikes have contributed to the destruction of marshlands and have caused a sediment buildup complete with fertilizer runoff that has created a dead zone in part of the Gulf. Something will have to change.

...states the "Mayor" as the Cheif Elected Offical, has the authority and repsonsiblity to use the public transportation system, which includes over 2000 school buses, to evacuate people who cannot transport themselves.

The black democrat mayor of NO did not get it done. He didn't use the resources he was authorized to use to evacuate the poor to safety. Incidently, the mayor was able to use those buses to evacuate the poor to polling places on election day.

FEMA is not a first repsonder unit. The mayor is. Unless the bed-wetters are apologizing to Bush for their knee jerk reponse, I really don't see any reason for them to keep flapping their gums.

The black democrat mayor of NO did not get it done. He didn't use the resources he was authorized to use to evacuate the poor to safety. Incidently, the mayor was able to use those buses to evacuate the poor to polling places on election day.

FEMA is not a first repsonder unit. The mayor is. Unless the bed-wetters are apologizing to Bush for their knee jerk reponse, I really don't see any reason for them to keep flapping their gums.

What does the color of the mayor of NO have anything to do with what happened or what you just said?

Wow, I can't believe you are a racist.

What is sickening is the partisan response to this tragedy. If it were a libby president in office, the reports from the media would have been "Rescuers are having immense difficulty getting to the survivors of this disaster because of the magnitude of the storm and the size of the area effected, which is thousands of square miles larger than the state of Ohio!"

Not one media outlet would have questioned the response because it was reasonable to see that this was something we (the US) had not encountered, ever, and the shear size of the area effected. It also would have been noted that the storm passed NO and the low laying Gulf areas, leaving them relatively undamaged in many respects. It wasn't until a day later that the floods occured and the real disaster happened. It also would have been noted that the Mayor of NO sent tens of thousands of residents to the Superdome not knowing what was to come. He sent them there without provisions. This would have been pointed out by the libby media in order to protect the libby president. That is the way the story would have been reported had a libby been in office.

Steam you are a putz. This is not a partisan issue, only what you hear is.

Any administration would be ripped apart due to this utter failure of systems that are supposed to handle such situations. Now, the bigger question is when the next terrorist strike occurs here, are we to expect the same pitiful response?

The sad fact is, this is a republican administration that is an utter failure. Now, that is a partisan statement.

LOL!!! Pretty much everyone and their sister on the left have been trying to make this a racial issue. Now someone speaks up and points out that the person most responsible for the loss of life also happens to be an African American and he gets labeled a racist. Priceless!

Now, now. You know you lose the argument when you start name calling :)

Please explain this line. It is quite perplexing:
This is not a partisan issue, only what you hear is. Is this a partisan response?
...are we to expect the same pitiful response? How come no one is asking the dopey mayor why he sent tens of thousands of people to the SD without food and water? How about why there was no emergency back-up power? How about why he didn't have a real plan, even though when he took the oath of office, he swore to protect the people of NO? I mean everyone knew that NO was a disaster waiting to happen. Why didn't the mayor, the local govenment agencies and even the govenor of the state have a plan for what was considered inevitable? GOt any answers to the very simple questions? I hope the Mayor of NO and the govenore of LA do.

LOL!!! Pretty much everyone and their sister on the left have been trying to make this a racial issue. Now someone speaks up and points out that the person most responsible for the loss of life also happens to be an African American and he gets labeled a racist. Priceless!

Unlike what Kanye West believes, this is NOT a racist issue. It is a socio-economic issue and the poor don't have a voice in our society. Unfortunately, the majority of the poor in the region happen to be black. Why the mayor didn't have his buses going out to the poor sections and offering to help evacuate these poor people 3 days in advance is beyond me. To point out that the mayor is black is a racist comment because it has nothing to do with what happened.

Just like the statement of why didn't white director of FEMA plan for this and respond accordingly? Is it because he doesn't like blacks? Those are racist statements.

Steam, you are still a putz!

Now, now. You know you lose the argument when you start name calling :)

Please explain this line. It is quite perplexing:
Is this a partisan response?
How come no one is asking the dopey mayor why he sent tens of thousands of people to the SD without food and water? How about why there was no emergency back-up power? How about why he didn't have a real plan, even though when he took the oath of office, he swore to protect the people of NO? I mean everyone knew that NO was a disaster waiting to happen. Why didn't the mayor, the local govenment agencies and even the govenor of the state have a plan for what was considered inevitable? GOt any answers to the very simple questions? I hope the Mayor of NO and the govenore of LA do.

Nope, but if I were to say he was black in any response, now that would be racist.

first people need transportation, second people need a place to go. where ya going to put all these folks? (roughly 100K) without a federal plan what drive them 200 miles North and park the buses? most folks who stayed were the bottom of the economic ladder, no transportion, nowhere to go (whole Po' family history in NO and it's parrishes). there are already stories of folks on the roof getting rescued by helicopters asking "How much will this cost? I don't have any money?" Evacuating this segment with bus drivers and cops AWOL needed to go beyond local/ state management. the lack of national Guardsmen available cut the states ability to help itself.

look I don't blame Bush for Katrina, I do blame him for hiring 2 inexperienced policy wonks to run FEMA and Homeland Security. both these boobs were either unaware or lying about the # of people at the dome and civic center, one referred to Louisiana as a 'city'.
Both looked like deer in the headlights when they were faced with a real emergency. They fall right into the great class of 'goat bookers' following W's fine example. It took a military man to get the job done and thank goodness fro him. I say make him head of H.S. Look this is 4 years after 9-11 and we've spent huge sums of money 'improving' homeland secuirty. Huge sums of this coin are unaccounted for, others went to 'feel good' parties, protection for low threat level states etc... Other Fed funds went to building 'glory bridges in Alaska', money was cut for the frickin tax breaks, this is a 'failure' of a homeland security and especially given the time and $ that has supposedly been invested.

sorry folks, history won't look kindly on this. when they start finding all the dead and figure out how many died waiting for help the verdict will be clearly too, little too late. If you are satisfied with this response after all we've supposedly done to shore up for national crisis you have extremely low expectations.

Why then don't you call out the real racists like Jesse Jackson, Sharpton and the others who are trying to make this a racial issue?

Why was a federal plan necessary? Why didn't the local government, or even the state government have a plan for the inevitable? Why did the mayor send tens of thousands of people to a building without food or water? How about a plan on getting them out of there once it was obvious the floods were going to shut down the city - you know the flood that NO and the whole state of LA has talked about for the last 100 years. This is a local and state issue and they failed miserably. The feds get called in to bail the local and state out. The feds, basically due to a little thing called the Constitution, are not responsible for the citizens of any one particular state. The feds can be called upon by a state, for assistance. However the first line of defense and planning remains with the local and state govenment and agencies. They obviously did not have a plan, and that is criminal.

