Data Overload - Core dumped!

I'm in bike hunting mode and have hit the data wall. Lot's of reading, browsing and bike shop visiting in the past 4 weeks. I'm not sure if I'm closer to a decision, but I am getting educated. I've ridden several bikes, although only a few back-to-back.

I'm 44, male, 6'1", 200 lbs. I've cycled much of my life but I stepped away from road riding about 12 years ago. I've been mountain biking 4-5 years, fairly seriously the last 2. I'd been thinking about getting back into road riding for focused fitness work and cross training, so I brought my 1984 Bianchi out of retirement. I've been doing 25 mile rides with a group and 40 mile rides solo. I anticipate 60-70 mile rides 1x / month and a century or two every year. The area I ride offers plenty of climbing opportunities (for me). Most of the loops are at least 1000' to 2000' every 10 miles.

The Bianchi is a very nice steel bike, but the vintage Campy drivetrain (52/42 up front, 12-26 six cogs in back) is killing my knees. I can climb all day long on my Turner mtb and come home pain free. Climbing on the Bianchi sends me hunting for ibuprofen when I get home. My right knee has been worked on 3x in the past. It's been great for a long time and I hope to keep it that way. I'm generally fine on the flats and can keep up with the group, but I can't keep my cadence up on significant climbs which kills the knees and slows me down. I first considered attempting to change the Bianchi drivetrain, but my research leads me to believe it would be a poor use of my money - that I would be better putting the $ into a new bike.

So I've been hunting... I'm hoping to get a bike that is comfortable yet quick. One that I can keep up with the group on and still use for centuries without getting too beat up. I've been leaning towards a carbon frame solution. I'd consider a Ti bike, but I can't imagine finding one at the pricepoint I'm trying to hit.

I'm really trying to stay under $2200 if possible.

I've been leaning towards a Specialized Roubaix. I've tried the Trek Pilot, the Trek 5200, a Scott CR1 and a Klein Reve. Honestly, I think I could make any of these bikes work as long as they are fit properly. Technology has improved so much over the years that even the more racing geometries seem much more comfortable/efficient than my Bianchi.

I looked at the Scattante CFR yesterday. I didn't have time to take a test ride but I was reasonably impressed and felt that it could be an incredible value. This led me back to RBR for additional reading on other house brand / new players that could be a good value. I've read about Scattante, Leader, Tommaso, etc. and basically I'm now in overload mode.

I was almost ready to buy an '05 Roubaix Elite Triple or Comp Triple. I have found some very good deals on these bikes. My issues with these options are: 9sp not 10sp, low end wheels and 52/42/30 up front instead of the newer 52(or 53)/39/30 which seems much smarter. With a 39 in the middle, I think I'd be able to stay in the middle chainring more often, avoiding the bailout gear. Some say the 39 offers better shifting up front as well.

The '05 Elite is a 105/Ultegra mix. The price is so good that I could buy the Elite and still have enough to buy some Ksyrium SLs (or???) and stay under my pricepoint. I'm on the fence about 9sp vs 10sp. I'd much rather have 10sp for future proofing and changing the 52/42/30 to a 52/39/30 appears impractical with the 9sp (2 new chainrings & a FD, possibly a chain).

The '05 Comp is all Ultegra 9sp with Dura-Ace RD, Ksyrium Equipe wheels. I like the color better and appreciate the Ultegra components. It's under the pricepoint as well, but I wouldn't have anything left over for better wheels or changing the chainrings.

I've also found an '06 Roubaix Expert. This seems like the closest solution, but is a bit above what I had planned to spend. It's 10sp Ultegra Triple with 53/39/30. The wheels are Shimano Ultegra wheels, WHR600s. I think these would be pretty good wheels, but I can't find good data on them. This would be about $100-$150 above my pricepoint.

Another option would be to wait until the Roubaix ships with 10sp 105. The Specialized website now shows the '06 Elite and '06 Comp. The Elite claims to be 9sp 105 and the Comp claims 10sp 105/Ultegra mix. Not sure if the 10sp 105 will ship anytime soon...

I'm leaning highly towards picking up the '05 Elite, living with the 9sp drivetrain and picking up a good set of wheels (which ones?). But the value hunter in me has become intrigued by the likes of the Scattante, Leader, etc. and I'm sorely tempted to pony up for the '06 Roubaix Expert, especially if the wheels are adequate.

I'd be grateful for any comments on the above, and anyone willing to tackle the "What would you buy with $2200?" question is heartily invited to chime in. Thanks for reading. It's been both cathartic and valuable to get this out. Hopefully I'll find the right solution before too much exposure to the bling leads me to start hunting for a Moots Vamoots...

Best,

Steve

I too recently got back into cycling after a 15 year hiatus. I picked up from one of the online sellers (I won't name the seller because of distributors to LBS are prevalent here and are paranoid of losing their business) Anyway the bike came with an Ultegra 10 speed system. My old Raleigh Super Course had a 6 speed cassette and I figured what do I need 10 speeds for. I love the 10 speed. It shifts beautifully and and I find I don't have to change the front chainring (double) nearly as often as I used too. No matter what you are in up front you have in effect at least 8 speeds to choose from and in most cases will suffice..

I too recently got back into cycling after a 15 year hiatus. I picked up from one of the online sellers (I won't name the seller because of distributors to LBS are prevalent here and are paranoid of losing their business) Anyway the bike came with an Ultegra 10 speed system. My old Raleigh Super Course had a 6 speed cassette and I figured what do I need 10 speeds for. I love the 10 speed. It shifts beautifully and and I find I don't have to change the front chainring (double) nearly as often as I used too. No matter what you are in up front you have in effect at least 8 speeds to choose from and in most cases will suffice..

9 speed vs 10 speed(or 6,7 or 8 for that matter). 10 speed does not give you wider range of gears. All it gives you is more choices within a given range. If the rear cassette is 12 x 26, it makes no difference how many cogs it has. The only thing 10 speed will give you is more cogs within the 12-26 range.