You didn't answer the questions. You lose :D

Why then don't you call out the real racists like Jesse Jackson, Sharpton and the others who are trying to make this a racial issue?

I haven't heard either say word one, but it doesn't surprise me. Jackson and Sharpton would call 'painting a house' an act of racism if it furthered their cause. The fact that these two might portray it as racist only confounds and confuses the real issue. Like I said, it is a socio-economic issue. Because most of the poor in the region just happen to be black overlaps what Jackson and Sharpton view as racism.

BTW, you're still a putz and jbrumm is a racist.

we have a federal dept of homeland security. this 'assault' crossed state boundries and needed man and machine power beyond a city or state's ability. Look I'm not excusing the Mayor of NO as he is to share in the blame, but once again where are you going to send 250,000 K plus folks without Federal help? park the buses along the interstate and then have to helicopter in food there? how with a police force of a thousand or 2 are ya gonna round up that many folks? this went beyond local ability, and falls under FEMA and now Homeland Security's jurisdiction. it is no different than a terrorist attack, say how about if Al Q had blown those Levees? Would you think leaving folks stranded for a week as a success? More could have been done on lower levels but ALOT more could have been done on a national level ESPECIALLY given the huge budget for Homeland Security. Heck if I was Al Q I'd be licking my chops right now, we're an easy target for chaos. Personally with things strecthed so thin and performing so crappy I'm expecting an attack of some sort somewhere while this is going on.

there is NO WAY the response would have been this bad in a higher income area. say Kennebunkport.

Well I will stay above the name calling you slipped into. It is not, or at least shouldn't be a socio-economic issue. It may be a cultural issue in some aspects, as many of the people who stayed have a long history of doing the same through other storms.

The real problem was the local and state govenrment failed it citizens. They not only failed to have a real disater plan in place, they failed to spend the money they have, which happens to be quite a nice budget, properly. You and others can crow all you like about Bush and others pulling the plug on levee repairs, but the state of LA did the same. They have a very big budget that they have not managed to put into infrastructure projects. Read about it here:

http://results.gpponline.org/StateOverview.aspx?id=110&relatedid=1

We could probably blame Mother Nature, and or God, but I don't think we lay this one at the feet of George W. Bush.

That being said, what we can blame him for is the lack of response that the deep South go in the first hours after the hurricane came through, and the lack of response that came up until the other day, and today, lack of response for some folks continues down there. So I think we can blame the Bush administration for some things like this, but not so much for the flooding.

You are right, magnolia. We must assign blame where appropriate.

The real problem was the local and state govenrment failed it citizens.


I heard Rush and another talking head saying the same thing. nice that the RTPgets parroted so quickly

Man you must be riddled with guilt. You also like to misstate numbers. There were probably 80 - 100k people remaining in NO. Not 250k. The city and state were and are responsible for it's citizens. That is not debatable. They failed their citizens. They had no real plan. The feds can only come in and pick up the pieces. That's pretty much the way it works. I could hear all the hollerin' and screamin' should the feds decide they know what's best for all of us!

You knows what's even funnier? I haven't heard one lick of what they have had to say. I guess great minds do think alike. Maybe I should have my own show too! LOL!!!

I know the talking points from the right are to blame the mayor but why don't you just start with the truth. Bush's reaction to the hurricane was completely consistent with his personal views on the role of government. Bush, and many on the right believe that it is not the governments place to help the citizens. I constantly hear that you can't count on government to help you with your problems. Bush does not believe in social programs such as welfare, social security, public education and so on. He didn't react to the flooding because it did not occur to him to react, it's not part of what he believes in.

In fact it seems that he has acted with a purpose. Because he does not believe that government is there to help the citizens and he would rather do away with sociel programs he has taken steps to further his views. His policies have been aimed at dismantlely these social programs by "fixing them". He states there is a problem with education, so he fixes it with no child left behind, there is a problem with social security so he fixes it by trying to privatize it. He knows that none of these "fixes" will do any good and will in fact cause the demise of the program, exactly the way he wants. So he took FEMA, a program that spent tax payer money to help people, especially poor people, and turned it from a cabinet level position to a small part of homeland security, and thereby effectively dismantled it. It's all part of the plan. Get rid of the programs you don't like, not with a frontal assualt but by reorganizing to "fix it" and therefore screw it up so bad that it fails completely. Sure he sent John Bolton to the U.N. to reform it. Nope he sent him there to "fix it".

So what did Bush get from his little delay? People now believe that they can't count on the government for help. The private sector has had to step up and find the solutions and try and pay for the costs of the displaced and the clean up. Citizens needs are shifted from the government to the private sector. It worked exactly as it was supposed to.

Find the Superdome, then go northeast on the freeway about 3 miles to the edge of page, see all the yellow, those are 200+ buses sitting in the water. The mayor of NO should be in jail.

The key here is that the buses are sitting IN water. It's a stretch to say the mayor should be jailed when we don't know if these buses could have made it the 3 miles to the Superdome. Keep in mind that the water at this time was 20 feet deep in the city. Can't drive a bus through that.

Gee do you think they could have driven them prior to the storm passing? I guess that would have been too obvious.

Please explain why the mayor sent tens of thousands of people to a place where they had no supply of food and water. Ten we could move the discussion forward :)

FEMA is 'designed' to help the poor? That's news to me. I ddn't know they could tell your net worth while you were drowning.

I have to laugh at you libs. The school system, SS, welfare and pretty much everything else you mentioned have been broken for decades, and now you want to blame Bush for them too. That's rich.

Man you must be riddled with guilt. You also like to misstate numbers. There were probably 80 - 100k people remaining in NO. Not 250k. The city and state were and are responsible for it's citizens. That is not debatable. They failed their citizens. They had no real plan. The feds can only come in and pick up the pieces. That's pretty much the way it works. I could hear all the hollerin' and screamin' should the feds decide they know what's best for all of us!

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

but there are 250,000 K refugees in Texas alone right now. regardless, so where do you bus 100,000 K people? and where do you get the drivers? if you get 60 a busload that's 1667 buses and drivers. you wouldn't be able to do multiple runs unless you just dropped them on the side of the highway.
state's responsibility? uh we had this little Cedar Fire a few years back and FEMA showed up. kinda like they do when the Mississippi goes crazily over its banks, or we have a little shaker. See that is considered a FEDERAL EMERGENCY (ya knw the first 2 letters in FEMA), because the EMERGENCY goes beyond the scope of local and state abilities to deal with it.

why would I feel guilty, it's not like there are a few thousand deaths hanging on my head.
but if I really wanted to debate with Rush or any of the RTP Heads I'd call them directly (though I'd be screened out) when you come up with a thought on your own lemme know.
I already heard all this on the radio this AM.

but there are 250,000 K refugees in Texas alone right now. regardless, so where do you bus 100,000 K people? and where do you get the drivers? if you get 60 a busload that's 1667 buses and drivers. you wouldn't be able to do multiple runs unless you just dropped them on the side of the highway.
state's responsibility? uh we had this little Cedar Fire a few years back and FEMA showed up. kinda like they do when the Mississippi goes crazily over its banks, or we have a little shaker. See that is considered a FEDERAL EMERGENCY (ya knw the first 2 letters in FEMA), because the EMERGENCY goes beyond the scope of local and state abilities to deal with it.

why would I feel guilty, it's not like there are a few thousand deaths hanging on my head.
but if I really wanted to debate with Rush or any of the RTP Heads I'd call them directly (though I'd be screened out) when you come up with a thought on your own lemme know.
I already heard all this on the radio this AM.

The failure of the local and state governments to adequately plan for such an emergency is at the heart of this problem. While there may have been too many people to get them all out, it would have been a much better situation had they gotten half of them out before the storm. The systems they had would not have been so strained. I also cannot understand why the first responders, police, firemen and medical staff were not in locations under some organization to take control when the storm passed. That isn't the responsibility of the Guard or the Military, they are supposed to respond to requests from local and state government. It was the failure to evacuate those that could be and to have a plan and organization in place for contingencys that caused so many deaths and such suffering. You can't expect large numbers of rescuers from outside to respond a lot faster than they did. Emotion seems to cloud judgement in these discussions.

The city and state were and are responsible for it's citizens. That is not debatable. They failed their citizens. They had no real plan. The feds can only come in and pick up the pieces. That's pretty much the way it works. I could hear all the hollerin' and screamin' should the feds decide they know what's best for all of us!

In all fairness Steamy, I think we should add that the Federal Govt. should be reponsible for it's citizens too.

The Governor asked for federal aid Sunday night, before Katrina hit. It should've been enough time to get some help in there in the next day or two, considering we were all watching this thing - a Cat. 5 hurricane - crawling across the Gulf all weekend.

as it was creeping it's way to NO and every weatherman was predicting its landfall our fearless leader was out on P-R spin patrol. thought photo ops and making speeches to planted audiences were more important than creating a war-room to deal with the impending storm.

Gee how well did it work? Let us know. I found that little document too when I was looking for the size of the NOPD. I would imagine this little document will be scrutinized once the waters clear a bit. I think a probe is in order to see who and what failed the people. I guess it will be difficult to see if any of the measures were followed, but I am sure there will be some people ready to come forward to tell what they know.

OH atp, I have not heard any of this on the TV or radio. If that is what they are saying, then we agree and I must be psychic. Like I said, maybe I sould have my own show. However, most of what I am looking for is common sense.

Why would the mayor send many thousands of people to a building with no supply of food or water. How about emergency backup generators? One would think that structure of that type would have a system that was sheltered from a severe storm. One would also hope that his idea to send them there was part of a larger scale plan of some sort, but the idea that there was no support in the way of what I mentioned prior, probably doesn't help that thought. More than likely, he sent them there without a plan. More than likely, he fumbled his way through this. I guess 9/11 tought him nothing about preparedness. Oh, where was the govenor of LA on this. Did she have a plan? Did she send out the NG in a timely fashion? Why didn't she send the NG to help evacuate the city before the storm hit? LOts of questions must be answered.

FEMA is 'designed' to help the poor? That's news to me. I ddn't know they could tell your net worth while you were drowning.

I have to laugh at you libs. The school system, SS, welfare and pretty much everything else you mentioned have been broken for decades, and now you want to blame Bush for them too. That's rich.

The well to do people usually get out with enough money to buy their own supplies, pay for their own hotels and have enough insurance to cover their losses. It's the poor that benefit the most from federal help such as FEMA.

Why don't you just admit the truth of your position? You can't stand it that some poor person would get something from the government, from your tax dollars. You keep stating that it's the local governments fault that these people suffered. In other words the Federal govenrment owed these people nothing. Admit that this whole mess actually furthers the agenda of the hard core right. Don't help people in this crisis and force home the point that they can't count on the government for assistence, so they won't count on it in the future. Of course that only applies to the poor. I see that Haliburton has already been awarded the contract for the clean up.

Also, broken is in t he eye of the beholder. It's clear that Bush wants to get rid of social programs, and he is proceeding in the way that he has excelled with all through his life, by completely f@cking them up.

No posting after 4 beers: agreed.

BTW tis the Bush administration that took away 90% of the fund for the New Orleans/ LA Wetland Recovery program and 50% from City of NO's water Pump station improvement fund (the pumps could only handle something like 2" of rain per day or something at the time) that was alotted from the 2002 LA/ New Orleans Catastrophic Disaster meeting (where Parties from Republicans, Democrats, State, city, scientists participated they've predicted exactly this kinda thing would happen). Bush also cut 80% of funds aloted to the Army Corps of Engeering for fortifying the levees so they can handle storms greater than catagory 3 hurricane. Unlike how Bush remarked to Diane Sawyer "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees" he was well aware of it.


This is the correct answer, and why I hold the Bush Admin largely to blame for this disgrace. Homeland Security Dept has been waaaaayyy too focused on terrorism, and not at all on other things that could disrupt the country.

But isn't this Bush's way? Ignore warnings, then show up after the fact with empty words? At least if this happened in NYC, Bush might have been there earlier, but his words would have been just as empty.

It's time to impeach this bastige.

My tax dollars will go to help these people, rich or poor. So your argument is faulty from the start. The idea that the local government, that closest to the people it serves, should bear a good portion of the responsibility for these types of situations, is not a new one. If I am correct, and I will have to do some research on it, all metropolitan cities had to have provided an emergency plan to FEMA or HLS for situtions such as this. I know here in NYC we plan for these events and take responsibility for helping and organizing rescue operations. The mayor has a war room (bunker) and can operate from it for days without support from the outside.