As for 10 vs 9 speed, I wouldn't worry about using 9 speed. Cassettes and other parts will be availible for years. Shimano designs their components to be backwards compatible so if/when your 9 speed wears out, all 10 speed parts(except hubs) will work with 9 speed cassettes.....

I am in exactly your same spot. 6' 2" 200lbs. years of hardcore mountain biking. I ride an Intense 5.5 on the dirt so I am used to a good ride. My wife has pulled me into road riding which I am really loving. My 30 year old Windsor Carrera (upgraded to 6 spd Dura Ace) just isn't cutting it as much as we are riding. I have ridden the Trek 5200, Specialized Roubaix comp and Litespeed Solano. I really like the Litespeed alot, but it is priced at $2500 and I was really hoping to stay right at $2000-$2200. I did talk to the bike shop about trading out the wheels on the Roubaix comp and that might be an option for you. It seems like the wheels on the comp come up all the time as holding that bike back. At least if you read the reviews. I don't know how true it is, but I noticed the 9spd on the Roubaix taking more trimming of the front deraileuer, than the 10spd on the Litespeed. I don't know if this was just an adjustment thing but one of the shop guys said the narrower 10spd chain allows for a little less fiddling. I am seriously considering going for the Roubaix with the double instead of the triple just so I don't have to pay so much attention to shifting. I am going to watch this post closely and see what ever recomendations you get. The other problem I have is that I really want to buy from our local bike shop, but I also want to get the best bike for me. Life is so full of difficult choices ; )

Craig

I'd get a Torelli countach http://torelli.com/torelli/countach.html put whatever you can for parts on it now...and upgrade those later. These frames are SWEET.

9 speed vs 10 speed(or 6,7 or 8 for that matter). 10 speed does not give you wider range of gears. All it gives you is more choices within a given range. If the rear cassette is 12 x 26, it makes no difference how many cogs it has. The only thing 10 speed will give you is more cogs within the 12-26 range.

Thanks for the reply Dave! I'm "up to speed" on cassette range. I've been focused on heart rate training for the last year and I've found the additional cogs can be quite handy when trying for a specific heart rate / range at a particular cadence, especially with changing terrain. I'm happy enough with 9sp in this regard.

As for 10 vs 9 speed, I wouldn't worry about using 9 speed. Cassettes and other parts will be availible for years. Shimano designs their components to be backwards compatible so if/when your 9 speed wears out, all 10 speed parts(except hubs) will work with 9 speed cassettes.....

This is the area that concerns me. I am generally happy with 9sp. The challenge is that once you've committed to 9sp, it seems to me that you are pretty much stuck there. I am not completely convinced about the backwards compatibility of 10sp parts. As I understand it, the inside dimension of the chain is the same but the chain width is narrower due to thinner sides and shorter pins. I don't know a lot about ramping & pinning, but the narrower 10sp chain might not shift properly/well on 9sp cluster or front chainrings since the outside dimension is different.

I can't imagine 9sp levers being compatible with 10sp and I'd worry about 10sp levers with 9sp. It may be possible, perhaps through an alternate cable routing into the rear derailleur, but it would somehow have to handle the different cog spacing.

There are two issues that have come up for me in my searching:

I think I would prefer a 52/39/30 chainring setup over the 52/42/30. Looking into making the change makes me a bit nervous. On the FSA triple crank that comes on the Roubaix I would have to change both the middle and large rings (to 39/53) and possibly change the FD. The ramping & pinning is different. I am not certain, but I believe that I would have to switch to a 10sp chain as well. Another solution would be to replace the crank with a Dura-Ace 9sp triple that already has the 39 in the middle ring. Not sure about the FD in this situation.

Another thing that made me pause came while researching wheels. Among the wheels I've considered are dura-ace hubs with Mavic Open Pro rims. There are a number of good deals on the dura-ace 7800 version but I noticed that they claim to be 10sp only. I did not notice anyone that carried the 7700 version on my first level of searching. I did see a number of other wheels that claimed to be 10sp only as well. Certainly there are lots of solutions to this issue and probably will be for many years. But it made me stop and think about it - probably what the folks designing & managing the marketing & distribution programs for 10sp gear want to hear!

I guess to sum up my situation, I'd be happy with 9sp, happier if I could cheaply switch to a 39 ring in the middle. 10sp seems a better long term solution and addresses all of my concerns except pricepoint! In the Roubaix lineup, 10sp demands a pretty large premium.

Many Thanks for the input!

I'm 40, 250lbs


9 spd/10 spd doesn't matter. Get a triple. Triple allows for even smaller ring than a compact in case you need it

If you want Ti get Ti. Flyte (aka Airborne) has two option in your price range.
Defiant (http://www.flyte1.com/soar/janette/store/selector_frames2.asp?package_qty=1&hiddenSku=555&bktyp=2&package_id=06-DEFIANT-105-T) for $1800 with 105 triple

Arsenal (http://www.flyte1.com/soar/janette/store/selector_frames2.asp?package_qty=1&hiddenSku=555&bktyp=2&package_id=06-ARSEN-105-T) for $2100 with 105 triple.

The arsenal is the same as the old Zeppelin and gets very positive reviews. I ride one and love it.

There are other Ti brands you can get in the same price range if you look.

I'm building a CF frame up now so I can't comment on the difference.

Good Luck

This is the area that concerns me. I am generally happy with 9sp. The challenge is that once you've committed to 9sp, it seems to me that you are pretty much stuck there. I am not completely convinced about the backwards compatibility of 10sp parts. As I understand it, the inside dimension of the chain is the same but the chain width is narrower due to thinner sides and shorter pins. I don't know a lot about ramping & pinning, but the narrower 10sp chain might not shift properly/well on 9sp cluster or front chainrings since the outside dimension is different.

I can't imagine 9sp levers being compatible with 10sp and I'd worry about 10sp levers with 9sp. It may be possible, perhaps through an alternate cable routing into the rear derailleur, but it would somehow have to handle the different cog spacing.

There are two issues that have come up for me in my searching:

I think I would prefer a 52/39/30 chainring setup over the 52/42/30. Looking into making the change makes me a bit nervous. On the FSA triple crank that comes on the Roubaix I would have to change both the middle and large rings (to 39/53) and possibly change the FD. The ramping & pinning is different. I am not certain, but I believe that I would have to switch to a 10sp chain as well. Another solution would be to replace the crank with a Dura-Ace 9sp triple that already has the 39 in the middle ring. Not sure about the FD in this situation.

Another thing that made me pause came while researching wheels. Among the wheels I've considered are dura-ace hubs with Mavic Open Pro rims. There are a number of good deals on the dura-ace 7800 version but I noticed that they claim to be 10sp only. I did not notice anyone that carried the 7700 version on my first level of searching. I did see a number of other wheels that claimed to be 10sp only as well. Certainly there are lots of solutions to this issue and probably will be for many years. But it made me stop and think about it - probably what the folks designing & managing the marketing & distribution programs for 10sp gear want to hear!

I guess to sum up my situation, I'd be happy with 9sp, happier if I could cheaply switch to a 39 ring in the middle. 10sp seems a better long term solution and addresses all of my concerns except pricepoint! In the Roubaix lineup, 10sp demands a pretty large premium.

Many Thanks for the input!

10 speed Shimano shifters work great with 9 speed. The rears derailluers have two cable attachment options. The normal cable attachment under the bolt will shift 10 speed. If you attache the cable on top of the bolt, it will shift 9 speed. If you choose, you can run a 9 speed setup with all 10 speed parts except a 9 speed cassette and chain(hubs not included).

10 speed Shimano hubs have deeper splines so they only accept 10 speed cassettes but a 10 speed cassette will fit on either a 9 or 10 speed hub.

If money was on object, I'd go 10 speed. If you are looking to save some money for upgrades, get 9 speed. I wouldn't give the parts availibility issue a second thought, Most of my bikes are Dura Ace 8 speed and I have no problems getting parts...

I am in exactly your same spot. 6' 2" 200lbs. years of hardcore mountain biking. I ride an Intense 5.5 on the dirt so I am used to a good ride. My wife has pulled me into road riding which I am really loving. My 30 year old Windsor Carrera (upgraded to 6 spd Dura Ace) just isn't cutting it as much as we are riding. I have ridden the Trek 5200, Specialized Roubaix comp and Litespeed Solano. I really like the Litespeed alot, but it is priced at $2500 and I was really hoping to stay right at $2000-$2200. I did talk to the bike shop about trading out the wheels on the Roubaix comp and that might be an option for you. It seems like the wheels on the comp come up all the time as holding that bike back. At least if you read the reviews. I don't know how true it is, but I noticed the 9spd on the Roubaix taking more trimming of the front deraileuer, than the 10spd on the Litespeed. I don't know if this was just an adjustment thing but one of the shop guys said the narrower 10spd chain allows for a little less fiddling. I am seriously considering going for the Roubaix with the double instead of the triple just so I don't have to pay so much attention to shifting. I am going to watch this post closely and see what ever recomendations you get. The other problem I have is that I really want to buy from our local bike shop, but I also want to get the best bike for me. Life is so full of difficult choices ; )

Craig

Wow, we really are going through the same process. I'm on a Turner 5-Spot now, used to ride a Santa Cruz Superlight. Absolutely love the 5-Spot!

I've got a reasonably local bike shop that has the Comp in a 58cm and is willing to swap wheels. Trouble is, they also have the '06 expert with 10sp for just a touch more. I just don't know about the Shimano wheelset.

I've heard the same about 9sp triple shifting up front. I've considered compacts, but the smart move for me is to stay with the triple and guard my legs. I plan to be active and healthy for a looong time so I better be smart now. '05 Roubaix Comp double sounds nice but they bump the pricepoint with the Dura-Ace RD.

Understand about the LBS. I really like my LBS. Absolutely excellent MTB shop and they are starting to dabble in road. They just don't stock enough to do lots of part swaps outside of the basic fitting & contact points.

10 speed Shimano shifters work great with 9 speed. The rears derailluers have two cable attachment options. The normal cable attachment under the bolt will shift 10 speed. If you attache the cable on top of the bolt, it will shift 9 speed. [...]



I'd run across a discussion about this on RBR over the past week or so. Pretty cool solution for supporting 9sp with the 10sp shifters. Wouldn't it be nice if the same were true for the 9sp shifters. It's too bad I can't get the bike shop to sell me the 9sp bike and swap out the levers for 10sp at a reasonable price!

I do like the 10sp levers. They feel better under my hands and seem to operate the derailleurs better. The 9sp are no slouches and either lever/shifter is a tremendous step up from what I've been riding with.

I'm leaning towards 9sp and putting the difference in $ into a better set of wheels. Or perhaps I should switch framesets and get both. Then again, if I'd just bump my budget a little bit... Arggggg.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for getting a new bike!

But I am not sure it's the best solution to your knee pain. It just sounds odd that a Bianchi would give you knee pain and a Speciailized wouldn't.

I would make sure to figure out the source of the problem. How does the Bianchi fit? Could it be too big or too small for you? Saddle height not right? Q factor of the cranks? Gear ratio?

I would shop around for some closeouts at this time of year. $2200 could buy you a lot of bike if you know where to look.

I think it would be hard to beat this:

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=34321&CGRFNBR=273&CRPCGNBR=273&CI=1,223,273&TextMode=0

I think it would be hard to beat this:

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=34321&CGRFNBR=273&CRPCGNBR=273&CI=1,223,273&TextMode=0

I'd be wary of this wheelset. Real Designs has a history in the mountain bike world of making rear hubs that frag. Perhaps they have solved that issue over the last few years (the name was bought out - I believe by ABG?).