NO has lived under the threat of this type of disaster for decades upon decades. They have allowed development and had control of how things were structurally built, what safety measures they must include and how they impacted community regarding recovery and rescue issues. I know it doesn't bring the dead back to life, but the responsibility of the loss of life must belong to the city of NO and the state of LA. The federal government had no control of how this city and state conducted business. How they allowed it to develop, except in the case of federally protected areas. And, how they planned for the inevitable, which is what this event actually was.

The rest of your rant is way off. Your problem is that you see that the social programs that Bush is addressing are broken. However you have no answers as to how to fix them. Actually your party never even cared to address them. At least Bush has had the balls to get people talking about them. SS was something that just about every politician would touch wioth a ten foot pole because he wanted to get re-elected. However, that didn't mean it wasn't broke in more ways than one. Same with the Dept. of Ed. So don't give me that sanctimonious crap about how the rich want life off the backs of the poor or what ever it was you were trying to say. As I said, politicizing this is about as low as a person can go.

Um, what was the mayor of NO doing? How about the govenor? The President does not micro-manage. He delegates responsibility. I think we will find that FEMA had pretty much all the supplies and personnel in place prior to the storm making landfall. However I don't believe we will find that the local government, those who are responsible for logistics and an understanding of the area, well prepared for what was to happen. Oh here's a quote for those who believe Bush was uninterested in this disaster:
On August 29, 2005, during an interview, Louisiana's Democrat Governor Kathleen Blanco, who owed her election to her support in New Orleans, gratefully acknowledged that President Bush had declared a state of emergency BEFORE Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana, explaining: "[I]t allowed FEMA to come in here early. We've set the stage for a lot of help for evacuation help, and the federal government is standing by. The president called. He was very supportive of our efforts. He was encouraging evacuation. He was very concerned. We appreciate his concern."

and it's decline has been from the cutting of funds by 'privatize it' driven Republican leaders
since the 70's. they've been slowly dismantling it with their eyes on privatization since I ws in jr High School.

Gee, ever look at the budget growth for the Dept. of Ed? I don't believe it supports your claim. Nice try. Just say something that sounds good and maybe no one will question it. Typical libby.

Gee, ever look at the budget growth for the Dept. of Ed? I don't believe it supports your claim. Nice try. Just say something that sounds good and maybe no one will question it. Typical libby.


Yes Steam we all know that everyone else is to blame but Bush. It's the poor peoples fault, the mayors fault, the governors fault, Clintons fault, the democrats fault, whatever. Your guy is a saint and not some pinheaded piece of crap who could not give a rats a$$ about anyone but himself and his buddies. Sure no problem letting people starve, no problem letting them go without water, the jerk could not be bothered to pick up the phone and call that moron he put in charge of FEMA and tell him to open up the Federal emergency plane for New Orleans and get the helicoptors up and drop some supplies. Nope he said be patient to the dying. He sure is one hell of a leader, that Georgie is. All this spin from the right on how it is everyone elses fault and they were perfect is pure garbage.

Yes Steam we all know that everyone else is to blame but Bush. It's the poor peoples fault, the mayors fault, the governors fault, Clintons fault, the democrats fault, whatever. Your guy is a saint and not some pinheaded piece of crap who could not give a rats a$$ about anyone but himself and his buddies. Sure no problem letting people starve, no problem letting them go without water, the jerk could not be bothered to pick up the phone and call that moron he put in charge of FEMA and tell him to open up the Federal emergency plane for New Orleans and get the helicoptors up and drop some supplies. Nope he said be patient to the dying. He sure is one hell of a leader, that Georgie is. All this spin from the right on how it is everyone elses fault and they were perfect is pure garbage.
be aware that you are arguing with a man who quotes himself in his forum signature.

first people need transportation, second people need a place to go. where ya going to put all these folks? (roughly 100K) without a federal plan what drive them 200 miles North and park the buses? most folks who stayed were the bottom of the economic ladder, no transportion, nowhere to go (whole Po' family history in NO and it's parrishes). there are already stories of folks on the roof getting rescued by helicopters asking "How much will this cost? I don't have any money?" Evacuating this segment with bus drivers and cops AWOL needed to go beyond local/ state management. the lack of national Guardsmen available cut the states ability to help itself.

look I don't blame Bush for Katrina, I do blame him for hiring 2 inexperienced policy wonks to run FEMA and Homeland Security. both these boobs were either unaware or lying about the # of people at the dome and civic center, one referred to Louisiana as a 'city'.
Both looked like deer in the headlights when they were faced with a real emergency. They fall right into the great class of 'goat bookers' following W's fine example. It took a military man to get the job done and thank goodness fro him. I say make him head of H.S. Look this is 4 years after 9-11 and we've spent huge sums of money 'improving' homeland secuirty. Huge sums of this coin are unaccounted for, others went to 'feel good' parties, protection for low threat level states etc... Other Fed funds went to building 'glory bridges in Alaska', money was cut for the frickin tax breaks, this is a 'failure' of a homeland security and especially given the time and $ that has supposedly been invested.

sorry folks, history won't look kindly on this. when they start finding all the dead and figure out how many died waiting for help the verdict will be clearly too, little too late. If you are satisfied with this response after all we've supposedly done to shore up for national crisis you have extremely low expectations.

Did you know that FEMA director Mike Brown's last job prior to joining FEMA was a director or management of a show horse association. He got fired from that job in 2002 for bungling up its financial & legal matters... Then he got hired at FEMA and later when the former director resigned under pressure he was appointed as director all based on the recommendation of, I forget who but, one of the Bush appointed head of something or other. Brown does not have any experience of disaster management of any kind other than from his employment at FEMA since 2002.

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857&format=&page=1

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/

Gee, ever look at the budget growth for the Dept. of Ed? I don't believe it supports your claim. Nice try. Just say something that sounds good and maybe no one will question it. Typical libby. Nice try Steam; the DoEd budget pays for (typically a lot) less than (IIRC) 10% of most districts' budgets.

whereas the DOD gets all the money it wants to make beter nu-KU-lar bunker-buster bombs

anyway it's just a 'gravy' issue though isn't it?



Why was a federal plan necessary? Why didn't the local government, or even the state government have a plan for the inevitable?

-remember all those demands for more states;' budgeting to pay for 'ant-terrorism ' services??? how about all the money for all those accountability tests??? (OTTOMH)

-remember how most states right now are severely in the red ink?....oh yea....that doesn't matter for cut-taxes &spend (money you don't have) conservatives :rolleyes:

Yes states are responsible for education their own children. The DoE is there to provide uniform expectations. If the DoD gets what they need to protect us, they are doing their part according to what the Constitution says the primary role of the Fed is. If you want to change that, change the Constitution.