Jeez! I'm gonna get hammered here for being a cynic --

If you're in your 40's and having surgery on the knees you need to find another sport. Trust me on this one. I have a colleague in his 60's (You're going to be 60 sooner than you want to be.), he used to climb mountains until his knees gave out.

If riding at 40 is grinding up your knees, no "magic bike" is going to bail you out on the knees issue. You keep hammering on the knees, and you're be in a wheelchair, on crutches, in braces by the time you're 50.

That said, you can get yourself a decent bike, triple chainring decent gearing, and probably continue riding. But you need to realize that the half centuries, centuries, and ragged road rides with your buddies are behind you. A couple surgeries on the knees, and your racing days are through.

I can't believe your surgeon hasn't counseled you on this yet.

Finally, if you can't figure out what you need in a bike, you've got no business spending $2,200 on one. For that kind of money, you should be able to specify precisely what you want in equipment. If you can't specify, you've got more money to toss at the question than you have experience.

OK, I'm 57 here. Have been riding, racing since I was 14, back in circa 1962 or somewhere. You give me $2 K for a bike and I can tell you precisely what I want and don't want in equipment.

But in your situation, before I'd buy a bike, I'd sit down and have a really, really extended discussion with my surgeon.

-- Sorry, that's just 20 more years down the road telling you what the road looks like up ahead of you.

It's sacrilege to replace your Bianchi. That bike's a classic son.

Either run a compact or a triple. Campag makes some fine compact cranksets that will work just fine with that bike.

You mentioned Leader. I ride a Leader 735R. I plan on replacing it with a Gunnar Roadie soon. Why? I love the ride of steel and the all aluminium Leader frame beats the snot out of my lower back on longer rides. I wanted a stiff frame...be careful what you wish for. I can't wait to get my new frame and get the parts moved over.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for getting a new bike!

But I am not sure it's the best solution to your knee pain. It just sounds odd that a Bianchi would give you knee pain and a Speciailized wouldn't.

I would make sure to figure out the source of the problem. How does the Bianchi fit? Could it be too big or too small for you? Saddle height not right? Q factor of the cranks? Gear ratio?

I would shop around for some closeouts at this time of year. $2200 could buy you a lot of bike if you know where to look.

Excellent point. It might have been smart for me to provide additional details about the problem. The Bianchi frame fits me fine. I do believe that I could improve my fit on the Bianchi and possibly reduce the knee trouble. The seat is about in the optimum location. The cleats on the shoes I've been using are a tad too far forward. The Q factor is probably a bit narrow. The stem should probably be 5-10cm shorter - I'm not as flexible as I once was so I'm stretching my lower back a lot. I would probably raise the bars 1-2cm as well.

I have continued to make small changes to address these issues, trying to optimize the equipment I have. But I believe my primary problem is the gearing that I have to deal with. Certainly, improving the fit will help. But I think the gearing is an order of magnitude more of a problem. On steeper climbs or lengthy climbs, I cannot keep my cadence up. It drops below 40rpm. My form starts to fail as I try to deal with the higher pressure on the knees and I'm tempted to get out of the saddle, which has always been a wrong move for me, post surgery. The current gearing is 52/42 with a 13-28 in the back. The 28 is too big for the short cage derailleur, so I'm really stuck at 13-24. 42x24 is just not low enough gearing for me.

On my mountain bike, I can keep my cadence up. My 2x/week ride is 2000' in 4.5 miles with the middle third at 18% or more. I'm not the fastest up this section, but I can clean it consistently and my knees never hurt. Another ride I do regularly is about 40 miles and 6500'. I'm tired when finished, but I've never felt like I've done damage to my knees. I do climb in the saddle 95% of the time and of course, my shoes, pedals and position on the bike are different, so it's hard to make a direct comparison. Too me, the gearing seems to make the most difference.

Another reason I suspect the gearing is that I have attempted to gear up on the MTB and let my cadence drop. When I do this, I start feeling my knees hurt.

I didn't go into the details of trying to re-gear the Bianchi, but it got expensive pretty fast and went away from the vintage campy road bike scene as well. To do it right means a new crankset, BB, chain, F & R derailleurs, cluster, wheel / hub and a rear triangle stretch. There were a few ways of approaching a gearing change that involved less $, but they were a bit kludgy and didn't really go the whole way. I can't put a smaller inner chainring on the existing crank - the arms won't accept anything smaller than 42. I could probably put a 26 on the back instead of the 28, but finding a cog has been difficult and 2 teeth is probably not nearly enough. I could potentially change the RD and cluster. Many change to a MTB setup in the back, but it opens up issues with the hub/wheel and frame spacing. Anyhow, everytime I added up the cost I came away feeling that it would be smarter to sell the Bianchi as is and put the $ towards a new bike.

I'm all ears on good deals / end of year sales. I suspect this is an excellent time to be buying and is the reason I've got good pricing on the '05 Roubaix.

Thanks again for the input!

I think it would be hard to beat this:

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=34321&CGRFNBR=273&CRPCGNBR=273&CI=1,223,273&TextMode=0

I'd love to try one of these and imagine that it would be a perfect solution. But I'm not sure I can get a frame size that would work for me. I'm typically a 58-59cm frame. 55 would probably be too small and 61 too large. I should call them and find out more...

Jeez! I'm gonna get hammered here for being a cynic --

If you're in your 40's and having surgery on the knees you need to find another sport. Trust me on this one.



I understand your concern and your caution is appropriate. However, my last knee surgery was an ACL repair in 1985 and my knee is generally in excellent condition. I had my right AC joint (shoulder) rebuilt 2 years ago and had my surgeon evaluate my knee at the time. Despite having no cartilage on the medial side, my knee is in very good shape - alignment is great, spacing is great, movement is great. I have been able to participate in just about any sport I'd like, including skiing, snowboarding, windsurfing, racquetball, mountain biking, backpacking, ... I avoid contact sports, I won't run for fitness (I will as part of a sport), and I'm much more thoughtful about avoiding orthopedic events than I was in my adventurous youth. I will play tennis on occasion, but the hard courts do irritate my knee.

Cycling is one of the activities my surgeons have universally suggested as a good choice, but common sense has always been encouraged.

I do use Glucosamine, which has been a blessing for me.

Finally, if you can't figure out what you need in a bike, you've got no business spending $2,200 on one. For that kind of money, you should be able to specify precisely what you want in equipment. If you can't specify, you've got more money to toss at the question than you have experience.


Well, I'll have to disagree with you here. If I were looking at MTB equipment, I would also know precisely how to spend $2200. Looking at road bikes, I have not been keeping up with road technology over the years, so I am inexperienced with the current gear. However, I tend to buy and hold, and prefer to do the research and choose quality gear that will last a while. Inexperience with current road bikes, yes, absolutely. That's why I've been hunting, researching, RBRing. Inexperience riding, not really. Certainly I am not as experienced as lots of folks on RBR. I've got too many other interests & responsiblities to put that kind of time into one activity. But I have put in plenty of training miles and ridden quite a number of centuries, double centuries, mostly in my teens and twenties.

$2200 used to be an outragious sum of money for a road bike. It's not anymore, but it's enough that it offers a myriad of options. More options mean more decisions / research, which is my current plan of action. I could spend more, but this should be quite enough to get a good bike with Ultegra level equipment. Certainly I'd love to spend less and I may end up doing that, but I'm currently willing to commit this amount to the solution.

Perhaps I'd share your view if I had never been on a bike before.

Imagine how your advice would sound in this stiuation: A pilot asks a group of pilots - "I've got $150,000 to spend on an airplane that can get into dirt strips and carry a load. What airplanes would you consider?"

What would you think if one of the pilots came back and said - "Well, clearly you don't have enough experience. Go buy a cheaper airplane and fly until you can precisely specify what you need."

The pilot's question was completely legit and an excellent use of his resources at hand. The answer offered no value and would be a poor solution to the problem.

Re-reading what I've written, It comes across more "hammering" than I intended. I understand your point & concern entirely, I hope you'll entertain my response without offense as none is intended.

It's sacrilege to replace your Bianchi. That bike's a classic son.

Either run a compact or a triple. Campag makes some fine compact cranksets that will work just fine with that bike.

You mentioned Leader. I ride a Leader 735R. I plan on replacing it with a Gunnar Roadie soon. Why? I love the ride of steel and the all aluminium Leader frame beats the snot out of my lower back on longer rides. I wanted a stiff frame...be careful what you wish for. I can't wait to get my new frame and get the parts moved over.

I have been hoping to find a reasonable cost option for keeping the Bianchi going, I just haven't run into it yet. I have been to 5-6 bike shops with the bike, going over the various options. 2 of the bike shops are big campy shops with lots of NOS. In every case I've thought I could cobble something together that would improve the driveline for less than $400 and pretty soon the details start pushing it well above that, even well above $1000 depending on how thorough a job I want to do. i think the best plan is to keep the Bianchi around for flatter rides, leave it all original, and put the $ into a new stead.

I do like the steel ride. I'm OK on aluminum, but not for the kind of riding I plan to do. I am amazed at CF and I don't have enough experience on TI to state an opinion. I'm leaning towards a CF frame.

Don't ditch the Bianchi--keep an eye on eBay for a used Shimano RSX crank; they were offered in a 110mm BCD configuration that came with 46/36 chainrings. Way cheaper than the current crop of compact cranks, and you can find all sorts of rings to customize your gearing. Bonus--they'll look very appropriate on a vintage bike.

I really like the Litespeed alot, but it is priced at $2500 and I was really hoping to stay right at $2000-$2200. I did talk to the bike shop about trading out the wheels on the Roubaix comp and that might be an option for you. It seems like the wheels on the comp come up all the time as holding that bike back. At least if you read the reviews. I don't know how true it is, but I noticed the 9spd on the Roubaix taking more trimming of the front deraileuer, than the 10spd on the Litespeed. I don't know if this was just an adjustment thing but one of the shop guys said the narrower 10spd chain allows for a little less fiddling. I am seriously considering going for the Roubaix with the double instead of the triple just so I don't have to pay so much attention to shifting. I am going to watch this post closely and see what ever recomendations you get. The other problem I have is that I really want to buy from our local bike shop, but I also want to get the best bike for me. Life is so full of difficult choices ; )

Craig

Just FYI...The Litespeed Solano may be withing your price range. Colorado Cyclist has for $2099. They appear to only have 4 sizes though.

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=34321&CGRFNBR=273&CRPCGNBR=273&CI=1,223,273&TextMode=0

It is almost scary how similar we are...I am trying to find the same size Solano. After riding the Trek 5200 and the Specialized Roubaix comp I hopped on the Litespeed Solano. I got to take it on a 52 mile ride. It was awesome. I just turned 40 so comfort is becoming more important to me. After 3 1/2 hours on the bike I still felt like riding more. The bike I rode was a 57 which is suprisingly big for a 57. It rode just about the same as the XL Specialized which I believe is a 58. I do think a 59 would be perfect for me, but I can't find one to try. I am tempted to just buy a 61 from Colorado Cyclist as it would save me $500 over my LBS, but it is my LBS that let me take their bike on a 50+ mile ride. The 57 is really comfortable, but I really would like to try a 59 before dropping that much cash. At 6' 2" and a 36" inseam I have a hard time believing that the 57 could really be the right size. This is way to hard of a decision, but I guess that is all part of the fun.

Good luck and keep updating on what you decide,
Craig

I too looked at the roubaix line of bikes and then I tried the giant ocr composite series as they had similar geometries. Th ocr 2 has ultegra 10 and you cann also look at the tcr composite line if you want a more racing geometry. The ocr 2 can be found for less than $2000 and the same for the tcr 2. The giant web site can give the full specs. I found that the shimano pedals need to be replaced. This is just more info for your search.