Please explain why the federal government is responsible for how NO and LA allow development in an area that is/was prone to severe flooding. If these two bodies of government allowed development of the delta, then they should have had a contingency for a disaster such as Katrina.

cuts have come at local, and state levels by Cons nationwide. Started here in CA with Prop 13, it's fallout, we went from #1 in the nation to basement dwellers. pattern has been repeated throughout the nation, then we had the lottery which was supposed to supplement the tax base for Ed but what they did was replaced the tax base so net gain was about zero. then Ahnold says he's big on education and then cuts programs, doesn't fund and then blames the teachers who are paying out of their own tight pockets for their students supplies. Then we have NCLB completely unfunded thats only true success story is as a recruiting tool.

Please explain why the federal government is responsible for how NO and LA allow development in an area that is/was prone to severe flooding. If these two bodies of government allowed development of the delta, then they should have had a contingency for a disaster such as Katrina.

The Federal Govt. was responsible for the budget of the Army Corps. of Engineers. It was their job it was to take care of the $750 million refurbishment of the levees around New Orleans. Don't put this on local government only, Steam. There's plenty of blame to laddle around for all involved.

The Federal Govt. was responsible for the budget of the Army Corps. of Engineers. It was their job it was to take care of the $750 million refurbishment of the levees around New Orleans. Don't put this on local government only, Steam. There's plenty of blame to laddle around for all involved.

...the same "boondoggle" that the NYT claimed in it pages of all that's fit to print a mere 5 months ago?

Government in the US can only work as planned if the local governments do there part. That is just a fact. Here's another fact. Don't count on the government when the chips are down. YOU are the first responder in the event of an emergency.

I don't take pleasure in saying that, it's just the plain spoken truth. Rely on someone else and you will get what you deserve. Rely on Ahnold educating your children and.... well you get the picture. Rely on the mayor of NO saving your bacon, and all I can say is, "I hope you're a good swimmer."

It wasn't until a day later that the floods occured and the real disaster happened.

the hurricane went through sunday night/early monday morning. the 17th street canal leveee breached late monday morning.

thanks for playing. dumbass.

... when they start finding all the dead and figure out how many died waiting for help the verdict will be clearly too, little too late. If you are satisfied with this response after all we've supposedly done to shore up for national crisis you have extremely low expectations.

This ultimately will be one of the primary metric that is used to evaluate the relief effort. It will not change much of the debate it will just switch to argument as to what number is "acceptable".

As morbid as it may sound, someone will have to ultimately determine that number.

I could not find the current count for NO but many predictions have the toll to be around 10K.

If the final number is much lower, will that change any opinions? If it is much higher will it change any?

atpjunkie; what is a number that could possibly have you look back and say maybe the relief was not as bad as you thought?

You knows what's even funnier? I haven't heard one lick of what they have had to say. I guess great minds do think alike. Maybe I should have my own show too! LOL!!!

yeah, but you've probably had your nose glued to powerline for the last week, right? :rolleyes:

Please explain why the mayor sent tens of thousands of people to a place where they had no supply of food and water. Ten we could move the discussion forward :)

cause the place wasn't expected to be a long-term shelter. it was used as a last ditch safe house for those who couldn't evacuate, and they were expected to be evacuated from it within a day or so of the storm passing. and they would have been, if not for the criminally slow response from the feds. no one planned for them to be left there for five days.

and even if they did have to remain there, why no airlifts of food and water? for five days. you explain that one.

"[I]t allowed FEMA to come in here early. We've set the stage for a lot of help for evacuation help, and the federal government is standing by.

so why did it take them til friday to get there?

again, read the National response Plan here:

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf

a plan drawn up by this administration(so they can't say they weren't familiar with it, or it was some left-over remnant from another administration), and implemented by this administration, that allows the federal government to respond to natural disasters any time and any way they deem necessary, without needing an invite or a formal request from state and local governments, and without needing the "proper paperwork" in place before doing so.

if bush wanted to respond to this crisis any way and any time, he could have done so. but instead, he chose to remain on vacation til wednesday, two days after the hurricane hit. he chose to begin meetings of his hurricane response task force that day, two days after the hurricane struck. they didn't declare this an "Incident of National Significance" until thursday. cheney chose to stay on vacation til saturday, almost a week after the hurricane hit. rummy went to a Padres game monday night. condi chose to go on vacation the tuesday after the hurricane hit.

meanwhile, the state and local officials were on site, doing the best they could under trying circumstances to try to save people. say what you will about their performance, but at least they were there. with no help from the federal government. no help for five days, five days in which people were without food, without water, and dying.

you tell me whose response was inadequate.

the ones who died in the initial flooding I understand. many of those who died from starvation, dehydration, exposure etc... I don't not with our HS Budget. Sad thing right now is most of the emphasis is on NO and I'm sure there are still folks waiting on aid in more remote areas.

Why should the feds;
1 spend money on a problem that NO and LA do not? The state of LA hasn't done any repairs themselves.
2. the levees and in particular the pumping system worsen the problem of a city that sinks one inch per year. There may be no fix for this.
3. the city of NO and the state of LA have allowed development along the delta. This has not only contributed to the problem, they should not have allowed it until there was some fix for the levees and the sinking problem.
4. the levees have never been funded by congress and this is not up to the president. The levees were shot down by Clinton as well as GB1 and probably as far back as FDR.
5. the levee that failed was refurbished.

cuts have come at local, and state levels by Cons nationwide. Started here in CA with Prop 13, it's fallout, we went from #1 in the nation to basement dwellers. pattern has been repeated throughout the nation, then we had the lottery which was supposed to supplement the tax base for Ed but what they did was replaced the tax base so net gain was about zero. then Ahnold says he's big on education and then cuts programs, doesn't fund and then blames the teachers who are paying out of their own tight pockets for their students supplies. Then we have NCLB completely unfunded thats only true success story is as a recruiting tool.

So what you are saying is that you are fully aware of all the cuts that the bad, bad cons are making. So you must be stepping things up in your own life to be prepared. Now if you just step it up to cover 20,000 of your closest friends all will be good in the world.

Your tantrum is not unlike the common bs that is an ugly part of the cycling community. Every cyclist knows full well the ego bruises suffered daily at the hands of the careless driver. I had a run-in with a shirtless motorcyle punk this weekend that I.... Anyway, If I had a nickle for everytime I've heard a fellow cyclist say in that justified by law tone, "well i'd sue their @ss if they hit me, " I'd have a big bag of nickles. You know what? Maybe that cyclist could sue, maybe it was the fault of the driver. So what, you want to be the guy in the courtroom in a wheelchair? Personally, I don't give a rat's behind who's got the right of way. I just want to pull into my drive way in one peice after each ride.