I too looked at the roubaix line of bikes and then I tried the giant ocr composite series as they had similar geometries. Th ocr 2 has ultegra 10 and you cann also look at the tcr composite line if you want a more racing geometry. The ocr 2 can be found for less than $2000 and the same for the tcr 2. The giant web site can give the full specs. I found that the shimano pedals need to be replaced. This is just more info for your search.

I happened to be out hunting on the Giant site last night! Looks like they have some very nice bikes at reasonable pricing. I've been on flyte1.com and rscycle.com as well. Lot's of RBR reading. I've decided that I need to go do a more thorough job test riding bikes. My target is coming more into focus, but there are a few lingering questions about suitable geometries and frame materials. I'm still leaning towards an all CF frame with a geometry more suitable to fast group rides and comfortable centuries. I haven't had enough time on a Ti bike to make a personal comparison, but I like the idea of Ti frames. Aluminum is out. I'm trying to avoid mixed materials. Steel is still possible, but I'd rather try something new this time around.

If I had to buy today, I'd probably go ahead with the excellent deal I have on a 2005 Roubaix Elite. But I can't stop worrying about the 9sp vs 10sp issue, and I prefer the 39 tooth middle chainring of 10sp triple over the 42 that is common in the 9sp.

Many Thanks for your input!

if you REALLY want a new bike, go for it--pick a style (standard, compact), then a material, then a price point--then try bikes and ask opinions

but you can easily put on ultegra or dura ace 9 speed--they are cheap now on ebay
you won't miss the 10th speed--you can vary your cassette or cranks to be hill specific--you really don't need 10 speed--but it is the newest thing.
lots of options--triple, compact, or your baisc 53/39 up front with a larger range in the rear.

for that matter it is almost winter and entire bikes are on ebay cheap--you could get 2 for $2200
maybe if most of your rides are 2hr + you'd really regret being on a heavier old steel--hard to say--i have a 1993 serotta that is heavy, but also comfy--i climb slow(er) on it, but don't really care.

good luck with your choice
since you are a little older and may have some comfort concerns, i'd vote for steel--lots of good light weight steel out there
i like bianchi boron xl, pinarello opera, and kelly: look for dedaccaia zero ht, EOM 16.5, or s3 tubing for the lightest steel frames

anyway, many folks here will offer advice--mine is save your money and go to ebay

I would put some slicks on the turner first. swallow your pride.

maybe even get a second wheelset so you can just swap them out.

Then spend the money on a fitting session aimed at alleviating your knee pain on the bianchi. I have done this, and moving shoe cleats, swapping stems, and moving the seat fore/aft and up and down did wonders. much more so that dura ace components ever will.

You should be able to get the bianchi rolling with lower gears (should the fitting expert deem this neccessary) for a few hundred bucks if you stick to low end stuff. Smaller front chainring, a new longer chain, mountain cassette, and a longer cage rear der if nec. again, swallow your pride.

Once you get it all dialed in pain free and happy, (say 1000 miles later), do any final tweaks by getting a custom steel frame or finding a production frame which just happens to fit perfectly.

But it sounds like you just want money to solve your problem directly through a bike purchase.

I rode with a guy who had plenty of knee problems, he solved it by having a professional fitting that included cleat placement.

What would i buy with $2200 to ensure that the bike was going to work? A custom curtlo built up with centaur, According to the curtlo website this would run you about $2200. and before i did that I would know exactly what i needed by getting a professional fit done so i could send the specs to curtlo to make a beautiful bike out of them.

I would howeverbe inclined to agree with roderash above that you possibly could be spending a lot of money on a bike that you may not get to ride, talk to yoru doctor before dropping a whole lot of money on a bike.

I would put some slicks on the turner first. swallow your pride.
maybe even get a second wheelset so you can just swap them out.

This was my original plan for road riding. I even talked my LBS into teaching my wheel building through duplicating my CK / Mavics for a second set of wheels. It's appealing since I'd only have one bike to store/maintain/manage. The challenge came when trying to keep up with the riders I go out with. Their average speeds were a fair bit higher than I could produce on the mountain bike so I was holding them back.

Then spend the money on a fitting session aimed at alleviating your knee pain on the bianchi. I have done this, and moving shoe cleats, swapping stems, and moving the seat fore/aft and up and down did wonders. much more so that dura ace components ever will.

A fitting session is going to happen regardless of the bike I end up with. My LBS and any others I'd buy from offer pro fitting services. They are free with a new bike. Since I have felt that investing more $ in the Bianchi might be a poor choice, I've held off the fit session until I decide about the bike.

I can't believe that you somehow got the impression that I think Dura Ace would solve my knee problem. I mentioned Dura Ace twice in my posts, once when listing the parts on a bike I was considering (rear derailleur) and once when suggesting a triple crank I might buy for the Bianchi. That crank (7703 9sp) was available for $139+shipping, NIB. I don't need DA equipment, but I wouldn't turn down a good deal either.

I believe that bike fit is the most important, which includes gearing and contact points in my view.

You should be able to get the bianchi rolling with lower gears (should the fitting expert deem this neccessary) for a few hundred bucks if you stick to low end stuff. Smaller front chainring, a new longer chain, mountain cassette, and a longer cage rear der if nec. again, swallow your pride.

Well, I have batted this around with quite a few vintage bike experts and without giving an exhaustive treatise on the options, $300-$400 would probably cover switching to a triple crank without touching the rear of the bike. I would still be using downtube shifters and the existing brakes. To switch shifters to STI or alter the rear increases the amount and if I attempt to go all the way to 9sp (mountain or road), it gets even pricier since I have to change the rear hub and stretch the frame. If I went whole hog with mid-priced components, changed the drivetrain, brakes, shifters and wheels, I could easily spend more than $1200, especially if someone else is doing the wrenching. Yes, I'm sure I can whittle the price down a bit if I hunt parts and do the work myself. That all takes time which is in short supply. I'd rather ride.

The delimma then comes from determining when to cut and run in terms of investing $ in the Bianchi. Perhaps upgrading is the right move. Maybe I should keep it as my flats bike. Maybe I should sell it to a vintage afficianado.