If blame was the answer, life would be alot simpler. It's not the answer. The answer is to take care of yourself, because you are the most important person to you. That's what makes the market system work. That was the most important discovery of the enlightenment.

The fact is there's always gonna be a certain percentage of the population that for one reason or another has to be taken care of. But don't expect that care to be worth much. In order for that care to be worthy of our collective esteem, the cost would be higher than people like you and me would be willing to pay, becuase at some point even the most left leaning will start protesting the amount of taxes the government takes from the productive element of our society.

But don't let my racist, neocon, medevil mentality dissaude you, Go ahead. Keep making every excuse under the sun for why the entitlement system doesn't work. Or should work, or whatever it is you seem to be arguing for. Your lines of reason jump thru so many hoops I have a hard time following. I think you should keep being do gooder. It gives you the moral high ground in a hypocritacal and perverted way, but you should know that you are only fooling two types of people. The first of course is yourself. The second type is the unfortunate welfare beneficiary that is so ignorant they don't even know they are being lied to by those so desperate to be elected that they'd promise anything.

The do-gooder is a particularly dangerous individual for any society. Their failure to realize that their outlook on life only serves to soothe their own selves, while their false sentiments and actions rob the objects of their pity the very motivation necessary to change for the better.

Keep it up do-gooder. Keep telling the needy that their only salvation is a bigger handout. Keep telling the least sophistacted among us that their lack will be asuaged if they simply demand a bigger hand out instead of pulling themselves up. Don't worry about it though. I mean what's the harm. You'll feel better becuase you gave them hope. Even if you can't deliver.

I'm not blaming anyone for being a do-gooder. Hell, we're all doing the best we can. We're all doing the best that our nature and conditioning will allow. I just think it's best that some people are finally educated about the damage that can be caused by their misguided good intentions. Maybe if someone would have taken the same care in the early 20th century, the eugenics movement wouldn't have grown into the holocaust.

Next time you start feelig holier than thou read my signature quote at the bottom of my posts. Remember, you're making a difference.

rufus the floods came on Tuesday. I saw helecopters on a news report, dropping food and supplies at the Dome on Wednesday. Then they started shooting at the helicopters and the helicopters stopped.

The mayor had no real plan. He was winging it. He put peoples lives in jeopardy. Also, there have been claims of rapes, murders and people laying all over the place at the Dome starving, yet there are no substantiated reports of such. Additionally, even though the mayor is a jackass, he did tell people to bring food and water for a few days stay at the Dome. You can check that for yourself. I don't have time to waste on someone who has convicted before the facts are out.

Ya know, I too got a bee in my bonnet, just the other day. I stopped my ride as soon as it was safe, and whipped my helmet off to the bee could escape. I didn't get stung and the bee went on it's merry way and so did I.

I didn't know education was an 'entitlement program'

calling something a tantrum, when it is not is baseless ad hom and clearly shows the desperation of someone without an arguement. while I agree there are always people who are going to need a handout I don't agree that it's our wealthiest 1-2%. the estate tax cut coming up will only affect them and the $ lost (like the money lost under W's cuts during a war) could have paid for many of these projects we could use right about now. so why do they get to skate, look there is more welfare flowing up right now then down so I just really can't bleed for the Ken Lays right now when I see things like H.S. failing to the umpteenth level.

yeah tough being a do gooder, much easier being a selfish white guy whose never known that taking care of yourself to some folks means robbing and looting. your social darwinist worldview credibility flew out the window about the same time as the "Gospel of Wealth".
tossing more $ isn't the issue I agree, but programs like workfare (one of Kemps go to ideas) were tossed which put more low income part time moms on full unemployment. They got more services and such being unemployed once the cuts happened so instead of integrating them back into the workforce we put them right back into welfare. Spend some time in a low income area, maybe do some volunteer work at a school and see what their bootstraps, or lack thereof look like before you opine from such callous, pompous ignorance.

your ideas are so black and white and simplistic it shows a total lack of understanding of any depth beyond a bumpersticker, cliff note RTP ism. Yes, I'm robbing them of their motivation like I'm emboldening the enemy. I'm sure starvation and no job opportunities are motivation enough afterall they are just lazy right?
I'll keep being a do-gooder, you keep being the ignorant, self congratulating, self serving, bigot we've come to know. and if you happen to appear in an obituary as the victim of a robbery I won't shed a tear knowing your assailant was 'just taking care of his' and you'd understand.
You don't think I understand the Sisuphysian Task I undertake? Sorry, my parents raised me to care about folks, especially the less fortunate. I don't know where they got that idea, some dumb jerk named Jesus I guess.

rufus the floods came on Tuesday. I saw helecopters on a news report, dropping food and supplies at the Dome on Wednesday. Then they started shooting at the helicopters and the helicopters stopped.

The mayor had no real plan. He was winging it. He put peoples lives in jeopardy. Also, there have been claims of rapes, murders and people laying all over the place at the Dome starving, yet there are no substantiated reports of such. Additionally, even though the mayor is a jackass, he did tell people to bring food and water for a few days stay at the Dome. You can check that for yourself. I don't have time to waste on someone who has convicted before the facts are out.

the levee breached monday. you ought to check your facts out.

food for a day or two. not five.

and if there had been a federal response with enough national guard, there wouldn't have been people shooting. just as with iraq, response too late, too few boots on the ground, and violence and looting ensues.

Ya know, I too got a bee in my bonnet, just the other day. I stopped my ride as soon as it was safe, and whipped my helmet off to the bee could escape. I didn't get stung and the bee went on it's merry way and so did I.

this weekend I had a bee bounce off my shoulder and land in my wide open jersey. The bee must have crawled under my hrm strap where it stung me. I grabbed the strap and pulled to the side of the road. I got back on my ride and did my last ten minute zone 5 interval of the day.

Now that we are done telling our stories about bees, lets stop bullsh@tting each other and face life as it really is. You are either responsible for yourself or you are not. But of course there is only one real truth. You are the sole/soul entitiy responslibe for your person, because if you are not responsible for yourself than it is not your life, which is absurd.

Government has it's place, but surely it has it's limitations. The person on the ground is the best person to effect the necessary action to solve the problem. Wouldn't you agree?

Had I chosen to wait on the side of the road for uncle sam to remove that bee from my HRM strap I would have been waiting a very long time. One dead bee, one daddy home for barbeque, no expense to the tax payer is okay with me. All in all, I'd day it was a good day, even though I've got a big red whole in the middle of my body. Sh@t happens!

but there are 250,000 K refugees in Texas alone right now. regardless, so where do you bus 100,000 K people? and where do you get the drivers? if you get 60 a busload that's 1667 buses and drivers. you wouldn't be able to do multiple runs unless you just dropped them on the side of the highway.
Where do you get the drivers!? You stand up and say "Who here can drive?" that's how. This wasn't a normal situation. The choices were drive the bus or die. I've never driven a bus before in my life but I guarantee you I could if my life or my family's lives depended upon it. You try and you do whatever it takes and you get it done. You don't cry out for help and then shrug your shoulders and say 'there was nothing I could do' when it doesn't come the way you wanted it to. You just do what needs to be done with whatever resources you can bring to bear.

If dropping them on the side of the highway a couple hundred miles north meant that they didn't drown or starve that would be a good thing even though they may have gotten a little wet. The key is to get them out of harm's way. That was the job of the mayor and governor. FEMAs job was to take it from there and take care of the people once they had been evac'd and then help with the cleanup and rebuild.

I didn't know education was an 'entitlement program'

calling something a tantrum, when it is not is baseless ad hom and clearly shows the desperation of someone without an arguement. while I agree there are always people who are going to need a handout I don't agree that it's our wealthiest 1-2%. the estate tax cut coming up will only affect them and the $ lost (like the money lost under W's cuts during a war) could have paid for many of these projects we could use right about now. so why do they get to skate, look there is more welfare flowing up right now then down so I just really can't bleed for the Ken Lays right now when I see things like H.S. failing to the umpteenth level.

yeah tough being a do gooder, much easier being a selfish white guy whose never known that taking care of yourself to some folks means robbing and looting. your social darwinist worldview credibility flew out the window about the same time as the "Gospel of Wealth".
tossing more $ isn't the issue I agree, but programs like workfare (one of Kemps go to ideas) were tossed which put more low income part time moms on full unemployment. They got more services and such being unemployed once the cuts happened so instead of integrating them back into the workforce we put them right back into welfare. Spend some time in a low income area, maybe do some volunteer work at a school and see what their bootstraps, or lack thereof look like before you opine from such callous, pompous ignorance.

your ideas are so black and white and simplistic it shows a total lack of understanding of any depth beyond a bumpersticker, cliff note RTP ism. Yes, I'm robbing them of their motivation like I'm emboldening the enemy. I'm sure starvation and no job opportunities are motivation enough afterall they are just lazy right?
I'll keep being a do-gooder, you keep being the ignorant, self congratulating, self serving, bigot we've come to know. and if you happen to appear in an obituary as the victim of a robbery I won't shed a tear knowing your assailant was 'just taking care of his' and you'd understand.
You don't think I understand the Sisuphysian Task I undertake? Sorry, my parents raised me to care about folks, especially the less fortunate. I don't know where they got that idea, some dumb jerk named Jesus I guess.

... I really don't like it when this board becomes a tit for tat affair. Especially when I am directly involved. Having written that, I feel that my previous words are sufficient response to your words above. I have provided those words below for your review.

<<"or whatever it is you seem to be arguing for. Your lines of reason jump thru so many hoops I have a hard time following.">>

But, what has been said before has been said and we need to move on. I only mentioned it to remind you that much of this is futile. Let's move onto something more real.

You're from California right, so you've heard something about self healing. Try some deep breathing and meditation. Seriously, stillness is the way. Don't be sorry about your parents. They did the best the could. They did the best that their nature and conditioning would allow. Just like you are doing. Just like I'm doing now. ATP, trust that your folks did really wel. You're doing well. You're engagin in an activity to fill in the inevitable blanks in your upbringing by participating in a public discourse where we all grow. Can you imagine anything better? This is not a competition. It's a growth experience. Jesus would approve.

Just remember to keep that growth geared toward yourself first before you race out and attempt to save the world. We must put on our own oxygen masks before we can help the others seated next to us. Time allows for everybody to be saved.

Sincerely

Well it seems we agree on some things. I am actually quite surprised by your stance. It is unfortunate, and not what one likes to do in times of crisis, but if blame for this must rest with someone or some entity, it is the mayor and governor. They really did not react well; did not have a good plan in place; and did not act in a timely manner. I am sure FEMA was not perfect, but they probably acted according to strict directives that have been in place for a long time. It is just unimaginable that NO and LA were so unprepared for something they have talked about for a really long time. One would think they had even rehearsed this event for it's inevitability.

Ya know, I too got a bee in my bonnet, just the other day. I stopped my ride as soon as it was safe, and whipped my helmet off to the bee could escape. I didn't get stung and the bee went on it's merry way and so did I.

I think I saw that happen. Were you on a Cdale? You know, right after you left a small child was riding down that same street and that same MF bee landed on him. It scared him so bad that he swerved into the street and got hit by a car. Killed him and he was only 8 y/o.

Maybe if you hadn't been so compassionate to the bee the kid would still be alive

Well it seems we agree on some things. I am actually quite surprised by your stance. It is unfortunate, and not what one likes to do in times of crisis, but if blame for this must rest with someone or some entity, it is the mayor and governor. They really did not react well; did not have a good plan in place; and did not act in a timely manner. I am sure FEMA was not perfect, but they probably acted according to strict directives that have been in place for a long time. It is just unimaginable that NO and LA were so unprepared for something they have talked about for a really long time. One would think they had even rehearsed this event for it's inevitability.
Not liking the war and, consequently, Bush doesn't change the fact that I'm a conservative in the traditional sense. Remove the war from the mix and we'd agree on much, I think.

Every time my wife and I see the mayor of NO on the news he's pointing fingers and shirking responsibility for the welfare of the people of the city. He did the least for the people who needed him the most.

The mayor had no real plan. He was winging it. He put peoples lives in jeopardy. Also, there have been claims of rapes, murders and people laying all over the place at the Dome starving, yet there are no substantiated reports of such. Additionally, even though the mayor is a jackass, he did tell people to bring food and water for a few days stay at the Dome. You can check that for yourself. I don't have time to waste on someone who has convicted before the facts are out.

Steamy please go easy on Mayor Nagin. He is a Bush supporter. I read in the Los Angeles Times this past weekend that he endorsed GWB in the last election.

many of those who died from starvation, dehydration, exposure etc...

And this is where I have to discount every word that you write. No one has died from starvation and no one but the already criminally insane have had to resort to canabalism as was claimed on DAY 4 by the the left.