Pride. We all have it don't we? While I truly enjoy nice gear, I have also enjoyed pushing the group of riders from the Bianchi. Nothing like seeing them work real hard on their high end bikes. I can do this until the climbs, so I've found it's best to wear them out on the flats :D

Honestly, I'm primarily interested in long term fitness without destroying my body. I don't give a rip about what gear / gearing I need to do this. But if I can, I'd love to stay fit, ride comfortably, and still be competitive with the group I ride with. If I can do it while enjoying a nice bike, all the better.

Once you get it all dialed in pain free and happy, (say 1000 miles later), do any final tweaks by getting a custom steel frame or finding a production frame which just happens to fit perfectly.

If I've already done a professional fit, and the outcome was a proper fit on my bike, would a new custom steel frame or production frame that fits better really improve my situation? I'd guess that it could improve my performance and comfort a bit, but would it put me in a better physiologically advantageous position over the pro fit?

But it sounds like you just want money to solve your problem directly through a bike purchase.

I can see I've touched a few folks nerves by bringing in a price point. I just thought setting a budget would help focus the discussion as well as keep me under the amount I'm willing to spend. Could I solve my "problem" by spending less money? Of course. I could update the Bianchi or look for a less expensive bike. Bottom line is that it looked to me like a would spend a chunk of change to make the Bianchi work and that I'd crossed a personal threshold of putting good money after bad, that I would be smarter in the long run to invest it in newer bike technology. Is some of the motivation that I'd enjoy a new bike anyhow? Of course. Who wouldn't :)

I rode with a guy who had plenty of knee problems, he solved it by having a professional fitting that included cleat placement.

What would i buy with $2200 to ensure that the bike was going to work? A custom curtlo built up with centaur, According to the curtlo website this would run you about $2200. and before i did that I would know exactly what i needed by getting a professional fit done so i could send the specs to curtlo to make a beautiful bike out of them.

I would howeverbe inclined to agree with roderash above that you possibly could be spending a lot of money on a bike that you may not get to ride, talk to yoru doctor before dropping a whole lot of money on a bike.

Very interesting option! I'll check out the curtlo website.

I have looked at bike fitting as two distinct tasks:

1) Getting your measurements / flexibility / riding needs figured out so you can accurately choose a frame size & style that fits your needs.

2) Working with a professional fitter to fine tune you & your bike by adjusting the saddle position, cleats, stem, brake hoods, bar height, etc.

I have done the first. I have been all over the web checking the various fit methods, read about the 3 styles of bike fitting, and plugged my numbers into a variety if fit calculators and custom bike building tools. The variable I'm most uncomfortable with in this regard is frame geometry. I believe I want a slightly relaxed geometry, a little more comfortable ride, one where my lungs function really well/aren't impeded by too low a position.

The 2nd will have to wait until I have the bike in hand. I have been reading about aspects of the final fit so that I can ask questions and understand what the fitter is striving to achieve. I'm looking forward to getting this done as I think this will really make the difference.

Regarding Dura Ace fixing your knee problem...it just might. Dura Ace cranks (at least the previous versions) had lower q factor than Ultegra and on down, which means your feet are closer together, and in my case anyway it feels a heck of a lot better. Don't know about differences between Campy or other cranks. Ritchey cranks have also been known to have low q factors. Good luck finding any published info, though... Anyway, low q factor cranks combined with pedals with float (I like Speedplay) combined with proper position on the bike, stretching and a good warmup are the best ways to avoid knee issues IMO.

Regarding $2200 bikes I'd second the Curtlo recommendation if you really think you could benefit from a custom frame. If you discover you DON'T need/want custom I'd also look at Gunnar. The Gunnar Sport might be a good choice for you.

http://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php

Yellow Jersey has an upgrade/conversion thing that they do... (http://www.yellowjersey.org/ergokit.html)

I don't know if it would do what you want... a new bike can be a wonderful thing - but if you can get your old bike to fit, this could be a reasonable way to update things

Regarding Dura Ace fixing your knee problem...it just might. Dura Ace cranks (at least the previous versions) had lower q factor than Ultegra and on down, which means your feet are closer together, and in my case anyway it feels a heck of a lot better. Don't know about differences between Campy or other cranks. Ritchey cranks have also been known to have low q factors. Good luck finding any published info, though... Anyway, low q factor cranks combined with pedals with float (I like Speedplay) combined with proper position on the bike, stretching and a good warmup are the best ways to avoid knee issues IMO.

[...]



I suspect that q factor is an issue in my current Bianchi setup. I have not measured it, in fact, I hadn't really even thought about it until I started researching 3-4 weeks ago. I believe the Bianchi q factor is a bit narrower than my mountain bikes and probably most modern road bikes but I could be wrong. I also think my shoes & pedals on the Bianchi are part of the problem. The pedals are ancient Time racing pedals. Supposedly they have a fair amount of float - on par with the middle of the pack float values for modern pedals. In practice, the float range has a lot of resistance, so it rides more like a cleated toeclip. The float range more precisely should be labeled the release angle... For someone with great knees, the resistance during float may not be a big deal, but I suspect it is a part of my problem.

That said, I can generally go out and ride 2 hours on the flats with my Bianchi and come home relatively knee pain free. It's only when I climb that my knee starts to complain loudly, which is why I believe strongly that the gearing is the largest part of the problem.

Thanks for the bike suggestions! I'll check them out...

I suspect that q factor is an issue in my current Bianchi setup. I have not measured it, in fact, I hadn't really even thought about it until I started researching 3-4 weeks ago. I believe the Bianchi q factor is a bit narrower than my mountain bikes and probably most modern road bikes but I could be wrong. I also think my shoes & pedals on the Bianchi are part of the problem. The pedals are ancient Time racing pedals. Supposedly they have a fair amount of float - on par with the middle of the pack float values for modern pedals. In practice, the float range has a lot of resistance, so it rides more like a cleated toeclip. The float range more precisely should be labeled the release angle... For someone with great knees, the resistance during float may not be a big deal, but I suspect it is a part of my problem.