I think I saw that happen. Were you on a Cdale? You know, right after you left a small child was riding down that same street and that same MF bee landed on him. It scared him so bad that he swerved into the street and got hit by a car. Killed him and he was only 8 y/o.

Maybe if you hadn't been so compassionate to the bee the kid would still be alive
Well it's a good thing that afterwards-you went out and destroyed one of the neighboring hives (that may or may not have had anything todowith it) in retaliation....otherwise all those now homeless bees wouldn't have had any reason to sting anyone/thing in sight, including all the old/young denizens of the nearby town.

Well it's a good thing that afterwards-you went out and destroyed one of the neighboring hives (that may or may not have had anything todowith it) in retaliation....otherwise all those now homeless bees wouldn't have had any reason to sting anyone/thing in sight, including all the old/young denizens of the nearby town.

We're not still talking bees are we?

...the same "boondoggle" that the NYT claimed in it pages of all that's fit to print a mere 5 months ago?

Government in the US can only work as planned if the local governments do there part. That is just a fact. Here's another fact. Don't count on the government when the chips are down. YOU are the first responder in the event of an emergency.

I don't take pleasure in saying that, it's just the plain spoken truth. Rely on someone else and you will get what you deserve. Rely on Ahnold educating your children and.... well you get the picture. Rely on the mayor of NO saving your bacon, and all I can say is, "I hope you're a good swimmer."

Hey Jbrumm, why are you a racist? What, no racist comments today?

We're not still talking bees are we?
D@m well we are :rolleyes:

-sides, I **always** talk about bees @ 6am :rolleyes:

be aware that you are arguing with a man who quotes himself in his forum signature.

Almost as scary is the fact that he considers Rush a "great mind" These days the only advice I would trust from from Limbaugh is where I could get my hands on some good drugs.....

anyone still want to claim that the feds are doing everything they can? that it was the locals who dropped the ball?

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197

As New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta.
Many of the firefighters, assembled from Utah and throughout the United States by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, thought they were going to be deployed as emergency workers.
Instead, they have learned they are going to be community-relations officers for FEMA, shuffled throughout the Gulf Coast region to disseminate fliers and a phone number: 1-800-621-FEMA.

But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.

president potemkin. helping people isn't the priority. making yourself look good on tv is all that matters to this administration.

and there's more:

pilots reprimanded for saving civilians (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national/nationalspecial/07navy.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1126094453-FJJw3H6hKMC3bgtfqBjTcg&pagewanted=print)

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Commander Holdener said. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do right now and that is not the priority."

We're not still talking bees are we?
A bee was a reference to your accelerated verbage over matters tangential.

BTW: I sadly had to destroy a hive in my yard 6 mos ago. Sevin dust is stunningly effective! I had tried water from a hose, then wasp foam & crack-sealing foam to suffocate them. Buggers dug their way out. Sevin was the last resort. The hive was in a hole in the side of a slope in the backyard, way too close to the kids playstructure/fort.

I now understand why Sevin is NOT recomended for bees.

We must hold hope that the mission is successful on a measurable level. Hopefully in as short a span of time as possible.
Kinda hard to do considering that nobody in the administration has bothered to define what the actual mission's goals are and what goalposts we have to cross to get there.

I don't like the war. I don't think anyone likes war. We have to send good people to foreign lands and place them in harms way. No one wants that. No matter what most of the real Bush haters have to say, I doubt Bush likes or wanted that. I think their cynicism clouds their thoughts. They make statements that he started a war for oil, for oil companies, to make his friends rich, to make himself rich and for Halliburton. I think that is a pretty derisive position to take.

The merits of the war, if any, won't be known possibly for decades. We know what the encumbrances are up front; the loss of life and limb; the disarray; the separation of family members for long periods of time; the test of alliances; the monetary cost; and much more. However a decision was made. It was voted upon based on an assemblage of knowledge and intelligence gathering that accumulated over at least a decade.

All I can hope to expect from it is what has been postulated by the president and many other members of our legislature; that from the efforts of our men and women prosecuting it, the people of Iraq and the region of the ME will see the benefits and virtue of living in peace, freedom and prosperity. There are some signs that it may indeed be attainable. The opening of Libya's gates to outside inspection. The withdrawal of Israeli settlements from the Gaza. The withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon.

Of course all of this is not taking place without a cost and without setbacks. However we are there. We must hold hope that the mission is successful on a measurable level. Hopefully in as short a span of time as possible. To constantly detract from it by slandering the president, the military and the constant second guessing, is not helpful or productive. I am not suggesting that this president or any president be given carte blanche, but constructive criticism, without the partisan ankle biting, would probably do more justice to the cause, which I believe is in most people best interests - eventual peace in the ME and the reduction of extremist terrorism.

I don't like the war. I don't think anyone likes war. We have to send good people to foreign lands and place them in harms way. No one wants that. No matter what most of the real Bush haters have to say, I doubt Bush likes or wanted that. I think their cynicism clouds their thoughts. They make statements that he started a war for oil, for oil companies, to make his friends rich, to make himself rich and for Halliburton. I think that is a pretty derisive position to take.

The merits of the war, if any, won't be known possibly for decades. We know what the encumbrances are up front; the loss of life and limb; the disarray; the separation of family members for long periods of time; the test of alliances; the monetary cost; and much more. However a decision was made. It was voted upon based on an assemblage of knowledge and intelligence gathering that accumulated over at least a decade.

All I can hope to expect from it is what has been postulated by the president and many other members of our legislature; that from the efforts of our men and women prosecuting it, the people of Iraq and the region of the ME will see the benefits and virtue of living in peace, freedom and prosperity. There are some signs that it may indeed be attainable. The opening of Libya's gates to outside inspection. The withdrawal of Israeli settlements from the Gaza. The withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon.

Of course all of this is not taking place without a cost and without setbacks. However we are there. We must hold hope that the mission is successful on a measurable level. Hopefully in as short a span of time as possible. To constantly detract from it by slandering the president, the military and the constant second guessing, is not helpful or productive. I am not suggesting that this president or any president be given carte blanche, but constructive criticism, without the partisan ankle biting, would probably do more justice to the cause, which I believe is in most people best interests - eventual peace in the ME and the reduction of extremist terrorism.
No comment Steam---we've said it all B4.

If it only took 40 years to get Israel to remove it's illeagal settlements...we should have peace/democracy for all (males) in the ME by say....hmmm....by the time the sun explodes.:rolleyes:

I've often said here that I agree that we need to stabilize that region; it's our primary energy source. My disagreement is in the methods used and the enormous costs involved (human and monetary) as well as the immediate necessity for a shooting war and protracted o