That said, I can generally go out and ride 2 hours on the flats with my Bianchi and come home relatively knee pain free. It's only when I climb that my knee starts to complain loudly, which is why I believe strongly that the gearing is the largest part of the problem.

Thanks for the bike suggestions! I'll check them out...

Yeah, I used to ride Times. Had their first few generations of pedals. The Speedplay float is totally free unrestricted float (and takes a day or two to get used to). Times (at least the older ones) kept wanting to tug you back to a neutral position. It really started to bug me after a while. I briefly had some Ultegra cranks on my winter bike and noticed/measured a huge difference from the Dura Ace and older Record cranks on my other bikes. The mtb doesn't bug me as much cause my seat is about 1.5 cm lower.

Yellow Jersey has an upgrade/conversion thing that they do... (http://www.yellowjersey.org/ergokit.html)

I don't know if it would do what you want... a new bike can be a wonderful thing - but if you can get your old bike to fit, this could be a reasonable way to update things

Great find! Thanks for posting it. I wish I would have found this early on as it would have saved me a lot of research time.

This was exactly the way I was originally heading with the additional plan of a compact or triple crank. Very nice to see it all put together and have some pricing info. You may not have noticed but they listed plenty of options at the bottom.

I'm most likely going to pull the trigger on a new bike. I've had offers in the $500-$600 range for the Bianchi as is. Combining that with what I'd spend to alter it gets me pretty far along towards a new bike.

Still huntiing & thinking. I did a number of test rides over the last two days. Hard not to be excited about the new gear after doing that... I'll try to summarize my test ride thoughts in a few days or so.

All the best!

Yeah, I used to ride Times. Had their first few generations of pedals. The Speedplay float is totally free unrestricted float (and takes a day or two to get used to). Times (at least the older ones) kept wanting to tug you back to a neutral position. It really started to bug me after a while. I briefly had some Ultegra cranks on my winter bike and noticed/measured a huge difference from the Dura Ace and older Record cranks on my other bikes. The mtb doesn't bug me as much cause my seat is about 1.5 cm lower.

I went through a fair number of different pedals on the mountain bike before settling on Crank Brothers Mallets. I used with Times when I first started off road. I loved the pedals but didn't like them for technical riding. I never felt safe using the pedal unclipped. I then used Shimano SPDs that had a clip on one side and a platform on the other. I think the model was a 323 but I may be wrong. These were functionally great for me but a bit heavy. Fast forward 4 years and my upgrade to the Turner - decided to try new pedals. I again started with Time Atac XS carbons, thinking my riding skills/technique had improved enough to stay clipped in through more technical riding. I liked them, but I came to the same conclusion about the small platform size and technical riding - it's like pedaling on a block of ice when unclipped. I then tried the Shimano 545s which I liked, but a friend suggested I try the Mallets. They have been excellent for me. I'll live with the weight penalty.

This may be offensive to some roadies, but I've decided to use SPDs on my road bike. I thought I'd stick with eggbeaters of some sort so that I can use my shoes on either bike. I picked up a set of ss eggbeaters and some candies figuring I'd try them both and stick with my favorite. The stack height is the same, so I may run one of each for the first few weeks! I have been test riding with the eggbeaters. So far I am really impressed.

Pretty soon I'm going to have to peddle some pedals on ebay - my collection is getting out of hand!

MTB pedals on the ROUIBAX?! Proposterous! :mad:

:p
I hope this is only your short term pedal... You don't want to ugly up the bike.

I'm 47, 145lbs, and I've been doing serious rec riding for 3 years (probably will do 6k miles this year). I ride an '04 Roubaix Comp with a 50/36 & 12-27, 9spd ultegra. I live in Norcal where there are some pretty goood climbs. This frame and gearing is working really well for me. It is a comfortable frame for long rides, and it's stiff enough that racers I've met use it for rr. Previously I rode a Lemond Zurich, all Reynolds 853 Pro steel with a 52/42/30 triple. I actually liked the 52/42 due to the closer ratio.

A couple of months ago my Roubaix went back to Specialized for a cablestop repair and I rode my '86 Team Fuji for the month that it was gone. That heavy old steel Fuji actually had a great ride - much like your Bianchi I'm sure - making me think maybe I'd go back to steel one day ... we'll see. It also had a 52/42 with a 12-24 cassette. I rode it in a century and at the end of 100 miles and 5,500 of climbing my knees were hurting, and I still haven't fully recovered. I too am convinced that the gearing was the problem. BTW, I transfered my Speedplays onto the Fuji, so it wasn't the pedals that caused the problem (if you go to cyclenews.com and review their Fitness section you'll see that there is no consensus on float vs. no float and knee problems). The Fuji is now back on the trainer.

I think any of the Roubaix models will work great for the type of riding you are doing. I've never ridden the 10spd, so I can't compare it to the 9spd. If I were buying now I'd probably go for the 10 spd, and use the lesser wheels for winter riding, figuring that by summer '06 you'll be able to spring for a nicer set of wheels... personally I'd go for the K Elites instead of the SL SSC... or you could have Mike Garcia make you a set of custom wheels for about $350-400.

Based on what I've heard I think the Scattante will be too flexy for someone your size, and the Leader will be too stiff for the type of riding you do.

Seems like if you go for the '05 Elite you can upgrade pretty quickly and easily. If you go for the '06 Expert, you pay a small amount more than your target price for a pretty good bike. (FWIW, my buddy broke one of his Alex wheels after 1 year - I don't think anyone's too impressed with those wheels, and I'm happy with the K Equipes - pretty bombproof and good hubs.. my winter wheels). You've no doubt noticed that Specialized has put 50/36 & 12-27 on all the Roubaix doubles for '06. I've found this to be a great combo that would probably work well for you, but if your intuition says go for the triple, then listen to the little voice... always listen to the little voice...